Well heck, I hope to prove she got her name as a joke on the Murphyonic field's DF usage. It would require two proofs though,(one of which is the topic of discussion now) and right now I have nether. Other than that, it's mostly scientific :)
Oh this is a scientific discussion! I thought it was another debate about Murphy... ::)
I've always thought the penalty for being a wizard of a little convenient for every other creature. In each age, it seems to be a convenient way to identify wizards and practitioners.Very. That would indicate a level of Absolute control over Magic Itself that would be terrifying. Especially if it's been used to intentionally out Wizards (to their DOOOOOM), and to Limit their Choices and Free Will, which is the fundamental hallmark of the Good Guys. If the Gods themselves want Mortals to Fall, then they are all just plain screwed, full stop.
My guess is that it's engineered by deities associated with the origin of magic. Particularly Hecate. Just how surprised would we be if it turns out the Sidhe are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can?
As for scientific methodology, I'll leave that to smarter minds.
Bob isn't mortal, so his magic isn't conflicted. We see also how the Sidhe have no issue with technology as well, since they're not mortal and not conflicted about their magic use.
So is Bob a non magical being? Now that he is with Butters he seems to have access to the internet.
Why is older tech safe, and new tech suspect? It has to do with the belief of the populace. Tech made before WWII is probably fine because almost everyone has lived all their life with it and doesn't think it's anything special. Tech made in the past 30 years gets more complicated as many people don't understand it, and tech within the past 10 years must still seem magical to many. We don't understand exactly HOW our smart bluetooth drone-connected phone works, but it does and we love it.The only thing that comes to my mind, like what's actually changed, is that we are in the age of the transistor since roughly post-WW2. Cars for instance, prior to WW2 "ish" we were more in the mechanical age - cars were based on purely mechanical actions. Newer cars have technology enhancements such as electrically calibrated injection, electrically monitored fluids, etc.
Wizards effect technology because they are conflicted. that confliction this is what causes machines to break down. Said effect is actually wizards effecting probability, the randomness of luck.Now if anyone wishes to discuss this or demand I expound more upon it, shoot now or forever keep your finger off the trigger :)
It's contained to machines as even top wizards don't usually put off enough magical aura to do what say, meeting with mother winter would do, but the transfer can happen. Also because they are 'spirit callers' not necessarily of previously living beings but the spirits of the elements themselves, like in GS the ghosts can effect the van but not people. they aren't supposed to, and without manifesting(whih is bad juju) they can't. Wizards can effect people and obects inside others aura's because wizards are mortal, they possess the free will to do so.(technically, ghost can screw with the nautral order too, but notice if either a wizard or ghost do so they tend to go kooky for cosmic reasons)
Now notice when said conflict or belief of conflict fails to come into play, is when they aren't conflicted! guns pointed at Dresden misfire all the time. Dresden himself enjoys blowing out technology, that's prime reason why anything around him would go bonkers, deep down he wants it somewhere. Notice now that NEVER not once has Harry's gun ever misfired? He doesn't want it to! it's very clear cut to me but I might not have explained well enough. however I take great offence to the statement no single theory can explain it, mine can... if only I could explain it lol. Oh, and yea... that's totally an underestimation of jims ability to say they're that way to make the story work. of course they're there to make the story work. But not as silly plot devices that go one way or another depending on what makes the current story. the over arcing story.
I use this connection between magic and random luck to make my own connection between the 3rd fate, the chooser, Nemesis who meets out punishment and literal fortuna, luck. it's all the same thing. Before she was ousted she controlled magic to decide the fate of everything as much as MW destroys and MS is the source of creation.
*Notice milk stopped spoiling and skin conditions desisted as part of the magical effect, right around when people started to learn more about the world and contributing those things to reality based effects instead of bad luck or 'little demons', Ahhh think about it, milk was left out to ward away bad luck! It twas the focus to to be used against it, a talisman if you were. An what happened because of it? Random 'badluck' from wizarding aura's began to accumulate in milk causing it to spoil!
Why is older tech safe, and new tech suspect? It has to do with the belief of the populace. Tech made before WWII is probably fine because almost everyone has lived all their life with it and doesn't think it's anything special. Tech made in the past 30 years gets more complicated as many people don't understand it, and tech within the past 10 years must still seem magical to many. We don't understand exactly HOW our smart bluetooth drone-connected phone works, but it does and we love it.
