“Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are.
“Could Uriel have chosen to help Harry if he had wanted to, or is there actually some universal limit that prevents him from directly influencing the world in such overt fashion?”
A little of both. Technically, it was /possible/ for Uriel to act directly, but the consequences would have been extreme, both for him and for the mortal world–to the point where you’d have to be moderately insane to do it. Or else, really, really committed to some kind of personal moral compass that was 90 degrees off true.
The last angel to do that is a little notorious.
Q: Does Lasciel's shadow get to heaven because she redeemed herself?
A: The answer to that is so complicated than is easy to give, especially without giving out extra story and ruining the fun. No. Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven. And now, (sing song) I'm not gonna tell you.
Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
Lasciel’s story is not over. And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’ Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
"If it's no big deal," I said, "then why is it so interesting?"
"Oh, well," Bob said. "It is energy, you know. And I wonder if maybe...maybe...well, look, Harry. There was a tiny bit of Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to hellfire. That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."
"So it was running off my soul? Like I'm some kind of battery?"
“Hey,” Bob said, “don’t get all righteous. You gave it to her. Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise free will.” Bob shook his head. Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me. I’m glad I don’t have it. Ugh, no, thank you. But you gave her some. You gave her a name. The will came with it.”
"I can't," she replied, her voice anguished. "She would never forgive that. Never accept me back into her...just take the coin. Harry, just take the coin. P-please."
[and later when she agrees to actually help]
"I..." She shook her head and said, very softly, wonderingly, "She...doesn't deserve you."
Deserved or not, the fallen angel wasn't getting me. Not ever.
Lasciel squared her sholders and straightened. "You're right," she said. "It is my choice...
Ever been carrying something and had someone intentionally, unexpectedly jostle your elbow? It felt something like that- a tiny but critically timed nudge just as I threw my will into a last futile effort of defiance.
"So what you're saying is that this hand construct was made out of my soul," I said.
"Your soul and your magic fused together, yeah," Bob said. "Your soul converted into energy. Soulfire."
I grunted. "So what you're saying is that soulfire doesn't let me do anything new. It just makes me more of what I already am."
"A lot more," Bob said, nodding cheerfully from his shelf. "It's how angels do all of their stuff."
The main part of that theory that I have a problem with is that Lash isn't technically an angelic being. She's an imprint of a fallen angel. She's literally a part of Harry's mind that has been "flashed" with an image of Lasciel.
Then again, "that which holds the image of an angel becomes itself an angel." So your point is valid. Also, Rashid is the 12th Doctor.
So your point is valid. Also, Rashid is the 12th Doctor.
If in order to be an angelic being, said being has to have been around since the dawn of time, then yah she isn't one. However, if you can cleave a small part off a powerful angelic being, and it becomes it's own separate entity, I'm theorizing it is still an angelic being.
If in order to be an angelic being, said being has to have been around since the dawn of time, then yah she isn't one. However, if you can cleave a small part off a powerful angelic being, and it becomes it's own separate entity, I'm theorizing it is still an angelic being.Sorry, I was making a Dr. Who crossover with these last comments, my brain kind of froze after that.
You lost me with the Rashid comment...
It's an interesting theory. Where do you see it coming up in the story? Lash's "resurrection" as a capital-A Angel to assist Harry in some way? Screams BAT to me. If we could get Lasciel on one of Harry's shoulders and Lash on the other that'd...that'd just be super.
Also, always happy to see how many DF fans are DW fans too!
What roll will Lasciel play in future books?
That's going to be another one of those where I go "Hahaha, I know and you don't" because, you know, it's the whole, I want to provide for my family thing. Were're not done with Lasciel. We might not even be totally done with Lash, but we will have to see how that goes.
In the years since Jim made that comment though, other people have asked about this again and Jim has explicitly said that both Lasciel, and Lash's stories are not done.
One thing is pretty certain though. A 100% cooperative and reliable Lash in Harry's head was too much of an overpowering advantage for Harry to have in the first half of the Series, plus she knew too much about the mysterious back story of his parents, and as such, she had to be offed.
Would Lash changing teams have any effect on her and/or Harry’s ability to access hellfire.
This could poke a hole in your theory, place a time for her rebellion, or be completely meaningless, depending on the answer.
Would Lash changing teams have any effect on her and/or Harry’s ability to access hellfire.
This could poke a hole in your theory, place a time for her rebellion, or be completely meaningless, depending on the answer.
I really hope she doesn't come back. One of the worst parts of the books imo. Besides being overpowered and letting Harry know or do anything when he needed to (speak any language, play the guitar, memorize anything, hellfire) I really, really disliked the interactions with his subconcious inside his head.
Serack
My take: When Lash rebelled against her originator, the bit of lasciel's energy that was giving Harry access to hellfire was either destroyed of fundamentally changed to the point where it was no longer the same thing... I.E. Soulfire and Hellfire are 2 sides of the same coin and that coin had now flipped. So yah he wouldn't have access to hell fire any more (He didn't obviously) and instead he had access to soulfire, he just didn't know it/didn't know how to access it.
