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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on February 07, 2013, 01:09:19 AM

Title: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 07, 2013, 01:09:19 AM
There was a WoJ somewhere (I can't find it now) that talked about how he repetitively uses words for characters, in order to quickly invoke a particular recognition in the reader.  He talked about silver eyes and others for Thomas, as well as other Wamps.  The boards have noticed that mildewy and stale seem to be associated with Cowl's gates.

What I decided to look for was common usages of the terms applied to Outsiders, now that we've had more direct exposure to them.  This isn't a definitive theory, so much as pointing out the possibilities. 

KEY WORDS
The following words and combinations are commonly found describing Outsiders, Outsider magic, and mordite from the outside:
 - 'cold and greasy'
 - 'cold and oily'.
 - 'familiar'
 - 'nauseating'
 - 'cloying'
 - 'slithered'

Evidence
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Analysis
First, the world cold is used to describe pretty much every dark magic in the series.  So I only considered the word cold noteworthy when in combination with the other words.  The same goes for slither, and all its variations.  It has been used widely, whereas others, such as oily and greasy, are only used to describe people's hair or particular types of dark magic.

My opinion is that we may be able to differentiate those who have been infected by the use of these key words in the description of their power.  Or the lack there-of, in some instances.

The Usual Suspects
Kravos - Infection Possible.  There were a multitude of times Harry felt Kravos' power, including consuming some himself, but only this instance of feeling 'naseuating' power.  The other descriptions are closer to the dark, emptiness used to describe Mavra's style.
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Mavra - Infection Unlikely.  While described as cold, the dark and empty connotations aren't used for Outsiders specifically, except for the speculated emptiness around Raith, and the emptiness around Mordite.
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Bianca - Infection Unlikely.  While she may very well have been infected, the words used to describe her magic are like those of Mavra.  It's not condemning, like those used to describe Outsiders themselves.
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Elaine - Infection HIGHLY PROBABLE.  Elaine uses magic several times in SK and WN, but the only time she uses magic for evil is when she casts the mind fog.  In that instance, Harry notes feeling almost every single key word for Outsiders.  What's more, he picked more of that same feeling (for the first time) when he returned home and found her under DuMorne's compulsion.
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Thorned Namshiel - Infection Possible.  We know that Mab has assumed Namshiel worked with the other Infected to attack Arctis Tor and free Lea.  In one instance of his magic use, Namshiel was described with some key words.
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Arianna - Infection Possible.  A key-word combo was used for her magic in Ch.  We know she had ties to Bianca, who had ties to Cowl & Kumori.  Whether they somehow managed to get Arianna infected is questionable.
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The Well - Outsider Imprisonment Possible.  Several key-words were used to describe the power of the Well in CD.  Whether this was due to some Outsiders being imprisoned there, or simply a combo of all of the evilness, is up to interpretation.
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Cowl - Infection Doubtful.  Despite having personally helped infecting Lea, and knowing of Outsiders working with Ramps in DB, Harry's description of Cowl's magic specifically points out the lack of the tell-tale key-words.
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Kumori - Infection Doubtful.  Same for Kumori.  Harry notes the lack of nastiness when it comes to her power.
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In Conclusion
For me, the most condemning was Elaine's use of the mind fog.  The others aren't too bad, with only one or two words in common.  But Elaine's exposure under DuMorne, combined with the mind fog description, almost matches Outsider descriptions perfectly.

Make of it what you will.  If we include the emptiness and darkness used to describe mordite and Raith's protection, then maybe Mavra and the others are infected as well.  Or maybe there are only so many words that JB can use to describe nasty black magic, and there's no correlation.  My current guess is that there's something to it, but we won't know for sure for a while.

Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Second Aristh on February 07, 2013, 01:14:40 AM
There was a WoJ somewhere (I can't find it now) that talked about how he repetitively uses words for characters, in order to quickly invoke a particular recognition in the reader. 
It was from Jim's LiveJournal, not on here.  Here's an excerpt (more here:  http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/ )
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Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Ziggelly on February 07, 2013, 02:41:11 AM
Ohh... I like this.
Now I get to read through all the Elaine chapters again with even more paranoia in my mind.
Excellent.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: rekshek on February 07, 2013, 02:44:02 AM
Thank you for putting this together, really interesting, will use this as a guide to look forward in new books :P.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Sue on February 07, 2013, 04:39:46 AM
Thank you for putting this together, really interesting, will use this as a guide to look forward in new books :P.
Interesting insights ... they make sense too. I think I'm going to read Jim's Live Journal now ... thanks!
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Mortax on February 07, 2013, 05:04:29 AM
You've got my vote. :)

There was some discussion on the similarity to the feeling of the events in PG with the fetches and the fog in summer knight some time ago.  I've always been suspisiouse of Elaine.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32157

Your conclusions convince me even more.

I mean, an ex returned from the dead, that appears helpful?

Anna Sheridan anyone?

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Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: madness on February 07, 2013, 05:07:29 AM
Interesting plan and interesting theories.

The overlap between Harry's description of dark magic and Outsider magic is so great that I don't know that we can distinguish between the two using keywords. :(
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Mortax on February 07, 2013, 05:10:40 AM
Whose to say there isn't a huge overlap on purpose?

After all, trafficking with outsiders and opening the outer gates are seen as black magic.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: peregrine on February 07, 2013, 06:01:38 AM
Isn't there a reference to familiarity when Cowl opens up his gate in the Deeps, re: the musty, stagnant smell?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Mortax on February 07, 2013, 06:03:10 AM
I can't remember if it's there, or when Peabody opens his gate.  (Which would likely be a reference to that one.)
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 07, 2013, 06:10:00 AM
Isn't there a reference to familiarity when Cowl opens up his gate in the Deeps, re: the musty, stagnant smell?

He says something about it feeling familiar to what he felt in Mexico either when Cowl first opens the gates or late in the battle IIRC.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 07, 2013, 07:06:52 AM
Isn't there a reference to familiarity when Cowl opens up his gate in the Deeps, re: the musty, stagnant smell?

Harry describes almost everything bad as slightly familiar.  But the key words for Cowl's gates are mildew and such.  And the same is used for Peabody's gate location.  That's one of the reasons I think they worked together.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: madness on February 07, 2013, 11:42:02 AM
That description of Corpsetaker's magic sounds Outsider related.  I didn't catch the specific references on my last re-read. :(
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 07, 2013, 12:27:10 PM
So you're saying that Cowl and Kumori are not infected?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 07, 2013, 12:48:19 PM
So you're saying that Cowl and Kumori are not infected?