Faerie magic doesn't create the field because the fae don't have free will; whatever they do, they've found a way to make it work within the current running paradigm of reality. But the sloppy, forceful, willful magic of a wizard will push aside this collective tech-magic held together by the belief of mankind in order to make their will be done.
The only thing that comes to my mind, like what's actually changed, is that we are in the age of the transistor since roughly post-WW2. Cars for instance, prior to WW2 "ish" we were more in the mechanical age - cars were based on purely mechanical actions. Newer cars have technology enhancements such as electrically calibrated injection, electrically monitored fluids, etc.
My WAG is when Jim first wrote about this it seemed like a cool idea, but logic makes it a very hard concept to sustain.Hate when people think that, it's giving up when there's so much more to be had. Can you break down a list of what precisely you'd need for me to convince you my idea works?
Very. That would indicate a level of Absolute control over Magic Itself that would be terrifying. Especially if it's been used to intentionally out Wizards (to their DOOOOOM), and to Limit their Choices and Free Will, which is the fundamental hallmark of the Good Guys. If the Gods themselves want Mortals to Fall, then they are all just plain screwed, full stop.It doesn't seem any more terrifying than Mab extending winter through her mere presence on Earth. The Sidhe have a vast level of control over daily human lives. And that control would seem to be based on aspects of reality being associated with them.
It doesn't seem any more terrifying than Mab extending winter through her mere presence on Earth. The Sidhe have a vast level of control over daily human lives. And that control would seem to be based on aspects of reality being associated with them.Mab was able to extend Winter on a very local level, but she doesnt have anything close to global control (and certainly not that level of casual discretion). It's a wildly different thing, to my mind, to say that Hecate (or any single deity of Magic) has blanket control to dictate how Magic, specifically Mortal Magic works on a global scale, and most especially when they then exercise that power to intentionally make Mortals better Prey.
If the aspect of magic is associated with Hecate (and other mantles possessed by the Sidhe), then it seems logical that they could exert just as much control on that as they can the weather. Or, at least as much control as they have, given their level of influence over the aspect.
All in all, we're not talking about the Sidhe having enough control to cut magic off completely. We're just talking about Mother Winter having enough control (and pettiness) to push out side effects to magic use.
It's just too convenient that wizards are hampered with such limitations without there being an inciting factor for them. If wizards still suffered from boils and spoiled milk, I'd say it's no big deal; the Murphyonic field was always in place, and they only just realized it in the modern age.
But since it's changed, and in a potentially purposeful manner that successfully alienates them from the rest of mortal society, I say nay, it's not natural.
So one of the things that's pretty universal is magic's effect on technology. As Harry puts it, any tech after WWII gets affected, esp. electronics.
We also know from WoJ that magic didn't always affect technology, that Harry doesn't quite understand how things work, etc.
So here's the WAG:
What if the actual cause of the effect is the radiation put off by the first atomic bombs? After all, Low background steel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel) is a real thing (used for geiger counters).
However it isn't blanket in how it affects electronics, it may blow up a computer, but someone standing next to Harry wearing a modern pace maker or hearing aid isn't affected.. Nor do the I-phones in their pockets instantly melt, and no they are not always turned off when not in use.. Billy can drive Harry around in their new state of the art SUV, but if Harry drives it, it falls apart..Most those point can be explained under, as 'spirit callers'(not entities, more primal spirit of 'creation/elements) plus the natural order of magic shouldn't Interfere with Free Will means the more inside the aura of another person something is, the less it will naturally effect it without direction. Taking it out and holding it takes a phone away from direct contact with a large mass(like body heat transfer) to a smaller surface. The car is pretty simple, Harry chills and tries not to do anything. Driving is an emotionally charged experience more often than not. I mean Chicago traffic? Sheesh surprised he doesn't blow even his old beater every ten minutes. Pretty close though now that I think about it ???
It is a truism of the Dresden universe. Every creature has weaknesses. The Fey do (iron), the vamps do (sunlight or true love), loup Garou have inherited silver, etc. Wizard's weakness vs technology is just their weakness.Is it a weakness though? Consider, if you get enough practitioners all over world wide(say 3-4) then Technology becomes obsolete, NOT the other way around though. So, weakness or...? ???
If this is a universal law, then it cannot be assigned to someone as weak as Mab (in the grand scheme of things...)