QuoteSerack
My take: When Lash rebelled against her originator, the bit of lasciel's energy that was giving Harry access to hellfire was either destroyed of fundamentally changed to the point where it was no longer the same thing... I.E. Soulfire and Hellfire are 2 sides of the same coin and that coin had now flipped. So yah he wouldn't have access to hell fire any more (He didn't obviously) and instead he had access to soulfire, he just didn't know it/didn't know how to access it.
The problem I have with this statement is that you are essentially suggesting that a mere imprint of a time immortal being was able to give Harry access to Soulfire. The reason I think that Lash allowed Harry the use of Hellfire is because that is the nature of the Denarians. They offer power, and Lasciel herself is known as The Temptress. If that is her nature, then offering a small sampling of power in exchange for binding his soul is well within her nature, thus the imprint is allowed to give access to Hellfire.
Harry gave Lash, a mere shadow free will, to go against her creator, but to say that the mere shadow that was Lash gave Harry access to Soulfire, and allowed him to use it after she was no longer present within him as far as we know, I find that to be an extreme stretch.
Furthermore, in Turn Coat, Uriel himself converses with Harry, informing him of the good side actually doing something, just not in a noticeable way at first, then Mab appears and gives us a little backstory regarding Uriel. If Lash gave Harry the ability to use Soulfire, then you are essentially saying that Jim Butcher himself planted Uriel, a freaking Archangel, in the series as a red herring. Possible? Yes. But I disagree.
The question I most want to ask Jim is: Does mortal access to soulfire/helfire require "angelic" sponsorship? Does this sponsorship require active investment from the sponsor?
Can any mortal pratictioner use Soulfire, or does mortal access to soulfire/helfire require "angelic" sponsorship? Does this sponsorship require active investment from the sponsor?
Slightly reworded the questionI'm pretty sure that the second part of that question would get the answer "I'm not gonna tell you!" in a singsong voice. Because if the sponsorship required active investment each time Harry used soulfire it may either confirm Uriel helping Harry on a regular basis, or Lash still being around in some form.
The only way for Lash to be gone, is for her to be 'absorbed' when the coin is taken up.
Furthermore, in Turn Coat, Uriel himself converses with Harry, informing him of the good side actually doing something, just not in a noticeable way at first, then Mab appears and gives us a little backstory regarding Uriel. If Lash gave Harry the ability to use Soulfire, then you are essentially saying that Jim Butcher himself planted Uriel, a freaking Archangel, in the series as a red herring. Possible? Yes. But I disagree.
Second Derivative Theory:
Uriel didn't give Harry Soulfire
It is my theory that if my above "Foundation Theory, and First Derivative Theory are true, then when Uriel “jostled Harry’s elbow”xrt#3 he did not invest part of his own energy into Harry to give him access, but rather nudged Harry into pulling the trigger on the Soulfire gun that was already in his hand, and made available to him through his latent connection with Lash who had already used Soulfire. This would make Uriel’s “favor” a truly small one, and reinforces the Foundational Theory. (props to LML for the trigger/gun analogy)
Second Derivative Theory:
Uriel didn't give Harry Soulfire
It is my theory that if my above "Foundation Theory, and First Derivative Theory are true, then when Uriel “jostled Harry’s elbow”xrt#3 he did not invest part of his own energy into Harry to give him access, but rather nudged Harry into pulling the trigger on the Soulfire gun that was already in his hand, and made available to him through his latent connection with Lash who had already used Soulfire. This would make Uriel’s “favor” a truly small one, and reinforces the Foundational Theory. (props to LML for the trigger/gun analogy)
Somewhere, in all of that, I touched on something that wasn’t tapped out, in spite of how horrible the past days had been, something that hadn’t gone cold and numb inside of me. I grasped it, held it in my hand like a firefly, and willed its energy out, into the circle I had created with the spinning amulet on the end of its chain. It began to glow, azure-blue like a candle flame. The light spread down the chain and to the amulet, and when it reached it the light became incandescent, the pentacle a brilliant light at the end of the chain..." Kindle location 4354
"If it's no big deal," I said, "then why is it so interesting?"Now I'm going to wonder if Dresden will give Bob a little unwelcome gift later on.
"Oh, well," Bob said. "It is energy, you know. And I wonder if maybe...maybe...well, look, Harry. There was a tiny bit of Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to hellfire. That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."
"So it was running off my soul? Like I'm some kind of battery?"
“Hey,” Bob said, “don’t get all righteous. You gave it to her. Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise free will.” Bob shook his head. Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me. I’m glad I don’t have it. Ugh, no, thank you. But you gave her some. You gave her a name. The will came with it.”
Now I'm going to wonder if Dresden will give Bob a little unwelcome gift later on.
Harry was a good person before, but he couldn't always use it. And he's made morally grey decisions since and still has the soulfire going strong. So I'd assume it needs to be activated by an angelic being, rather than by being good.
