In the novels you tend to see small orders of minor talents crop up. Like the Ordo Lebes. I take it a step forward and say there would be smaller organizations within the council based on culture or tradition. The Council is big brother but I feel that smaller groups would exist at the regional level.

My character Sunny is from one such group in Ireland that I invented that acts to preserve and pass on magical and historical traditions and protect Ireland. These groups also could serve the function to help flesh out Council politics if that angle comes up in game.

I'd go yet farther; the White Council is, in my mind, the NATO of wizards. It's a body which has a narrow mission and substantial but narrow power to accomplish that mission. For anything other than the destruction of warlocks and the organizing of wizards against other supernatural threats, it has no interest or jurisdiction; I don't recall anything indicating that magical research, to name a prime example, is in any way organized or funded by the White Council. The fact that they don't cover anyone other than full wizards is another point in this; sorcerers would clearly have their own organizations, with the only rule in common being "Don't bring down the Wardens". Wizards that shared interests with such groups might sponsor them, join them quietly, or take them over entirely, as their needs and abilities suited.

I am also not Jim, however if you are trying to stat them in your game I have read a very interesting take on them. In a fan fiction, I know they usually suck but this one was actually of book quality, the author wrote the jade court as being able to cast natural veils and feed on memories;. The most powerful JCV could eat your memories as they were formed effectively stopping you from thinking, though the only one who was shown to do this was the Jade king. Culture wise they were both secretive and honorable, using their memory eating ability to eradicate any knowledge of their activities which is why so little is known about them. At least some of them seemed to hold to an altered form of bushido.

I like this. Memory-eating is distinctly different from both blood-drinking and emotion-drinking, it lets them prey on perfectly normal mortals yet still be scary to supernaturals, and it creates a very different set of logical expansions to their powers (namely, that with power, memories could be learned instead of simply consumed, plus aforementioned utility of eating specific memories).

And now for Swordsman School Knacks!

I'm only looking at the KNACKS right now, not the actual abilities granted to each school (that will come up in another post). This will include knacks from schools in Cathay and the Crescent Empire.

Ambush: I think this is covered under the Burglary and Perception skills, as it just says you know how to spot or plan an ambus.

Arc: This increases the range of bows/crossbows, so I can see it is as either a Stunt (increase range by one zone) or just a maneuver.

Bear Hug: This is basically the grapple rules in a nutshell; nothing to see here.

Beat: This knocks the weapon out of the way when you attack. I think a maneuver should cover this well enough.

Bind: Basically, a "weapon grapple." I think either adding it to the Weapon skill trapping as a grapple (only for the opponent's weapon) could work. Otherwise, a Stunt that allows Weapons to be used as a Grapple, but only against the held weapon.

Boarding: This one needs ship combat rules to really work, as it grants a bonus to your boarding action (a combat roll). A stunt might work in this case, but it is hard to say.

Bob'n'Weave: This gives you a bonus when an opponent misses you. I think the current Spin rules (or, better yet, the new boost mechanic of Fate Core) fit this without the need of the knack.

Charge: This just lets your first action go sooner. Change a name of one of the initiative-based Alertness abilities and you're golden.

Claw Hand: An attack that, if successful, deals damage AND makes the opponent lose their next action. I think it's not a good idea for DFRPG and will throw it out.

Corps-a-corps: We've already discussed this one, as it's a punch that knocks you down. Allows the character to use the Weapons skill to initiate a one-turn grapple.

Conceal: Just a way to hide a weapon; I think we're good with the skill system as it stands.

Disarm: Simply removing a weapon from an opponent's grasp. I'm thinking of simple maneuvers here for the narration side. Any objections?

Double-Parry: Using both weapons to parry an attack. 7th Sea mechanics gave a temporary Drama Die for using it. I'm thinking it may be better to use the same name as a Stunt to grant a defense bonus when using two weapons (perhaps like two-weapon fighting, where 1/2 of the weapon value is given?).

Double-Attack: Attack twice when using two weapons. We already have a two-weapon stunt in DFRPG, so I think we're good.

Exploit Weakness: This one is a challenge. Do we keep it around as a stunt for each school to grant an attack bonus, or make it just a narrative tool and a compel of Aspects?

Feint: Like Beat, it's a way to get around a weapon and/or a parry. I'd stick with maneuvers here. But, I'd be okay with the idea of offering the Feint Stunt that gives a bonus to creating maneuvers using the Weapon skill.

Fortitude: This knack lets you take hits better. I think we're covered with how the rest of the DFRPG already works.

Hook: This adds a bonus to hit with a Panzerhand. I don't think we really need it in the DFRPG.

