ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 04, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
-
In Dead Beat Harry is saved by Gard, and Marcone. Once in the car Gard tells Marcone "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley". Marcone replied "What is the point of free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?". Gard said "There will be consequences".
Alright so Gard is clearly not speaking off the cuff about intervening. She's being literal. Harry was supposed to die, and they somehow intervened in a way that they should not have. This means they used future knowledge, or even traveled back in time. Please discuss about what you think it means, and what these consequences will be. Could this actually be one of the factors that allows Mirror Mirror? If Harry had died the other version would obviously not be able to summon him. Perhaps alternate Harry will end up in Prime Harry's reality and cause some major damage.
-
In Dead Beat Harry is saved by Gard, and Marcone. Once in the car Gard tells Marcone "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley". Marcone replied "What is the point of free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?". Gard said "There will be consequences".
Alright so Gard is clearly not speaking off the cuff about intervening. She's being literal. Harry was supposed to die, and they somehow intervened in a way that they should not have. This means they used future knowledge, or even traveled back in time. Please discuss about what you think it means, and what these consequences will be. Could this actually be one of the factors that allows Mirror Mirror? If Harry had died the other version would obviously not be able to summon him. Perhaps alternate Harry will end up in Prime Harry's reality and cause some major damage.
There's no time travel involved there. Gard's a valkyrie -- a Norse psychopomp, whose job was to choose the dead.
Ergo, she can sense when people (certain people, at least) are going to die.
-
There's no time travel involved there. Gard's a valkyrie -- a Norse psychopomp, whose job was to choose the dead.
Ergo, she can sense when people (certain people, at least) are going to die.
Anytime you give someone CPR, or emergency surgery you are preventing death. I don't see there being "consequences" for doing something like that. Why would Marcone mention free will, or destiny by simply saving Dresden unless there was something more significant? Why would Jim even drop info like that unless it meant something? Why would Gard see consequences for saving someone when people are saved from death every minute of every day?
-
It's because the knowledge to intervene came from Gard -- a person whose powers are in tune with Fate.
Harry wasn't just going to die. He was fated to die there and then.
-
Hell, Gard was probably there specifically to nab Dresden's soul and shove him in a fridge until Odin needed him.
So yeah, saving Harry probably derailed a bunch of events and even caused a split in the timeline (a new one not related to the MM timeline)
-
The time travel was Kumori, When she save the guy on Whacker she attracted his attention which he focused on Dresden as the solution, ergo saving him with the free will he possessed without violating it in time travel, The indirect fate effect described by Bob for the car.
I know, I know, "but she saved a guy who was going to die!" No.... Future Molly used the same Rag Lady illusion to cause the shoot out death she then saved the guy from, also preserving the momentum behind the original act in her timeline, reviving Harry via necromancy. A guy was brought back via necromancy, just not the same guy.
-
It's because the knowledge to intervene came from Gard -- a person whose powers are in tune with Fate.
Harry wasn't just going to die. He was fated to die there and then.
Ok then you're agreeing with part of what I said: Harry was supposed to die, and they somehow intervened in a way that they should not have. This means they used future knowledge
Gard knew he was supposed to die, Marcone was made aware, Dresden was saved, time line altered.
Makes me wonder if Odin wanted her to tell Marcone because he knows Marcone's character and that he would save Dresden. A chess move that Odin himself couldn't get directly involved but none the less was able to intervene.
-
It is just a point of view. Uriel would have applauded Marcones action, it was a mortal exercising his free will in an important way that changed the stream of time, most people don’t do so as Uriel stated in the warrior.
But Gard represents a different way of looking at things. For her fate is important and it usually leads to problems if you change it, there is a price to pay.
Both views are right but because we identify with Harry we usually only get the first view.
-
A powerful entity (possibly Odin) had decided to kill Harry and arranged by some mean for it to happen in that alley. This is what the Fates or the Norns, whichever Gard gets her info from, detected. Whether Marcone knew or not, his dicision to save Harry defied a powerful entity. Now Marcone has drawn the attention of this entity and there will be consequences from that attention.
-
Ok then you're agreeing with part of what I said: Harry was supposed to die, and they somehow intervened in a way that they should not have. This means they used future knowledge
Gard knew he was supposed to die, Marcone was made aware, Dresden was saved, time line altered.
Yeah, that's what I was saying in the first post. I was only saying there wasn't time travel, specifically.
Makes me wonder if Odin wanted her to tell Marcone because he knows Marcone's character and that he would save Dresden. A chess move that Odin himself couldn't get directly involved but none the less was able to intervene.
I feel like if Odin gave her orders to do so, she wouldn't have been telling Marcone it was a bad idea.
I more got the sense that Marcone was looking for Dresden, and she answered to the tune of, "I know where he will be, but..."
A powerful entity (possibly Odin) had decided to kill Harry and arranged by some mean for it to happen in that alley. This is what the Fates or the Norns, whichever Gard gets her info from, detected. Whether Marcone knew or not, his dicision to save Harry defied a powerful entity. Now Marcone has drawn the attention of this entity and there will be consequences from that attention.