Is it a weakness though? Consider, if you get enough practitioners all over world wide(say 3-4) then Technology becomes obsolete, NOT the other way around though. So, weakness or...? ???Not going to happen unless the Wizard-to-Vanilla ration shifts pretty hard, and by then it would have moved on to some other effect.
Not going to happen unless the Wizard-to-Vanilla ration shifts pretty hard, and by then it would have moved on to some other effect.Instead of throwing me another hypothetical for us to argue about, what about just the singular point made? Wizardy trumps technology, not the other way around.
But the original theory proposed was that all these effects (Murphionic effect currently, but the Fire and Milk and Warts issues previously) where all put in place specifically to make Wizards easier to identify, that the Fae "are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can".That would imply a being capable of altering magic and how it interacts with mortals itself. Kinda steps on the toes of the woj magic has no 'consciousness' connected to it. I see no other way a being could take such control over the very fabric of mortal magic itself. I mean the idea it used to be controlled by an entity gets in a loop hole, but actively defines it? If anything TWG and his order of business seems to take precedent upon magic, especially when you compare mortal lawbreakers with those immortals that define the balance.
Instead of throwing me another hypothetical for us to argue about, what about just the singular point made? Wizardy trumps technology, not the other way around.Calm down, Im not deflecting, Im just loosing track of what point you are trying to make.
That would imply a being capable of altering magic and how it interacts with mortals itself. Kinda steps on the toes of the woj magic has no 'consciousness' connected to it. I see no other way a being could take such control over the very fabric of mortal magic itself. I mean the idea it used to be controlled by an entity gets in a loop hole, but actively defines it? If anything TWG and his order of business seems to take precedent upon magic, especially when you compare mortal lawbreakers with those immortals that define the balance.I...think that was essentially my same point. The WOJ about magic not having a controlling consciousness is good additional support, not an angle Id considered.
I think my theory covers all those things you mention, except fire, am I missing a passage on fire? Milk, warts, technology... fire? ???It's from the original WOJ that talked about the effects changing, and also in GS
Dragon-Con @2:50
As technology advances, will wizards become marginalized?
It sort of depends on where magic goes. Magic wasn’t always screwing up post WW2 tech. Before WW2 magic had other effects. It sorta changes slowly over time, and about every 3 centuries it rolls over into something else. At one time, instead of magic making machines flip out it made cream go bad. Before that magic made weird molls on your skin and fire would burn slightly different colors when you were around it. I do mention this in Ghost story (in passing). It’s not really aware or something like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who use it.
Three hundred years ago, magical talents screwed up other things—like causing candle flames to burn in strange colors and milk to instantly sour (which had to be hell on any wizard who wanted to bake anything). A couple of hundred years before that, exposure to magic often had odd effects on a person’s skin, creating the famous blemishes that had become known as the devil’s mark. Centuries from now, who knows? Maybe magic will have the side effect of making you really good-looking and popular with the opposite sex—but I’m not holding my breath.
Calm down, Im not deflecting, Im just loosing track of what point you are trying to make.I am :)
So in that specific instance the population is not going to be able to reach the point where all Science goes out the window (what you describe, correct?) due to a global Murphionic blanket. Certainly not in the 3000-sih years that Magic can be expected to retain issued with technology.I am slightly confused. I just meant if the population turned wizards overnight, say an Aleran like sister world migrates to the DF and all of them can use magic, inexplicably bringing this excess to the masses already alive here, then tech isn't going to remain relevant to most of civilization. It becomes obsolete in the face of wizardy. Not vice versa.
I...think that was essentially my same point. The WOJ about magic not having a controlling consciousness is good additional support, not an angle Id considered.Oh cool, something to research on ::)
It's from the original WOJ that talked about the effects changing, and also in GS
I am slightly confused. I just meant if the population turned wizards overnight, say an Aleran like sister world migrates to the DF and all of them can use magic, inexplicably bringing this excess to the masses already alive here, then tech isn't going to remain relevant to most of civilization. It becomes obsolete in the face of wizardy. Not vice versa.In that sort of instance I entirely agree, assuming that Magic didnt find some other thing to differentiate on, and allowing for technological advances that could theoretically combat the Murphionic effects (like how the Raith's can afford lighting systems that can survive a Wizard's Duel.