Horse Archery: This is used when using a bow on horseback. I think making it a stunt to allow this task to be done should be sufficient.

Lance: This knack is used for using a polearm in mounted combat. I'm okay with ignoring it, unless you think there should be a Mounted Combat stunt tossed in.

Lunge: An old favourite of mine. You attack with disregard to defense to deal more damage. I can see it being a maneuver, but I'd loved to see a mechanic representation of this. Perhaps a weapons-grade "Killer Blows"?

Missile Defense: In 7th Sea, this was used to dodge thrown weapons. Moot point since we have Athletics.

Orders: This was for mass combat, specifically granting a bonus for one tactic. I doubt it will come up in DFRPG, but if it does, we can easily make it a Presence based stunt.

Pin (Knife): The whole idea of throwing a knife and pinning someone to the wall. I think this would simply be a stunt to "Use Weapons to Initiate a Grapple."

Poison: This was to allow a character to handle poisons safely. Perhaps a stunt would be needed to use Scholarship or Lore for such a purpose?

Pommel Strike: Kind of like Corps-a-Corps, only it dealt more damage in 7th Sea. I can still see it working the same way, or simply as a maneuver.

Power Block: This was an "Offensive Block" against an unarmed attacker. Basically, it's Riposte with your fists. Rip the effect of Riposte and your good.

Reflection: This was an insane power from the Sidhe School from Bryn Bresail. It allows you to imitate your opponent's fighting style. Perhaps using "Mimic Abilities" and requiring a Weapons or Alertness roll to notice how the stunt is done to use for the scene?

Reload: With the long reloads of muskets, this was a useful knack to have. I'd say keep it as a stunt to allow speedy reloads.

Riposte: It works just fine in DFRPG, so no need to recreate the wheel. Move along. . .

Snap Kick and Stop Thrust: Both of these attacks work the same mechanically; one would use Fists, the other uses Weapons. If it hit hard enough, it actually CANCELLED the opponent's attack...I think it's a bit too rough to keep for DFRPG.
Perhaps if we pull the "counter attack" mechanic from another game, make this a stunt, and simply state "Whoever has the higher roll hits and interrupts the others attack," we might have something. Perhaps limiting it via spending Fate Points or once per scene would make it more balanced?

Tagging: The quintessential maneuver, right here. I like the idea of buying a stunt that makes any Aspect created and tagged by someone with this stunt worth +3 instead of +2 would be worthwhile.

Throw: This was just to attack with thrown weapons. We can ignore it.

Trick Riding: This one allows a collection of tricks to be done on horseback. Perhaps a stunt to allow the use of Riding in lieu of Perform for entertainment purposes, use Perform instead of Riding for general riding a horse, or just simply a bonus for any over the top action, including maneuvers?

Trick Shooting: Basically, trick shots like ricochets. If there isn't already a Stunt for it, I can see it being a bonus to creating scene aspects, maneuvers, or being a way to bypass a block.

Wall of Steel: This increased your defense until your action. I can't think of a way to emulate this in DFRPG.

Whirl: This basically gave a bonus to hitting Brute Squads (groups of nameless NPCs that died in one hit). I don't think this one is really relevant to the DFRPG.



And there you have it, all the stunts! Soon I'll go through the abilities of the schools and go from there. . .

Binding and disarming should be simple maneuvers, possibly with a stunt for a bonus. I'm wary of things granting bonuses to attack/defense; I'd have a Double Parry stunt make it easier to get spin on defense when using two weapons, since that holds to the original mechanic (fancy defense gets you something to use going forward). Exploit Weakness is very much within the realm of compels, but I can see room for a stunt granting more value from maneuvers against certain styles.

Lunge could indeed be something like that, save that Killer Blows is a terrible stunt. A Fate Point added to an attack already gives +2 stress; Killer Blows only adds +1 stress once per scene. I'd rather hark back to the Lunge mechanic; gain a +2 to stress inflicted in exchange for offering a Mediocre defense until your next turn.

Stop Thrust/Snap Kick could be as follows: sacrifice your next action, make a Weapons roll; if it hits, the incoming attack fails, but if it misses, you offer a Mediocre defense against the incoming attack. Useful when you see a bad attack coming in, or when you have some bonus to attack that you don't have to defense.

I'd like Tagging to give bonuses only when what's being done is not a physical attack. Carving your initials in someone's pants seat isn't to help you stab them to death, it's to help you humiliate them, convince them that you're the superior swordsman, or show your mercy to the love interest who commands them.

Everything I didn't comment on looks good.

EDIT: Enough of the school abilities seem like they're more invoke-fodder than actual stunts that I think it's more worth calling out the ones that really need/can be a stunt, and otherwise mostly making it a question of Aspects.

