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Messages - wyltok

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106
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« on: August 24, 2012, 12:37:56 PM »
Paranoid Harry is paranoid. He doesn't want someone to grab him and use his bound-and-gagged/unconscious body to get through the wards in his house. If he could teach Thomas and Murphy how to open the wards instead of giving them talismans, he'd probably do so (except maybe Murphy, due to what he explained in Last Call).

That he willingly gives them those talismans is as much proof of his trust in them as proof of his trust in their ability to take care of themselves.

107
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« on: July 26, 2012, 07:53:23 PM »
I think Thomas mentions in Backup when he first met Justine. Pretty sure it was in zero, and quite sure (though not pretty sure) that she was underage at the time.

108
DF Reference Collection / Re: Unsolved Mysteries Version II
« on: July 18, 2012, 06:04:53 PM »
This topic discusses the King James' Bible in Forthill's room. It includes knnn's Venator theory.

109
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who recruited and trained Victor Sells?
« on: April 23, 2012, 01:26:59 AM »
I can't help but wonder why Papa Raith would teach the slimmed down version of the Red Court curse to Sells, which requires the storms to empower it, when he could just teach him the He Who Walks Behind entropy curse that requires much less power instead, and can be performed any day of the week. It can't be that he didn't know it, since we're fairly certain he killed Maggie Dresden with it. Then again, that could just be First Installment Weirdness (to use a tvtropes term).

Other than that, I like this theory, and wouldn't be surprised if you're completely right.

110
DF Reference Collection / Re: Dark influences on Harry
« on: March 20, 2012, 11:31:18 PM »
No, just pointing out that since day one in Storm Front, Marcone has been a bigger threat than Cassius was at the moment that Harry killed him.  If people feel that Harry killing Cassius was the right thing to do then Marcone should have died as well.

This is what I mean. Is Marcone more dangerous then Cassius? Certainly! Is he as big a threat? Nah. He has no motivation (yet) to kill Harry, and they both know it. Heck, he knows the guy's got the soul of a tiger. Tigers don't kill indiscriminately, and neither will Marcone.

Cassius, meanwhile, still has at least one year of life left, and has made it patently clear he'll dedicate it to chasing after Dresden. He's shown himself to be willing to go through Dresden's friends to do it, too (he tracked Harry through the use of Butter's hair). There is no question that he will hunt down Harry and his friends again. These are all things Harry knows Marcone will not do (for now). These are all reasons why I don't see how it's the smart thing for Harry to kill Marcone.

Instead, Harry repeatedly risked his life to save Marcone in Fool Moon.  When Harry got to the estate and saw the downed wolves Harry knew that Marcone now saw Harry as a threat and may have already sent out countless hitmen, but Harry still did what he had to in order to save Marcone.

Keep in mind, the very first thing Marcone says in that scene with the downed wolves is "I want Dresden alive". He then goes on to threaten Denton when he sets out to kill Harry after the Soul Gaze. Marcone also did the same thing when Harry was captured by the lycanthropes. This is the part that really confuses me in your argument: somehow you went from a Marcone that spent the whole novel telling other people "Don't kill Dresden" to Harry reaching the conclusion "Marcone wants me dead".

111
DF Reference Collection / Re: Dark influences on Harry
« on: March 20, 2012, 08:48:41 PM »
As for it being justified - Marcone has been just as big as a threat since Storm Front.  Having soul gazed the man, Harry knows that Marcone could kill Harry and feel nothing.  Since sometime between Turn Coat and Changes, Harry has known that Marcone builds anti-Harry death traps.

But rather than kill the threat, Harry saves Marcone in Fool Moon.  Rather than react to the anti-Harry death trap, Harry arranges to meet the man on neutral territory.

[...]

Richard

I'm not sure I follow this line of logic. You seem to be assuming that everything that's dangerous is also a threat, and should be dealt with using a pre-emptive strike. Marcone has made it patently clear that while he has the ability to kill Harry, he doesn't have the motivation to do so. The one time Harry thought Marcone was out to kill him, in fact, Harry loaded up with all his magic and went to confront the man directly (at the Varsity Club during Storm Front).

