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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: magnuskn on September 16, 2023, 08:03:57 PM
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I had the privilege of attending the Saturday Q&A with Jim at Fantasyfestival 2023 in Denmark today and even got to talk to him a few minutes afterwards about some roleplaying stuff.
Jim doing the Q&A:
https://imgur.com/4RoK45r
https://imgur.com/j353ixq
Me looking dopey next to to Jim:
https://imgur.com/urGr6sQ
I got two ask my two prepared questions and also another impromptu question about the order of the books to be published. Some other interesting stuff came up as well. I got a pretty detailed write-up out of it, so I thought I'd share it with you guys. Some new info included.
My first question was: "Since Murphy has recently become a just mostly dead Einherjar, how likely do you see it that she, given her personality and love for Harry, would be content to abide by the „until she has passed out of living memory“ rule and not try to subvert it in some way?"
His answer: Does Murphy strike you as someone to just follow along with such a rule? Of course she will try to subvert it somehow.
My second question: Will Harry not calling Ivy since his return from being also mostly dead come to bite him in the ass, since he is a father figure to her and seems to simply have forgotten to contact her for about three years?
His answer: Ivy sees Harry more as a friend. She is more concerned about him, her anger is directed at Kincaid. Ivy could pick up the telephone at any time, but as the Archive she does have a different scale of time than normal people. She basically can read everybodies mail, anyway. She's a pretty creepy kid. <much laughter from the audience>
Questions from the audience:
Q: How many more books are planned before the BAT?
A: The number of books has grown, it may be 25 in total now, plus the BAT.
Q: What do you listen to while writing?
A: Metal covers for action scenes, country music for emotional scenes, Weird Al Yankovicz for humor. Lindsey Stirling while writing the Cinder Spires books (that got a big cheer from me, as a fellow fan of Lindsey Stirling).
Q: Would Harry, if he could, shill cold beer at McAnally's?
A: Jim doesn't know if he would dare to, Mac is pretty serious about his beer.
Q: Could we get a short story about how Harry's parents met?
A: Probably not, because Harry wasn't there and these are his case files. Margaret was charmed by Malcolm, because he was not treating her like a wizard but rather like a normal human being.
Jim then went on for a few minutes talking about the planned Goodman Grey series, maybe he wanted to imply that the story could show up there? I'm not sure.
Q: How is your process of writing?
A: It's very different for Cinder Spires, because Jim has to make up everything he writes there. For Dresden it is a bit more simple. For research, Jim looks up profiles of people who resemble the characters he writes about, for example John Marcone.
If he is ever stuck on a story beat, he just can have someone start shooting at Harry, that moves the scene forward. ;D
Q: Does he plan on a spin-off / sequel for Codex Alera?
A: Jim has enough new ideas to write until he is 128 years old. If he ever goes back to Codex Alera, it would be to write about the equivalent of the Protoss invasion, with the former characters showing up as teachers for the new generation.
Q: Which parts of real life mythology do you use?
A: Jim has read a lot during his life. He started when he was little with greek mythology, then went to norse, keltic and finnish mythology... and then he got into D&D, which is a big mash-up of all mythologies. Since he lived the fun part of fundamental christianity (instead of the mental part), he incorporated it a lot into the Dresden Files as well. He also has Wiccan friends. He got mail by both a Christian cardinal and a Wiccan priest both thanking him separately with how much respect he had treated their faiths, so he seems to be doing well enough in that regard.
Q: Can you clear up for us if Father Forthill is secretly evil? He seems to be losing those coins all the time...
A: He won't answer that question, of course. Jim jokingly then goes on a spiel how we must think he's a terrible person to being suspected of writing something like that and of course he likes to torture his audience... but since nobody will allow that, he has to torture the characters instead!
Q: Do you wish you hadn't written something in the past because now it proves to be an obstacle for the rest of the storyline?
A: Jim is pretty happy how things have turned out so far from his original storyline. While he of course looks back at his prior self from a decade ago and thinks that person was kind of an idiot (don't we all...), that guy seems to have done something right, given the continued success of the series. "That guy knew some stuff". Jim then talks about the importance of keeping in touch with your inner child. Also a bit about LARP'ing and how he can't wait to get back to it and big styrofoam swords in a few weeks. Jim feels he definitely needs some input from his younger self.
Q: Have other norse gods followed Odin in giving up some of their power?
A: Thor is chasing storms in geek mobiles (i.e. like those guys from Twister) and also playing college football under ever new identities. Loki is a movie producer in Hollywood. A lot of gods are wrestlers, since now they have more fans than they did have worshippers.
Q: I then got to ask Jim about the schedule of planned books for the future.
A: Next book is Twelve Months.
- Harry must pick himself up after being knocked down.
- Ghouls seem to be pretty involved in the story of the book.
- Dates with Lara.
- Mobs with pitchforks, after the big battle of Chicago. The government is trying to keep the spread
of information about the supernatural battle confined to Chicago.
- Dresden will try to pull the city back together after getting hit by the equivalent of a magic EMP.
The book after that is Mirror Mirror.
- An evil Dresden from an alternate universe will try to kill Harry, because evil Dresden needs to
leave Harrys body as evidence for something.
The wrestling gods murder mystery book is somewhen later after that.
The last book before the BAT will be the time travel book, to "plug any continuity holes".
Also, the third Cinder Spires books will happen on the surface (which is a big yikes, given how the fauna there is).
Then Jim managed to get into his usual spiel about how he got into writing the Dresden Files, which ate up six minutes of the Q&A.
Q: What was the writing process for a cat society which used tools?
A: Jim wasn't a cat owner when he wrote book 1 of the Cinder Spires, but knew a lot of people who loved cats. He now also is a cat owner. The secret to cat society working in Cinder Spires is that every cat thinks it is the most awesome cat in the universe and every other cat is not as competent as itself. Also the most important cats will make a show of caring less about the opinions of other cats than those other cats. Aside from that their society revolves a lot about honor and is a society of hunters.
Q: Is Mister just a normal cat?
A: He is a cat, that is magical by itself. Jim then talks a bit about coping with the loss of an animal friend and letting a new pet into your life.
Jim then tells the story about his dog saved his sons life from a bear, which I won't repeat here, it can be found in recorded interviews on Youtube. I would have preferred another retelling of how Jim got cursed by a Brazilian witch doctor, but what can you do? ^^
Q: If you could invite five characters from your books for dinner who would you invite and what would you cook for them?
A: Ambassador Varg from Codex Alera, to see how he reacts to modern society. Harry, because Jim owes a lot to him. Mab, to see how she interacts with Ambassador Varg. Jim then says, to much laughter, he wouldn't use his own house. Lara Raith, for obvious reasons. And lastly Nicodemus Archleone, because that would be fun. Also not to his own house. Jim then would cook steak and potatoes for them, because that is basically all the can cook. And open the dinner with "You are surely asking yourselves why I invited you here..." <much laughter again from the audience>
Q: When will we learn who is Cowl and is it Justin?
A: Yeah, Jim is not going to answer that. Cowl is still alive, of course. Also, it is more interesting to Jim when Lasciel will come back for Harry, because she won't let something like being buried under tons of rock in Hades stop her.
Q: Will we learn more about Margaret in the future?
A: Bits and pieces, but she is of the last generation of characters and hence there won't be too many details about their lifes in future books.
Q: Any news on a TV series?
A: Some people are looking into trying to make the Dresden Files into the "True Detective" of urban fantasy. However Jim would prefer an animated series with James Marsters as the voice of Harry.
That concluded the Q&A. I got to ask him afterwards if the Maggie boarding school books with his sister were still on the schedule and he said that they probably won't happen, because of "industry concerns". I didn't pursue the matter any further, because I got my photo with him taken, my copy of Skin Game signed as well as a spanish copy of Changes for my best friend in Paraguay.
Later I managed to walk a few minutes with Jim and talk about the Pathfinder RPG, but that is not of interest to the people here. I soon after said my goodbyes and took the train back to Germany. All in all it was a very nice afternoon and it really was a bit overwhelming, but very joyful, to meet my favorite writer after reading his books for so many years.
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NEXT BOOK Ghouls? That’s new, Harry’s views on Ghouls are well known and one of the unhealthiest parts of his character. Is he going to address this learn to treat them like beings again?
Mobs? The Law deals briefly with attacks on the supernatural community, but Harry lives in a Castle it’s very trite.
MURPHY
So Murphy is going to try to get around the living memory rule? The only recognised exception is for Ragnarok. However Odin these days is more than just Odin, perhaps she uses part of the Santa Claus lore against him? The narrative only extends as far as Christmas Eve/The Good People. Perhaps it is the Murphy of post living memory brought back in time by Kringle?
THE NORSE GODS
Thor as a storm chaser makes sense, Loki as a Hollywood producer might be wishful thinking in the part of Jim.
COWL
Why ask about Justin? Should have asked about Nameless.
LASCIEL
Will be back but I doubt Hannah Ashe will be, so be on the lookout for a new host.
TIME TRAVEL
Jim has confirmed something I theorised, that the “continuity errors” are not in fact that but actually hidden plot points, designed to allow Jim to retcon the Files to a certain extent. Most importantly Harry starts wearing a hat after Restoration of Faith.
MISTER
Jim deflects heavily elwon’t confirm “normal” but is he preparing for Misters death scene?
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Regarding Murphy, I at first wanted to ask Jim if Harry would be able to breach that new rule which was made up with Murphys dead, just like he'll eventually will break all seven laws of magic. But after some introspection I then I realized that this way I was treating her as having no agency in her new condition... which brought about my new and (IMO) improved question. I'm pretty happy with the answer, because it confirms (at least in my mind) that she is not just sitting around taking orders from Odin, but actively trying to get back into the game and back to Dresden.
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Thanks for all the information... Hmmmm.......Wonder if Murphy is able to come back somehow, what her reaction will be to Mrs Lara Dresden? :o
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Murphy appears at the end of NEXT BOOK travelling backwards in time, just as Harry is pulled into the the Mirrorverse as he is about to say I do.
That would be very Jim.
We know from other sources Freydis is likely to become Harry’s nanny bodyguard and she had a thing for Murphy so that would make it even more awkward, a good old love rectangle.
