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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: twobee on June 10, 2018, 09:36:20 PM
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At the Barnes & Noble in McLean, VA, the best answer of the day was to the question "Could the Winter Queens give Harry conflicting orders?" Jim's response? "Well they can now! That sounds awesome!" So now we have that to look forward to. What contradictory orders do you think Dresden will be getting, how will he resolve it, and how many buildings will be destroyed in the process?
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Whatever they are, they'd have to both be beneficial to Winter. I think the only reason Maeve was able to suggest going against Mab in CD was because of her infection. If the Queens are all tied to Winter's purpose, then they can't conflict in that aspect.
In other Sidhe news, there was confirmation that Maeve did sexual things, but never had intercourse, and Lily and Fix weren't together sexually either. The maidens might have some loopholes in their activity, but loosing their maiden-status wasn't one of them.
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That's cool and all, but I really wish someone had got a question in about how in the hell Vlad Tepes went from black court king to Mab's lawn ornament.
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That's cool and all, but I really wish someone had got a question in about how in the hell Vlad Tepes went from black court king to Mab's lawn ornament.
I thought about it, but it felt too much like a gotcha question at the moment. He also contradicted a previous comment on the death curse being satisfied by his death, this time saying it wasn't because Harry didn't really die.
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I thought about it, but it felt too much like a gotcha question at the moment. He also contradicted a previous comment on the death curse being satisfied by his death, this time saying it wasn't because Harry didn't really die.
To be fair the official woj I've read on that was 'sorta, maybe and we'll see'.
Personally... I think he had a really good tie in to why Vlad was there but it changed slightly from 'because of Mab' to the more ephemeral 'custodian' answer.... Short answer is he found a place to add another layer at some point. The BC was pissing everyone off with their sudden growth in power though, personally I think he ended up there for much the same reason Leah was, except he's not going to be cured BUT... we know the people in the ice are not frozen inside, else she could never have worked on Leah's mind/spirit while she was frozen. So Vlad saw Harry Dresden :o
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I thought about it, but it felt too much like a gotcha question at the moment. He also contradicted a previous comment on the death curse being satisfied by his death, this time saying it wasn't because Harry didn't really die.
He was very certain and specific this time. It was a definite no, it did not effect the death curse.
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He was very certain and specific this time. It was a definite no, it did not effect the death curse.
Exactly. This time was definitive, but previously he leaned (as far as I can recall) toward it having satisfied the curse. Now it hasn't.
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I was there too (was the one to ask the first questions) and I disagree with this- the best answer was the one he gave to the sassy girl who asked why his female characters weren't more diverse. You could feel the scorn he put into his explanation, the split second he glared back at her. It was magical.
That aside, it probably won't involve killing a dude. We've already had the drama from that. Unless it's "destroy this person/place/thing", "save this person/place/thing", and "stay away from this person/place/thing". There really isn't all that much more that the Knight is necessary for, at least not that I can think of. His whole purpose is to kill. And even if he did get conflicting orders, would the fact that he's Mab's chosen Knight mean he's more bound to her word than Molly's or Mother's?
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There really isn't all that much more that the Knight is necessary for, at least not that I can think of. His whole purpose is to kill.
I have to think this is too simplistic a description. His whole purpose is to Utilize his Mortal Free Will to do things for the Queens that they cannot do for themselves. The fact that Winter traditionally interprets that to mean "Kill the Unaffiliated for Me", there are a bunch of other uses that could come up. And in the case of the Mother, I have to think she's got more important things to worry about than the killing of any One being (that Harry could actually take).
And even if he did get conflicting orders, would the fact that he's Mab's chosen Knight mean he's more bound to her word than Molly's or Mother's?