It's as simple as that. Harry knows that Marcone has no reason to kill Harry, ergo, Harry does not fear Marcone killing him. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that your objection to this logic is that if Marcone ever does have a reason to want to kill Harry, he'll just go ahead and try to kill and Harry without bothering to make sure Harry is aware that a reason no exists. To wait until a man whose morals are so contrary to Harry's own stumbles upon a reason to kill Harry does seem a bit foolish on Harry's part, no?

Thing is, Harry has lived all his life living under the risk of people stronger than him finding reason to want to kill him. Heck, his father-figure decided one day randomly to want to kill him and sent a demon after him (or so Harry thought for most of his adult life)! Add to that Lea (then Mab), Morgan (then the Merlin), Bianca (then the Red Court), etcetera... frankly, by this point, Harry has to be inmune to the idea that just because someone may someday decide he's worth killing means he should kill them now in a pre-emptive strike of some sort.

112
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 20, 2012, 05:11:33 PM »
Monoc Industries must have a division dedicated to cleaning up supernatural evidence.

Wonder who's paying that bill?

113
DF Reference Collection / Re: Dark influences on Harry
« on: March 20, 2012, 04:31:21 PM »
Harry ressurect Sue's? I know she isn't human but, its necromancy anyway.

Seconding this. Since one of the reasons Harry did this was to surround himself with a "field of necromantic energy " strong enough to survive approaching the Darkhallow Vortex of Doom (tm), it may have left some sort of stain on him afterward.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned his pyrofuego spell in Grave Peril. He's had nightmares about the fact that he didn't care that there were humans still around when he threw it (meaning, he may have killed them with magic, breaking the first law... again).

On a more mundane example of something that stained him (like dimpwnc's), I would mention the whole situation with Trixie Vixen and Co. in Blood Rites. The whole book reads as a study on what TvTropes calls "What measure is a Non-human", with the Black and White Court vampires in one side, and the coven of porn star sorcerers in the other.

Quote from: Blood Rites
"Trixie," I said. "You can't possibly think that this is all right. Why are you doing this?"
 "I'm protecting what's mine, Larry," she said. "It's business."
 "Business?" I demanded. "Two people are dead already. Giselle and Jake were at death's door, and I don't even want to think about what would have happened to Inari if I weren't there. What the fuck do you think you're doing?"
 "I don't feel any need to explain myself to you."
 I blinked at her slowly and then said, "You don't know either. You don't know who he's marrying."
 She didn't say anything, but her eyes blazed with scorn and fury.
 I shook my head, continuing. "So you've just been eliminating all the women around Arturo Genosa. One at a time. You don't even know if you're killing the right person."
 "There's only one little girl toy left pretty enough to suit his tastes," she said.
 "Emma," I said.
 "And once she's gone, I won't have to worry about her stealing what's mine."
 I stared at her for a second. "Are you insane?" I said. "Do you think you'll get away with this?"
 "I'd love to see some prosecutor try me for witchcraft," she responded.
 Trixie was too stupid to believe me about the White Council and too self-absorbed to keep my name straight, but for crying out loud, she had to be human. "Hell's bells, Trixie. Emma's got kids."
 "So did Hitler," Trixie snapped.
 "No, he didn't," I said. "He had dogs."
 "Whatever," Trixie said.

[...]

 The adrenaline rushed through me, wild and mindless.
 I wanted to kill her.
 A lot.
 I hadn't ever felt that before-a sudden surge of fury, contempt, and disdain mixed in with a physical excitement only a few degrees short of actual arousal. It wasn't an emotion. It was nothing that tame and limited. It was a force, a dark and vast tide that picked me up and swept me along like a Styrofoam packing peanut. And I liked it.
 There was something in me that took a deep and gloating satisfaction in seeing my enemy on the floor and helpless. That part of me wanted to see her screaming. And then see her die screaming.

[...]

 I stared at Trixie for a hot, wild second, and the look choked her continued shrieks to whimpers. Trixie may have been female, but as of that moment she wasn't a woman anymore. She'd crossed a line. As far as I was concerned, she and her allies had forfeited their membership card to the humanity club when they killed Emma.

