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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: beachhead1973 on August 22, 2010, 02:37:31 PM

Title: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: beachhead1973 on August 22, 2010, 02:37:31 PM
Hi, I couldn't find any info on this in either of the books, but just what kind of tests does the council apply and what sort of difficulty level should I be looking at?

Secondly, becoming a warden, same deal as above, what kind of tests and difficulty am I looking at, post Red Court War?

Finally, I get the impression from all the books that the White Council at least is not a voluntary organization; you either join or...what exactly? Can you get by as a strong practicioner, just going your own way, as long as you stay on the straight and narrow? Partly it's to keep an eye on powerful practicioners (or just wizards?) so you have to take the tests and you have to join, yes? or else what? And how about the Wardens? do you get a choice or are you drafted, more or less?

Oh and another thing; less the white council, more the wardens; what kind of training opportunities do you think these organizations open up? obviously the wardens want their poeople to be able evocators, would there be a minimum standard? How about the council? I can't imagine there is much organized uplift for junior members there.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 22, 2010, 08:54:45 PM
White Council Test:
They test your magical ability.  If you have enough then you're in.  If not, then you aren't a White Council mage BUT must obey all the laws of magic or the Wardens will come and cut off your head.  In one of the books Dresden notes that there are wizard types out there who have been at it for much longer than he has and will never be on the White Council because they will never have the right level of power.  At least one person threw the test, registering as much lower magically than she is.

Warden Test:
At the moment, it seems to be appearing loyal to the White Council and being able to handle yourself in a fight.  I'm sure that there were more qualifications before the war with the Red Court, but since the White Council needs Wardens they are recruiting combat capable mages (Dresden) and trying teenagers.

Training from the White Council / Wardens:
Traditionally someone tested by the White Council get to be an apprentice to someone.  Wardens to be get taken to training camps in remote places to train - but those camps get attacked regularly (at least twice in the books).  They also get lectures and training from Senior Wardens - like Dresden.

Richard
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: beachhead1973 on August 29, 2010, 12:11:54 AM
but I think neither are optional, yes?

I mean, if you have power, you get tested. No Choice.

And if you have power and can fight, you HAVE TO serve as a warden, unless you either have some clout (the white council seems like that kind of organization) or are somehow seen as untrustworthy.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 29, 2010, 12:28:17 AM
I don't think that the White Council test is optional because if you have the right level of power then they want you on their team.

But Wardens... I think they can ask you, pressure you, guilt you, but they can't draft you.  In the books Dresden acted as if he thought he could refuse the grey cloak...

Then again, in the game Dresden writes notes about one of the sample characters and how he might get drafted.  Maybe he meant that the wardens would apply pressure for that character to join, but they do say draft...

In other words, I don't think that there is a definitive answer.

Richard
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: HappyDaze on August 29, 2010, 03:21:47 AM
Since the word drafted is used, it might be that the Wardens only push it during wartime.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: The Dread Polack on August 29, 2010, 05:32:02 AM
Yeah, that's what I get from it. If you're an actual wizard, membership is mandatory. I don't think they'll force you to come to meetings if you aren't interested, but they still keep tabs on all the wizards they know of.

Currently, in the books, Wardens are being drafted, literally, but I would imagine at other times, you would have to display competence at investigation and combat.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 29, 2010, 06:18:50 AM
It think you have to be competent in those areas at all times - or willingness to train to be good at them.

They aren't grabbing academic types from their ivy towers but training kids.  It might be "Congratulations kid! You have enough magical power to train to be a wizard and... No, we don't do owls, that's make believe - we just do real magic.  Anyway, let's look at what specialties you can train for...  No, necromancy is right out, but there's an opening for combat wizards.  Want to toss fireballs and lighting bolts? Um, I don't know what you mean by D six, but welcome to the Wardens!" where before it was left up to the individual to decide what he wanted to train his apprentice as.

Hmm, thinking about that they may have temporarily abandoned the normal apprentice system so they can train troops in camps... Or maybe they are doing a massive "find the kids with magic talents" drive and since there are more kids than people able to train them then the excess get turned over to the Wardens to train.

