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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 19, 2021, 04:32:45 AM
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I don't know how many have viewed this but Jim does drop some really interesting stuff
Eye of Balor can kill anything, even Uriel (if he chose to sit there and do nothing), and Dresden has it. 21:51
Ebenezer is good at all magic and can beat just about anyone in a duel 29:20
Jim will not confirm if Elaine is in fact a Starborn. There used to be 40,000 - 50,000 in this cycle!! Not many left now after 40 years. 42.04
The White Council see's equipment (blasting rod, rings ect) as a crutch. Kid toys. Experienced wizards don't need them 53:00
Eb was involved with one of the Dragon's being killed (it's a big deal) 55:11
Nemesis discussion. it can only be so many places at once, Uriel can't detect it, it sounded like Jim was teasing about Mab being Nemfected and being near Mac when he was wounded, has difficulty predicting human responses 59:28
The British guy in Demonreach was put there by the First Warden... Hints of time travel stuff?? 1:03:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGgyJNMA4q8
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Yeah it was transcribed.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,22558.msg2340137.html#msg2340137
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,22558.msg2340266.html#msg2340266
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I listened to this shortly after it came out last year. Listening again to the first few minutes of the interview, the first time I totally missed Jim say that Harry has to survive twelve dates with Lara Raith. That should be interesting.
Lara Raith has always been a fun character, but even in White Night; which was heavily tilted to White Court politics and an internal House of Raith power struggle, she has always had very short but usually sharp moments with Harry. Now it sounds like this character will be featured prominently in the next book. I guess we will have to wait (and wait and wait and wait) to see how well this works out.
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I listened to this shortly after it came out last year. Listening again to the first few minutes of the interview, the first time I totally missed Jim say that Harry has to survive twelve dates with Lara Raith. That should be interesting.
Lara Raith has always been a fun character, but even in White Night; which was heavily tilted to White Court politics and an internal House of Raith power struggle, she has always had very short but usually sharp moments with Harry. Now it sounds like this character will be featured prominently in the next book. I guess we will have to wait (and wait and wait and wait) to see how well this works out.
Well, he does survive obviously, or that is the end of him in the Dresden Files...However the main question is will they be in love or stand one another enough to marry? Hard to tell, sexual attraction, that's a given, she is a White Court Vampire. Intelligent, Harry has always been attracted to intelligent women. Maternal instinct? Harry does have a couple of little girls to think about, well, she did raise Thomas.. Morals, now that gets a bit tricky. While Harry has never been a choir boy, he sees things a lot differently than Lara.. Will he ever be able to get used to her seeing humans as kine? They do respect each other, that is something.. So odds are 50/50 on it working out, except I don't see Molly going for it, and that will influence Harry.
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Mwahahahaha, twelve dates with Lara huh? Guess that'd make the wedding the 13th event!
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I missed the 12 dates with Lara thing, good pick up. Sounds like one a month. Also sounds like the wedding is at the end...and that it will be successful. Harry might develop *whisper s* feelings. Shock and horror, I know.
Then I imagine there will be some awkward or painful miscommunication and the trust will break down. And Molly will get jealous. I actually think the wedding might happen. Although I wouldn't bet on them actually consummating the thing. Look how long it took for Harry and Murphy.
Also, the wizarding equipment thing. Ebenezer uses rings. I believe the Merlin uses potions, wands etc. LtW uses medicine beads and I think shield equipment. Ancient Mai is literally the best enchanter on the Council. I suspect all wizards use staves, enchanted cloaks etc. Obviously the older wardens have enchanted swords. None of them would be kids. Unless I misunderstand what he is saying.
Eb being involved in the Tunguska we have known for a long time, since we found out about him being the Black staff. However, originally it was Michael (Knight of the Cross) who killed the last dragon. It's not clear if they were both involved, and I doubt Michael was at Tunguska as it's too long ago. Unless time travel.
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Eb being involved in the Tunguska we have known for a long time, since we found out about him being the Black staff. However, originally it was Michael (Knight of the Cross) who killed the last dragon. It's not clear if they were both involved, and I doubt Michael was at Tunguska as it's too long ago. Unless time travel.
Michael killed the last Dragon. I was under the impression Eb was involved in the death of one before that.
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Michael killed the last Dragon. I was under the impression Eb was involved in the death of one before that.
There are still dragons around. Ferry fax is one of them.
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Well, he does survive obviously, or that is the end of him in the Dresden Files...However the main question is will they be in love or stand one another enough to marry? Hard to tell, sexual attraction, that's a given, she is a White Court Vampire. Intelligent, Harry has always been attracted to intelligent women. Maternal instinct? Harry does have a couple of little girls to think about, well, she did raise Thomas.. Morals, now that gets a bit tricky. While Harry has never been a choir boy, he sees things a lot differently than Lara.. Will he ever be able to get used to her seeing humans as kine? They do respect each other, that is something.. So odds are 50/50 on it working out, except I don't see Molly going for it, and that will influence Harry.
In love. Never. Even the idea is impossible. Harry won’t give up his protection given by Murphy and Lara wants to be well fed and Mab would kill her if she eats Harry or even nibbles from him.
This will be a political marriage and both will see other people.
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There are still dragons around. Ferry fax is one of them.
I didn't mean there weren't anymore. I simply meant that the previous Dragon killed was by Michael.
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I didn't mean there weren't anymore. I simply meant that the previous Dragon killed was by Michael.