114
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 19, 2012, 06:34:50 PM »
It's one of the mysteries of the book. Harry remembers everything up until he uses the knife (may God forgive him). He's got missing time from that point until it's almost dawn. Considering the powers at play in that location during that time, some of our local theory-weavers have proposed that a deal or two may have taken place in that time period. Since Harry didn't think to check his memories while he had perfect recall as a ghost, we probably won't find out for a while.

115
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 16, 2012, 01:57:42 AM »
Link

Maybe that'll give you something better to associate gray with.

116
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM »
As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year).  If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.

Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:

Quote from: Small Favor
"Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
 I grunted. “Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos.”
 “Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time.”
 “She’s focused on short-term,” I said, getting it. “He’s all about the long view.”
 “Exactly,” Michael said. “When he threw Lasciel’s coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture.”
 “Calculated to rope me in,” I said.
 “You,” Michael said, “or my son.”

That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:

Quote from: Small Favor
“Oh, I picked the right coin for you.” He started to walk in a slow circle around me, the way you might a car at the dealership. “There are rumors that a certain Warden has been flinging Hellfire at his foes. How do you like it?”
 “I’d like it better if it came in Pine Fresh and New Car instead of only Rotting Egg,” I said.
 Nicodemus completed his circuit of me and arched an eyebrow. “You haven’t taken up the coin.”
 “I would, but it’s in my piggybank,” I said, “and I can’t break the piggy, obviously. He’s too cute.”
 “Lasciel’s shadow must be slipping,” Nicodemus said, shaking his head. “It has had years to reason with you, and still you refuse our gifts.”
 “What with the curly little tail and the big, sad brown eyes,” I said, as if he hadn’t said anything.
 One of his heels hit the ground with unnecessary force, and he stopped walking. He inhaled through his nose and out again. “Definitely the proper coin for you.”

On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.

I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).

To Harry everything is a spell.  (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail")  Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune.  In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic.  From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.

Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.

I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).

A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.

Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?

(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)

117
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 15, 2012, 05:03:04 PM »
Firstly, Id! Harry (is the ! necessary? I saw you using it I think) said that he had been communicating with the shadow for a few months.

Using and abusing memes amuses me. This one in particular comes from fanfiction websites.

So in attempting to directly answer your questions, the best I can do is that the Shadow was constrained from offering true corrupting power to Harry but "cheated" by building rapport with his concious mind as Shela before he conciously accepted power (Hellfire) from her.  The pushing the envelope was only available to her because of his subconciously accepting the power (and his subconcious communicating with her in the time since), and she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations that were likely to cause him to embrace the Hellfire she managed to offer his subconcious, and would thus give her lots of opportunities to offer him tantalizing power through the course of the events of DB. 
[...]
The thing is, the story goes through a lot of trouble to describe how there were lines and limits on what the shadow could do (Ref, the 2 dream sceens, 1 with Malcome, the other with the shadow and hot tub.  Interesting the symbolism in that in the Malcolm dream Harry was cold and uncomfortable, and Malcolm allowed him to mix his own Coffee to warm up... compared to Harry waking up in a luxurious hot tub he had never experienced before.)  Your Occam's Razor argument is not strong enough for me to just throw away all that world building effort.

I agree with you, by definition, Occam's Razor is never a strong argument. It's more of a gut check than anything, namely "Am I adding this complexity because it makes sense with the evidence available, or am I adding this complexity because it appeals to me in some way?"

Basically, I believe there's two questions; we agree on one, but disagree on the other:
1. Why did Lasciel's Shadow wait from the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference) until the actions of Dead Beat before "cheating"?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage (or as you put it, "[...]she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations[...]").

2. Why did Lasciel's Shadow not "cheat" from the moment Harry empowered the circle until the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference)?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: empowering the circle somehow makes cheating impossible for her until Harry's actions in Blood Rites.

You gotta admit, it's a little out of left field. To use a word I used previously, it seems inconsistent (I know, there's no reason to believe Lasciel's Shadow would follow fair rules, but there you go).