Anyway, people use the term 'draft' when it's not legally a draft, so I'd say it's left open to the GM to make the call.

Richard
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Elegast on August 29, 2010, 08:03:10 AM
I would  guess that the council requires evocation, thaumaturgy, the sight and a least +3 in discipline, lore and conviction from its members.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Kaldra on August 29, 2010, 04:39:38 PM
the idea of a Draft is could make a verry interesting plot line, a pc or some one the pc's none is blackbagged to be trainded by the council. would be interesting to see how the magical community at large reacted
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: beachhead1973 on September 02, 2010, 05:25:00 PM
Thanks, this answers my question very well
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Morgan on September 02, 2010, 05:46:03 PM
When Harry wanted to become a Warden he was advised that he would need at a minimum 5 N.E.W.T.S. with marks of Exceeds Expectations or higher.  ;D
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Wolfwood2 on September 02, 2010, 09:42:07 PM
I tend to think drafting wardens would be a bad idea.  Exerting a certain amount of social pressure would certainly be fair, but if someone says no you're not going to force them at staffpoint.

Conscript armies have enough problems as it is, and Wardens are both the police force and the army of the White Council.  Your most combat-powerful wizards are not the people you want bitter about having been press-ganged into risking their lives.  Ultimately the sort of missions the wardens undertake simply can't be done by people who aren't doing it voluntarily.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Bruce Coulson on September 02, 2010, 09:51:20 PM
And if someone is powerful enough to be on the White Council but says "No, thank you..." 

Then what?

Yes, they have to follow the Laws of Magic.  And they do.  But they don't care about (or are offended) by the Council, don't go to meetings (in fact point blank refuse to go) and ignore any edicts issued other than obeying the Laws.

Now, the White Council can ignore their wishes and claim they are a member anyway.  Other than that...execute people for refusing to join?  Probably not going to work out well.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 03, 2010, 07:14:15 AM
Then why did Harry's foster sister act dumb and fail the test?

I don't see them letting any powerhouses run around as rogues.  Everyone important has to join or else... Well let's Tom didn't want to join.  He later meets Dick, who doesn't want to join, and the two of them run into Harry (not Dresden, another guy named Harry) who doesn't want to join.  The three of them start getting together as the Tom, Dick, and Harry social club - having dinner once a month.  Then they get a few apprentices and before you know it the Tom, Dick, and Harry Circle is an alternative to the White Council.  A small, insignificant alternative, but one of hundreds of little circles out there...

And let's say Tom, Dick, and Harry live in England and during WWII they use their powers to help the allies win while some German groups use their powers to counter that - before you know there's a wizard war and people are breaking the laws of magic for the best of reasons.

The White Council doesn't want that to happen.  They can't allow it to happen. 
(click to show/hide)
.  If the Wizards fight among themselves the Monsters win.

I see the White Council as akin to a medieval  or early renascence Trade Guild.  Do you know what happened to trades men who refused to join those guilds? Well, they joined, were chased out of town, or eventually killed.  The glass makers were infamous for killing apprentices who might share their secrets.  For a guild to work it has to have a monopoly on the trade or it will be undercut.

So yes, I see White Council as a "join us or die" type group.

But maybe they aren't open about it.  Maybe if a young wizard-to-be refuses to join they manipulate things so that he's tempted to break the laws of magic and once he's done that they "kill the warlock" to make the world a safer place.  Or maybe they are the only ones who can awaken True Power in potential wizards.  Either way, if you're good enough then you're a member of the club whether you want to be or not.

Of course these are just my opinions, but they make sense to me.

Richard
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: toturi on September 03, 2010, 08:55:11 AM
The White Council doesn't want that to happen.  They can't allow it to happen. 
(click to show/hide)
.  If the Wizards fight among themselves the Monsters win.