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Thanks for all the information... Hmmmm.......Wonder if Murphy is able to come back somehow, what her reaction will be to Mrs Lara Dresden? :o
As if that is really going to be a thing for longer than absolutely necessary. ^^ Lara and Harry have negative zero romantic chemistry, so this is a placeholder until someone more importantly enters Harrys life (or comes back into it, IMO). From what I see, Molly was recently negated as a romantic partner with her magic chastity belt for that very reason, because otherwise she would be the natural next partner for Harry. It's very unfair to Molly, but since I strongly prefer a Murphy / Dresden endgame for the series, I sadly think Jim did the right thing there in terms of storytelling.
Murphy appears at the end of NEXT BOOK travelling backwards in time, just as Harry is pulled into the the Mirrorverse as he is about to say I do.
That would be very Jim.
I'd love for it to happen. ;D
We know from other sources Freydis is likely to become Harry’s nanny bodyguard and she had a thing for Murphy so that would make it even more awkward, a good old love rectangle.
Freydis seems like a likely candidate and I don't think she'd be above giving Harry little news updates how Murphy is doing in Valhalla. ^^
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As if that is really going to be a thing for longer than absolutely necessary. ^^ Lara and Harry have negative zero romantic chemistry, so this is a placeholder until someone more importantly enters Harrys life (or comes back into it, IMO). From what I see, Molly was recently negated as a romantic partner with her magic chastity belt for that very reason, because otherwise she would be the natural next partner for Harry. It's very unfair to Molly, but since I strongly prefer a Murphy / Dresden endgame for the series, I sadly think Jim did the right thing there in terms of storytelling.
Actually in my opinion, way back in the White Night days I think there was romantic chemistry between Harry and Lara. Of course a lot of that could be chalked up to merely White Court Vamp Whammy, but then again, Lara is attracted to strong men. I also agree that is unfair to Molly and her and Harry could have gotten something going eventually. The problem with Jim going there is Harry knew Molly since she was a young child, and even though she is a grown up young woman now, for a number of fans it is an ick factor. I never was a fan of the Murphy romance, I liked it better when they were friends and working partners. I liked Murphy much better when she was a tough professional cop, in my opinion her evolution as a character didn't go well and for me it was a relief when she exited the stage. Susan also went off the rails because of the way she was written originally. Luccio might have worked, but it was all about Peabody's ink? Perhaps Jim just has trouble writing romance? If he does, he should leave Harry alone, let him be a father to his kids and eventually a happy grandfather.
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Actually in my opinion, way back in the White Night days I think there was romantic chemistry between Harry and Lara. Of course a lot of that could be chalked up to merely White Court Vamp Whammy, but then again, Lara is attracted to strong men. I also agree that is unfair to Molly and her and Harry could have gotten something going eventually. The problem with Jim going there is Harry knew Molly since she was a young child, and even though she is a grown up young woman now, for a number of fans it is an ick factor. I never was a fan of the Murphy romance, I liked it better when they were friends and working partners. I liked Murphy much better when she was a tough professional cop, in my opinion her evolution as a character didn't go well and for me it was a relief when she exited the stage. Susan also went off the rails because of the way she was written originally. Luccio might have worked, but it was all about Peabody's ink? Perhaps Jim just has trouble writing romance? If he does, he should leave Harry alone, let him be a father to his kids and eventually a happy grandfather.
Well, I obviously disagree with a lot of that (regarding Murphy), so I hope the two get back together again, rather sooner than later. I was a bit afraid before that Jim might have had a Moonlighting problem (i.e. writing an ongoing romance is harder than people getting together), but overall, after thinking it over a lot, it was just the right moment in the story for Murphy to go as a normal mortal and then come back as a more supernatural version of herself later. She had gotten hurt in a way she would never recover from physically, was about to get too old for future kids and in terms of her employment, she was not going to go back to the police force anymore. So, it was either leaving her in an awkward spot in the story or doing something radically new for (or to, ahem) her.
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Nice Notes! Very detailed glad you went!
Murphy's gonna have some thoughts and feelings about Harry marrying the White Court Queen Succubus.
Dissapointed about the various series that aren't happening. Maggie Jr YA and Tv series. Also always wanted to see a Maggie Sr prequel as well. ah well.
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I actually like Lara as a continuing love interest. She won't be as hands-on as Murphy (As an active sidekick at least, personal life will be the exact opposite.) but if she's assigning Freydis to him and giving him money and information then she taking over Murphy's roles.
She's an upgrade to his support team, just as Goodman Grey is better muscle than Thomas and Mab is a better boss than the White Council. You could even stretch it and say Butters is an upgrade over Michael because he has the Lightsword and uses magic but that's probably a wash.
And wouldn't it be like Jim to remove Harry's protection and still have Harry's touch burn her when he kisses the bride.
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On the general subject of Q & A, was there anything in the recent podcast of significance? I no longer drive long distances for business, and find that I don't have the patience to just sit and listen to folks talk.
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On the general subject of Q & A, was there anything in the recent podcast of significance? I no longer drive long distances for business, and find that I don't have the patience to just sit and listen to folks talk.
The only thing I remember from it which was new is that Jim apparently had to deal with a stalker just in the recent years. Which sucks, of course.
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Thanks for all the information...
:D THIS! :D
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... And wouldn't it be like Jim to remove Harry's protection and still have Harry's touch burn her when he kisses the bride.
<heh>
"Dearly Beloved..."
yadda yadda yadda
"You may air-kiss the bride."
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Well, I obviously disagree with a lot of that (regarding Murphy), so I hope the two get back together again, rather sooner than later. I was a bit afraid before that Jim might have had a Moonlighting problem (i.e. writing an ongoing romance is harder than people getting together), but overall, after thinking it over a lot, it was just the right moment in the story for Murphy to go as a normal mortal and then come back as a more supernatural version of herself later. She had gotten hurt in a way she would never recover from physically, was about to get too old for future kids and in terms of her employment, she was not going to go back to the police force anymore. So, it was either leaving her in an awkward spot in the story or doing something radically new for (or to, ahem) her.
Yes, as Murphy aged she became more unrealistic, so she either had to retire or die.. So Jim killed her off, my question is, if he brings her back as a resurrected supernatural something or other, what is he going to do with her? For me at any rate and I don't think I am alone in this, the character suffered once she was fired from the police force. Oh the shippers loved all the shipping between her and Harry, but she never quite fit in any of the roles he tried to put her in, including him making her into a combination of Wonder Woman and Athena Goddess of Wisdom.. I don't think it will work now, Murphy was best when she was a smart, professional no nonsense cop. She hasn't been for a long time, let Harry mourn for her and let her rest in peace like Susan,Shiro, Morgan, and others, it is part of life.
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The FBI in Chicago decide to hire their own supernatural consultant from Monoc, they can’t run to a Valkyrie but can a single Einenjharen Murphy. Murphy now has to work with Rick her ex-husband who married her younger sister. As an Einenjharen Murphy will have ceased aging. I always thought that was a loose end which needed tying up.
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Yes, as Murphy aged she became more unrealistic, so she either had to retire or die.. So Jim killed her off, my question is, if he brings her back as a resurrected supernatural something or other, what is he going to do with her? For me at any rate and I don't think I am alone in this, the character suffered once she was fired from the police force. Oh the shippers loved all the shipping between her and Harry, but she never quite fit in any of the roles he tried to put her in, including him making her into a combination of Wonder Woman and Athena Goddess of Wisdom.. I don't think it will work now, Murphy was best when she was a smart, professional no nonsense cop. She hasn't been for a long time, let Harry mourn for her and let her rest in peace like Susan,Shiro, Morgan, and others, it is part of life.
Again, I politely disagree. I thought she was a very good character the last books. And that she isn't going to "rest in peace" was pretty much already established by getting raised as an Einherjar. My personal prediction is still that she is coming back as a Valkyrie, which would subvert the whole "until she has passed out of living memory" rule sufficiently, since that rule if for Einherjar. That already gives her a job, some conflict with Harry, since she is under command of Odin and angst as well for ages.... literally, since now she's immortal and he isn't. Not to mention the whole "she's a catholic Valkyrie" thing. Although Dani Moonstar did pretty well with not being true Asgardian over in the Marvel universe. ;D
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They don’t make winged horses that small, unless Odin is a Brony. Would its cutie mark be an automatic pistol? The presumption is that she was taken to be an Einenjharen.
Murphy was a knight of the sword, (her post changes outings are not therefore out of character, she merely reached her full potential was she always on this career track given the association of Uriel and Vadderung? The Valkyries are often described as the daughters of royalty - Murphy is the descendant of a king something Harry has researched )(about the only thing), so she may qualify
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Again, I politely disagree. I thought she was a very good character the last books. And that she isn't going to "rest in peace" was pretty much already established by getting raised as an Einherjar. My personal prediction is still that she is coming back as a Valkyrie, which would subvert the whole "until she has passed out of living memory" rule sufficiently, since that rule if for Einherjar. That already gives her a job, some conflict with Harry, since she is under command of Odin and angst as well for ages.... literally, since now she's immortal and he isn't. Not to mention the whole "she's a catholic Valkyrie" thing. Although Dani Moonstar did pretty well with not being true Asgardian over in the Marvel universe. ;D
I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. I remember the days when her fans argued that what made Murphy a great character was she was a ordinary vanilla human and was good balance to Harry's magical talent and growing power. In my opinion the books were better when she was no longer in them, but that's me.
Murphy was a knight of the sword, (her post changes outings are not therefore out of character, she merely reached her full potential was she always on this career track given the association of Uriel and Vadderung? The Valkyries are often described as the daughters of royalty - Murphy is the descendant of a king something Harry has researched )(about the only thing), so she may qualify
Just when and where did Harry research that? Murphy was only a Holy Knight for one night, Susan was also even though she was half vamp at the time. I guess you could say since all the Red Court vamps descended from the Red King, that she was a royal descendant.
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... Murphy is the descendant of a king something Harry has researched )(about the only thing) ...
Harry has a working theory that all KotC's are descended from royalty.