Uriel's expression darkened for a moment. "And I am telling you that I am very limited in terms of what I can do to help you," he said. "Limited, in fact, to what I have already done."
"Yeah," I said. "Soulfire. Just about killed myself with that one. Thanks."
"No one is making you use it. Dresden. It's your choice."
Allow me to elaborate on the Lash gives Harry Soulfire theory.
We know Uriel likes to kill two birds with one stone, so it is a fair assumption he always does so at every possible opportunity. I agree Uriel gave Harry soulfire. This raises the question, what other bird did Uriel kill? The answer to that is revealed by analzing how Uriel gave Harry soulfire.
From WoJ, we know Fallen Angels have access to Hellfire and Soulfire, and which they use depends upon their nature. Lash is at least related to Fallen Angels and could potentially retain the ability to use Hellfire/Soulfire. In WN, Harry gives Lash part of his soul, giving her enough free will to make a choice regarding her nature, specifically whether she will be a monster (Lasciel's puppet) or not - she chooses the latter and sacrifices her life. From WoJ, we know that Lash's choice closely parallels a later choice made by another. From WoJ we also know Lash's personality was influenced by Harry. Thus, it makes sense that her choice would parallel one made later by Harry.
Fast forward to Changes/GS and we see Harry is presented with the same choice - whether he will become a monster (and Mab's puppet) or not and he chooses the latter, committing assisted suicide. In GS, we discover the result of Harry's choice - Uriel offers to send him on a soul-finding journey that eventually results in the return of his soul to his body so that he would have an opportunity to complete his redemption. Since Lash's choice in WN parallels Harry's choice in Changes/GS, we can infer the same thing happened off-scene to Lash. In other words, when she died, Uriel gave her an opportunity to complete her redemption.
The problem, however, is that Lash doesn't have a body and Uriel can't just return her to Harry's body, because that would be cheating. Enter SmF, where the Denarians cheat, giving Uriel a chance to balance the scales by giving Harry soulfire. Rather than giving Harry direct access to Soulfire (one bird) Uriel accomplishes this by restoring Lash to Harry's body, which allows Lash to give Harry Soulfire (two birds). Potentially, Uriel also foresaw that he would need Lash to help preserve Harry's free will in GS (three birds). In further support, we know Uriel likes to work through tools (see the Warrior - Harry is Uriel's tool). Thus, it seems likely Uriel used a tool (Lash) to give Harry Soulfire.
Finally, I'd like to carry this one step further. If Uriel used Lash as a tool to complete his cheat in SmF, it seems likely he also used Lash as a tool to compete his cheat in GS. Thus, I propose that Uriel did not whisper 7 words into Harry's ear; rather, he gave Lash the ability to speak (one bird) so that she could whisper 7 words into Harry's ear (two birds). As further evidence for this last proposition, note that the 7 words called Mab a liar, while WoJ confirms Mab is not a liar, she was simply wrong. That's not a mistake Uriel would make. However, Lash, as a creature with a soul, has more free will than Uriel and more human emotions and given that she faced a similar choice as Harry and seems attached to Harry, she is likely rather passionate about the issue of free will. In her passion, Lash might call Mab a liar rather than calling her wrong.
Uriel's expression darkened for a moment. "And I am telling you that I am very limited in terms of what I can do to help you," he said. "Limited, in fact, to what I have already done."
"Yeah," I said. "Soulfire. Just about killed myself with that one. Thanks."
"No one is making you use it. Dresden. It's your choice."
Time Traveling might tie into an exchange of places with Subconcious Harry. And, it could involve phrase: no matter where you go... there you are. That phrase is alluded by Uriel at the end of Ghost Story. It was originally told to him by Subconscious Harry in Fool Moon. It could also simply be that Uriel wants Harry to meet Sub Harry again and his new partner-in-crime Lash.
Lash was apparently able to gain free will from harry, a mortal. Can mortals potentially grant free will to other supernaturals like vampires and faries?”
That’s… a spectacularly complicated question, really. :)
Lash didn’t gain free will, per se. Lash gained individuality, became a singular entity, self-motivated and distinct from the personality of Lasciel the Fallen. That personality was strongly influenced by Dresden, who believes very strongly in individual choice and responsibility, but doesn’t necessarily equate to free will in the sense of what mortals possess.
You might note that Lash essentially committed suicide with her “free will.” A choice which rather strongly resembles another choice a few books later in the series.
"If it's no big deal," I said, "then why is it so interesting?"
"Oh, well," Bob said. "It is energy, you know. And I wonder if maybe...maybe...well, look, Harry. There was a tiny bit of Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to hellfire. That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."
"So it was running off my soul? Like I'm some kind of battery?"
“Hey,” Bob said, “don’t get all righteous. You gave it to her. Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise free will.” Bob shook his head. Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me. I’m glad I don’t have it. Ugh, no, thank you. But you gave her some. You gave her a name. The will came with it.”