That is another way of reading that sentence. :)
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In love. Never. Even the idea is impossible. Harry won’t give up his protection given by Murphy and Lara wants to be well fed and Mab would kill her if she eats Harry or even nibbles from him.
This will be a political marriage and both will see other people.
Is it up to him? I mean Mab can plot or Lara can plot, drug Harry, get some woman to go to bed and have sex with him when he is vulnerable... That's the end of his protection.. Now Mab might want to keep her Knight, but in revenge for what she thinks Harry did to Thomas.. She said as much on Demonreach, and Harry knows if she can she will get her revenge.
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If consummation is part of the marriage contract then Mab could Droit du seigneur Harry and remove it . She told Lara not to eat Harry but she also is the one who ordered the marriage mso she wants it completed.
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And both of those options would turn Harry (and readers) against anyone involved because they're both rape.
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Mab takes Harry's feelings into account only when it doesn't disrupt her plans to do so. Harry was near a suicidal state of anger with her at the end of Battle Ground and this would only be a continuation of the orders she gave him then. He might rage against it(Hmmn, this could be how he gets into Mirror, Mirror with Mab showing him the way his choices can go wrong) but he can hardly get more angry if she lays it out for him in her rational, practical and implacable manner. He can get angry about it but he been angry at everything she's had him do and still he does it because that was the deal between them. Unless he can find a face saving way to cement the alliance while showing the marriage is unnecessary, he's stuck.
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Mab takes Harry's feelings into account only when it doesn't disrupt her plans to do so. Harry was near a suicidal state of anger with her at the end of Battle Ground and this would only be a continuation of the orders she gave him then. He might rage against it(Hmmn, this could be how he gets into Mirror, Mirror with Mab showing him the way his choices can go wrong) but he can hardly get more angry if she lays it out for him in her rational, practical and implacable manner. He can get angry about it but he been angry at everything she's had him do and still he does it because that was the deal between them. Unless he can find a face saving way to cement the alliance while showing the marriage is unnecessary, he's stuck.
I disagree about Harry being suicidal angry at Mab at the end of Battle Ground. He isn't, actually he understands on some level what she is trying to do and accepts alliances cemented by marriage. That doesn't mean he has to like it. Molly is the one that is really angry, most likely because she knows the real reasons behind it, hence the look she gave Lara after she and Harry battled the Kracken, the look that Harry admits now that he missed.. So stay tuned it isn't over and I doubt that there will be wedding bells..
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Harry has had sex with four women that we are aware of. Elaine, Susan, Luccio and Murphy. Two are dead. One was mind raped and coerced. The other was a tool in a plot to turn Harry into a killer and may yet be a bad guy. I hope Jim is going to up his game, it's getting tiresome.
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Harry has had sex with four women that we are aware of. Elaine, Susan, Luccio and Murphy. Two are dead. One was mind raped and coerced. The other was a tool in a plot to turn Harry into a killer and may yet be a bad guy. I hope Jim is going to up his game, it's getting tiresome.
I think one has to be careful how one states this. I don't think you mean for it to be the way it sounds. Harry had nothing to do with what happened to Elaine, that was all Justin. Luccio was mind raped before she got involved with Harry. Murphy went into the relationship with her eyes open, her decision to go out into the night half crippled monster hunting. Harry didn't make Susan steal that invitation... He should have practiced safe sex, but he wasn't exactly himself at the time. Moths are attracted to flame, sometimes they get burnt.. The women attracted to Harry love the excitement, they want a part of the action, sometimes there is a heavy price to pay for that.
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Harry has had sex with four women that we are aware of. Elaine, Susan, Luccio and Murphy. Two are dead. One was mind raped and coerced. The other was a tool in a plot to turn Harry into a killer and may yet be a bad guy. I hope Jim is going to up his game, it's getting tiresome.
You forgot Mab.
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I think one has to be careful how one states this. I don't think you mean for it to be the way it sounds. Harry had nothing to do with what happened to Elaine, that was all Justin. Luccio was mind raped before she got involved with Harry. Murphy went into the relationship with her eyes open, her decision to go out into the night half crippled monster hunting. Harry didn't make Susan steal that invitation... He should have practiced safe sex, but he wasn't exactly himself at the time. Moths are attracted to flame, sometimes they get burnt.. The women attracted to Harry love the excitement, they want a part of the action, sometimes there is a heavy price to pay for that.
What? They're characters written by Jim. He used them to torment Harry. That's what Jim says.You forgot Mab.
I'll be really surprised if she makes it to the end. Plus he didn't really sleep with her, did he? He never left the church.
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Harry has had sex with four women that we are aware of. Elaine, Susan, Luccio and Murphy. Two are dead. One was mind raped and coerced. The other was a tool in a plot to turn Harry into a killer and may yet be a bad guy. I hope Jim is going to up his game, it's getting tiresome.
A lot of characters have died throughout the books. Why are you focused on the ones Harry has been romantic with?
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A lot of characters have died throughout the books. Why are you focused on the ones Harry has been romantic with?
Yeah, and considering the kind of woman they were, stuff happens. Elaine is a wizard, not her fault she got adopted by the same scum bag that adopted Harry. She got caught by surprise and was enthralled, he got away. By the very nature of the line of reporting that she was in, Susan was headed for trouble. Basically deep down I don't believe she believed her own eyes and experience. She took chances she shouldn't have. Luccio is a Warden, it isn't her fault that that the Corpstaker took her body, nor is it the fault of Harry. Nor was it his fault that Peabody messed with her head. Murphy was a cop, being a cop is dangerous, cops get killed all of the time.. So while they all had Harry in common, he wasn't the reason why they died.