He has about 3 data points (Michael, Shiro, Sanya... any others??!?) and his own "wizards intuition" in support of this theory.
But I'm profoundly dubious that the Divine is following the same "rules" that Harry's intuition understands.
In the final analysis, though: I don't think it matters.
Odds are, most people (and likely, everybody) is descended from royalty.
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Maybe Murphy could find some mantle to don that would allow her step back into the real world?
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Maybe Murphy could find some mantle to don that would allow her step back into the real world?
Santa’s Elf?
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Santa’s Elf?
Ho.
Ho.
Ho.
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Maybe Murphy could find some mantle to don that would allow her step back into the real world?
Odin assigns her to become an Einherjar; we suspect the All-Father's own soulfire is involved.
She isn't "supposed" to return to the mortal world 'til she's "forgotten."
Uriel's "spook" division (where her dad works!) subcontracts her.
But we know they have their own channels to return spirits to the mortal realm.
Murphy leverages both Odin & Uriel, threading the needle to get a mortal existence again.
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Ho.
Ho.
Ho.
Kringle “I am sorry Murphy, but you are a little too tall to be an Elf”
Murphy “But you told me I was too short to be a Valkyrie!”
Uriel cannot intervene in the normal course of mortal affairs unless there was infernal intervention. This isn’t impossible if Lasciel intervened with Rudy to make him see a giant as a human, resulting in Murphy’s death to punish Harry. However Uriels intervention has to be proportionate, making humanity forget Murphy isn’t. Unless of course the restriction was imposed by Uriel to prevent resurrection being an everyday occurrence, interfering with free will. He could waive that for Murphy.
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... Unless of course the restriction was imposed by Uriel to prevent resurrection being an everyday occurrence, interfering with free will. He could waive that for Murphy.
I'm pretty sure Uriel isn't allowed to arbitrarily "impose" any restrictions, nor arbitrarily "waive" them.
I'm hypothesizing some sort of "dual loophole" thing, where spirit-Karrin is eligible to interact with the mortal world (by Uriel's rules) but she's also eligible to get a corporeal body (by Odin's rules); those specific conditions weren't ever "intended" to interface together (but also never had a specific exclusion) and Karrin finds a way to make it work.
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The last book before the BAT will be the time travel book, to "plug any continuity holes".
Is there a list of continuity errors posted anywhere?
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I'm pretty sure Uriel isn't allowed to arbitrarily "impose" any restrictions, nor arbitrarily "waive" them.
I'm hypothesizing some sort of "dual loophole" thing, where spirit-Karrin is eligible to interact with the remortalal world (by Uriel's rules) but she's also eligible to get a corporeal body (by Odin's rules); those specific conditions weren't ever "intended" to interface together (but also never had a specific exclusion) and Karrin finds a way to make it work.
Garble gook! That's the problem with trying to bring Murphy back, there are enough loose ends that need to be tied up before the BAT! It is the same problem that Jim has had with her character since he fired her off the police force! All this takes up pages and pages not really moving the story along.. Oh Murphy is back as a supernatural something or other, when befoew she was a mortal before doing superhuman things. Let Harry move on and the story move on, his heart can always ache for her, but move on with maybe her showing up on the final page of the last book of the BAT!
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Odin traded in his immortality to stay in the mortal world that means he dealt with the White God with Uriel as his handler. In return he got Soulfire, the gift of the White God and the necessary element for a genuine resurrection. Uriel would know this and make it part of the agreement not to have People coming back like Lazarus (or Jesus himself) as it would detract from the New Testament, and the spread of Christianity. The compromise was living memory, at the time there were no photographs, even a famous Einenjharen could pop back up in 50 years without being recognised.
If that is the case Murphy is listed as “missing” in a mass casualty event, with people medivacced all over the US. All you need to do is find a coma victim of the right height and sex, and swap them out with Murphy. There was a case of the wrong family claiming a young woman in similar circumstances a couple of years ago. Voila Murphy “wakes” up identifies herself and resumes her own identity. No Lazarus like resurrection, merely an everyday bottom of the running order good news story.
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If that is the case Murphy is listed as “missing” in a mass casualty event, with people medivacced all over the US. All you need to do is find a coma victim of the right height and sex, and swap them out with Murphy. There was a case of the wrong family claiming a young woman in similar circumstances a couple of years ago. Voila Murphy “wakes” up identifies herself and resumes her own identity. No Lazarus like resurrection, merely an everyday bottom of the running order good news story.
Problem, she bled out in Harry's arms and Rudolph knew he shot her and watched her die.. No, not as simple as you might think. Which I think brings us to the problem of trying to bring Murphy back, if you have to twist the story line into a pretzel to do it, it won't be good. If she shows up as an Einherjar, fine, but only if she is no longer the Murphy that Harry knew and loved. She might not be gone from his memory, but he is gone from hers.
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Rudolph would both lie and be a noncredible witness.
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Rudolph would both lie and be a noncredible witness.
He is a police officer, his word has weight.
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He is a police officer, his word has weight.
He committed manslaughter and was turned in by a fellow police officer. His word has therefore zero weight with the authorities.
Also, how much "space" Murphys return would take up is highly mutable. I'd happily give up all the space Dresden dating Lara will fill.
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He is a police officer, his word has weight.
Normally, that would be true but at this particular trial, Rudolph would be in trouble.
Harry would have Bradley's testimony about Rudolph's antipathy to Harry, his poor gun and trigger discipline and his erratic behavior during the night.
When Harry has his credibility questioned, he can point to his long-time association to as a consultant to the CPD, his active PI license and can demonstrate his ability as a wizard.
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Of course Murphy returning from the dead would exonerate Rudy, but leave him in a precarious mental state.
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Problem, she bled out in Harry's arms and Rudolph knew he shot her and watched her die.. No, not as simple as you might think...
Strictly from the standpoint of mortal law (not considering anything about Odin's einherjaren, or Uriel's Spooky-Squad, the "Laws of Magic," or other supernatural Beings or strictures) Rudy won't testify about those events -- he shot and killed her, his own testimony would put him in jail for years. Rudy needs to keep those events as far from official attention as he can!
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Garble gook!
No; the magical through-line is there (at least, hypothetically; if Jim wants to write it that way).
Uriel can & does send spirits of the departed back to the real world.
Odin can & does bring dead spirits back to life in einherjaren bodies.
Each of them has specific -- but different -- restrictions on how & when they do so.
It wouldn't be the first time one of the Powers slipped a "fast one" over the rules, with a shrug and a phlegmatic "Mortals! Whatcha gonna do?!...<wink>"
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No Uriel has capacity to send spirits to the inbetween space ColinMurphy and Co inhabited, Harry never died so technically wasn’t sent back as a spirit.
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No Uriel has capacity to send spirits to the inbetween space ColinMurphy and Co inhabited ...
I don't think he "sends" the Colin Murphy's &c there.
He just organizes some of them who are there (who are essentially good souls, but who aren't ready for "what's next").
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I don't think he "sends" the Colin Murphy's &c there.
He just organizes some of them who are there (who are essentially good souls, but who aren't ready for "what's next").
Angelic loop hole?
I don't think we've seen the last of Rudolph. I also don't think that any trial will be either that simple or that straight forward simply because both sides, i.e. the supernatural world and the vanilla muggle world want to put that genie back in it's bottle.. Which means a lot of testimony won't be allowed or changed.. Not to mention the fact that Harry no longer has the White Council at his back anymore, and they will have their fingers in the jury pool as well. Don't get me wrong, I think Harry will come out okay, he usually does, but it will be messy. There is also a reason why Jim wrote that short story, "The Law."
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I mean, Murphy is a devout (or maybe a bit lapsed, due to events of the last years?) catholic, you'd think Uriel would at least have a word with Odin about having snatched her up for his version of the afterlife.
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She’s a former Fist of God, even if for one knight only, so she deserves some aftercare from Uriel.
Thinking about it one of Odin’s Valkyries “chose” a Knight before, Michael for Michael to survive the choosing because of Harry’s intervention, so there is a precedent Harry was one of Uriels agents as well having Soulfire himself at the time. Was Michael destined to be an Einenjharen until Harry intervened? Is there a special phalanx of Einenjharen we haven’t t seen yet who were former Knights? If so do the same rules apply to them?
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She’s a former Fist of God, even if for one knight only, so she deserves some aftercare from Uriel.
Thinking about it one of Odin’s Valkyries “chose” a Knight before, Michael for Michael to survive the choosing because of Harry’s intervention, so there is a precedent Harry was one of Uriels agents as well having Soulfire himself at the time. Was Michael destined to be an Einenjharen until Harry intervened? Is there a special phalanx of Einenjharen we haven’t t seen yet who were former Knights? If so do the same rules apply to them?
I don't think so, the Einenjharen we've seen, those who worked for Marcone don't seem to have much connection or any connection to the friends and family they had in life. Very painful I must say if any of the living remembered them when they were alive... Hence the rule, they cannot return until they are passed all living memory.
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... I don't think we've seen the last of Rudolph. I also don't think that any trial will be either that simple or that straight forward simply because both sides, i.e. the supernatural world and the vanilla muggle world want to put that genie back in it's bottle.. Which means a lot of testimony won't be allowed or changed...
I don't think we've seen the last of Rudolph, either.
But I think he's going to continue to be a low-grade asshat.
There won't be a trial. There probably won't even be any formal charges.
I think Harry was the only witness, and I don't think he's going to file a police report on the incident. No body.
I expect Murphy is only one of thousands from that night who officially are "Missing Persons" (without even a "presumed dead," because the gov't officially isn't admitting there was an assault by monsters, some of whom simply ate dead bodies).
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I think Harry was the only witness, and I don't think he's going to file a police report on the incident. No body.
Uh, Bradley was there, too. And he already told Harry that Rudolph would face justice.
I don't think so, the Einenjharen we've seen, those who worked for Marcone don't seem to have much connection or any connection to the friends and family they had in life. Very painful I must say if any of the living remembered them when they were alive... Hence the rule, they cannot return until they are passed all living memory.