It looks more like he's saying that it's doubtful they're infected really. ;D
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Cruness on February 07, 2013, 01:20:55 PM
If Elaine was infected, I would bet money that Part of what Dumorne was doing when "Entralling" Harry and Elaine included infecting them. If Elaine was infected then, it makes sense for her to be the source of Aurora's infection.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: SAZ on February 07, 2013, 01:52:17 PM
Very nice – thanks
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Tarion on February 07, 2013, 02:18:36 PM
Something to consider with this - The Outsider backed Entropy curse in Blood Rites.
Quote
with an effort of will I caught the dark power coursing down into the girl before it could do her harm.
Pain erupted in my left palm. The power was cold—and not mountain-breeze cold, either. It was slimy and nauseating, like something that had come slinking out from the depths of some enormous subterranean sea. In that instant of contact, my head exploded with terror. This power, this black magic, was wrong. Fundamentally, nightmarishly, intensely wrong.

The other thing to watch out for is that greasy is also used a fair bit for the Red Court's bat-like form, alongside slimy (and flabby, but I suspect that's less relevant). 

(click to show/hide)

So Arianna's power being greasy might just be because she herself is greasy, rather than because of an Outside influence. 
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: MrCraigyT on February 07, 2013, 02:26:30 PM
Quote
Elaine - Infection HIGHLY PROBABLE.  Elaine uses magic several times in SK and WN, but the only time she uses magic for evil is when she casts the mind fog.  In that instance, Harry notes feeling almost every single key word for Outsiders.  What's more, he picked more of that same feeling (for the first time) when he returned home and found her under DuMorne's compulsion.

i posted somthing simalr about elain when cold days first came out. im thinking that when justin had here enthraled he also infected her with nemasis maby intentionaly maby not. but i dout nemisis would skip the chance to infect a wizard level practitioner. and i think it a prety safe bet to say justin was infected to. what with him workin for he who walks behind. yep i said for not with i thik justin was the walkers laky.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: MrCraigyT on February 07, 2013, 02:40:31 PM
Quote
The other thing to watch out for is that greasy is also used a fair bit for the Red Court's bat-like form, alongside slimy (and flabby, but I suspect that's less relevant).

complet stab in the dark here. but vamps are demos from som where ells reaching in to someones soul and infecting it right...at least that what the white court vamps looked like when harry soul gazed tomas. so could it be posible that at least with the red that the dmon infecting the mortal could be an outsider??? cluching at staws here i know but its a posibility.

also i remeber the descrpition of the outsider gouls that cowl sent in to the raith deeps was it somthing along the lines of discsting and gotesc kind of like the decripton for red vamp....havn't got the books to had so I can't say for sure..
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: 123456789blaaa on February 07, 2013, 04:11:32 PM
What about the Eldest Fetch's and Lord Raiths magic immunity?  I remember those two both being described similarly.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 07, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
What about the Eldest Fetch's and Lord Raiths magic immunity?  I remember those two both being described similarly.

I'm inclined to put the fire being put out in Arctis Tor as being just a feature of where they were rather than anything else, force spells worked just fine against Eldest Fetch for example and fire spells used against it outside Arctis Tor simply did the "splash off harmlessly" thing rather than stopping way before they got there.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: 123456789blaaa on February 07, 2013, 04:50:49 PM
I'm inclined to put the fire being put out in Arctis Tor as being just a feature of where they were rather than anything else, force spells worked just fine against Eldest Fetch for example and fire spells used against it outside Arctis Tor simply did the "splash off harmlessly" thing rather than stopping way before they got there.

I found Neuros argument pretty convincing:

Quote
Here is my preferred working hypothesis for what's going on in PG:

The Scarecrow is a "Black Council" agent - in this case a Circle agent.

Compare, Harry, p.476 of PG pb: "Consider all these things running around with more power than they should have had."  With p.366 ibid "This thing was no fetch, no changer of form and image and illusion. There was no shadowy mask over an amorphous form, no glamour altering its appearance, which my salve would have enabled me to see through.  This thing was a whole independent creature.  Except maybe it was a fetch so old and strong... "  (Emphasis mine.)  The "old strong fetch" theory is not what one might call confirmed.

Compare also, p. 368 ibid, "A lance of flame as thick as my wrist lashed out from the tip of the rod - and died two feet away from it, the burning energy of the strike swallowed by an unfathomable ocean of cold cold power."  That's not how entities toughing it out against Harry's fire from sheer resilience behave - see Grum in Reuel's apartment in SK, see Ursiel in DM.  What it is reminiscent of is Lord Raith's immunity to magic. Which we are pretty certain is Outsider based, which leads back to the Circle again.

Now "cold cold power" isn't exactly specific to the Outsiders of course. However, the similarity to Lord Raiths magic immunity clinches it for me (sorry to ask you again but a quote would be great).
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 07, 2013, 04:57:35 PM
Quote from: Proven Guilty Chapter 28
The resulting cannonball of blazing force struck the Scarecrow head-on while it was twenty feet away, exploding into a column of searing red flame, an inferno of heat and light that went off with enough force to throw the thing halfway across Lake Michigan.

Imagine my surprise when the Scarecrow stepped through my spell as if it had not existed. Its eyes regarded me with far too much awareness, and its arm moved, striking-snake fast.

This the quote you wanted me to provide?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: 123456789blaaa on February 07, 2013, 05:00:26 PM
This the quote you wanted me to provide?

I was talking about the description of Lord Raiths magic immunity actually. Sorry for not being clear  :-[.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 07, 2013, 05:14:45 PM
I was talking about the description of Lord Raiths magic immunity actually. Sorry for not being clear  :-[.

Quote from: Blood Rites Chapter 41
And felt nothing. Not just empty air and drifting dust, but nothing. A cold and somehow hungry emptiness that filled the space where he should have been. I'd felt something like it before, when I'd been near a mote of one of the deadliest substances that any world of flesh or spirit had ever known. My power, my magic, the flowing spirit of life, just vanished into it without getting near Raith.

Here you go.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Ben de Wal on February 07, 2013, 06:38:55 PM
You should add empty to your list. that’s how lord raith felt to harry when he has  outside protection
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: madness on February 07, 2013, 08:24:17 PM
I think that the empty, hungry part is probably key.

A 'reactive' coldness, perhaps.