Based on how Bob originally described it in SK, the Knight has specific Duties to all three. I dont think his actual duties change even his "handler" does. As far as how Conflicting Orders could happen: Easiest Explanation is that Molly makes some direct Statement, and as Winter nobility her Words become binding to the Court itself, and do so /before/ Mab issues any conflicting Orders. I dont think Molly could actually issue Orders Counter to Winter Law, which itself seems to be defined by Mab's Words/Authority (as the Queen who Is), but I think she could issue Orders or Promises with less Forsight than Mab, and by doing she could put Mab in a Corner. It would be a legalese Knot, like the Doughnut episode with Gruff or how Harry was able to Threaten Mab at the end of SG by threatening to besmirch the Honor of Winter.
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the best answer was the one he gave to the sassy girl who asked why his female characters weren't more diverse. You could feel the scorn he put into his explanation, the split second he glared back at her. It was magical.
Can you recall his answer? I love when authors remind readers that they aren't obligated to write characters from every conceivable background (and why it's often a bad idea for them to even try).
As for the OP question: what if Mother Winter demands Harry return her staff, while Mab doesn't want to start a big conflict with the White Council?
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Can you recall his answer? I love when authors remind readers that they aren't obligated to write characters from every conceivable background (and why it's often a bad idea for them to even try).
He didn't come across as scornful to me, nor did he seem to be glaring. I thought it was pretty polite rebuff to the question. But everyone interpets things differently.
Garrett filmed the session, so it should be posted soon.
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I have to think this is too simplistic a description. His whole purpose is to Utilize his Mortal Free Will to do things for the Queens that they cannot do for themselves. The fact that Winter traditionally interprets that to mean "Kill the Unaffiliated for Me", there are a bunch of other uses that could come up. And in the case of the Mother, I have to think she's got more important things to worry about than the killing of any One being (that Harry could actually take).
His technical purpose is being able to violate free will as a mortal himself(also maybe creating insulation from Mab being mortal) They use him to do anything they see needed they cannot directly do themselves. I'm sure there's even more to it, But what they've used him for is to effect their Will on reality by proxy of a Willful Cat's paw.
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His technical purpose is being able to violate free will as a mortal himself(also maybe creating insulation from Mab being mortal) They use him to do anything they see needed they cannot directly do themselves. I'm sure there's even more to it, But what they've used him for is to effect their Will on reality by proxy of a Willful Cat's paw.
Precisely.
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He didn't come across as scornful to me, nor did he seem to be glaring. I thought it was pretty polite rebuff to the question. But everyone interpets things differently.
Garrett filmed the session, so it should be posted soon.
It's entirely possible I was reading too much into it, granted. And perhaps scorn isn't the right word; maybe defiance? He was very measured and polite on the surface, but to me this seemed like a very pointed question (to my ears, the lady might as well have thrown the glove down) and Jim responded with just as much, but much more effectively veiled sass. "I don't try to inject my politics into my writing, and I don't like it when people do that". That's how I remember his words (paraphrased, of course), and at some point I could swear I saw him squinting back at her with something like annoyance. That final look he gave the crowd when he was done, that shrugging "so yeah, wadda ya gonna do" face really sealed it for me.
Again, I might be projecting; I hate it when people inject politics and social commentary into stories for its own sake, especially when it detracts from the narrative. Hearing Jim say what he did tickled me to no end. If I catch the video and it turns out not to have gone down how I remember it, I'll be sure to amend my statement.
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That sounds about as right an answer as you can give to a question like that.
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It's entirely possible I was reading too much into it, granted. And perhaps scorn isn't the right word; maybe defiance? He was very measured and polite on the surface, but to me this seemed like a very pointed question (to my ears, the lady might as well have thrown the glove down) and Jim responded with just as much, but much more effectively veiled sass. "I don't try to inject my politics into my writing, and I don't like it when people do that". That's how I remember his words (paraphrased, of course), and at some point I could swear I saw him squinting back at her with something like annoyance. That final look he gave the crowd when he was done, that shrugging "so yeah, wadda ya gonna do" face really sealed it for me.
Again, I might be projecting; I hate it when people inject politics and social commentary into stories for its own sake, especially when it detracts from the narrative. Hearing Jim say what he did tickled me to no end. If I catch the video and it turns out not to have gone down how I remember it, I'll be sure to amend my statement.