Well, those Einherjar already passed through that whole "until they have passed out of living memory" thing, so no wonder they have no big connection to their old families. Murphy just died and was brought back and I would say a lot of special rules apply to her. Lover of a big ally of Odin, former wielder of a holy sword and therefore in the good graces of the Archangel Uriel and his boss. Also, she's Murphy.
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Uh, Bradley was there, too. And he already told Harry that Rudolph would face justice.
Was Bradley at the site of the shooting?
I thought he was with the kids.
I need to re-read BG!
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Well, those Einherjar already passed through that whole "until they have passed out of living memory" thing, so no wonder they have no big connection to their old families. Murphy just died and was brought back and I would say a lot of special rules apply to her. Lover of a big ally of Odin, former wielder of a holy sword and therefore in the good graces of the Archangel Uriel and his boss. Also, she's Murphy.
But that becomes a "roll your eyes" problem, I know that is difficult for her devoted fans, but there it is. It was beginning to become a problem for the story, Murphy, yes, good at hand to hand combat, but as she gets older and injured still takes down just about everyone? Suddenly she all the wisdom of the world? I could go on, but that was the problem, she stopped being realistic, it was more give me a break... That's why Jim had to kill her off, and if she is brought back too soon, what's new there? Other than as one of Odin's fighters she does what she always did? Her fans will love that I know and respect that, but in my opinion it hurts the story.
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Uh, Bradley was there, too. And he already told Harry that Rudolph would face justice.
Bradley wasn't there when Murphy was shot. He runs off with his daughter before the Jotun fight and does not reappear later in the book. He does come to the realization that Rudolph is the problem on the steps though. What can be done about it, isn't mentioned.
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Bradley wasn't there when Murphy was shot. He runs off with his daughter before the Jotun fight and does not reappear later in the book. He does come to the realization that Rudolph is the problem on the steps though. What can be done about it, isn't mentioned.
Which is a problem... Even severe paranoia can be hard to spot..
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But that becomes a "roll your eyes" problem, I know that is difficult for her devoted fans, but there it is. It was beginning to become a problem for the story, Murphy, yes, good at hand to hand combat, but as she gets older and injured still takes down just about everyone? Suddenly she all the wisdom of the world? I could go on, but that was the problem, she stopped being realistic, it was more give me a break... That's why Jim had to kill her off, and if she is brought back too soon, what's new there? Other than as one of Odin's fighters she does what she always did? Her fans will love that I know and respect that, but in my opinion it hurts the story.
We knew Murphy was due to retire (or be killed) pretty soon: we are past (long past!) the point where Harry can take vanilla mortals on his adventures.
Some of the Alpha's died when Harry led the Naagloshi to them; Michael lost much of the use of his leg on Demonreach. Murphy was permanently crippled by Nicodemus, and Molly wasn't all the way sane in when she got hammered with the Ladymantle. Etc etc etc.
Twelve Months looks to be "milder" in many ways, but if so it's likely to be just a calm-before-the-storm mildness.
Thing is -- I was actually liking the direction Murphy was going.
Her big-family experiences were giving her some good perspectives to share with orphaned Harry. As for the "action hero" schtick, remember: she's been watching Harry for years, he taught her to cheat. Surprise Freydis with a minimal move relying mostly on close-in balance (very aikido); then surprise her with grenades. Murphy could't keep winning indefinitely, against all foes; but she can keep taking advantage of expectations.
Aikido emphasizes a reflective & wisdom-oriented approach; the founder was a very spiritual man, active with Shinto. A senior aikidoka who is facing enforced quiet, long periods alone with their thoughts, is likely to have some pretty deep thinking to share.
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Was Bradley at the site of the shooting?
I thought he was with the kids.
I need to re-read BG!
Apparently he was away, as vincentric pointed out. My bad, I misremembered that (it's been a few year). However, he still promised Harry that Rudolph would be brought to justice, because he saw Murphy's corpse before she was yoinked to Valhalla. Honestly, Rudolph is more secure being imprisoned than if he'd skate on a technicality, because Harry would not let that go. I guess we'll see in Twelve Months.
But that becomes a "roll your eyes" problem, I know that is difficult for her devoted fans, but there it is. It was beginning to become a problem for the story, Murphy, yes, good at hand to hand combat, but as she gets older and injured still takes down just about everyone? Suddenly she all the wisdom of the world? I could go on, but that was the problem, she stopped being realistic, it was more give me a break... That's why Jim had to kill her off, and if she is brought back too soon, what's new there? Other than as one of Odin's fighters she does what she always did? Her fans will love that I know and respect that, but in my opinion it hurts the story.
Yeah, well, you're a known "not fan" of her, therefore I have to politely point out that your opinion is therefore also quite biased. Personally, I'd rather see her brought back rather sooner than later, but even then it will probably be only after Mirror Mirror, i.e. in three books at the soonest. Which seems plenty time to me, especially with Jims writing rythm still not being what it was (and the books getting longer and longer as well).
That she will return is now a certainty for me and Jims comment to my question in the Q&A indicated to me that it won't be without Murphy herself working on it from her side, which indicates it won't be just before or during the BAT. That may be optimistic expectations on my side, but Jim put up the barriers around Harry to prevent him from entering any serious romance (i.e. magic chastity belt for Molly, Lara being a dead fish romantically) for the time being.
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It is not Bradley who says Rudolph will pay, it is Butters.
Yeah, well, you're a known "not fan" of her, therefore I have to politely point out that your opinion is therefore also quite biased. Personally, I'd rather see her brought back rather sooner than later, but even then it will probably be only after Mirror Mirror, i.e. in three books at the soonest. Which seems plenty time to me, especially with Jims writing rythm still not being what it was (and the books getting longer and longer as well).
I have to strongly agree with everything said here.
Now about this:
That she will return is now a certainty for me and Jims comment to my question in the Q&A indicated to me that it won't be without Murphy herself working on it from her side, which indicates it won't be just before or during the BAT. That may be optimistic expectations on my side, but Jim put up the barriers around Harry to prevent him from entering any serious romance (i.e. magic chastity belt for Molly, Lara being a dead fish romantically) for the time being.
I'm not certain Murph will be back, the way Jim has been writing things lately, but I confess I lost a lot of faith in him after PT/BG. But if she does, and I want to believe his answer to your question does merit to have at least some optimism, I don't think we'll need to wait until the BAT either, it'll happen before.
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It is not Bradley who says Rudolph will pay, it is Butters.
Damn, I really should look up things in the book before fishing it out of my, ever more faulty, memory banks. Anyway, we'll see how it goes in the next book. It'd be inconceivable that Jim would not address this in some way.
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I'm not certain Murph will be back, the way Jim has been writing things lately, but I confess I lost a lot of faith in him after PT/BG. But if she does, and I want to believe his answer to your question does merit to have at least some optimism, I don't think we'll need to wait until the BAT either, it'll happen before.
As the old proverb says, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it!" If she does come back, you can bet it is only to make Harry suffer more..
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As the old proverb says, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it!" If she does come back, you can bet it is only to make Harry suffer more..
Everything is designed to make Harry (and through him, us) suffer more. As Jim said in the Q&A, he doesn't get to torture the readers, so he does it to Harry. ;D
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I am surprised Jim hasn’t had Harry suffer from the norovirus aka Winter Vomiting Bug, clearly one of Mab’s nastier inventions, during a case.
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I am surprised Jim hasn’t had Harry suffer from the norovirus aka Winter Vomiting Bug, clearly one of Mab’s nastier inventions, during a case.
Probably because that would be a rather boring story set between Harry's bed and his toilet. Except if it involved conjuritis resulting in Mr Hankey the Christmas Poo messing with Toot Toot and contaminating all the pizza.
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I mean’t during a case having to fight a bad guy and explosive diarrhoea at the same time, and with Harry the emphasis is likely to be on the explosive side.
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Everything is designed to make Harry (and through him, us) suffer more. As Jim said in the Q&A, he doesn't get to torture the readers, so he does it to Harry. ;D
Thank you, my point.. ;) Also give thought as to why you love her so much and if you'd still love her after all these twists and turns to bring her back? That's my problem with the character, I liked her when she was a good,strong,smart cop who worked with Harry, kept him on his toes and was a good friend as well as a critic. I think her previous reasons stated to him for not wanting their friendship to be more in I think was Proven Guilty are still valid. I began to have problems with her once she was fired and Jim didn't know quite what to do with her. I still don't think he does, while the idea of turning her into Mab or a Valkyrie may be appealing to those who want her back.. My response is, really? She won't be Murphy anymore because her perspective won't be what it once was. It changes everything, not unlike Ivy/Archive, when Ivy was a little girl her relationship with both Harry and Kincaid was very different from what it is now as young adult, Ivy, the Archive.. I loved the old relationships as well, but they had to change to be believable. Why? Because the perspective of a more mature Ivy changed, she sees both Harry and Kincaid differently.
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Having Harry have to adjust to a new dynamic with Murphy after she died would certainly put Harry through the wringer. As presumably an Einenjharen can be resurrected multiple times, Harry may get to see Murphy die multiple times, Jim could get to kill her off once per book in ever inventive ways and Harry not know whether this time it was final.
Also I bet the first thing they do on their reunion is the thing Harry tried last, a soul gaze, but it doesn’t work because Murphy is no longer human enough. More anguish for Harry about lost opportunity, and wondering whether Murphy is Murphy anymore.
Oh and Harry needs to get audited by the IRS “you were dead for 6 months?, we get a lot of people trying that one” “so you were just given this castle?””you are claiming two children as dependents, and yet there is no sign of this ‘Bonita Dresden’”you say your dog does your accounts?” If it isn’t in NEXT BOOK it needs to be.
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Thank you, my point.. ;) Also give thought as to why you love her so much and if you'd still love her after all these twists and turns to bring her back? That's my problem with the character, I liked her when she was a good,strong,smart cop who worked with Harry, kept him on his toes and was a good friend as well as a critic. I think her previous reasons stated to him for not wanting their friendship to be more in I think was Proven Guilty are still valid. I began to have problems with her once she was fired and Jim didn't know quite what to do with her. I still don't think he does, while the idea of turning her into Mab or a Valkyrie may be appealing to those who want her back.. My response is, really? She won't be Murphy anymore because her perspective won't be what it once was. It changes everything, not unlike Ivy/Archive, when Ivy was a little girl her relationship with both Harry and Kincaid was very different from what it is now as young adult, Ivy, the Archive.. I loved the old relationships as well, but they had to change to be believable. Why? Because the perspective of a more mature Ivy changed, she sees both Harry and Kincaid differently.