I actually think that the mordite descriptions might tell us more about Outsider key words than the magic descriptions.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 08, 2013, 01:32:28 AM
i've had this idea, and i'm not sure if its original or not. but it seems to me using black magic twists you because magic is what weaves reality and the 'firmament' together. to use it against its design opens the way for the decadent energy of outside to get in you. sorta like a backlash effect. was waiting to make a theory thread on it after i could explain it better. but to summarise, black magic is related to outside energy and this is why it twists you, indeed why the laws were made originally. (harry being starborn gives him his natural affinity for dark magic IMO) could be way off, but i believe there is a connection. also seems like only mortals can use black magic,(or should i say use magic that is considered black? sidhe do things considered black magic in mortal hands without actually twinging their magic 'color') could this be because only mortals have choice? same with opening a summon from beyond.(not counting the fraud vampire who i don't consider immortal enough)
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 08, 2013, 05:19:54 AM
You should add empty to your list. that’s how lord raith felt to harry when he has  outside protection

  The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions.  My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders.  Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality.  And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty".  But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders.  There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.

It looks more like he's saying that it's doubtful they're infected really. ;D
Doubtful that they're infected.  I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection.  They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon. 

But the evidence was from DB.  Cowl was also badly injured at the end of that, and we haven't seen him properly in action since then.  So it's possible he's become infected by CD, but we don't know.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Mortax on February 08, 2013, 12:58:32 PM
  The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions.  My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders.  Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality.  And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty".  But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders.  There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected.  I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection.  They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon. 


I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders.  Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 08, 2013, 01:14:19 PM
I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders.  Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.

Quote from: Blood Rites Chapter 35
"He's protected," he said quietly. "Magic just slides off him."

"Even a death curse?"

"Useless," he said bitterly. "Raith is protected by something big. Maybe a big damned demon. Maybe even some old god. He can't be touched with magic."
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: 123456789blaaa on February 08, 2013, 11:57:22 PM
  The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions.  My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders.  Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality.  And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty".  But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders.  There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected.  I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection.  They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon. 

But the evidence was from DB.  Cowl was also badly injured at the end of that, and we haven't seen him properly in action since then.  So it's possible he's become infected by CD, but we don't know.

Mordite is from the Outside and the Mordite infused Mistfiend was referred to as an Outsider in CD (you may want to add the descriptions of it also BTW).  Also note that Harry describes Raiths magic immunity as very similar to being near Mordite (not just "empty").

Lord Raith knew about HWWB already for the curse. I believe the "something big" that was giving him his magic immunity was HWWB simply because it would be sort of dumb to call a freaking OUTSIDER (you know those things who want to devour reality) when any other entity of sufficient power could have sufficed. It makes much more sense if they have a prior working relationship.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 10, 2013, 11:23:14 PM
@Griffyn

So.

I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:

Basically you make two statements:

1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating

2. Elaine is infected

I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure they are linked to the infection.

Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.

Here is the description of the magic.

The murk:
Quote
“What the hell,” he said, and shook the light a few times. He had his hand on his gun, the restraining strap off, but he hadn’t drawn it yet. Good man. He knew as well as I did that the hotel was going to have far more panicked attendees than potential threats.

“We’ll try mine,” I said, and got the silver pentacle on its chain from around my neck. A gentle whisper and an effort of will and the amulet began to emit a pure, silver-blue light that reached into the darkness around us, burning it away as swiftly as it pressed in, until we could see for maybe fifteen feet around us. Beyond that was just a murky vagueness— not so much a cloud or a mist as a simple lack of light.
The ward:
Quote
struggled to ignore the sounds of frightened people in the dark and focused on my magical senses. I reached out to the cold and the gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spellworking, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.
Quote
I nodded once at him, turned, and plunged into the darkness, Rawlins at my back. Screams erupted around us, sometimes accompanied by the sight of stumbling, terrified people. Rawlins nudged them toward the walls, barked at them in a tone of pure paternal authority to stay near them, to move carefully for the exits. The gloom began to press in closer to me, and it became an effort of will to hold up the light in my amulet against it. A few steps more and the air grew even colder. Walking forward became an effort, like wading through waist-deep water. I had to lean against it, and I heard a grunt of effort come out of my mouth. “What’s wrong?” Rawlins asked, his voice tight.

We passed under one of the hotel’s emergency light fixtures, its floodlights only dim orange rings in the murk until my amulet’s light burned the shadows away. “Dark magic,” I growled through clenched teeth. “A kind of ward. Trying to keep me from moving ahead.”

We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.

So that would mean that the caster was not infected.

The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.

Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene.  Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.

So that would mean that it's Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.

Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.

To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2013, 02:48:39 AM
@Griffyn

So.

I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:

Basically you make two statements:

1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating

2. Elaine is infected

I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure there are linked to the infection.

Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.

Here is the description of the magic.

The murk:The ward:
We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.

So that would mean that the caster was not infected.

The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.

Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene.  Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.

So that would mean that it's either Maeve or Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.

Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.

To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

My first intention was to make an observation of key words in use to describe Outsiders, specifically used to describe their magic or magical essence. 

My second intention was to look for use of those same words to describe the magic or magical essence of other practitioners. 

There are numerous references to greasy and oily physical presences, which have no bearing on a magic essence.  Vanilla's with greasy hair, greasy Rampires, etc.

But the key references I made were those referring to the subject's magic use.  Specifically, most were when using black magic. 

Elaine
Elaine uses magic several times in SK and again WN.  She traps Harry, she pulls the thornbush apart, she veils herself, she uses her lightning chain, she fires green combat magic, for example.  And in none of those instances did Harry describe her magic as being greasy or oily.  The only time that she apparently used magic with those descriptions was when she cast an illegal mind fog that, per Harry, is bad mojo, if not outright black magic.  That makes me believe that her casting dark magic was tainted by the Infection.  Similar to how hellfire and soulfire both automatically fused with Harry's blasts when he didn't intend it.  It was bleeding through. In the case of Infection, it would, by necessity of the theory, only bleed through when dark magic was used.

Proven Guilty
To your case about PG.  If the greasy affect is a side-affect of some-one wielding dark magic, and Maeve cast the myrk spell, then we should expect it.  But since I'm still not convinced it was Maeve casting the myrk, I'm not convinced that's proof against the theory.  But if it was Maeve, then it would either have to be an exception of the infection not bleeding through, like with Elaine, or it was because the spell wasn't 'dark' enough.  That's a weak defense, and wouldn't buy it myself.  The only way the theory could account for it would be that it wasn't Maeve who cast the myrk, or it was left out of the description by JB.