So nuke the Assessment part of Channeling, and you think Sorte would be good to go?

Rather, say that as part of this power, the range of possible Assessments is expanded to cover anything that Sorte can see or affect, regardless of whether there's any contextual reason for it to be apparent.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Vargo! It's been a busy couple of days, but I'm back~ish!

No worries.

Kind of like how Incite Emotion and Domination are "add-ons" to the power? Make the Porte power start off with at least -2 (let the player pick whatever powers they choose, like Attune, Catch, etc, as they work like Stunts)?

That's the basic idea; Bring is the base, and someone with the Refresh can get all kinds of nifty tricks, but there's no strict progression that someone must follow.

And travel here does it does have its dangers; perhaps a compel from time to time to warrant this?

Precisely.

I can see it as possible, but I still feel as though it should have more flexibility than acting as the equivalent of a stunt to use a new skill (Empathy, in your case) to apply aspects to the situation. As only a Aspect Machine, it doesn't feel as though it carries the same degree of fear that we see in the source material, as Fate Witches were viewed as a powerful tool and commodity, and few wished to meet their gaze due to the power they possessed. Throwing an aspect on the table for a single compel (more if you have FP) just doesn't seem to meet that in my opinion.

There are two reasons why Sorte maneuvers should be scary. First, because the Strega doesn't need to actually do anything to enact their power. Unless you yourself are a Fate Witch, you have no way of knowing whether you've been cursed or how, much less proving it to anyone else. Secondly is that only a Strega can do anything about removing those aspects before they're tagged. I don't know how to balance that, mechanically, but a Sorte curse isn't something that can be dodged or waited out.

On that note, do you think everyone with a Bargainer Magic should have "Marked By Power" as a requirement, as each one is marked in some way?

I don't like Marked by Power in general; it's an unimpressive stunt which seems to mostly just cost Refresh for something that should be an as-needed High Concept invocation. I wouldn't even insist on it for a Knight of one of the Courts in DF.

Well, not every mage has Sidhe Blood if I remember correctly, but I know the Glamour itself was granted by Elaine having the Graal and all that jazz, which brought magic back to the land in the first place.

So why don't we stick with "Compelling the character's High Concept to act in accordance of the actions of the Invoked Legend or in benefit of Avalon"? Does that sound comprehensive enough?

That's fairly comprehensive; my recollection was that Glamour and fey blood were synonymous, but that may simply have been my GM's take.

I think Corps-a-Corps is an odd beastie as it deals damage AND knocks the opponent down. That said, I think we can use a stunt and tweak the "grapple" rules to simulate getting knocked over during the attack; perhaps allowing Weapons to create the necessary taggable Aspect and allow for a one-turn "grapple" to represent getting knocked over?

The others will take some work; I'll look over the rulebooks and see what I can offer later today/this week if time permits.

Sounds good.

So before I go into the section by section, I would believe that we have reached agreements on Pyryem, Porte, and El Fuego Adentro at the very least, correct?

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page for Pyeryem and Fuego.

Porte: -3 for the ability, which grants the ability to pull a set number of items out of nowhere (the "Bring" knack), create a pocket to store things (the "Pocket" knack), a viable reason to "block" some attacks (the "Catch" knack), the ability to detect some objects (the "Attunement" knack) and emulate a limited version of Worldwalker (the "walk" knack, with the ability to make some maneuvers in the process). Or do you think it should be more expensive when you take all of the knacks into consideration?

I'd part it out, actually, so that someone could take the knacks they wanted and leave the others for later. Bring is the baseline, and I'd call it -1. I don't recall the exact mechanics on Pocket or Attunement, but expanding the ability to store objects (but not people) probably only reaches a -1, and the ability to know where your objects of interest is should really be folded into the base power. Catch is probably no more powerful than the Footwork stunt, though mechanical representation is an interesting question, so that's again a -1. And the actual Walking, I'd set at a base -2 for the ability to move yourself, with another -1 when you can carry people with you. It's much faster and more secure than Nevernever travel, but it also has far fewer possible destinations.

Honestly, I can see a good Sorte "block" as twisting the strands to keep someone from coming at them. Don't want to fight this person? Fray the sword strand; they have to overcome the Block to get to you. Fray a cups strand, and they won't be able to speak against you in social combat without overcoming it.

I see Sorte as being more subtle than most Blocks, working with existing circumstances and conditions to make action easier or more difficult, rather than creating an entirely new barrier or threat. That's why my inclination is to treat it as maneuvers, creating and tagging aspects to manipulate the situation.