Mab was able to extend Winter on a very local level, but she doesnt have anything close to global control (and certainly not that level of casual discretion). It's a wildly different thing, to my mind, to say that Hecate (or any single deity of Magic) has blanket control to dictate how Magic, specifically Mortal Magic works on a global scale, and most especially when they then exercise that power to intentionally make Mortals better Prey.I still don't see it being as extreme as you do. Restricting a form or type of magic is several magnitudes higher than adding a status effect to magic use. Especially to the current embodiment of Hecate. One's overriding free will; the other is a side effect that does nothing to restrict free will.
Anyone that could make that sort of absolute change could also, for instance, declare that Mortal Magic cannot summon Outsiders. Or even that anyone else can; so I really hope they are on the 'Good Guys' side (ie. pro-free will).
Heka, the male Egyptian embodiment of magic.*blinks* I thought that was the eagle/falcon headed guy Horus? and where is she linked to magic in greek mythos!? ??? I'm getting jealous of your sudden mythological prowess lol.
*blinks* I thought that was the eagle/falcon headed guy Horus? and where is she linked to magic in greek mythos!? ??? I'm getting jealous of your sudden mythological prowess lol.From the great Wiki.
Hecate or Hekate... was variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, light, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, ghosts, necromancy, and sorcery.
Heka (/ˈhɛkə/; Egyptian: Ḥkȝ; also spelled Hike) was the deification of magic in ancient Egypt. The name is the Egyptian word for "magic".
The word Heka means action of the Ka or activation of the Ka, the Ka being the ancient Egyptian concept of the vital force.
From the great Wiki.*shakes head* maybe I've been mixing mythos too long. I thought Horus's mother was who blessed man with runes. Maybe I'm thinking Mesopotamia or Sumerian or something. Cause the name I'm catching in my head isn't Isis. Mythology my schoolhood love, its been too long ;(
And as for Heka...
I've read comment that firmly argues against an association between the two, but it wasn't very convincing. It basically boiled down to "Heka was a man, and Hekate was a woman, so they're not the same". Which doesn't mean as much in a fantasy setting with mantles.
As for Horus, I'm unfamiliar with any role he played in magic.
I've read comment that firmly argues against an association between the two, but it wasn't very convincing. It basically boiled down to "Heka was a man, and Hekate was a woman, so they're not the same". Which doesn't mean as much in a fantasy setting with mantles.I have to disagree here. In Hecate's case, gender is crucial. She's developed from the Mother goddess archetype.
I have to disagree here. In Hecate's case, gender is crucial. She's developed from the Mother goddess archetype.Maybe you missed my point, in that Hecate could have assumed a mantle previously possessed by Heka. Or came to possess a portion of the aspect of magic from him.
I still don't see it being as extreme as you do. Restricting a form or type of magic is several magnitudes higher than adding a status effect to magic use. Especially to the current embodiment of Hecate. One's overriding free will; the other is a side effect that does nothing to restrict free will.Would you mind elaborating on that? How do you picture/characterize each side and the difference? Im pretty sure imagining it differently so Im struggling to shift to your POV on this.
Given, I'm one that assumes that there is a link between Hecate/Hekate and Heka. It seems like too much of a coincidence that she's linked to magic in the Greek pantheon, and shares a name root with that of Heka, the male Egyptian embodiment of magic.On this we agree, I have no issues with Heka being in the overall mix right along side all the others. While I do agree with Zaph that Gender is important to the current Hecate mantle as a Triple Goddess, a Table and a Bodkin solve that discrepancy decisively.
*shakes head* maybe I've been mixing mythos too long. I thought Horus's mother was who blessed man with runes. Maybe I'm thinking Mesopotamia or Sumerian or something. Cause the name I'm catching in my head isn't Isis. Mythology my schoolhood love, its been too long ;(Fwiw, the egyptian mythos were waaaay more fluid than most, they changed their myths with every political upheaval. Isis was Horus' mother who tricked Magic out of Ra, so it was central to her mythos. Heka was the actual personification of Magic, though. Heka was the literal word for Magic, literally meaning Activation of Life Force (which fits flawlessly into the Chi magic framework of the DV. I think an analogy might be Hades as the God of Death compared to Thanatos as the literal personification of it.
I agree Male, female. Probably no difference.
I'm convinced Baba Yaga was probably just a female Death. Go anywhere, kill anything.