I doubt it was Odin; he seems to like Harry.
-
Yeah, that's what I was saying in the first post. I was only saying there wasn't time travel, specifically.
More to the point because he's acting in the present he's not changing the future any differently from anyone else any time they exercise free will. See Harry staying on the case in death masks, or Shiro swapping places with him in the same book. Every time anyone with free will uses it they're changing the timeline. Happens all the time. harry even says so himself in death masks.
-
Yeah, that's what I was saying in the first post. I was only saying there wasn't time travel, specifically.
I feel like if Odin gave her orders to do so, she wouldn't have been telling Marcone it was a bad idea.
I more got the sense that Marcone was looking for Dresden, and she answered to the tune of, "I know where he will be, but..."
I doubt it was Odin; he seems to like Harry.
The fates are more powerful than Odin, always have been.
-
Gard could also be referring to the fact that Marcone is keeping "the walking avatar of the phrase things fall apart" on the playing field. If you consider the next few books from there on there have already been extended consequences not all of them good for Marcone.
Adding my own theory in I think Odin is very much messing with Time travel and trying to circumvent conservation of history. Mainly from his comment to Harry about "perhaps you already have" I think this timeline has already occurred and reality lost however Odin and probably some others managed to reset some of it to try again
-
Harry up to this point has kept Chicago safe which is why when everyone thought he was dead, shit hit the fan. So saving Harry was good, he's prevented a lot of bad things. The consequences I think will be from Mirror Mirror. If it's like the Star Trek episode Harry prime will be transferred to an alternate reality while Evil Harry is transferred to Prime reality. The only way this is possible is because Harry Prime is alive, hence the consequences. Evil Harry might do some nasty stuff, maybe even kill someone Marcone is very close to which wouldn't have happened if Harry Prime had died.
-
I don't think that Gard knew Harry was going to die until she saw him in the alley; that seems to be the way valkyries work in the Dresden Files. See her suddenly staring at Michael in Small Favor, and Harry recognizing it. Not saying she doesn't know what's going to happen, just that she wouldn't know about it from the other side of Chicago. I figured they headed to Bock's since Harry messed it up the night before.
As for the consequences, well, see books 8-15. Molly's a big one; she'd have been a warlock eventually, and beheaded by the Council rather than the latest Winter Lady. Chichen Itza's another; it's kind of important that Harry didn't die in Dead Beat, as he later commits genocide in a spectacular fashion, which topples the world's power structure.
Immediate consequences include the Darkhallow, setting Butters on the path that leads to him becoming a Knight of the Cross, saving Luccio (and probably Morgan) from the Corpsetaker and Ramirez from whatever else, leaving Cassius free to hunt down another Coin (actually, he probably would've invaded Harry's apartment and hunted it down eventually)—and possibly let him steal or destroy one of the Swords. I think those are the major ones.
Then there's the fact that nobody would've saved Marcone in time in Small Favor, in terms of personal, more long-term consequences. It would also have affected the plot of Ghost Story (as in, none of it would've happened, which screws Zero and the homeless kids). Demonreach would've remained unclaimed for a while, until someone else rolled along.
Honestly, the list is endless. I've often pointed to this as a pivotal moment in the series.
-
I don't think that Gard knew Harry was going to die until she saw him in the alley; that seems to be the way valkyries work in the Dresden Files. See her suddenly staring at Michael in Small Favor, and Harry recognizing it. Not saying she doesn't know what's going to happen, just that she wouldn't know about it from the other side of Chicago. I figured they headed to Bock's since Harry messed it up the night before.
As for the consequences, well, see books 8-15. Molly's a big one; she'd have been a warlock eventually, and beheaded by the Council rather than the latest Winter Lady. Chichen Itza's another; it's kind of important that Harry didn't die in Dead Beat, as he later commits genocide in a spectacular fashion, which topples the world's power structure.
Immediate consequences include the Darkhallow, setting Butters on the path that leads to him becoming a Knight of the Cross, saving Luccio (and probably Morgan) from the Corpsetaker and Ramirez from whatever else, leaving Cassius free to hunt down another Coin (actually, he probably would've invaded Harry's apartment and hunted it down eventually)—and possibly let him steal or destroy one of the Swords. I think those are the major ones.
Then there's the fact that nobody would've saved Marcone in time in Small Favor, in terms of personal, more long-term consequences. It would also have affected the plot of Ghost Story (as in, none of it would've happened, which screws Zero and the homeless kids). Demonreach would've remained unclaimed for a while, until someone else rolled along.
Honestly, the list is endless. I've often pointed to this as a pivotal moment in the series.
You bring up an interesting point actually - Michael on the island seems to be (by Harry's estimate) the same case of a Fated death being averted, and we have word of God (well, Archangel) of how that would've ended; and Uriel applauding Harry for preventing it. There was no time travel involved, just sacrifice and forewarning about the future.