So...yeah. While Breath Weapon/Natural Weapon shows the damage side and how said damage can apply to creating aspects, it doesn't really show that it CAN be more advanced when you think about it. I can see it being used to defend by dissolving ranged weapons (melee will take some thought), create a block via a dissolving field (or even just bad footing), and as previously mentioned, make attacks or create (or destroy) scene aspects.

That being said, I do agree that they shouldn't have the counter-magic side of things, but since you wouldn't be using most normal magic rules in 7th Sea, this becomes a moot point, as I think the only counter-magic is the Thomas knack from Glamour.

Just my two cents, anyway.

I'm not going to call it badwrongfun to treat Zerstorung as having the flexibility of Channeling; it's just not how I'd do it. I'd recommend not going to full Sponsored Magic, though, since A) Zerstorung rituals aren't a thing I recall existing by book and B) if they did, they'd mostly be death curses, which are bad mojo from a gamist standpoint. Evil wizards who can dissolve you are scary enough if they have to be in the room with you.

I think this one might be a personal preference. I just recall having a player carve a Villskap rune and striking down an entire Brute Squad with a lightning bolt to escape from a jail cell. Good times. . .

Honestly, I wouldn't take that one away since at the beginning, runes are temporary (you have to hit Adept to have a permanent rune on something, then Master to become said rune), but that's my preference/approach to things.

Again, tastes differ; if your table enjoys runic evocation, rather than a limited number of uses a la open potion slots, that doesn't hurt my game any.

This...actually makes perfect sense. So you aren't acting in accordance to the AGENDA of the Legend, but rather acting in accordance to the PERSONALITY of that Legend. Added bonus (or alternative if the situation warrants) if the situation and deeds are tied to Avalon/The Sidhe?

Probably a compel (or self-compel for extra fate points) on the Glamour mage's high concept; the particular legend might not be in favor of a united Avalon or the Sidhe's current agenda, but that doesn't mean that the mage's faerie blood doesn't have its own strings to pull.

Oh, it is compel-fodder. Perhaps if someone is unlicensed, they would have to tie it to the Swordsman School Aspect ("Illegal Donovan Duelist" or "Secretly Trained Valroux," for example)?

I agree with the reputation as a stunt, and perhaps even using a stunt to allow the Weapons skill to replace Contacts/Resources at the cost of a FP (to denote people you know or "resources" at hand due to your standing in the Guild)?

For a stunt, I'd say "Use Weapons instead of Contacts whenever dealing with members of the Swordsman's Guild". No Fate point charge, but limited usage; it'll get you mercenaries, and information at a very narrow level, which is about one trapping's worth.

On a further swordsman school note, which swordsman knacks and special abilities do you think would warrant special stunts? I figured a good number of the schools would use anything related to two weapons, but the other stunts in DFRPG aren't really going to cover things like Double Parry, the Bind-Disarm, etc.

The one that springs to mind immediately is Corps-a-Corps. Many of the others don't need stunts but could benefit from them; e.g. anyone can use Weapons to create an aspect of Missing his Hat, but with the Tagging stunt, those aspects are worth +3 when first invoked if it's for a social attack rather than a physical one. But Corps-a-Corps seems like it could use its own rules; maybe using Weapons to initiate a Grapple?

According to the rulebook, crossing over just anywhere is a 5-shift ritual. Crossing over in places that are frequently used as Ways is less difficulty, maybe 2 or 3, depending on just how often it's used.

Maybe Harry find it hard because the complexity is higher than his Lore so he had to make a declaration or take a minor consequence like "fatigued" to make up the difference.

That seems just about right, then. For a Waist-Deep thaumaturgy specialist, not terribly difficult; for an evocation specialist, there's some effort, but it's not crippling.

At which point you're Taken Out, and your fate is in the hands of your opponent, subject to reason as overseen by the Table.
Just because someone takes you out, though, even in a physical conflict, doesn't mean they get to kill you.  With Undying, you've established the circumstances by which 'death' is a plausible result as being difficult to achieve.  Without it, that assessment must be done each time someone would have reason to propose 'death' as their preferred result.
All of that doesn't stop other Bad Things (TM) from befalling you, though, as a result of your unfortunate not-actually-demise.  Including those that could hypothetically make your character effectively unplayable while technically neglecting to 'kill' them. (take the classic, 'buried in several meters of concrete' solution to typical unkillable opponents; they're not dead, they're just not coming back)

Very much this. A power that reduces the range of taken out results doesn't actually make them any less potentially permanent. Whether it's being scattered across the forest by scavengers or taken in chains before the King of the Seas, bad things can happen to those who heal from physical consequences.