People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.
I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.
So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.
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People change, but at the core they mostly stay the same. I still love Harry, despite him having to deal with rage issues due to the Winter Mantle (which got pretty ooky in Cold Days, before he got a handle on it in the books after that). I still love his character, despite him giving up a lot of his ideals for a more pragmatic approach over the last few books.
However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
I can deal with Murphy changing as well, as long as she is, at her core, still Murphy. Having some powers (which she had before, when wielding the swords, btw) doesn't change that and adding some conflict by having conflicting loyalties doesn't do so, either.
There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out. However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are. Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other. So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman. There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken. If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.
So, yeah, I want her back, with new problems to solve.
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
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... There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them...
The "power" the KotS's have isn't exactly personal power, no. It's the "power" to not be overwhelmed or overmatched by any degree of supernatural power, no matter how huge that power is.
But it's not exactly not personal power, either.
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However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
There you are mistaken, a Holy Knight has no "power," not of his or her own anyway, the angel of the Sword works through them, strict rules apply, as Murphy sadly found out. However the whole time she wielded the Sword, she was merely a vanilla human, as Michael,Sanya, Butters, and Shiro are. Susan was the exception since she was half vamp, however the Sword didn't effect that one way or the other. So Murphy was a mere vanilla human until the day she was murdered, it only seemed like she had power because she was being turned into Wonder Woman. There are rules for Odin's soldiers and for Valkyrie as well that cannot be broken. If she gets power and comes back she will have to play by a new set of rules, from a new perspective, she won't be the same person.
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.
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Okay, I don't know how to have a good discussion with someone who clearly has a different definition of what constitutes a "person". I didn't like Murphy because of her "function" as the normie of the group, I liked her because of her personality, of her way of interacting with people. If she came back with Valkyrie powers and some conflicts of loyalty, that would not change her basic personality, that would just add conflict to her relation with Harry. Her intrinsic value to me as a character is not in her position as the "one without powers" in Dresdens coterie, but in what she provides as a person. So, sorry, but I don't put much trust in your predictive powers, which you clearly are trying to exercise here. Murphy will be as much the same person after returning as Harry was after coming back from being nursed back to health by Mab.
100% agree with this take above.
However Harry didn't change, he always had magical talent, and when his brain was occupied with Lasciel's shadow, he had to deal with rage issues then as well when it came to Hell Fire. With the Winter Knight's Mantle he got a bit stronger, and had to deal with primal urges he didn't have before, but he got a handle on them and remained Harry.
If Harry went through all of that and we can say he didn't "change", sure that's a valid thing to say. Though to be honest, people evolve and change according to circumstances they live through, I don't think it's just a matter of the physical parts (ie being a wizard or human, etc), that's such a limiting view, but ymmv.
Anyway, we can only say he's still him because we've seen him after each and every one of those "challenges" or "transformations" coming out victorious, so to speak, still himself. We have not seen Murphy after her "transformation", so how would it be possible to be so sure that she won't be herself? Because of the physical aspect? That doesn't hold up.
Her body perhaps, but it won't be the Murphy you remembered and loved. True, you could love her more, or sadly you may wish that Jim had let the dead rest in peace.
Maybe not the one you loved/liked, if you ever did, because clearly you see her differently than some of us, but this is a repeat argument from 3 years ago, with no evidence to support it. We have not seen the aftermath for Murphy yet, and nothing similar is touched on the mythos of the series yet, so, how she comes back, if she even does, "changed" or not, is still mostly a mystery until future books.
And even if she changed, I dunno why it wouldn't be something the fans of hers wouldn't want? Why assume the change would be a bad one in the first place? But even if it was, Harry has taken blow after blow, jobs and mantles on himself and he's, let's say "evolved" not necessarily in a positive way, he's extremely flawed at this point, but for most fans, it seems, it has made him more interesting. Murphy fans will know if maybe the same applies to her.
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And even if she changed, I dunno why it wouldn't be something the fans of hers wouldn't want? Why assume the change would be a bad one in the first place? But even if it was, Harry has taken blow after blow, jobs and mantles on himself and he's, let's say "evolved" not necessarily in a positive way, he's extremely flawed at this point, but for most fans, it seems, it has made him more interesting. Murphy fans will know if maybe the same applies to her.
In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore.. No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.
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In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore.. No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.
In any case, we'll see, the series isn't over yet. And if my opinion of her doesn't matter, obviously neither does yours.
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Moreover, Murphy already has gone through big of personal outlook (and position in life) during the last five books and she still was Murphy at her core.
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In any case, we'll see, the series isn't over yet. And if my opinion of her doesn't matter, obviously neither does yours.
I, for one never said your opinion doesn't matter, it does, and you are entitled to it.. I just disagree with the idea, and attempt to support why I do so. I am also entitled to my opinion, it also matters, that's how it works..
Moreover, Murphy already has gone through big of personal outlook (and position in life) during the last five books and she still was Murphy at her core.
Is she? Is that even a good thing? Don't know, maybe it would be. She has been murdered in a stupid way by a guy that is arguably insane, but still last we heard an influential member of law enforcement. That might change her just a bit.. Now granted that might be an interesting read, but we won't be reading about the Murphy you think you know. That's just an opinion..
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In any case, she won't be Murphy anymore.. No matter what your opinion of her turns out to be.
Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.
And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.
But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.
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Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.
And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.
But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.
Yeah, I don't see either why she suddenly would stop being Murphy, only because her circumstances have changed. A person is defined by her outlook on life, how she treats with others, how she feels about herself. While some of those facets would of course be altered by dying and being brought back (Harry sure did have to adjust), at her core Murphy would still be herself.
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But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.
No, I'm arguing that there is a good chance she won't be.. I am also questioning what do her fans want her to be? What was it they loved about her before and what if that aspect of her changes will they still be happy? There are different forces playing with her this time.. Also as far as her "core" goes, Nic called that one into question when he tricked her into breaking a Holy Sword. Yes, I know it all worked out, but.... I always thought at her core, Murphy was a police officer, their job is to arrest the bad guys, but it is up to a judge and jury to judge, convict, and to punish.. The Holy Swords work the same way, she even said she couldn't be a Knight because she couldn't not judge the Denarians.. Very honest and Murphy, but then when she thinks Harry is in danger, she whips out the Sword, which apparently she had anticipated,so doing something she said she wouldn't do, put the Sword in danger because of her beliefs and why she said Harry couldn't be trusted to be their custodian.. Then when she has Nic on the ropes seemingly, instead of calling his bluff and accepting his surrender, the noose, and the coin, she plays judge as he anticipated, and breaks the Sword and gets her butt totally kicked.. So what messed with her core here? Love for Harry, yeah, a good thing, but it proves that her core values can be shattered.
That little bit of backsliding that could have ended in disaster, [yeah, I know it didn't] has never been discussed between Harry and Murphy. He discussed it somewhat with Michael, but not Murphy. Does she feel any guilt over her major screw up? Question any of her actions? Or because it turned out okay in the end with Butters getting a Holy Light Saber she can rationalize it away? Because what she did, she did out of love, well sort of, until she played judge and jury to execute Nic. Which also failed I might add. I think that would be interesting, mainly because she often plays the wise one in any talk her and Harry have...
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Harry got imprinted with the shadow of a Fallen Angel, spent years with her inside his skull.
He died -- dead enough to ghost-around for days -- and came back to life.
He's saddled with the personality-warping influences of a Winter Mantle.
Yes, well, he was mostly dead... He managed to fight both with his stronger than average will.
And yet, you say, Harry's still Harry at his core.
Yup, why you ask? Because he is a star born, he is also a wizard, he isn't an ordinary vanilla human.. At his core he is a star born powerful wizard, now events might outwardly change him, but at his core, what doesn't change is he is a star born powerful wizard.. That gives him a stronger than average will, which so far has kept most of his values in tact.. Recognized by Heaven apparently because he was gifted with Soul Fire.
But you seem adamant that Murphy cannot still be Murphy...?
I don't see anything to prevent her from still being herself (given the precedents that Jim has written)... except that you don't want her to be.
Really? She was an ordinary vanilla human at her core, love, hate, the whole nine yards.. She has been stupidly murdered, she was then selected to be a member of the Valhalla club to fight for Odin in the final battle.. What is her emotional make up these days? So the Einherjar, the plural of Einheri, literally 'army of one', so they're the most fearsome and brutal of warriors according to Google. So do Einherjar even have an emotional core? You honestly believe that Murphy won't change?
As the old proverb goes, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it..." That goes for Harry as well, he may wish her back, be glad at first to see Murphy come back, but in the end wish that she had been allowed to rest in peace.
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... Also as far as her "core" goes, Nic called that one into question when he tricked her into breaking a Holy Sword ...
No.
Nic tricked her into making Esperacchius vulnerable.
It was Nic who actually broke the blade.
But please note: the Leanansidhe similarly tricked Harry into making Amoracchius vulnerable; this was every bit as much a violation of Harry's own ethics for himself, as it was for Murphy.
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As the old proverb goes, "be careful for what you wish for, you may get it..." That goes for Harry as well, he may wish her back, be glad at first to see Murphy come back, but in the end wish that she had been allowed to rest in peace.
The point here is, Murphy was able to see beyond the very suspicious behaviour Harry was exhibiting in Skin Game (which Butters couldn't, but listed out very succinctly), because she trusted that Harry was still, at his core, the same person. I can't see Harry not doing the same if Murphy comes back with some minor changes in her outlook. I'm confident that at her core, she'll still be the same person, just as Harry is still the same guy from book one where it counts.
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The point here is, Murphy was able to see beyond the very suspicious behaviour Harry was exhibiting in Skin Game (which Butters couldn't, but listed out very succinctly), because she trusted that Harry was still, at his core, the same person. I can't see Harry not doing the same if Murphy comes back with some minor changes in her outlook. I'm confident that at her core, she'll still be the same person, just as Harry is still the same guy from book one where it counts.