I'd agree that he was gently insisting that he'll continue to build his world in the way he always has, and wants to, rather than twisting its entertainment purpose into a political agenda. I just didn't pick up on any vehemence for her or her idea.
I guess if I had to describe it , it was more like Michael sitting back and calming stating that others could do as they like, but he was going to do what he felt was right.
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He didn't come across as scornful to me, nor did he seem to be glaring. I thought it was pretty polite rebuff to the question. But everyone interpets things differently.
Garrett filmed the session, so it should be posted soon.
It's on youtube. I searched "Jim Butcher Maclean" and there is another one recent one from Texas. Buutcher said something that he writes to entertain and not to preach. Thinking of a character in relation to diversity is not something he seems to consider. The questioner DID seem to have a little disdain for how some of the female characters are visualized.
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I'd agree that he was gently insisting that he'll continue to build his world in the way he always has, and wants to, rather than twisting its entertainment purpose into a political agenda. I just didn't pick up on any vehemence for her or her idea.
I guess if I had to describe it , it was more like Michael sitting back and calming stating that others could do as they like, but he was going to do what he felt was right.
So I saw a video of the Q&A; it was with an extremely old camera, blurry beyond belief, so I can't really tell if his expression is accurate to what I remember. If the glare is there, I think it's when he says "I'm planning on writing the story I want to write, and the story that appeals to me and the story that I think will sell well." I still feel like I can hear a hint of "shove off" in his final statement of "You should never preach harder than you can entertain, and uh... I don't like preaching."
So yeah, definitely not scorn- but I still feel like he was putting out "bite me" vibes. Less passive to my mind than Michael, but not so confrontational as I originally remember.
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It's on youtube. I searched "Jim Butcher Maclean" and there is another one recent one from Texas. Buutcher said something that he writes to entertain and not to preach. Thinking of a character in relation to diversity is not something he seems to consider. The questioner DID seem to have a little disdain for how some of the female characters are visualized.
There was likely some passion in her voice on the subject. She herself wasn't what you'd call the "Dresdenverse Standard" of tall willowy blonde. She was likely speaking from a personal interest in seeing others like herself portrayed (honestly, she was very close to what I've always pictured Charity as, only younger) which is a common subject these days. Representation is incredible for those that don't normally have it.
But I think both sides were respectful. She seemed disappointed in his response, but that's her right, as is his desire to tell his story as he sees it.
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I was really irritated reading this thread and felt very sorry for the girl. Griff, I love you :)
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I was really irritated reading this thread and felt very sorry for the girl. Griff, I love you :)
The question felt too charged to me to earn anything but a charged response. Again, I might be projecting; maybe Jim really was being genuinely polite, with no sass returned, and I was just personally annoyed with the question and read too much into it. I've heard and read too many criticisms of Jim's stuff because of his portrayal of women to do anything but cringe slightly when she started asking. Either way, it's difficult for me to feel much pity for her. That's the kind of question you can't really ask an entertainer without expecting someone to disagree with you.
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Well, I think it's a valid question. Of course Jin is free to write whatever he wants, but the question is valid.
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Well, I think it's a valid question. Of course Jin is free to write whatever he wants, but the question is valid.
Fair enough. It's possible that she wasn't aware of the previous criticisms. I still feel like her tone of voice indicated a level of accusation, but that could just be my interpretation. Actually, has Jim ever touched on the subject before? I can't seem to recall him mentioning it in any Q&As I've seen, or in any AMAs or posts in general.
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I know he has discussed diversity issues before (a criticism I found unfair). I don't remember anything specifically about women.
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I know he has discussed diversity issues before (a criticism I found unfair). I don't remember anything specifically about women.
You wouldn't happen to know where those are, would you? I'd like to be able to listen to/read them, to get a better idea of his stance and whether I interpreted too much from the signing. It's a problem I've had in the past, and refining my interpretations of conversational undertones is an ongoing process for me.
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I am sorry, not idea :'(. I don't really watch the videos because I don't understand them (English is not my language, and I can read pretty well but I struggle with listening). I read some transcriptions but I seldom pay attention to when or where they happened.