My belief is that the myrk was cast by TTFH, which would still fit, as long as Harry himself isn't infected.  Which he may be.  We don't know yet.

We can't dismiss it being Mavra, as there are also theories that Sandra was Mavra.  Someone sent Michael's eldest down a path of dark magic; Mavra would have the means, motive, and opportunity to do so.  If Sandra/Mavra cast the myrk, then the theory stands.

Blamp Exceptions

The biggest issue I've found so far with my own hypothesis is that there are two additional descriptions I found of Blamps that fit the Outsider descriptions.  In both cases, it was describing the magical essence of the Blamp, since neither were casting spells. 

BR-pg. 20 (Black Court Vampire)
Quote
     A sort of greasy, nauseating cold flooded over my perceptions, stealing my
breath.

BR-pg. 123 (Black Court Vampire)
Quote
     I managed to get to one knee just as a cold, slithery feeling washed down my spine.

For these, it's reasonable to assume that the words are simply favorite of JB to describe dark magic in general, and have no bearing on Outsider infection.  OR, there's a tie between Blampires and Outsiders.  I find the latter unlikely, since Blamps are tied to Necromancy, which was described in detail in DB, and was lacking from Cowl and Kumori.  Grevane and Corpsetaker both had some key words in their descriptions, but it's far more likely at that point that the words are favorites.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 03:23:10 AM
the source of necromancy has been left unexplored though. it gets its power from being NOT, this could be tied to outsider as hades, the god the afterlife has always been portrayed as strictly against it(he feels it impunes on his kingship of the dead). not that it necessarily equates being directly from outsider. as Evil bob uses the wolfwaffen(these have a specific name in other fantasy genre, esp forgotten realms) and he was a creation of the most powerful known necromancer its likely necromancy has its roots with anubis. which if you know anything of eygpt and its ancient religions makes alot of since. problem is anubis was knocked off his throne at some point and either joined with the fallen like the fomor, was ejected from reality or obliviated. the first choice being the most likely. i know this proves nothing but i wanted to point out the possible anubis connection to necromancy's origins.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: peregrine on February 11, 2013, 04:20:12 AM
Bob was owned by Kemmler, but I don't think Bob was created by Kemmler.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2013, 04:28:44 AM
Bob was owned by Kemmler, but I don't think Bob was created by Kemmler.

Bob was around before Kemmler, but Evil Bob was a personification created by Kemmler.  I'm figuring that's what Nelson meant. 

And my only issue with necromancy being tied to the Outsiders is that it literally means almost everything in the series would then be tied to the Outsiders.  It would make them the Dr. Claw to Harry's Inspector Gadget.  (And yes, that would make Molly into Penny and Mouse into Brain)
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: peregrine on February 11, 2013, 04:34:48 AM
Evil Bob, to my mind, is Kemmler's Bob entirely excised from regular Bob, without any of his less murderous history.  Not something "created" by Kemmler, but the condensed version of regular Bob's interactions with Kemmler.  A radical difference in personality would be explained by the abrupt change in ownership, rather than each new owner making a new shell program.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 04:41:52 AM
thats what i meant about bob yes. its not so much outsiders, umm how to explain? everything has been shown as a balance (even if it isn't actually an equal balance) such as  reality verses outside, heaven vs hell, summer verses winter, 'life' magic vs 'being not'. some things that are clearly a part of reality still holds aspects of the outside chaotic emptiness. doesn't necessarily mean its outsider related. personally i see this as a sort of balance too. indeed if winter hadn't been shown as holder of the gates i'd have said they were antithetical to reality as obviously MW is the supreme unmaker. i think the best way to put it is with a metaphor. wyldfae are clearly of the sidhe but not actually under the courts domain. necromancy is of the outside aspect of emptiness but not actually under outsiders domain?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 04:44:55 AM
Evil Bob, to my mind, is Kemmler's Bob entirely excised from regular Bob, without any of his less murderous history.  Not something "created" by Kemmler, but the condensed version of regular Bob's interactions with Kemmler.  A radical difference in personality would be explained by the abrupt change in ownership, rather than each new owner making a new shell program.
bob clearly states in DB kemmler twisted his purpose and made him into something he was not, made = created or close enough. its clear kemmlers interactions with bob were not limited to what other wizards did with him.

oh god :o did i just say that? everybody run! here comes the kemmler/bob shippers! RUN! run for your sanity. don't forget the brain bleach!

lol
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 11, 2013, 04:51:55 AM
bob clearly states in DB kemmler twisted his purpose and made him into something he was not, made = created or close enough. its clear kemmlers interactions with bob were not limited to what other wizards did with him.

Could that be because Kemmler basically used him as a wrecking ball more than as a research assistant?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 04:57:02 AM
Could that be because Kemmler basically used him as a wrecking ball more than as a research assistant?
wrecking ball how? i was thinking, since bob possesses his own magic that kemmler twisted him into working with the 'true' magic. making him kinda necromantic in nature.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 11, 2013, 04:59:01 AM
wrecking ball how? i was thinking, since bob possesses his own magic that kemmler twisted him into working with the 'true' magic. making him kinda necromantic in nature.

By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Ben de Wal on February 11, 2013, 04:59:36 AM
isn't in dead beat that Kemmler twisted bobs nature?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 11, 2013, 05:05:14 AM
By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.
ah... damn. only ever read SmF, BR and WN (WK?) once as they are not part of my collection. so its been awhile, really need to head to the library and borrow them for a refresher.
maybe bob asked to be sent? as bob now asks for permission to have orgies at frat parties evil bob gets his kicks killing stuff?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2013, 05:18:26 AM
By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.

I think that's a bit of speculation based on her brief comments, no?

Quote
     “Nor would I,” Luccio said. “That could be a true nightmare. All that knowledge, without conscience to direct it. The necromancer Kemmler had such a spirit in his service, a sort of miniature version of the Archive. Nowhere near as powerful, but it had been studying and learning beside wizards for generations, and the things it was capable of were appalling.” She shook her head.
     I took a sip of tea, because otherwise the gulp would have been suspicious. She was talking about Bob. And she was right about what Bob was capable of doing. When I’d unlocked the personality he’d taken on under some of his former owners, he’d nearly killed me.
     “The Wardens destroyed it, of course,” she said.
     No, they hadn’t. Justin DuMorne, former Warden, hadn’t destroyed the skull. He’d smuggled it from Kemmler’s lab and kept it in his own—until I’d burned him to death, and taken it from him in turn. “It was just too much power under too little restraint. And it’s entirely possible that the Archive could become a similar threat on a far larger scale. I know you care about the child, Harry. But you had to be warned. You might not be doing her any favors by acting like her friend.”