To me, those two statements are completely contradictory...  My conceptualization of DV magic is the altering of reality with your will.  So in those terms Harry's empowering the circle was a willful alteration of Lasciel's ability to influence him.  Thus it was a sucessful magical spell, not an empty gesture that did absolutely nothing.

I have Doylist issues with this assertion, rather than Watsonian ones. You make it sound like the only reason Harry managed to cut the Shadow off from his conscious mind was because he'd been trained in the art of focusing his will to alter reality (A.K.A. magic). I want the aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he's a good man"; I don't want the fantastic aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he can do magic". I believe this is what Ms. Duck means by saying we are underestimating Harry.

(From a Watsonian perspective, we know one can renounce a coin without magic, since Sanya did it. So, I guess I have Watsonian issues with it, too.)

The true hurdle she had to overcome was not external to Harry.  It was Harry's own stuborness.  The singing is no evidence otherwise since it wasn't Lasciel/Lasciel's shadow doing it.  Rather the fact that the wispering was a constant preasure that required the singing to drown it out until the spell cut it off is evidence that the spell was an effective way of exercising this stuborness in a way that severly limited Lasciel's influence over him.

The difference between what you say and what Ms. Duck is saying is that you believe that Harry's stubbornness somehow makes some of Lasciel's Shadow's options no longer available by reason of being impossible, while she (and I) believe his stubbornnes makes some of her options no longer available by reason of being dumb/counterproductive instead.

(Apologies to Ms. Duck if I misunderstood her.)

118
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 15, 2012, 03:53:47 AM »
Uhm, Serack and cozarkian, lemme try to return to the original point:
- If I'm understanding your position correctly, you believe there are constraints that limited how Lasciel's Shadow could interact with Harry's conscious mind, particularly between the events at the end of Death Masks and the beginning of Dead Beat. You believe these constraints are the reason why the background Rock & Roll music Harry had been hearing since picking up the coin stopped playing once his conscious mind chose to reject the coin. You believe these constraints are binding enough that Lasciel's Shadow didn't have any way of continuing to play the music, even if it wanted to.

- You then propose that these constraints were loosened by Harry's actions in Blood Rites, namely, his subconscious use of Hellfire. The (elegant) logic behind this belief is that we are told in Dead Beat that his conscious use of Hellfire was required in order to allow Lasciel's Shadow to communicate with Harry's conscious mind. One would expect, then, that Harry's subconscious use of Hellfire would be required in order to allow Lasciel's Shadow to communicate with Harry's subconscious mind.

My questions to you, I'm afraid, remain unanswered, by either you or cozarkian:
- How can the constraints be binding if Lasciel's Shadow managed to "cheat" around them?

- Why did Lasciel's Shadow appear to wait from Blood Rites until Dead Beat before "cheating"?

In all fairness, I did ask a third question that did get answered by both you and cozarkian, namely, how did Lasciel's Shadow fail after three years whereas other Shadows succeed in a few weeks at most (or presumably, fail completely in a shorter span of time). Cozarkian proposed that the temptation process was inherently different from Harry's in most cases, heavily skewed toward the Shadows' favor. When I suggested that such a system didn't seem consistent to me, you replied saying that there's no reason to expect the system to seem fair from our perspective. I can't really argue that point, so I shall concede it.

Still, my two questions above remain unanswered. My proposed answer to them is the following:
- At some point, Lasciel's Shadow was free to act in a certain way and chose to wait until her actions had maximum impact before acting. I believe we can all agree a time period like that existed between Blood Rites and Dead Beat. Just to clarify, by "free to act" I don't mean there would be no consequences for her actions; what I mean is, there were constraints stopping her from acting.

- The idea that Lasciel's Shadow was constrained from acting in a certain way ("cheating") during one time period and then later chose not to act in that exact certain way until a time of her choosing has more moving parts to it than the idea that she just chose to not act in that way ("cheating") until a time of her own choosing from the very beginning. Occam's Razor would suggest that maybe there was never any constraint on her actions in the first place.

- The fact that that it still counted as "cheating" when she finally acted means that she was either unaware that there would be consequences (unlikely) or she believed the consequences were worth it. Meaning, the consequences did not have the power to stop her from cheating at that point in time, which suggests that nothing had the power to stop her from cheating earlier, either. Since the act that has been defined as "cheating" is at the very least the same as playing music, and nothing could stop Lasciel's Shadow from cheating, nothing could stop her from playing music, either.