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What? They're characters written by Jim. He used them to torment Harry. That's what Jim says.I'll be really surprised if she makes it to the end. Plus he didn't really sleep with her, did he? He never left the church.
He left his body and slept with Mab who is just like Lea of two worlds. I think it counts.
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I disagree about Harry being suicidal angry at Mab at the end of Battle Ground. He isn't, actually he understands on some level what she is trying to do and accepts alliances cemented by marriage. That doesn't mean he has to like it. Molly is the one that is really angry, most likely because she knows the real reasons behind it, hence the look she gave Lara after she and Harry battled the Kracken, the look that Harry admits now that he missed.. So stay tuned it isn't over and I doubt that there will be wedding bells..
Harry was so pissed at the the wedding declaration that Molly had to restrain him twice from lipping off to Mab in front of others. And Harry knows that's a death sentence, it's even in his thoughts but he was going to do it anyway because he was angry he didn't care. He only calms down after Molly and Lara get her to agree to the year of mourning and courtship. Mab even realizes it, and allows him to vent somewhat in their private conversation.
As far as the actual wedding, I favor it going through just because I want to read the chapters of Thomas' reaction afterwards and Eb, Ramirez and Luccio thought which we (hopefully) will get in Twelve Months.
But Harry has an out. Marrying Lara is just another task he was given as Winter Knight and Mab has given him complete leeway in how he accomplishes her task(It was part of Harry's deal for acceptance). If he can find a way out, that saves face all around and still cements the alliance, Mab will mark it down as another task accomplished and move on. Her, "It has a year to be different statement" is open ended.
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He left his body and slept with Mab who is just like Lea of two worlds. I think it counts.
That wasn't sleeping with her, that was a ritual. You can't have sex with a literal force of nature. Harry made reference to that.
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That wasn't sleeping with her, that was a ritual. You can't have sex with a literal force of nature. Harry made reference to that.
Ritual sex counts. The description was quite clear. Also Sanya.
Of course it was not like normal. The rest is Harry in denial.
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Ritual sex counts. The description was quite clear. Also Sanya.
Of course it was not like normal. The rest is Harry in denial.
Ritual sex might count, but it isn't sleeping with someone, that implies being lovers, even for a one night stand. Yes, Harry had ritual sex with Mab/Winter, once, but he never was her lover, not even close. The four women mentioned were his lovers.
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Michael killed the last Dragon. I was under the impression Eb was involved in the death of one before that.
The last time a dragon died, according to Harry in Battle Ground, was the Tunguska Event. We know Eb feels responsible for this (as Blackstaff) from Blood Rites. It was one of the "necessary things" he had to do. So we can infer that Ebenezer either killed or was involved in the killing of the Dragon in that event.
However, this contradicts Michael's story. Michael killed Siriothrax and saved Charity from the Dragon. It was a big deal at the time. In Grave Peril, Ferrovax specifically confirms that Michael killed Siriothrax after Michael states it.
Tunguska happened in 1908. This would have been decades before Michael was born. So which event is the last time a Dragon died? Or is something else going on...
Harry has had sex with four women that we are aware of. Elaine, Susan, Luccio and Murphy. Two are dead. One was mind raped and coerced. The other was a tool in a plot to turn Harry into a killer and may yet be a bad guy. I hope Jim is going to up his game, it's getting tiresome.
If I understand you correctly, you're of the opinion that the female love interests are rather two-dimensional and/or not given very complex stories that don't involve the central character?
I think it's fair to say that some of the women could have been fleshed out a little more. Elaine sadly hasn't been seen from in a long time, and while I am almost certain she is central to the greater plot and therefore will show up again eventually, it's been a long time and I wouldn't mind finding out a bit more about her besides her relationship with Harry. Susan fitted the mould well enough, and I think she got a fairly good ending for a character (that as far as I can tell) who was only really a side character to begin with. I think I would like to learn more about her time with the Fellowship and such though, but I don't know that it would have added much to include it in the earlier books.
Luccio also has disappeared a bit, although that is natural considering Jim has sort-of pushed the White Council out of the frame. I think other characters fulfil her role these days and so Jim doesn't need her. I do agree that her whole being mind-controlled into sex with Harry was pretty ick, but for me this is one of those stories/genres that isn't so clean and comes with the territory - but I know not everyone agrees. Murphy (and I am aware that no matter what I say next will probably annoy some section of the fanbase) got a fairly good ending, and a fairly meaty story throughout the series. Murphy wasn't just Harry's lover - she was his antagonist, his colleague, then his friend and finally lover. She will almost assuredly return at the big ending for some moment of awesome. I can think of many IPs that have done something similar.
Harry is defined in many ways by his various relationships (not just the romantic ones). The deaths are important parts of that, to my mind. Harry also has a whole bunch of new relationships forming (some of which are romantic, and having been simmering away for years). I think Jim will do them justice, his writing has grown and improved a lot over the years. I think it's important to remember he was only a young man in his 20s when he started the series, and he hadn't fully developed his skills or ideas in the series. So yes, some characters weren't as good as they could perhaps have been, but then again Jim had to start somewhere. I am not so worried about the future relationships myself. But that's just one person's opinion.
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Ritual sex might count, but it isn't sleeping with someone, that implies being lovers, even for a one night stand. Yes, Harry had ritual sex with Mab/Winter, once, but he never was her lover, not even close. The four women mentioned were his lovers.