Butcher, Jim (2009-03-03). Small Favor: A Novel of the Dresden Files (pp. 408-409). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 11, 2013, 05:19:09 AM
You're one to talk when it comes to wild speculation. :D
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2013, 06:03:09 AM
You're one to talk when it comes to wild speculation. :D

Come now, all of my speculation is well cultured and proper.  It even sets the silverware correctly for dinner.   8)
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wyltok on February 11, 2013, 02:29:47 PM
A random thought about the idea of Elaine being infected. In White Night, after the fight in Thomas' boat where Harry turns the lake's surface to ice and survives being shot at with a machine gun, Thomas, Elaine, the other practitioners, and an unconcious Harry go to ground. Harry spends 8 hours unconscious, most of that time without Thomas around, and awakens to Elaine performing a spell on his head. She claims that it is Reiki, but it would seem to me to be the perfect opportunity for her to infect Harry.

It is worth pointing out as well that it is after this book that Harry's headaches begin.

Of course, on the other hand, even if Harry was knocked out, Lash was not, and I'm fairly certain she would have let Harry know if Elaine did try to infect him in his sleep.

On the gripping hand, Lash mentioned that she recognized Vittorio's possesion by an Outsider because she had felt such a presence before. Maybe she meant in Elaine?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 11, 2013, 03:13:22 PM
Proven Guilty
To your case about PG.  If the greasy affect is a side-affect of some-one wielding dark magic, and Maeve cast the myrk spell, then we should expect it.  But since I'm still not convinced it was Maeve casting the myrk, I'm not convinced that's proof against the theory.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I found another clue that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

In CD we have a description:
Quote
the kind of look that gets girls that age in trouble with men who should be old enough to know better.
Quote
colored in all glacial shades of blue and green and deep violet,

Now let me quote the keyword analysis with earlier material:
Quote
I give you the official descriptions of Maeve:
Quote
The young woman who entered the bar could have been Lily’s sister. She had the same exotic beauty, the same canted, feline eyes, the same pale, flawless skin. But this one’s hair was worn in long, ragged strands of varying lengths, like a Raggedy Ann doll, each one dyed a slightly different color from frozen seas—pale blues and greens, as though each had borrowed its color from a different glacier. Her eyes were a cold, brilliant shade of green, almost entirely darkened by pupils dilated as though with drugs or arousal. A slender silver hoop gleamed at one side of her nose, and a collar of black leather studded with silver snowflakes encircled the graceful line of her slender throat. She wore sandals and cut-off blue jean shorts—very cut-off, and very tight. A tight, white T-shirt strained across her chest, and read, in pale blue letters stretched into intriguing curves, “YOUR BOYFRIEND WANTS ME.”
Quote
She looked young. Young enough to make a man feel guilty for thinking the wrong thoughts, but old enough to make it difficult not to. Her hair had been bound into long dreadlocks, each of them dyed a different shade, ranging from a deep lavender to pale blues and greens to pure white, so that it almost seemed that her hair had been formed from glacial ice. She wore leather pants of dark, dark blue, laced and open up the outside seams from calf to hip. Her boots matched the pants. She wore a white T-shirt tight enough to show the tips of her breasts straining against the fabric, framing the words OFF WITH HIS HEAD. She had hacked the shirt off at the top of her rib cage, leaving pale flesh exposed, along with a glitter of silver flashing at her navel.


So "young enough but old enough" is now used twice to describe her. This keyword is used a third time in the DF:
Quote
Two girls, both too young for me to think adult thoughts about, sidled by in black-and-purple clothing and makeup that left a lot of skin bare, their faces painted pale, trickles of fake blood at the corners of their mouths. One of them smiled at me, and she had fangs.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 11, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
Blamp Exceptions

The biggest issue I've found so far with my own hypothesis is that there are two additional descriptions I found of Blamps that fit the Outsider descriptions.  In both cases, it was describing the magical essence of the Blamp, since neither were casting spells. 

BR-pg. 20 (Black Court Vampire)
BR-pg. 123 (Black Court Vampire)
For these, it's reasonable to assume that the words are simply favorite of JB to describe dark magic in general, and have no bearing on Outsider infection.  OR, there's a tie between Blampires and Outsiders.  I find the latter unlikely, since Blamps are tied to Necromancy, which was described in detail in DB, and was lacking from Cowl and Kumori.  Grevane and Corpsetaker both had some key words in their descriptions, but it's far more likely at that point that the words are favorites.

There are some highly speculative theories that the Blampires are linked to the outside.


MsDuck on the subject: here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452233.html#msg1452233).
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 11, 2013, 03:49:47 PM
is it worth thinking in terms of a control sample of whether Jim uses these words to describe dark magic in general that has no Outsider connection by checking for their frequency associated with hostile magic in the Codex Alera ?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 03:17:40 AM
I don't want to derail the thread, but I found another clue that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

In CD we have a description:
Now let me quote the keyword analysis with earlier material:

So "young enough but old enough" is now used twice to describe her. This keyword is used a third time in the DF:

Actually, Maeve being at Splattercon!!! doesn't completely disrupt the TTH theory, seeing as the theory itself is an attempt at explaining the unexplainable.  My dissatisfaction with the "Maeve was at Splattercon!!!" theory is because now that she's dead, we presumably can never find out what role she played.

I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

The issue with it being Maeve is that we don't have any proof that Maeve was there, other than the lil' vamp.  The issue with the fetch doing it is that none of the other fetches did it.  The issue with Mab doing it is that she was busy in AT.  And the issue with TTH doing it is... because he wasn't there?

There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.
 4) Someone was observed leaving the theatre, and then the myrk and pressure left.  If Mab did it remotely, or the fetch did it itself, that observation wouldn't have been necessary.

What I try to do is explain all facets of that encounter.  Mavra being there does some, but not all.  Same for Maeve.  The door thing is what gets the Maeve argument.  If the fetch did come through the mirror, then it didn't come in through the door.  That means something or someone else ripped the door off it's hinges.  Maeve wouldn't have a reason to do that.  In fact, Maeve would want the door closed, to keep everyone trapped in, thus causing more terror and leaving more victims.