Yes, exactly.
Besides, so far, in the books, Einherjar don't seem like a brainless soldiers, they seem to enjoy the battle, yes, as we see in Battle Ground, but we also have instances in Ghost Story and Peace Talks, where they seem just like any other person.
I'm curious, what do you make of this comment by Gard to Harry? It's from Changes where they go to Odin's stronghold in the mortal world (Ch21):
“The leader of the guards eyed us both suspiciously for a moment, then said something quietly and all the rifles stopped pointing at me. Two guards returned to stand on either side of a doorway. Two more took up a station facing Gard and me, evidently cautious about getting more company through the same Way we'd just used. The rest returned to a couple of card tables and a few sleeping cots.”
“Einherjar. Give them a little sip of renewed mortality, and four thousand years of discipline go right out the window”
The whole passage in Changes about this is intriguing in light of what Murph is supposed to be now.
Also, Molly is another character that has gone through some things, to say the least, and she is the one character that acquired a mantle that is actually meant to completely change who and what she is, and yet, she's still herself, mostly. Why would Murph be the only character to do a 180? Besides, what exactly would be the point of recruiting her for who she is if the "mantle" (to call it something) of the Einherjar is going to undo her, right?
This argument that somehow, "she's gonna come back wrong" alla Buffy, doesn't really hold-up, at least until we see the aftermath in the coming books and how much of the norse mythology that we can look up on google is sustained in the books. So far, Jim has twisted different myths at his convenience.
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Also, Sigrun and Freydis Gard are both pretty cool persons underneath their warrior women role. I don't see how Murphy would not fit right in with them.
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Also, Sigrun and Freydis Gard are both pretty cool persons underneath their warrior women role. I don't see how Murphy would not fit right in with them.
Oh, that's another interesting possibility! Considering that Murph is the type of person who might want to subvert the rules as Jim himself said, and that we still don't know for a fact how Valkyries come to be. Heorot hints at them not being the "virgin daughters" (as some myths say, and not even all of them say the same thing), and in Aftermath, Gard suggests that Odin might be interested in offering Murph a position for which she even has the hair for, it wouldn't be outlandish to think that there is a chance that Valkyrie is a "position" one isn't born into but one can access to, so who knows, if it's a promotion from the Einherjar position, Murph would be the kind of person to aspire to it.
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Oh, that's another interesting possibility! Considering that Murph is the type of person who might want to subvert the rules as Jim himself said, and that we still don't know for a fact how Valkyries come to be. Heorot hints at them not being the "virgin daughters" (as some myths say, and not even all of them say the same thing), and in Aftermath, Gard suggests that Odin might be interested in offering Murph a position for which she even has the hair for, it wouldn't be outlandish to think that there is a chance that Valkyrie is a "position" one isn't born into but one can access to, so who knows, if it's a promotion from the Einherjar position, Murph would be the kind of person to aspire to it.
That is pretty much exactly how I theorize how it will go. We'll see. :)
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Also, Sigrun and Freydis Gard are both pretty cool persons underneath their warrior women role. I don't see how Murphy would not fit right in with them.
And not to say that Vadderung/Odin can't be progressive, but we haven't seen any female Einherjar or any male Valkyries. Perhaps his magic works differently for men and women.
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And not to say that Vadderung/Odin can't be progressive, but we haven't seen any female Einherjar or any male Valkyries. Perhaps his magic works differently for men and women.
Gard seemed to accept that she wouldn't see her human lover anytime soon though apparently he will become an Einherjar at some point. What she didn't say since she is immortal I believe, if she'd ever see him because she isn't going to forget him any time soon..
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Not immortal, ageless, big difference immortal means can’t be killed as Odin showed in BGmost Fae are ageless but not immortal, they can and do die, an immortal will self-resurrect like Odin, Erl, Mab .
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Not immortal, ageless, big difference immortal means can’t be killed as Odin showed in BGmost Fae are ageless but not immortal, they can and do die, an immortal will self-resurrect like Odin, Erl, Mab .
Like Tolkien's Elves, but the my main point is Gard doesn't think she will see her lover again, and obviously doubts that the her desire will be the exception to the rule.
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She is ageless which means Hendricks will continue to live on in her memory, preventing him from coming back unless she dies. She realises this unless she is exempt from living memory.
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Thinking about it, the easiest way for Murphy (or Hendricks) to be used again will probably be in the "wrestling" book.
As part of the favor Harry owes Vadderung, he and Gard could be sent to the Norse Valhalla in the Never Never and encounter them there.
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Thinking about it, the easiest way for Murphy (or Hendricks) to be used again will probably be in the "wrestling" book.
As part of the favor Harry owes Vadderung, he and Gard could be sent to the Norse Valhalla in the Never Never and encounter them there.
Maybe, but only I think if something happens to Harry's mind and he is suffering from amnesia and doesn't know who she is.
Here is what Gard says in Battle Ground pages 365-366
1] What an Einherjar is
She waved a hand vaguely at her temple. "It's a limited intellectus, of the honored dead, of their deeds.
So now a limited intellectus, but still dead.. Harry suddenly has hope on the next page that if she is Einherjar he will see her again... But Gard replies
I nodded. Then after a while, I said, "If she is Einherjar now. . ."
Gard shook her head. "Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is the limit not even the Allfather can cross."
Harry replies that she wasn't very forgettable, and Gard agrees.. However a cosmic rule is a cosmic rule, these things cannot be broken without grave consequences. I take Gard at her word,in these matters she is the expert.
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Murphy wouldn't be returning the world, Harry and Gard would be seeing her and Hendricks in Valhalla while seeking information.
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Harry replies that she wasn't very forgettable, and Gard agrees.. However a cosmic rule is a cosmic rule, these things cannot be broken without grave consequences. I take Gard at her word,in these matters she is the expert.
As we all know, Harry will break all seven laws of magic by the end of the series. I'm pretty sure that he (and Murphy) will be able to circumvent this just made up "cosmic rule" (who made it a "cosmic rule", btw? Or did you just come up with that?) as well.
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At one point it is stated that the Einenjharen have up to four millennia of experience. I find that hard to believe given Odin’s mythological time-line as this would suggest Odin has had Soulfire for 4,000 years, very much pre-Christian. It may suggest that the Einenjharen have returned from the far future when then have been forgotten.
I wonder therefore if Murphy is going to return but more than 2,000 years old. I hope Harry likes older women.
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As we all know, Harry will break all seven laws of magic by the end of the series. I'm pretty sure that he (and Murphy) will be able to circumvent this just made up "cosmic rule" (who made it a "cosmic rule", btw? Or did you just come up with that?) as well.
Gard says it in Battle Ground, but yeah, we still don't know who made the rule.
I think it's possible that they meet again because of something Harry does (which IMO is necessary even for that relationship) but I think it's more likely that JB makes it about Murphy doing most of the work.
At one point it is stated that the Einenjharen have up to four millennia of experience. I find that hard to believe given Odin’s mythological time-line as this would suggest Odin has had Soulfire for 4,000 years, very much pre-Christian. It may suggest that the Einenjharen have returned from the far future when then have been forgotten.
I believe it's in this passage from Changes
The leader of the guards eyed us both suspiciously for a moment, then said something quietly and all the rifles stopped pointing at me. Two guards returned to stand on either side of a doorway. Two more took up a station facing Gard and me, evidently cautious about getting more company through the same Way we'd just used. The rest returned to a couple of card tables and a few sleeping cots.
“Einherjar. Give them a little sip of renewed mortality, and four thousand years of discipline go right out the window”
Now that's an interesting thing, I believe it was in WoJs that we're told one of the uses of soulfire is to bring to life the Einherjar, so, if it's pre-christian, then it doesn't go with another WoJ where he said Odin got the soulfire when the christian god took over or something like that. But I guess it could be questionable since those two tidbits of information are not in the books while the 4000 years thing is on them.
I wonder therefore if Murphy is going to return but more than 2,000 years old. I hope Harry likes older women.
Fair question. I really hope the whole time travel thing doesn't become such a heavy feature of the story, though, but that's personal preference.
About the older women, lol, well, Murph is already aprox 3 years older, then there's Luccio too. Plus, if we ask other fans who believe there is attraction for Lash and Lara, well, those ladies are older too. LOL, actually a 2043 year old Murphy fits better with that group! ::)
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Now that's an interesting thing, I believe it was in WoJs that we're told one of the uses of soulfire is to bring to life the Einherjar, so, if it's pre-christian, then it doesn't go with another WoJ where he said Odin got the soulfire when the christian god took over or something like that. But I guess it could be questionable since those two tidbits of information are not in the books while the 4000 years thing is on them.
Archangels were around since the beginning of time, so before Christ.. Soul fire has been around since there were angels. It could be that it was a deal Odin made with the Creator to allow for the conversion of the mortal humans who worshiped him as a god.
As we all know, Harry will break all seven laws of magic by the end of the series. I'm pretty sure that he (and Murphy) will be able to circumvent this just made up "cosmic rule" (who made it a "cosmic rule", btw? Or did you just come up with that?) as well.
I call it a cosmic rule because quoting Gard, "That is the limit not even the Allfather can cross." Not made up, but a real limit. If Odin cannot go past that limit, it sounds like a cosmic rule to me, set down by someone more powerful, the Creator perhaps?
You are comparing apples to oranges, yes, Harry might break all Seven Laws of Magic before he is done, but those are still laws set up by mortal wizards, even Merlin himself was a mortal. The limit that the Allfather cannot cross, isn't a limit set by mortals. At the end of the day, Murphy is still dead, she may be Einherjar with limited Intellectus, which hasn't been defined yet, but she is still dead.
Murphy wouldn't be returning the world, Harry and Gard would be seeing her and Hendricks in Valhalla while seeking information.
Now that sounds plausible, but then again if it were that simple you'd think that Gard wouldn't be so upset over the loss of Hendricks. As a Valkyrie you'd think she could go see him in Valhalla at any time.. I think it's that pesky "limit," that cannot be crossed.. I'm not saying Jim won't find a way around it, but as I said be careful for what you wish for... Crossing those kinds of limits have real consequences.