You have to draw a line somewhere though I might add Lasciel/Lash. They were extremely intimate being in the same head and they do have a child together.
“Lasciel,” I whispered. “Hello, lover,” said a throaty, playful voice that was not quite Hannah Ascher’s own. “You have no idea how much I’ve missed you.”
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You have to draw a line somewhere though I might add Lasciel/Lash. They were extremely intimate being in the same head and they do have a child together.
Which isn't the same as the mere mortal lovers Harry has had. Also it is the subconscious Harry that fiddled with Lasciel... Or maybe Lasciel fiddled with him, because she felt she could influence him more and that he agreed with her views, than the conscious Harry.. However in the end, it was Lash that won out, though I doubt that it was Lash who really was his subconscious' lover.
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@Yuillegan
Jim's thing is, how can I make Harry suffer.? So he's done the "punish Harry's women to punish Harry". A lot. It's old, move on. You can see a broad outline of whats coming next. Eb's irrational hatred of Whites. Harry and Lara's 12 dates. Do you see a trend?
@Arjan
I forgot her, make it 5. Although I wouldn't have expected Angels to have a gender.
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I think Lara will feed on Harry, and she will get more than she bargained for, tapping into the well of Winter in the Winter Knight. I doubt she can kill him by feeding on him; she'll tap into the Winter Knight, and it may kill her. That'd be a hell of a twist.
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I think Lara will feed on Harry, and she will get more than she bargained for, tapping into the well of Winter in the Winter Knight. I doubt she can kill him by feeding on him; she'll tap into the Winter Knight, and it may kill her. That'd be a hell of a twist.
Mab will kill her. She was quite explicit.
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I think Lara will feed on Harry, and she will get more than she bargained for, tapping into the well of Winter in the Winter Knight. I doubt she can kill him by feeding on him; she'll tap into the Winter Knight, and it may kill her. That'd be a hell of a twist.
It is possible that if she tried to feed on Harry she will suffer the same fate as her father, in other words appear normal, but starving to death. Between his mother's genes and his star born status it will backfire big time on her. However if that does happens, the next question is, then what? Also if that happens I can see Harry confronting Mab over this and her shrugging her shoulders and reply smugly, " it all went as I planned, it was the only way you could have taken her out my Knight.."
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@Yuillegan
Jim's thing is, how can I make Harry suffer.? So he's done the "punish Harry's women to punish Harry". A lot. It's old, move on. You can see a broad outline of whats coming next. Eb's irrational hatred of Whites. Harry and Lara's 12 dates. Do you see a trend?
Hmm. I see what you're getting at. I don't know that Jim will ever stop making Harry suffer, and therefore his romantic relationships are part of that. I think you're bang on about what's coming next. For instance, if Harry ends up falling for Lara I imagine Eb will kill Lara. If Harry doesn't fall for Lara it will turn into some burned hatred thing and their previously cordial relationship will be ruined, and Lara will become more of an out-and-out villain.
Should Jim keep making Harry suffer? It's a hard question to resolve. On the one hand, constantly torturing you're main character probably says a bit about how you feel within. On the other hand, there is nothing as boring as reading about/watching happy people. The Dresden Files isn't a comedy despite the occasional comic relief. It's a drama, a tragedy, perhaps even going for an epic (time will tell on that one). It's a hard thing to get right. How much pain is too much? By extension, we the readers are made to suffer which (so the theory goes) keeps us hooked. I can think of main characters I liked less for their victories, and hated for their failures and short comings. I can also think of main characters who were happier and less beaten up by life than Dresden, yet still remained interesting as they still had enough challenges to resolve. Does that make them better or more interesting? I think that's a bit subjective really.
Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more wins in Dresden's life including romantically speaking. How about a long term relationship? Harry is in his 40s (I think that's right) and hasn't had a long-term relationship. He dated Susan very briefly before that went south, he dated Luccio for about a year before that went south, he dated Murphy for only a few weeks before she died (despite years of "will they won't they"). Elaine might be his longest relationship, and that was only while he lived with Justin. I suspect that was only a year or so as Harry left Justin around 16 I believe. Funnily enough, it's Deidre (who is currently in a long-term incestuous relationship with her own father) who points out that Dresden doesn't have any real long term relationships over his life. That's got to hurt a bit.
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Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more wins in Dresden's life including romantically speaking. How about a long term relationship? Harry is in his 40s (I think that's right) and hasn't had a long-term relationship. He dated Susan very briefly before that went south, he dated Luccio for about a year before that went south, he dated Murphy for only a few weeks before she died (despite years of "will they won't they"). Elaine might be his longest relationship, and that was only while he lived with Justin. I suspect that was only a year or so as Harry left Justin around 16 I believe. Funnily enough, it's Deidre (who is currently in a long-term incestuous relationship with her own father) who points out that Dresden doesn't have any real long term relationships over his life. That's got to hurt a bit.
You left out Molly, that one may never be consummated except on a ritual level like Mab because of who she has become, but still. That relationship/friendship could last for centuries. Actually Harry did want to be more with Murphy back in Proven Guilty, but she refused, maybe she should have kept it that way. If he and Murphy never got together in a sexual way, their friendship was satisfying and lasted for a couple of decades. His relationship with Lara could go a similar way, or perhaps with Gard. Harry may find out in his line of work, that is best, plus he has a couple of kids to consider now.