Here's how TTH answers each issue.
 1) The fetch manifested itself in the room, like Harry described.  TTH goes running to the theatre with WK power, and wrenches the door open. 
 2) TTHarry casts the myrk to blind the fetch, and casts the ward to slow the fetch.  It affects the other Harry because its magic-based.  Rawlins didn't seem to be impeded.
 3) TTHarry recognized a method of casting that is similar to his own, but he's not used to feeling it with the dark-magic style of the WK spells.
 4) After PG Harry kills the phage, TTH runs out and drops the castings.

Here's how Maeve answers each issue.
 1) The fetch manifested outside the room, and Harry was wrong about his observation at the end of the book.
 2) Maeve cast the myrk and ward to slow Harry down, thus allowing more people to get attacked.  How this fits with Maeve-did-it motive, I don't know.
 3) Harry recognized the essence of Maeve's magic, maybe because its similar to what he'd sensed of Mab in their encounters.
 4) After Harry kills the phage, Maeve leaves.  But I'm still unclear on her full motivation.

There are some highly speculative theories that the Blampires are linked to the outside.

  • both are linked to unlife
  • the BAT seems to be the ultimate consequence of the fall of the Black Council
  • Typo in White Night? (missing WOJ)

MsDuck on the subject: here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452233.html#msg1452233).

I could see that being the case.  But like I said, if everyone and everything is Outsider-based, then it's pretty confining.  And it works against Ms Duck's theory that the Black Council was Maggie's anti-Blamp task force who used Outsiders against the Blamps.  That'd be fighting fire with fire, rather than being productive.

is it worth thinking in terms of a control sample of whether Jim uses these words to describe dark magic in general that has no Outsider connection by checking for their frequency associated with hostile magic in the Codex Alera ?

I'm not sure.  I search using the ebook copies of TDF.  I don't have ebook copies of the Alera series.  I guess the thing to look for there is references to people who have been infected/turned by the Vord.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 12, 2013, 12:37:32 PM
I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

I would add Sandra to the list. And we have no proof that the myrk in SmF was cast by the Hobbs.

Quote
There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.

1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die:
Quote from: PG
“A summoner,” I said. “Given that someone actually threw a ward in my way the last time the phage showed up, that seems to be the most likely of the three.

2) That's really problematic. Two possibilities: Mab was the one doing the job in SmF, hence the superior power. Or maybe the hobbs create their own myrk. There were hundreds of them, so their combined power would be significant.
3)Harry saw Maeve using her power in SK. And it leaked too.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 12, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die: 

Quote from: Changes Chapter 30
"Yes," mused Mab's voice. "You will, won't you? And yes, you know that I do not kill indiscriminately, nor encourage my Knight to do so."

Here you go.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 12:52:12 PM
I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

The issue with it being Maeve is that we don't have any proof that Maeve was there, other than the lil' vamp.  The issue with the fetch doing it is that none of the other fetches did it.  The issue with Mab doing it is that she was busy in AT.  And the issue with TTH doing it is... because he wasn't there?

There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.
 4) Someone was observed leaving the theatre, and then the myrk and pressure left.  If Mab did it remotely, or the fetch did it itself, that observation wouldn't have been necessary.

I propose an option #5. Molly did it.

The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).

We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.

Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 03:39:30 PM
I would add Sandra to the list. And we have no proof that the myrk in SmF was cast by the Hobbs.

1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die: 
2) That's really problematic. Two possibilities: Mab was the one doing the job in SmF, hence the superior power. Or maybe the hobbs create their own myrk. There were hundreds of them, so their combined power would be significant.
3)Harry saw Maeve using her power in SK. And it leaked too.

I usually think if Sandra as Mavra.  So I didn't list her separately.  But she'd be a good inclusion.
1) Maeve doesn't seem to hold much stock in human life.  Why would she care about convention goers?  And why would she be working with Mab on the situation?  We're fairly confident that Maeve was Infected at that point.  If anything, she'd be doing Mab's bidding, but stretching the limits.  And I still don't know why she had to be pretending there was a summoner bringing the fetches.  Molly was technically summoning them, which is why they went to her when Harry flipped it.  She wasn't conscious of it, since it seemed to be a by-product.
2) Harry speculates in-book that the hobbs were pulling their own myrk across from the NN.  He seemed to imply that was a normal tactic for them, and since they're basically allergic to light, I'd agree.  No point in them ever crossing over if someone else always has to help by casting a myrk for them.  But the fetches don't have the necessity, so it seems less likely they would be able to do it themselves.
3) That he did.  I forgot about the magic used against Slate in their first encounter, and again briefly at the battle.

I propose an option #5. Molly did it.

The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).

We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.

Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.

So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?

Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly.  It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply.  All that terror and death would have torn her up.

Myrk, darkness, and cold are all part of Winter.  It makes sense either for Mab, Maeve, TTWKH, or the fetches to use it.  I imagine Sandra or Mavra would have their own spells to cast that would be similar but different.  And Molly would make the light disappear in Harry's head as an illusion, not cast a physical myrk that could be cut back with the light of his staff and pendant.  That's not her style. 
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 04:15:18 PM
So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?

Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly.  It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply.  All that terror and death would have torn her up.

...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 04:39:25 PM
...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.

I don't see where casting a myrk, which is a physical manifestation, and casting an illusion, which is a mental or light manipulation, are teh same thing.  I don't see where an amateur spellcaster with no experience or training can cast a physical myrk and a physical ward, especially when their natural talent lies in non-physical magic.

In addition, I've always thought that Molly was busy casting at the time of the attacks.  Molly was trying to scare Nelson and Rosie.  At the first attack, in the bathroom, we don't know where Molly was.  But the second attack, which was the Rosie attack, Molly took off, saying there were things she needed to do.  For the third spell, when Harry reversed it back on the caster, there was a delay.  He thought it would be sooner, but it took a while.  That was because Molly was in the car with Charity and Forthill, driving home.  As soon as he got home, the third attack commenced.

I think Molly was casting a spell that focused on her friends, trying to keep up the induced fear in them, so that they wouldn't abuse.  The fetches came across from the NN in those places (Nelson in the bathroom; Rosie in the theatre) because they were drawn to the fear spell.  For the third attack, they remained at the convention because of the build-up of fear there due to the other attacks and the movies being shown. 

If someone else had been casting to bring the fetches across, or even send them, then Harry's spell would have sent the fetches at them, not at Molly.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 12, 2013, 04:45:59 PM
  And I still don't know why she had to be pretending there was a summoner bringing the fetches.

That was in Mab's plan. She had to convince Harry to use a redirection spell to bring Molly. And at that point Mab didn't know that Maeve was infected.