In other news, both sides seem to agree that the magic empowering the circle in and of itself did absolutely nothing to limit the coin or Lasciel's Shadow. Granted, you believe the act of empowering the circle did limit the access Lasciel's Shadow had to Harry's conscious mind, but at least we agree on something, no?

119
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 10:42:19 PM »
I don't think most bearers take that first step of rejection. They probably slip the coin in their pocket and carry it around like a secret treasure. Without that first rejection, they would be open to the full temptation at the start.

No, I think once you touch the coin the Fallen can try to tempt you. It is only following an act of refusal (Harry sealing the coin) that the Fallen is forced to resort to more subtle means.

A system that allows Malcolm Dresden to appear to balance out Lasciel's Shadow "cheating" but allows the coin to tempt you fully from the word go unless you perform an act of refusal doesn't seem internally consistent to me. Particularly since the former was a smaller deal than the latter and (presumably) occurs less often. Neither does a system that only defends you when you make an informed choice (meaning, when you're most likely to not fall into temptation by mistaked in the first place) instead of defending you when you're making an uninformed choice (when you're more likely to be tricked). It would only really work in an universe where the bad guys are winning, methinks, or the good guys are dicks (Uriel doesn't seem to be one of those, at least). Unless I'm misunderstanding your logic?

120
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 08:49:05 PM »
This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry

If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.

From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.

Serack, just to make sure, Cozarkian's post touches on what you mean by constrained, right? Since Id!Harry didn't give up the coin, Lasciel's shadow could offer Hellfire to him. I must admit, there's a certain elegance to it I find quite appealing: Free Will is never really broken, since only those willing to be tempted are offered temptation.

On the other hand, we know that fully giving up a coin does not require a magic circle (since Sanya did it by just letting the coin go). So it's the "conscious act of rejection", the "concrete choice" that cuts off access to the wielder's conscious mind from the Shadow implanted in the wielder's brain, rather than any magic itself (at least, if I understand your theory correctly). A total rejection like Sanya's presumably requires both a concious and subconcious choice. And the choice can be coerced (by say, threatening to kill someone unless they give up the coin; Quintus Cassius' subconcious mind didn't want to die either, after all).

I think it's safe to assume that the offer of temptation isn't always Hellfire. After all, what would a non-wizard want with the stuff? But there's probably always some sort of offer made to either the concious or subconcious mind that opens the door for full-on temptation and illusions.

When you look at it like that, it still sounds elegant. It also sounds slow as molasses. If the Fallen is only allowed to offer some sort of boost and has to wait until after the offer is taken before they're allowed to actually tempt the person, how the heck is their success rate usually so good that they get a person to pick up the coin in a few weeks at most?

On the gripping hand, this does align with the idea that forcing someone to pick up a coin won't work, because even after you are forced to pick the coin, you still have to accept the first offer of power without either the Fallen or the Fallen's shadow being allowed to tempt you. Unless, of course, they cheat.

Serack, would you mind verifying if your concept of Constrained matches with my understanding of it above? How does it jive with the idea that cheating can happen? How does it jive with the idea that Lasciel's shadow took so long (between Id!Harry using Hellfire at the end of BR to Shiela's appearance at the beginning of DB) to cheat? Was there some further constraint I'm missing, or was she biding her time? Because, returning again to the original argument, the question is whether Lasciel didn't cheat earlier beacuse she couldn't, or because she wanted to save her Ace-in-the-Hole for the best time possible.

The point I'm trying to make is Occam's razor: If your theory requires there to be a constraint (Id!Harry using Hellfire) as well as a choice on the Shadow's part to justify why it couldn't cheat earlier, and my theory only requires a choice on the Shadow's part to justify why it didn't cheat earlier, then I believe my theory has the advantage of simplicity going for it.

[Editted to change the sentence "cuts off the Coin from the Shadow" to "cuts off the shadow's access to the wielder's conscious mind" which I think is the argument being made.]

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