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You left out Molly, that one may never be consummated except on a ritual level like Mab because of who she has become, but still. That relationship/friendship could last for centuries. Actually Harry did want to be more with Murphy back in Proven Guilty, but she refused, maybe she should have kept it that way. If he and Murphy never got together in a sexual way, their friendship was satisfying and lasted for a couple of decades. His relationship with Lara could go a similar way, or perhaps with Gard. Harry may find out in his line of work, that is best, plus he has a couple of kids to consider now.
Would we class Molly as one of Dresden's romantic relationships? While he cares for her, and possibly has some feelings for her that he won't deal with, and she has obvious (yet seemingly unrequited) feelings for him - they haven't really ever been more than friends at most. I do think Jim is saving their consummation, should it happen, for later in the series if Molly become Mab.
He and Murphy's romantic relationship, despite their feelings prior, only started at the end of Change and then was delayed until the end of Skin Game.
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Would we class Molly as one of Dresden's romantic relationships? While he cares for her, and possibly has some feelings for her that he won't deal with, and she has obvious (yet seemingly unrequited) feelings for him - they haven't really ever been more than friends at most. I do think Jim is saving their consummation, should it happen, for later in the series if Molly become Mab.
He and Murphy's romantic relationship, despite their feelings prior, only started at the end of Change and then was delayed until the end of Skin Game.
No, the romantic feelings between Harry and Murphy have been there for some time, they just didn't act upon them for a number of reasons. Harry has been sexually attracted to Molly for quite some time, just read how he describes her at various times confirms that one. Molly has had romantic feelings for Harry for some time. Some of that may have been hero worship, some of it school girl crush, but it was there, that is why at the end of their soul gaze Harry dumped a picture of ice water over her head. Master/Apprentice, romantic relationships aren't just unethical, they are dangerous, in that case it is up to Harry to hold back even if he finds her veryattractive. For the first couple of years at any rate, Molly was under eighteen, there are laws against that. She is the daughter of his best friend, who is also a Holy Knight, and has a mother who is even more a stickler for "morality" of that kind than her father... Now the relationship has changed again, so no, they may never consummate anything, but the feelings are there, especially on Molly's side, hence the cold look she gave Lara that Harry missed after they came ashore after battling the Kracken. Molly already knew what Mab was planning and possibly Lara as well.
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Yes, but even if people have feelings for each other - you don't class it as a romantic relationship really until it actually turns into something. So Murphy and Harry didn't have a romantic relationship until the end of Skin Game, even though they tried to start it at the end of Changes (and then there were complications etc).
Same applies for the Molly stuff. The romantic side (despite whatever feelings they both harbour) has never actually begun with them.
Legally, you wouldn't class either one as a romantic relationship. Otherwise you could say e.g. "I have romantic feelings for X, therefore I am in a relationship with them" and even if X is someone you don't know, like a celebrity etc, you could consider yourself in a relationship with them. Which of course is a bit absurd.
I do get what you're saying about both women being romantically connected to Harry though, but it's still in different category.
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Should Jim keep making Harry suffer?
I don't have a problem with that, just that he's seems to be stuck in a rut.
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Legally, you wouldn't class either one as a romantic relationship. Otherwise you could say e.g. "I have romantic feelings for X, therefore I am in a relationship with them" and even if X is someone you don't know, like a celebrity etc, you could consider yourself in a relationship with them. Which of course is a bit absurd.
But that is the thing, the two are being treated as equal, they are not. I don't disagree with what you are saying about "relationships," but even that is often classified as either sexual or just friends. And yes, people do have romances but never have sex.
I don't have a problem with that, just that he's seems to be stuck in a rut.
True, but Jim is just following the standard path for most heroes, it usually ends tragically, or if they get together it will be in the end. Child, usually a little girl left behind after the mother dies, is another cliche..
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@Arjan
I forgot her, make it 5. Although I wouldn't have expected Angels to have a gender.
That is what Bob said about skinwalkers and yet they have scions apparently. When Uriel incarnated he seemed male to me.
Lasciel presents herself as female. Maybe she self identifies as female. Maybe she was originally female.
And supernatural beings are influenced by their story. In that story she is female. Jim talks about her as a female.
Part of it might be a human shortcoming. We tend to assign gender to things that do not need it. In some languages to words for non living objects.
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That is what Bob said about skinwalkers and yet they have scions apparently. When Uriel incarnated he seemed male to me.
Lasciel presents herself as female. Maybe she self identifies as female. Maybe she was originally female.
And supernatural beings are influenced by their story. In that story she is female. Jim talks about her as a female.
Part of it might be a human shortcoming. We tend to assign gender to things that do not need it. In some languages to words for non living objects.
Yeah, the point of that I believe was Nic picked up on Harry's loneliness and need for female companionship... So he tossed Lasciel's coin his way, and she morphed into the illusion called Shelia, who had him fooled until Butters pointed out there was no Shelia. I guess the idea was the greater the emotional attachment to more likely that Harry would take up the coin.
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Yeah, the point of that I believe was Nic picked up on Harry's loneliness and need for female companionship... So he tossed Lasciel's coin his way, and she morphed into the illusion called Shelia, who had him fooled until Butters pointed out there was no Shelia. I guess the idea was the greater the emotional attachment to more likely that Harry would take up the coin.
Sure Sheila was an illusion of a female but Lash and Lasciel are not illusions. They certainly present themselves as female. They probably self identify as female even without a body.
But then corpstaker was still a women whatever body she inhabited. I suppose.
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Sure Sheila was an illusion of a female but Lash and Lasciel are not illusions. They certainly present themselves as female. They probably self identify as female even without a body.