See here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.30.html) my thoughts on PG.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 12, 2013, 04:47:27 PM
myrk is an aspect of hobs. if it didn't show up directly as a result of their presence then someone with similar aspects of magic summoned it for them. molly didn't create it. how would helping the hobs save anybody? myrk is something to do with hobs in myths too, its associated with them from before the dresden files were a twinkle in jims eye.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 05:00:51 PM
That was in Mab's plan. She had to convince Harry to use a redirection spell to bring Molly. And at that point Mab didn't know that Maeve was infected.

See here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.30.html) my thoughts on PG.

Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

This is why I hated PG the first time around, and it's always been my least-favorite book.  My hopes of TTH are that everything that wasn't answered in PG would eventually be answered. 

And we don't know that Mab didn't know.  We only know that Mab knows when she doesn't talk; and she didn't talk in PG.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wyltok on February 12, 2013, 05:02:47 PM
I don't see where casting a myrk, which is a physical manifestation, and casting an illusion, which is a mental or light manipulation, are teh same thing.

Pretty sure those are the same thing. Besides, like I previously mentioned, Molly's done the murk (not myrk) again after this book. Namely, she did it on Luccio in Turn Coat.

I don't see where an amateur spellcaster with no experience or training can cast a physical myrk and a physical ward, especially when their natural talent lies in non-physical magic.

The ward wasn't physical. It was mental (like the mind fog), urging people to not get any closer. Somewhat like the compulsion / binding Maeve laid on Slate back in Summer Knight, actually (which is why she's usually proposed as the person behind it, though like I said, it certainly fits Molly the mind-magic warlock's MO just as well, if not better).

In addition, I've always thought that Molly was busy casting at the time of the attacks.  Molly was trying to scare Nelson and Rosie.  At the first attack, in the bathroom, we don't know where Molly was.  But the second attack, which was the Rosie attack, Molly took off, saying there were things she needed to do.  For the third spell, when Harry reversed it back on the caster, there was a delay.  He thought it would be sooner, but it took a while.  That was because Molly was in the car with Charity and Forthill, driving home.  As soon as he got home, the third attack commenced.

I think Molly was casting a spell that focused on her friends, trying to keep up the induced fear in them, so that they wouldn't abuse.  The fetches came across from the NN in those places (Nelson in the bathroom; Rosie in the theatre) because they were drawn to the fear spell.  For the third attack, they remained at the convention because of the build-up of fear there due to the other attacks and the movies being shown. 

If someone else had been casting to bring the fetches across, or even send them, then Harry's spell would have sent the fetches at them, not at Molly.

So your theory is that the fetches have terrible aim (always attacking people other than the one who attracted them first) and then stop acting in the pattern they were following for no discernible reason? That just... sounds a bit too far-fetched to me?
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Elegast on February 12, 2013, 05:14:25 PM
Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

No.

The mechanism of the spell is explained:
Quote from: PG
“Their summoner is going to draw them in,” I finished, following the line of reasoning. “It’s like… I could blanket the surrounding area in fog, but if they have someone on this end, the phages will have a beacon they can use to home in on the hotel.”
Quote from: PG
“Sure,” Bob said. “I mean, you have everything you need for that. You know the phages are after fear, and that they’re probably using his power as a beacon. Your web tells you something is stirring. You conjure up a big ball of fear, target the same beacon the phages are using, and let it fly.”

Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 05:26:30 PM
myrk is an aspect of hobs. if it didn't show up directly as a result of their presence then someone with similar aspects of magic summoned it for them. molly didn't create it. how would helping the hobs save anybody? myrk is something to do with hobs in myths too, its associated with them from before the dresden files were a twinkle in jims eye.

I think you got jumbled.  In SmF, the hobbs bring myrk with them to the train station so that the light is blotted out, because they're allergic to light.  In PG, someone casts myrk to cause confusion and fear, increasing the emotions that the fetch feeds on.  The question is who cast the myrk at the convention, and why. 

Pretty sure those are the same thing. Besides, like I previously mentioned, Molly's done the murk (not myrk) again after this book. Namely, she did it on Luccio in Turn Coat.

The ward wasn't physical. It was mental (like the mind fog), urging people to not get any closer. Somewhat like the compulsion / binding Maeve laid on Slate back in Summer Knight, actually (which is why she's usually proposed as the person behind it, though like I said, it certainly fits Molly the mind-magic warlock's MO just as well, if not better).

So your theory is that the fetches have terrible aim (always attacking people other than the one who attracted them first) and then stop acting in the pattern they were following for no discernible reason? That just... sounds a bit too far-fetched to me?

1)  The thing she did to Luccio was mental magic; she didn't shroud Luccio's head in darkness.  It was an illusion.  The myrk isn't an illusion.  It's a physical manifestation.  Harry says in SmF that “It’s matter from the Nevernever. Think of it as a cellophane filter, only instead of being around a light, it is spread all through the air. That’s why we couldn’t see the light from my amulet, and why the muzzle flash of my gun was so muted."  Molly has never cast a physical matter like myrk on a wide-area.  When she manipulates light and sound, she's doing so in a small, regionalized area.  The only time she casts a wide-area illusion is in CD, where she gets sapped by casting the mist over water.  If she knew how to cast a myrk, she could have done so.
2)  The ward sounded pretty physical to me.  As physical as any manifestation of magic.  The gloom began to press in closer to me, and it became an effort of will to hold up the light in my amulet against it. A few steps more and the air grew even colder. Walking forward became an effort, like wading through waist-deep water. I had to lean against it, and I heard a grunt of effort come out of my mouth.  As you said, it's similar to the casting Maeve threw at Slate in SK.  But in that instance, Harry saw the casting, which was visible as blue motes floating through the air.  It also had an anchor on Slate, as it was working through the tattoo.  It was manipulation of the tattoo, and their link, that allowed her to slow Slate down.  She couldn't do the same against Harry in PG, because he wasn't the WK, and he didn't have a tattoo.
3)  The fetches come across at the focus of the fear spell.  Once there, they feed off of fear.  When the first fetch came through the mirror, Pell saw him, and his fear spiked.  The fetch then attacked Pell.  In the second attack, the anchor was Rosie.  Once there, it fed off the fear of everyone present, and simply attacked.  Molly was targeting Nelson and Rosie with her fear spell, which is what the fetches followed.  When Harry reverse the spell on Molly, he sent the fear spell back at her, which the fetches then followed to her house.  I don't see how that's against their nature at all.  When did they stop acting in the pattern?

No.

The mechanism of the spell is explained:
Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.