So yes, I see White Council as a "join us or die" type group.
Why can't they allow it to happen? Wizards already fight among themselves. The various factions within the White Council is proof that it already has happened. See the problem here is while the White Council can make it "join us or die", the White Council isn't the only club in town. You end up with people who must band together if only just to get the White Council to back off. If the White Council end up killing their prospective members, then the monsters already won. White Council level talent isn't common; if you kill a talented prospect, you can't recruit him later. The White Council are long-lived, they can take the long view. You might not join us now, you might join us later. There's no need for permanent solutions as long as the person doesn't break any of the Laws.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: babel2uk on September 03, 2010, 09:31:48 AM
I always got the impression that joining the White Council is more a matter of necessity for survival than anything else. There are a lot of other factions out there that would be only too happy to gain the use of a spellcaster of White Council level power - willing or not. Remember, being a member of the White Council means that you are protected by the Accords. Not being a member basically means that you're powerful enough to attract the notice of other factions, but completely unprotected against them going after you. So, sooner or later you'll end up either in the White Council (when you go running to them tail between your legs begging for their protection) or under the control of one of the other factions. Nobody is going to let a White Council power level spellcaster run around loose for long, and the likelihood is that the various factions will take the long view of "Well, if I can't control them, I'm not letting them be used against me."

The White Council may not actively pursue a character but I do get the impression that they might just drop a few words in the right places to make sure that a threat arises to force a person to beg for membership.

The council has always been presented as a faction that may have it's internal bickering, but always bands together against an external threat. So joining doesn't necessarily mean that a character has to compromise their beliefs if they were going to follow the laws of magic anyway. Yes it puts certain obligations on you, but it doesn't mean that Council business will be rammed down your throat at every opportunity - and game-wise you can buy off a compel if you really don't want council business wrapped up in what you're doing.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Bruce Coulson on September 03, 2010, 01:19:01 PM
The problem with killing people who don't join you when there's other options is that eventually that gets out.

I can easily see the current White Council manipulating events to try and convince reluctant prospects to join.  But they'd have to be very subtle about it.  Because.....someone who IS capable finds out, and joins another group out of spite.  Now what?  They're protected, and they start spilling the beans about how the White Council manipulated them, killed their dog, threatened their family...you get the idea.

"Join us or Die."  And then that nice guy with a spare coin goes, "Wow, that's pretty rude.  Now, here's our offer.  You don't have to take it; just hear me out, and if you want to walk away afterwards, no problem.  WE don't kill people who say no." 

"Join Us or Die."  And then this Faerie Princess ambles by, contract in hand, which would guarantee your safety.  (At least from the White Council...)

"Join Us or Die." And then...but you see my point.  This could work for a while; but eventually, someone is going to get mad enough, stubborn enough, cantankerous enough, and last just long enough to join another group.  And then they're going to talk...a lot.  And maybe start offering their own rewards for joining them...

For that matter, this COULD be the origin of
(click to show/hide)
  Perhaps the White Council has already created their nemesis...
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: babel2uk on September 03, 2010, 02:18:46 PM
I can easily see the current White Council manipulating events to try and convince reluctant prospects to join.  But they'd have to be very subtle about it.  Because.....someone who IS capable finds out, and joins another group out of spite.  Now what?  They're protected, and they start spilling the beans about how the White Council manipulated them, killed their dog, threatened their family...you get the idea.

They wouldn't need to do all that. All it needs is for word to get out that there's a rogue white-council power level spell caster running around, and that's probably achievable by the council simply not performing the protective duties it does for people who are members. The other supernatural factions in the area would circle that like sharks round a drowning sailor. If the person joins another faction they'll likely find that their freedom is stripped from them wholesale at a multitude of levels - and it's unlikely they'll get Accords level protection out of the bargain unless they become something like the Faerie Knights, or are turned into a Vampire. If they are killed in the crossfire, well, it's a sad loss, but they didn't want the protection... If they join up with the White Council - which is the most likely course once they see the sharks circling - then great.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Bruce Coulson on September 03, 2010, 02:22:41 PM
Actually, it would be stupid for the other group NOT to grant at least Accord-level protection.  If they don't, then the White Council can just whack the rogue mage whenever they wish, no consequences.
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: babel2uk on September 03, 2010, 02:45:36 PM
Actually, it would be stupid for the other group NOT to grant at least Accord-level protection.  If they don't, then the White Council can just whack the rogue mage whenever they wish, no consequences.