But then corpstaker was still a women whatever body she inhabited. I suppose.
Yeah, but the illusion of Shelia was meant to seduce Harry, once he was seduced, Lasciel would step in. If Shelia was a guy named Chad, Harry's natural defenses and wateriness wouldn't have dropped half so fast.
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Yeah, but the illusion of Shelia was meant to seduce Harry, once he was seduced, Lasciel would step in. If Shelia was a guy named Chad, Harry's natural defenses and wateriness wouldn't have dropped half so fast.
Sure but the question was are Lash and Lasciel females or is gender meaningless for them?
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Sure but the question was are Lash and Lasciel females or is gender meaningless for them?
Apparently not, Lash/Lasciel had a child with Id Harry, so in the effort to seduce and sway Harry, Lasciel became very much a female.. Also the times when Lasciel's shadow or Lash allows Harry to see her, it is always a "she." The gender is unmistakable. Where as when Uriel appears, there is no doubt that he is a he, even when he takes on the appearence of a mortal, i.e. Jake. So either there are two genders or more among angels, or when Lasciel fell, she decided she'd be a she... Do we know the sex of Deidre's Fallen? That may or may not give us a little more information. Andriel is a he, I am pretty certain.
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Is it up to him? I mean Mab can plot or Lara can plot, drug Harry, get some woman to go to bed and have sex with him when he is vulnerable... That's the end of his protection.. Now Mab might want to keep her Knight, but in revenge for what she thinks Harry did to Thomas.. She said as much on Demonreach, and Harry knows if she can she will get her revenge.
My guess is Lara will get even with Harry by making him do something, and most likely something that Harry won't like, in order to settle the balance between them. Whatever Lara will demand of Harry, it will be something reasonable from the standpoint of "getting even" but something that will probably make Harry look bad, especially to the White Council.
I think Lara wants to use Harry, not destroy him; at least on a conscious level. Of course, Lara's demon doesn't have a problem destroying anyone and can sometimes do what it wants regardless of what cold calculation would say is the best or smartest move to make.
I disagree about Harry being suicidal angry at Mab at the end of Battle Ground. He isn't, actually he understands on some level what she is trying to do and accepts alliances cemented by marriage. That doesn't mean he has to like it. Molly is the one that is really angry, most likely because she knows the real reasons behind it, hence the look she gave Lara after she and Harry battled the Kracken, the look that Harry admits now that he missed.. So stay tuned it isn't over and I doubt that there will be wedding bells..
Your post got me thinking. We know that Mab doesn't want Lara to devour Harry, but perhaps she doesn't have a problem with Lara controlling Harry. If Mab has enough leverage on Lara she could control Harry by proxy. Harry would still have free will; more or less, because it's not the same thing as complete mind control, but with Harry addicted to Lara, Mab wouldn't have to take the time to find ways to force Harry to do her bidding. If Molly even suspects that is what Mab is trying to achieve it would explain her anger.
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It would make Harry less effective so no. I think Mab is pretty transparant about what she wants from Molly and Harry both.
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Your post got me thinking. We know that Mab doesn't want Lara to devour Harry, but perhaps she doesn't have a problem with Lara controlling Harry. If Mab has enough leverage on Lara she could control Harry by proxy. Harry would still have free will; more or less, because it's not the same thing as complete mind control, but with Harry addicted to Lara, Mab wouldn't have to take the time to find ways to force Harry to do her bidding. If Molly even suspects that is what Mab is trying to achieve it would explain her anger.
Oh, wow... Now you got me thinking... That's actually not a bad strategy at all, I think. :o :o :o
I think Mab might use whatever methods would be more affective and cause her less grief. Now, what does she have that she can use to control Lara would be the question.
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Taking a ride back on the way back machine I am minded of the fact that the the wild fae were used as lanterns to light the path in White Knight.
"Of course," I said, "there's been some uncharacteristic behavior going around lately."
Lara tilted her head at me, frowning.
"Oh, come on," I said. "You think it's a little odd the faeries didn't immediately stomp all over the Red Court when they violated Unseelie territory a couple of years back? Don't tell me you're trapping the little faeries because it's cheaper than getting those paper party lanterns."
Lara narrowed her eyes at me.
"You're testing their reaction," I said. "Giving a minor but deliberate insult and seeing what happens."
Maybe it's get even time. You know how Mab is.
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Taking a ride back on the way back machine I am minded of the fact that the the wild fae were used as lanterns to light the path in White Knight.Maybe it's get even time. You know how Mab is.
Yes, but that was the little Folk that they used, and Harry forced them to free them. This is at heart as to why Toot and Za"Gard are so loyal to Harry, it isn't just the pizza. Mab might have miscalculated there, Took and Company took down the Summer Lady, there is no reason now that they have some experience that the couldn't take down the Winter Queen.. Mab better take care as to how she treats Harry and so should Lara, because they will have answer to Major-general Toot.
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Connect the dots for me. I'm suggesting that Mab might be taking revenge on Lara for using the wild fey in that fashion.
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I think people are forgetting something important about the look that Molly gave Lara at the beginning of BG. Word got around about the illusion of Lara and Harry getting it on. Molly might just be a little pissed about that, whether it be she knew that they were using some sort of illusion but not that they would be doing it in the illusion, or she thinks that it was real and so yet again Harry is with another person that is not her, even though she can't do anything because of the mantle.