That doesn't work because the phages were still focused on the convention center in the last attack.  If Mab was sending the fetches from the NN and using Molly as a beacon, then they would appear near Molly.  But they never did.  The last fetch even showed up at the convention, despite Molly being at home.  Harry speculates in the book that maybe the numbers were increasing because of the growing fear at the convention.  So that explains why one might have been there; it wasn't sent, it just came because of the fear.

But Molly was never present when the fetches appeared, and the victims of her black magic were.  If Molly were the beacon, they would have come to her. 
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 12, 2013, 06:13:55 PM
Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

Nobody summoned the fetches, as I understand it; when Harry realises the phages are fetches, he realises they have to have been sent rather than summoned.

His spell appears to find Molly because she's the closest fit to being a mortal cause of them being there, because they originally targeted her black magic, rather than because of her summoning them in any way; his spell is looking for a summoner rather than a sender and it finds the somewhat awkward best fit. (Molly did nothing to choose them being there, but they are still focused on her as a result of her actions.  This seems to me to follow the same pattern as what happens to Molly at the end of CD, in terms of Faerie power's interaction with choice and consequence.)
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 12, 2013, 06:15:07 PM
No.
The mechanism of the spell is explained:
Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.

That explanation is before Harry realises they are fetches and therefore have been sent; it's wrong because it's based on wrong assumptions.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 02:54:06 AM
Quote
I think you got jumbled.  In SmF, the hobbs bring myrk with them to the train station so that the light is blotted out, because they're allergic to light.  In PG, someone casts myrk to cause confusion and fear, increasing the emotions that the fetch feeds on.  The question is who cast the myrk at the convention, and why.
ahhh yea i saw myrk and hobs in the same post and assumed it was SmF they were talking about. myrk IS associated with hobs in myths. alternative idea. harry mentions its a familiar working but he can't recall were from yes? this wording is associated with elaine alot iirc. elaine has already shown an aptitude for this kinda working with the mind mist in SK. i'd just as easily attribute it to her.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2013, 03:40:41 AM
ahhh yea i saw myrk and hobs in the same post and assumed it was SmF they were talking about. myrk IS associated with hobs in myths. alternative idea. harry mentions its a familiar working but he can't recall were from yes? this wording is associated with elaine alot iirc. elaine has already shown an aptitude for this kinda working with the mind mist in SK. i'd just as easily attribute it to her.

The problem is, Harry uses the word familiar to describe almost every working.  That's why in my original key words list for Outsiders, it had to be in tandem with one of the other key words.

Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 04:00:31 AM
familiar outsider workings? i'm not so sure. usually its mortal workings, that are alot of times associated with elaine. he does begin to recognise the feel of outsiders but myrk isn't outsider even the PG one isn't described nearly close enough. cold puts it with winter though really. was not the SmF myrk spell described as cold too? if myrk was outsider related then so are the hobs. they are not. iirc harry says were they come from specifically (winter agents iirc?) accaims razor in light of CD. it was probably maeve. this is why mab changes voice between PG (starts using proxy) and SmF. maeve was meddling in ways mab hadn't ordered or specifically didn't want. its how she figured out maeve was taken.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on February 13, 2013, 04:06:31 AM
 WE know magics create attraction or repelent ness to it. WHat if black magic draws ousiderness to a person, which warps them due to it other worldlyness? This magic makes wounds in the world, and outsiders are the infections that grow in them
 Nemesis is described in a similar manner to black magic corruption.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 04:17:33 AM
WE know magics create attraction or repelent ness to it. WHat if black magic draws ousiderness to a person, which warps them due to it other worldlyness? This magic makes wounds in the world, and outsiders are the infections that grow in them
 Nemesis is described in a similar manner to black magic corruption.
i had a similar idea. don't think nemesis is directly related to black magic but taking outside into yourself would certainly twist your nature. magic, the force created by humans seems to be what the weave of reality and NN is made of. the NN is the accumulation of human believe from the beginning of time. i was waiting til i could explain it best after some research and brainstorming but *shrug* other people keep bringing it up.
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2013, 02:11:49 PM
Nobody summoned the fetches, as I understand it; when Harry realises the phages are fetches, he realises they have to have been sent rather than summoned.

His spell appears to find Molly because she's the closest fit to being a mortal cause of them being there, because they originally targeted her black magic, rather than because of her summoning them in any way; his spell is looking for a summoner rather than a sender and it finds the somewhat awkward best fit. (Molly did nothing to choose them being there, but they are still focused on her as a result of her actions.  This seems to me to follow the same pattern as what happens to Molly at the end of CD, in terms of Faerie power's interaction with choice and consequence.)

My issue is still with why the fetches went after Molly with his casting, but not before.  If she were the beacon, they would have been coming to her to begin with. 

Now, if she were an anchor, I could understand it.  But there are too many coincidences with her not being there during the attack.

 - Molly admits that Sandra told her about fear being a motivator to breaking addiction.
 - Molly asks Sandra if Rosie took her pills; Sandra ensures her she has; what pills?
 - Molly admits that she sent Nelson and Rosie nightmares to cause fear in them.
 - Pell is attacked in the bathroom, which Nelson is also in.
 - Molly is not with him at the time.
 - A short time later, Mouse detects black magic on Molly.
 Sp: Molly could have cast a fresh 'nightmare' spell on Nelson, which she didn't realize was summoning the fetch.
 - Molly leaves Harry while he's investigating the scene of the crime.
 - Another fetch materializes around the other friend she's sending nightmares too.
 Sp:  Molly once again left to cast the spell, which once again summoned a fetch to her friend.
 - Harry sets up the reroute spell to cast back at the summoner. 
 - We've seen his spells fail before because they weren't correct (GP)
 - He notes that its taking longer than he expected for the summoner to act again.
 - The last attack doesn't commence until after Molly gets home.
 Sp:  She cast another spell once she was home, still not realizing she was causing the trouble.
 - Harry's spell directs the fetches back at her.
 Sp:  Someone intercedes with the fetches, having them bring Molly back to AT rather than simply kill her.

The argument that someone was sending the fetches rather than summoning them is never confirmed.  Harry speculates it, but that's before he knows about what's going on at AT.  And he says that fetches are grown-up, powerful phages.  They could most likely still be summoned. 
Title: Re: [All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite
Post by: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 06:40:11 PM
Quote
Now, if she were an anchor, I could understand it.  But there are too many coincidences with her not being there during the attack.
so replace beacon as poor choice in words with anchor. viola? simply a misunderstanding from harry trying to explain it.