That's a fair point, sorry, that was badly phrased. My point is that the price for that protection is probably going to be far higher than just joining the White Council. After all the White Council will pretty much leave you alone most of the time (in peacetime at least) so long as you're not breaking any laws - you don't have to attend meetings, you don't have to jump at every little request. Any other faction will require you to work for them all of the time, and enforce it either by addiction, oaths or bargains. Essentially you'd be exchanging the relative freedom offered by joining the White Council for either a life of constantly looking over your shoulder, or a collar and leash.

For a Wizard the benefits of being a member of the White Council by far outweigh the benefits of being rogue or working for another faction. That's not to say rogues don't happen, just that they would be a rarity, and that anyone stood without White Council protection is likely not to remain a free agent for very long at all - they'd be killed or recruited (willing or not) very swiftly. And the price of that recruitment is likely to be very high indeed, regardless of how it appears on the surface. There are probably a lot of cautionary tales of people who thought there were better offers that the White Council, and most of them are probably verifiably true....
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: wolff96 on September 03, 2010, 03:15:40 PM
Any other faction will require you to work for them all of the time, and enforce it either by addiction, oaths or bargains. Essentially you'd be exchanging the relative freedom offered by joining the White Council for either a life of constantly looking over your shoulder, or a collar and leash.

There are probably a lot of cautionary tales of people who thought there were better offers that the White Council, and most of them are probably verifiably true....

I think those three sentences are the stick behind the carrot of White Council protection.  All three Courts of Vampires that we have any information about, the Faerie Courts, and other factions out there would all love to add more WC-level mortal wizards to their payroll.  As noted in "Proven Guilty", only mortal magic can open the Outer Gates and let in the kind of Outsiders used against the Council...  so the Red Court would love to have Venom Addicted wizards to do their bidding, the Black Court their long-term thrall wizards, the Denarians and Faeries would have their wizards tied up by more powerful entities (angels and faeries), while the White Court Vampires...  well, how long would it be (since Magic tends to run in families) before there were a huge number of Hunger-fuelled wizardlings running around?  (Wow, I just gave myself a story idea, there.  Heh!)

And all the White Council has to do is point to anyone ensnared by one of these other groups, act sorrowful, and point out to a prospective recruit that they can't protect every practitioner that doesn't want to join them... but if you're a member, then you get the whole benefits package.  ;)
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Bruce Coulson on September 03, 2010, 03:48:51 PM
I can accept that model of the White Council.  Especially since there are indications that the system is beginning to break down allowing for other parties to take advantage.

Not to mention resentful wizards within the Council, feeling they were forced to joined because the alternatives are worse...except nowadays there's fewer advantages to being a member...
Title: Re: Council entrance exams and becoming a warden...or not
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 03, 2010, 04:39:12 PM
Okay, after reading some of the other replies I think it's less likely that it's it "join us or die because we'll kill you" and think it's more "join us and we can protect you from the other things that want to kill you - or worse, enslave you".

They also have the knowledge you need to develop your powers to their fullest extent - who else would have that? Okay, let me rephrase that - who else would have that and be willing to teach it for such a low price? All the White Council charges is membership.  They don't insist that you use your magical powers one way or another, they don't have you churning out enchanted items, they don't have you breaking the laws of magic in soul destroying ways - all they insist upon is that you become one of them.

Of course for some that's too high a price.  And they can't be everywhere so some people with great talents slip by them - I'm thinking that Kimmler was never a member of the White Council.

As for the infighting, politics are happening.  The sort of politics that happen in every office and twice as much in the halls of academia.  They aren't really fighting - they aren't killing each out, training assassins and giving them enchanted weapons, or doing anything like that.  They'll hurt each others feelings and careers, but no one ends up dead.
(click to show/hide)

Richard