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I think people are forgetting something important about the look that Molly gave Lara at the beginning of BG. Word got around about the illusion of Lara and Harry getting it on. Molly might just be a little pissed about that, whether it be she knew that they were using some sort of illusion but not that they would be doing it in the illusion, or she thinks that it was real and so yet again Harry is with another person that is not her, even though she can't do anything because of the mantle.
Oh! That's absolutely right! Word must have spread around that evening that Harry and Lara were getting it on. I don't see how Molly would have known that it wasn't true. I think only Lara, Freydis, Murph and Harry knew of the plan. Harry was keeping it all pretty hush.
I wonder how that also adds up to Harry's reputation, and people thinking that he's on the wrong side now. I mean, I wonder if people knew about him and Karrin being an item, like Ramirez for example. If he did, isn't that another reason to think ill of Harry? Like, now he's a guy who on top of all the other stuff, also cheats on his partner?
But anyway, I think you're pointing out something very important.
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Oh! That's absolutely right! Word must have spread around that evening that Harry and Lara were getting it on. I don't see how Molly would have known that it wasn't true. I think only Lara, Freydis, Murph and Harry knew of the plan. Harry was keeping it all pretty hush.
I wonder how that also adds up to Harry's reputation, and people thinking that he's on the wrong side now. I mean, I wonder if people knew about him and Karrin being an item, like Ramirez for example. If he did, isn't that another reason to think ill of Harry? Like, now he's a guy who on top of all the other stuff, also cheats on his partner?
But anyway, I think you're pointing out something very important.
It was definitely a deliberate move from Lara and Freydis, making it look like Harry is already in the White Court's thrall before the marriage comes up rather than being 100% forced into it.
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But if that was the case, would there not have been some sort of reaction targeting Harry also?
A wounded look, not being in a joking mood, something?
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So I'm watching this interview again, and the podcasters asked about when we'd see Thomas again. They all want to know when they'd see him again, because the feared missing him. JB's reply was "you could say he hasn't grown very much". Perhaps Demonreach is the Chrysalis and Thomas is the soon to be more powerfull butterfly.
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So I'm watching this interview again, and the podcasters asked about when we'd see Thomas again. They all want to know when they'd see him again, because the feared missing him. JB's reply was "you could say he hasn't grown very much". Perhaps Demonreach is the Chrysalis and Thomas is the soon to be more powerfull butterfly.
Yes, Jim had a chance to make him interesting for a while, at the end of Turn Coat after Shaggy had at him for a while. Harry was taken aback, his brother or at least the human part of him had gone. Thomas for a while at any rate was pure cold predator.. Harry didn't know how to deal with him, but by the next book Thomas was what he always was as was the relationship.
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So I'm watching this interview again, and the podcasters asked about when we'd see Thomas again. They all want to know when they'd see him again, because the feared missing him. JB's reply was "you could say he hasn't grown very much". Perhaps Demonreach is the Chrysalis and Thomas is the soon to be more powerfull butterfly.
Makes me wonder if being faced with all the badness he has ever done and then being given time to reflect on it, and possibly to confront his Demon might give him greater control. We know the Demon can feed on any emotion - different houses just choose to specialize in different emotions - pain, fear, and lust. What if he were to... recalibrate to Hope or Love. Would he be able to feed from the angel within a holy sword of that type? Imagine a white court vampire fed by an angel wielding a holy sword...
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Lash and Lasciel are not illusions. They certainly present themselves as female. They probably self identify as female even without a body.
Dresdenverse angels seem to be loosely on the Catholic model which as I understand it (and I am not a theologian) do not really have gender as we would define it.
I am not sure how much of what we see of them is "put on" to interact with humans vs inherent.
Lash (vs Lasciel) is a slightly different case as she is not a true angel but an imprint/shadow in Dresden's brain so probably is more "human-influenced". Lash probably is female but I am not so sure about Lasciel proper.
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It would make Harry less effective so no. I think Mab is pretty transparant about what she wants from Molly and Harry both.
Mab also seems to believe that if Harry can't measure up to her standards, then he wasn't worth it anyway, though.
Lara is clearly prohibited from killing Harry by feeding, but I am not sure "influence" is off limits - Mab probably expects Harry to be able to deal with that.
Mab would not want to lose control of Harry, but if Lara has obligations to Mab...
Although, given Starborn "mind control resistance" can Lara enthrall him? Mab could mess with his memories in SmF, but his Starborn powers don't seem to have been "fully awakened" then.
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Mab also seems to believe that if Harry can't measure up to her standards, then he wasn't worth it anyway, though.
Lara is clearly prohibited from killing Harry by feeding, but I am not sure "influence" is off limits - Mab probably expects Harry to be able to deal with that.
Mab would not want to lose control of Harry, but if Lara has obligations to Mab...
Although, given Starborn "mind control resistance" can Lara enthrall him? Mab could mess with his memories in SmF, but his Starborn powers don't seem to have been "fully awakened" then.
I don't think he even knew what a star born was let alone that he was one. After all the training Harry and Molly did, sparing to hone their mental defenses, I doubt Lara can enthrall him now, even without his star born status.
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I don't think he even knew what a star born was let alone that he was one.
Yeah, exactly. His status still seems to have had some effect vs HWWBehind, but I think it was in some way "awakened" by the events of Changes/Ghost Story and what he learned, so that by CD he can resist HWWBefore's mental attack, strike back, and get its Name (whereas he needed Lash's help to partially resist a similar attack in WN).