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I call it a cosmic rule because quoting Gard, "That is the limit not even the Allfather can cross." Not made up, but a real limit. If Odin cannot go past that limit, it sounds like a cosmic rule to me, set down by someone more powerful, the Creator perhaps?
You are comparing apples to oranges, yes, Harry might break all Seven Laws of Magic before he is done, but those are still laws set up by mortal wizards, even Merlin himself was a mortal. The limit that the Allfather cannot cross, isn't a limit set by mortals. At the end of the day, Murphy is still dead, she may be Einherjar with limited Intellectus, which hasn't been defined yet, but she is still dead.
Eh, dead is relative here. The Einherjar we've seen are walking around just fine. And, yeah, I believe Harry can break "cosmic laws" if he puts his mind to it. Also, to be honest, I find it all too suspicious how suddenly that "you totally can't see each other" plopped out of nowhere with Murphy dying and then getting revived. Seems like a placeholder to me, to keep Harry miserable for a while, just like putting a magic chastity belt on Molly to prevent a relationship developing there.
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Kringle is a bona fide time traveller with the sanction of the White God, as Odin he is bound not to bring back an Einenjharen until they are lost to living memory. As Kringle he can bring them back in time to when they are needed. He just calls them his ‘elves’. If so his sanction pass is at its strongest on Christmas, and it is significant we haven’t seen anything beyond Christmas Eve. What if Christmas Day Murphy is back?
This sounds like EXACTLY the sort of cheat Odin wanted the Kringle Mantle for, not just to regain his immortality.
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Jim wanted to take Murphy out of the story, but with an in-built cheat mechanism to later use her character again. It stands to reason therefore that getting her back will just be as hard or easy as Jim needs it to be to happen at the right moment. That Murphy will return at some point is pretty much guaranteed, otherwise Jim wouldn't have made her an Einherjar. I just think it'll be sooner rather than later.
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RE the einherjar and soulfire, and:
... another WoJ where he said Odin got the soulfire when the christian god took over or something like that...
And then the quote
“Einherjar. Give them a little sip of renewed mortality, and four thousand years of discipline go right out the window”
There are IMO several (relatively-easy) resolutions.
First and most-trivial: Sigrun Gard is likely an unreliable narrator, just like Harry himself. Four thousand years, two thousand years, meh... no difference, really.
Second: while "Christianity" is explicitly 2000 years old, the "Christian God" is explicitly the same as the Jewish God, and thus thousands of years older (the Exodus from Egypt being about 1500BC).
Third: despite what many think, the Norse "old ways" aren't all that old. The Eddas were 13th C; the "Viking Age" began about year 800; and the oldest examples of Eldest Futhark runes and other "Proto-Norse" inscriptions are from the 2nd C. Obviously, these represented an extant culture & tradition, not something brand-new. But it puts the origins of Norse ways REMARKABLY close in time to the beginning of Christianity, hmmm?
No reason at all that Young Odin couldn't have made a deal with post-Christ Yahweh, and then Soulfire'd some centuries-old warrior-ghosts (think Sir Stuart) to jumpstart his corps of fighters.
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No reason at all that Young Odin couldn't have made a deal with post-Christ Yahweh, and then Soulfire'd some centuries-old warrior-ghosts (think Sir Stuart) to jumpstart his corps of fighters.
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He could have made a deal with post-Christ Yahweh. Theory, Odin knows he will need an army at some point for Ragnarok, but only Yahweh has archangels etc... So he comes up with the idea of using the best human warriors that died in battle to fight for him. However they are dead, he needs soul fire to animate them and give them limited intellectus.. No, idea what Yahweh gets in return.. ::)
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... he needs soul fire to animate them and give them limited intellectus...
I think it's specifically the Valkyries who have the intellectus, and the intellectus is about the deeds & heroism of einherjaren, so they (the Valk's) make good choices.
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I think it's specifically the Valkyries who have the intellectus, and the intellectus is about the deeds & heroism of einherjaren, so they (the Valk's) make good choices.
Here is the wording from Gard on page 365 of Battle Ground;
She waved her hand vaguely at her temple. "It's a limited intellectus, of the honored dead, of their deeds."
She doesn't say it is her intellectus, but " intellectus of the honored dead, of their deeds." The Valkyrie select the dead warriors based on their lives and how they died. In Valhalla the dead warriors live,party, train, fight, get torn apart, some die again, to live again, be put back together, live again in the halls, party and do it all over again.
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Here is the wording from Gard on page 365 of Battle Ground;
She waved her hand vaguely at her temple. "It's a limited intellectus, of the honored dead, of their deeds."
She doesn't say it is her intellectus, but " intellectus of the honored dead, of their deeds." The Valkyrie select the dead warriors based on their lives and how they died...
<nod> Just so.
She waves at her own temple, and she describes the intellectus needed to be a Chooser of the Slain.
The intellectus she describes isn't really ... relevant to an einherjar. It isn't like it's an intellectus of combat-syles, of martial arts.
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The White God has a proscription about the heavy hitters being in the mortal world, we aren’t told this, but we see it in action, The Queensare as powerful as is required.
We know Odin traded away the majority of his power to stay in the mortal world and needs the Kringle mantle to retain his immortality. He presumably made a deal with Uriel to surrender thats what the White God got - the remainder of Odin’s godhood and presumably that of his sons. This probably went into making the mantles in the first place. The Mothers answer to the names of the Norns for example.
In return Odin gets Soulfire at the time of Christ. He later gets the Kringle mantle say at the 13th Century. Do you know what Kringle means?
From Wikipedia
Kringle (/ˈkrɪŋɡəl/, listenⓘ) is a Northern European pastry, a variety of pretzel. Pretzels were introduced by Roman Catholic monks in the 13th century in Denmark, and from there they spread throughout Scandinavia and evolved into several kinds of sweet, salty or filled pastries, all in the shape of kringle.
Twisted or knotty like a pretzel describes Odin perfectly. And the timing fits perfectly. Jim uses words and names purposefully. At the same time we get the Christmas gift givers in multiple cultures start to arise, reinforcing the Christmas mythos.
Odin himself used the Valknut, Kringle uses the Kringle, both are knots.
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I'm skipping several pages of posts because I want to (briefly) talk about Murphy. Remember that after Susan got half-turned into a red court vampire she came back for exactly two books. There was many times when Harry mentioned Susan, but only two times after Grave Peril did she play a significant role in Harry's story.
I suspect that if; who am I kidding, when Murphy returns it will be a one and done story. At most she might be in two books if we get something like Peace Talks / Battle Ground again. I don't think anything like that will happen until the BAT. I don't see Murphy returning as Harry's new semi-permanent Valkyrie sidekick or Einherjar buddy. She will come back for a specific purpose and help Harry in a case that will end up requiring Murphy to use her new abilities to help Harry. Beyond that I won't speculate any further. Ok, I'll make one guess. Harry owes Vadderung a favor. Helping Harry pay off that debt would be good reason for Murphy to return.
If I am right, this could assuage fears that Murphy's return to the series would be forced and poorly written. I thought Susan's new abilities worked pretty well in Death Masks. A Murphy with new abilities, but also one with new responsibilities and new limits imposed on her could work well for a single story.
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If this were a series with an unlimited number of books coming, it's not impossible that Jim would be working towards a new significant relationship for Harry. However, we are at book 17 of what either will be 22 + 3 books or 25 + 3 books (depending if I heard correctly that the number of books has grown to the latter. I might simply have misunderstood Jim there, too). That means, to me, unless the endgame for Harry is Molly, which I don't believe it is, it will very probably still be Murphy as his significant other. I don't see a new serious romantic interest popping up just a few books before things get really hairy with the BAT. Therefore, as soon as Murphy comes back, she'll probably stay for good.
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I actually like Lara as a continuing love interest. She won't be as hands-on as Murphy (As an active sidekick at least, personal life will be the exact opposite.) but if she's assigning Freydis to him and giving him money and information then she taking over Murphy's roles. ...
And wouldn't it be like Jim to remove Harry's protection and still have Harry's touch burn her when he kisses the bride.
I agree that there is some chemistry between Harry and Lara, even if she is a monster. I could see a bond building between them during the next story. I suppose that at some point the dates between them will collide with Harry dealing with supernatural shenanigans. Near the end of the story during the final date both Harry and Lara are forced to fight, but not simply to survive. Each of them will be willing to lay down their life to help the other survive, neither of them knowing the other is still up and fighting. (Or some variation of this scenario.) No greater love than to lay down your life for another. So Lara getting burned by Harry on their wedding day isn't an impossible idea, just an unlikely one.
I know this idea is more than a little fanfictionee. (Yes, I just made up a new word. Deal with it. :P) Aside from being a shipper's delight it would create a real dilemma for Lara. if the members of the White Court found out Lara had fallen in love it would probably destroy her credibility as the leader of the Court. I don't think Mab would very happy with this turn of events either. She talked about combining bloodlines. That couldn't happen if Lara gets burned every time she touches Harry. Plus, Harry would also be tortured by both his desire for Lara and the Winter mantle pushing him to rip her cloths off.
I know someone out there is thinking that Harry knows that Justine found a way around this dilemma, but would Harry want to share this idea with Lara? It's not something he would be comfortable with, but I'm pretty sure that Lara wouldn't have a problem with it.
What I think is far more likely to happen is a that a real bond will appear to be forming between Harry and Lara, but Lara's demon will assert itself in a really nasty way and this will derail any possibility of a lasting romantic relationship between these two characters.
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Harry is not the casual sex type, he will only get romantically involved with someone he believes lives him. This was only reinforced by Luccio’ s love being a chemical Sham. Harry would need to love Lara and I don’t think that is possible. She might however certainly end up loving Harry.
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Harry is not the casual sex type, he will only get romantically involved with someone he believes lives him. This was only reinforced by Luccio’ s love being a chemical Sham. Harry would need to love Lara and I don’t think that is possible. She might however certainly end up loving Harry.
I seriously don't see it. She's the controlling type all-around and Harry is not the kind of person who can be controlled or would appreciate attempts to control him. See his constant head-butting with Mab and Marcone.