EDIT: typo, Behind/Before
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Yeah, exactly. His status still seems to have had some effect vs HWWBehind, but I think it was in some way "awakened" by the events of Changes/Ghost Story and what he learned, so that by CD he can resist HWWBefore's mental attack, strike back, and get its Name (whereas he needed Lash's help to partially resist a similar attack in WN).
EDIT: typo, Behind/Before
As a terrified sixteen year old kid he was just trying to survive in what will eventually become classic smart ass Harry when confronting something beyond his weight class. However when he witnessed HWWB brutally murder, something in him changed, it awoke something in him, and he did what future Harry will always do, he will fight that. However what he has always lacked and still lacks is information. Lash gave him some, but there was no time for the full story. Eb dances around it, as do everyone else on the Council, it is like they seem to think that it better that Harry get misinformation as opposed to information.
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Mab also seems to believe that if Harry can't measure up to her standards, then he wasn't worth it anyway, though.
She spent a lot of time recovering him from death. She is not going to waste that investment on something that is clearly not in his weight class.
Kringle said so in Skin game anyway.
Lara is clearly prohibited from killing Harry by feeding, but I am not sure "influence" is off limits - Mab probably expects Harry to be able to deal with that.
It goes further than that. Anny nibbling from Mab’s porridge will sent the bears. Which is logical. Feeding is an attack and you don’t attack your allies.
Mab woelt not want to lose control of Harry, but if Lara has obligations to Mab...
Although, given Starborn "mind control resistance" can Lara enthrall him? Mab could mess with his memories in SmF, but his Starborn powers don't seem to have been "fully awakened" then.
Lara is not an outsider.
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She spent a lot of time recovering him from death. She is not going to waste that investment on something that is clearly not in his weight class.
Absolutely... but Lara's not out of Harry's weight class, except politically as a sort-of head of state. She's not actually that powerful personally as shown in Turn Coat, it's who she can order around.
Feeding is an attack and you don’t attack your allies.
That would make a lot of sense... I am not sure it is quite so clear cut that White Court feeding is always an attack though... in the vast majority of cases absolutely yes... but see Thomas at the hair salon or Bigfoot on Campus...
There seem to be degrees of White Court influence too. In BR Harry has True Love protection but he is still affected by Lara's supernatural presence. So there may be the possibility of mental influence without feeding.
Lara is not an outsider.
True - but is the Starborn mind-resistance necessarily limited to outsiders alone?
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True - but is the Starborn mind-resistance necessarily limited to outsiders alone?
I'd say not, even with the almost useless mind defenses taught by the White Council, Harry was able to resist the Corpsetaker back in Dead Beat. He ended up losing it is true, but he lasted a while.
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I think Thomas in the hair salon is definitely an attack. It is a minor one and it goes unnoticed but that does not negate what he is doing.
Thomas misleads his victims, addicts them and steals from them. Their essential life force. Not that much of course but there is a principle at stake here.
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I think Thomas in the hair salon is definitely an attack. It is a minor one and it goes unnoticed but that does not negate what he is doing.
Thomas misleads his victims, addicts them and steals from them. Their essential life force. Not that much of course but there is a principle at stake here.
I don't know if you can exactly call that mind control though. Thomas isn't a wizard, he is a vampire.. Then again it is mind control because he controls his victims through pleasure, I guess you could call what he was doing, "grooming," no pun intended. He grooms his victims much like a pedophile does children, if Thomas was really evil or wanted to, they'd then be perfectly set up for him to feed upon them until death.
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I have wondered about Mab, Harry and Lara -- in particular, can Mab "do something" about Lara's Hunger -- at least where Harry is concerned.
Recall in Changes that Auntie Lea put Martin and Susan's hunger to "sleep." In Summer Knight, Mother Winter offered Harry an Unravelling that would "cure" Susan.
These incidents suggest that Winter (in this case Mab) could come up with a solution
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I have wondered about Mab, Harry and Lara -- in particular, can Mab "do something" about Lara's Hunger -- at least where Harry is concerned.
Recall in Changes that Auntie Lea put Martin and Susan's hunger to "sleep." In Summer Knight, Mother Winter offered Harry an Unravelling that would "cure" Susan.
These incidents suggest that Winter (in this case Mab) could come up with a solution
But I don't think any of the solutions can be undertaken lightly. If I remember correctly there also was a reason why Lea couldn't keep the hunger aspect asleep forever. Also I doubt that the Mothers give away the unraveling that easy. I also doubt that Lara would want to be "cured" she likes the way that she is.
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She would loose her power, her position, her usefulness as an ally and thus as a bride for Harry and then soon her life.
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She would loose her power, her position, her usefulness as an ally and thus as a bride for Harry and then soon her life.
If you mean Susan? First of all, she'd have been a mortal vanilla human again.. She still could have told Harry she didn't want to marry him, but her dilemma would be she'd want to use him for supernatural scoops, so she wouldn't totally drop him. That could get her killed, but her choice. If she was cured, she would have been in no danger in turning, thus becoming the youngest vampire, so Harry wouldn't have had to cut her throat.. Their kid still would have died because the Red King wanted his revenge on Eb's bloodline, but Susan would live on, however Harry wouldn't have..
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Oh I thought someone was shipping Lara again.
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Oh I thought someone was shipping Lara again.
I thought you meant Susan, because Lea did put her vamp half to sleep, but Lea said she could only do it for a short time, but I cannot remember why not.
Lara might still be useful as an ally if she could fake it as far as being a vamp goes. Look how long her father managed to hide the fact that he couldn't feed.