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If I am right, this could assuage fears that Murphy's return to the series would be forced and poorly written. I thought Susan's new abilities worked pretty well in Death Masks. A Murphy with new abilities, but also one with new responsibilities and new limits imposed on her could work well for a single story.
Yes, only to have her turn into a bitter woman in Changes! Yes, I get she was out of her mind with anxiety over her daughter, but did that justify her vitriol against Harry during that first meeting? Or her final shattering sacrifice at the end when she realized she had been duped and used all along by Martin? It did move the story along, that's true.
The intellectus she describes isn't really ... relevant to an einherjar. It isn't like it's an intellectus of combat-syles, of martial arts.
But it is, why? Because these are dead warriors etc., expected to fight for Odin in the big future battle.. They are not "spirits" or ghosts, but neither are they merely animated corpses, they have limited intellectus, that is how they function. I also found a reference as to why they are not allowed to return until all living memory of them has passed. I found a blurb when I Googled about old Norse religion, and talked about the "undead" returning and if someone who knew them saw them it was a very bad omen of impending death among other things.. True, they are then called something else, but imagine knowing your dead warrior father was taken to Valhalla, then see him walking the earth seemingly alive? So there is a serious reason for that limit that Gard talked about that even the Allfather may not cross.
What I think is far more likely to happen is a that a real bond will appear to be forming between Harry and Lara, but Lara's demon will assert itself in a really nasty way and this will derail any possibility of a lasting romantic relationship between these two characters.
I agree with this, though they might form a good working partnership, which they have already done from time to time. Two sticking points; 1] Thomas, can he be cured, and if he is, will he ever be the same again? If the cure kills the demon,but by some miracle not Thomas, would Lara be okay with that? Somehow I doubt it. 2] Eb, he cannot deal with a half vamp grandson, how is he going to handle a full vamp daughter in law? Hopefully we will find out where Eb's at this point almost irrational hate of vamps comes from.
Harry is not the casual sex type, he will only get romantically involved with someone he believes lives him. This was only reinforced by Luccio’ s love being a chemical Sham. Harry would need to love Lara and I don’t think that is possible. She might however certainly end up loving Harry.
I agree with this, which will really set up a conflict for Lara as opposed to Harry. Harry continued to love Susan even after she was half turned, so loving a vampire is nothing new for him, he also loved his brother, Thomas. Lara does love her family, but for her, humans, even powerful wizards are merely kine, who's emotion is food for her to feed upon. Will she ironically fall victim to true love like her brother Thomas did?
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I seriously don't see it. She's the controlling type all-around and Harry is not the kind of person who can be controlled or would appreciate attempts to control him. See his constant head-butting with Mab and Marcone.
He would like to insert Marcones head up his own butt.
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Actually in my opinion, way back in the White Night days I think there was romantic chemistry between Harry and Lara. Of course a lot of that could be chalked up to merely White Court Vamp Whammy, but then again, Lara is attracted to strong men. I also agree that is unfair to Molly and her and Harry could have gotten something going eventually. The problem with Jim going there is Harry knew Molly since she was a young child, and even though she is a grown up young woman now, for a number of fans it is an ick factor. I never was a fan of the Murphy romance, I liked it better when they were friends and working partners. I liked Murphy much better when she was a tough professional cop, in my opinion her evolution as a character didn't go well and for me it was a relief when she exited the stage. Susan also went off the rails because of the way she was written originally. Luccio might have worked, but it was all about Peabody's ink? Perhaps Jim just has trouble writing romance? If he does, he should leave Harry alone, let him be a father to his kids and eventually a happy grandfather.
I agree, I recall several instances over the years where Harry reacts to Laura and states that it doesn't have anything to do with his mantle or her whammy, but a significant attraction to Laura herself. I liked Harry and Karen, but over the long haul it wasn't going to work without major upgrades to Murphy's character. I think that Jim has been leading us towards this for a while, which means he intends to torture Harry (us) horribly with it not working out... Can you imagine the explosion when the Blackstaff finds out his Grandson is going to marry a Whamp? He's already said that he'll take matters into his own hands regardless of what Harry wants. I think that will be a significant event in Twelve Months.
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Seeing the recently posted Dragoncon 2019 transcript makes me think that Harry and Lara may actually get very close if Harry can take advantage of this:
"If a White Court vampire wants to get you all they have to do is get you alone for a bit and be able to touch you, that's all it really amounts to. But there's this whole issue with White Court vampires and wizards but we haven't gotten to that. Hahahaha, oh it's like heroin."
That implies that Lara and/or Harry may not be willing to stop seeing the other after the initial hookup. It does explain that spark they felt at the end of BG.
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Seeing the recently posted Dragoncon 2019 transcript makes me think that Harry and Lara may actually get very close if Harry can take advantage of this:
"If a White Court vampire wants to get you all they have to do is get you alone for a bit and be able to touch you, that's all it really amounts to. But there's this whole issue with White Court vampires and wizards but we haven't gotten to that. Hahahaha, oh it's like heroin."
This also may help explain how Maggie Sr. got away from Raith père, before he had been crippled by her Death Curse.
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Older wizards are immune to mental influence, so I presume it’s younger wizards like Harry and Carlos that are vulnerable. Maggie Snr may have been on the cusp in breaking away from Papa Raith, it took 5 years.
Given the amount of foreshadowing I think it is going to be Carlos. He has been so priggish about Harry and Lara. I seriously think he is finally going to lose his virginity to ALL of Lara’s sisters, at the same time. And he gets a couple of them pregnant. Cue Harry making jokes about having to support multiple children on a wardens meager salary.
White court vamps have limited fertility, but I expect the chances of conception and successful carrying to term is greatly enhanced by having a wizard as a partner (see Maggie Snr)I also suspect a female Whamp, knows they are pregnant almost immediately, through the creation of a second hunger. House Raith had culled it’s male members in the main line, so Lara’s sisters may be looking to increase their numbers, and secure their power base.
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Seeing the recently posted Dragoncon 2019 transcript makes me think that Harry and Lara may actually get very close if Harry can take advantage of this:
"If a White Court vampire wants to get you all they have to do is get you alone for a bit and be able to touch you, that's all it really amounts to. But there's this whole issue with White Court vampires and wizards but we haven't gotten to that. Hahahaha, oh it's like heroin."
That implies that Lara and/or Harry may not be willing to stop seeing the other after the initial hookup. It does explain that spark they felt at the end of BG.
Or they will agree to partner, but on their own terms, which doesn't necessarily mean marriage. Why? Because it is useful to them, it is a dangerous world.
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Older wizards are immune to mental influence...
Incorrect: Peabody had the entire Senior Council under his mental influence, all of them "older wizards."
Older wizards cannot be mentally controlled (have their wills entirely overriden) without breaking their minds (that the Senior Council knows of; I bet someone in the Dresden Files knows how to do it, though...).
"Influence" however is a different matter... a nudge here or there; ramping natural aggression up from an "8" to a "9" ... suggesting to a "cautious" mind and a "curious" one that they become allies because "investigation is the better part of valor" ... etc.
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Incorrect: Peabody had the entire Senior Council under his mental influence, all of them "older wizards."
Older wizards cannot be mentally controlled (have their wills entirely overriden) without breaking their minds (that the Senior Council knows of; I bet someone in the Dresden Files knows how to do it, though...).
"Influence" however is a different matter... a nudge here or there; ramping natural aggression up from an "8" to a "9" ... suggesting to a "cautious" mind and a "curious" one that they become allies because "investigation is the better part of valor" ... etc.
As they say, "the devil is in the details.." Those nudges were taken very seriously by the Senior Council. Was it the Merlin or Rashid who said they had to review every decision they had made in the last ten years.
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The type of influence engaged mind to mind like the Whamps, Peadody DIDN’T employ that method of mind control.
Lara does NOT employ ink. Comparing her methods and Peabody’s is like comparing Chalk and Cheese. Even then Peabody could only make the Senior Council more set in its prejudices and likely a bit more loquacious on secrets whereas the younger wardens could be completely frozen.
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Or they will agree to partner, but on their own terms, which doesn't necessarily mean marriage. Why? Because it is useful to them, it is a dangerous world.
Indeed! We notice that they have both repeatedly found it useful to partner-up. I don't expect that to change; in fact, I suspect one of the sub-plots of Twelve Months will be Lara & Harry partnering to figure out how to end the engagement without pissing-off Mab.
They are not fools, so neither of them thinks it a good idea to overtly oppose/defy Mab; so they proceed with the engagement; this (the Lara/Harry dating, the WhiteCourt/Winter negotiations) I expect to take up a fair bit of the Twelve Months page-count. Equally, neither one of them likes being ordered-around in this fashion, for their own respective reasons (if it were upon her own initiative, I suspect Lara would rather like the idea of marrying Harry).
I don't expect the marriage to take place; but I don't expect Jim to write it as a gradual cooling-off / moving-apart. I'm unclear if it will still seem to be on-track at the close of TM, or if it will blow up before then.
The thing is: I don't think Mab actually wants (nor expects) them to get married. That is not Mab's agenda. I'm pretty sure the mix of [Winter Mantle X Whamp Hunger X Strong Wizard] is explosively-unpredictable even to Mab. Mab hasn't spent all this time forging & tempering her newest Knight, just to destroy him.
You know what is predictable to Mab? That neither Harry nor Lara will much like being ordered to get married, and one or both of them will be able to provide reasonable excuses for a delay, when put on the spot that way.
My own theory: given Papa Raith's known Outsider-magic, Vittorio's possession, Justine's Nemfection, and possibly other things known to Mab but not yet appearing on-screen (or hints missed), some undiscovered Nemvector inside the White Court has got to be looking awfully-likely to Mab.
She needs someone on the inside; ideally, someone who can... errr... "troubleshoot" whatever they uncover.
Enter, stage left: a patented Harry Dresden Anarchygasm (engaged to marry the White Queen).
Mab knows the situation is unstable.
She is, in fact, counting on it.
And she does it all by allowing them(!) to "convince her" to give Harry a full year to court Lara uncover things in the White Court...
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Mab knows the situation is unstable.
She is, in fact, counting on it.
That is so Mab.. ::)