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I am sorry, not idea :'(. I don't really watch the videos because I don't understand them (English is not my language, and I can read pretty well but I struggle with listening). I read some transcriptions but I seldom pay attention to when or where they happened.
Gotcha. I'm like that with french; I grew up in french immersion, spoke and understood it perfectly, and then 16 years passed after elementary school and I can maybe read chunks of it now. On a good day. Still can't type it, though.
His technical purpose is being able to violate free will as a mortal himself(also maybe creating insulation from Mab being mortal) They use him to do anything they see needed they cannot directly do themselves. I'm sure there's even more to it, But what they've used him for is to effect their Will on reality by proxy of a Willful Cat's paw.
I also missed this. Possibly true, but even Fix said the Winter Knight's job is to kill for Mab, and I would think that he's pretty clued in. Maybe he's biased, sure, but I doubt he'd lie to Harry about something so important unless he was forced to. And yeah, obviously the Knight's job covers more than just killing- being loaned out as muscle, for example. But I can't help but feel it's the most important or prominent role he plays in Winter.
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For the record, I didn't know it was about body types; my point about introducing diversity into a story for diversity's sake alone usually being a bad idea related to many writers trying to do it (with good intentions) and winding up writing offensive stereotypes.
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Possibly true, but even Fix said the Winter Knight's job is to kill for Mab, and I would think that he's pretty clued in. Maybe he's biased, sure, but I doubt he'd lie to Harry about something so important unless he was forced to. And yeah, obviously the Knight's job covers more than just killing- being loaned out as muscle, for example. But I can't help but feel it's the most important or prominent role he plays in Winter.
Fix's understanding possibly comes from a more recent interpretation of the WK's actions and his own dislike of the previous Knight. That knight seemed to be more directly answerable to Maeve and perhaps limited by her vision/wants/goals. Harry on the other hand is more directly tied to Mab and should have a purpose that reflects her greater understanding and plans (IMO).
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Also Ive seen nothing to indicate that Fix OR Lily got much in the way of open access to Summer's information, any more than Harry has. He's still just a paper cup to the court, and he has officially outlived the Lady that he was hired by. I strongly suspect they were both being neglected by the wider court in step with Titania, so I doubt they've been schooled to heavily in the subtle shadings of the courts (Unless Eldest Gruff made the effort).
Beyond that, we dont know how long it has been since they've had a Knight that was actually Good at much besides Killing. And more than 100 years ago, there's not really much else you'd expect from somebody with the title of Knight. The ones we know of have mostly been of the murderous sort, but then for all we know Maeve has been in charge of the hiring for all that time.
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There was likely some passion in her voice on the subject. She herself wasn't what you'd call the "Dresdenverse Standard" of tall willowy blonde. She was likely speaking from a personal interest in seeing others like herself portrayed (honestly, she was very close to what I've always pictured Charity as, only younger) which is a common subject these days. Representation is incredible for those that don't normally have it.
But I think both sides were respectful. She seemed disappointed in his response, but that's her right, as is his desire to tell his story as he sees it.
To quote Nora Roberts "I like all my characters to be beautiful". I don't see anything wrong with Jim having beautiful women around Harry.
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I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.
As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.
But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin. I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?
Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time.
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You d be surprised at this so-called diversity push that actually is about exclusion. I saw on a FB thread about Dresden Files where several were arguing that the character was whatever color/race/gender that they the reader wanted it to be, and the author's descriptions didnt matter. in the particular case they said that they didnt want Murphy to be white, blond and short because thats not the head cannon they wanted.
:(
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Remember Lash changing her hair and saying "There are too many blondes in your life, my host". Jim is aware of that.
I think all of you are reading too much into it. To me a story is just a story, I read it for fun and nothing more.
Besides, you don't ask a question like that and expect an answer that you will like. Maybe she has a point, but still, some questions are best left alone, at least in public.
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You d be surprised at this so-called diversity push that actually is about exclusion. I saw on a FB thread about Dresden Files where several were arguing that the character was whatever color/race/gender that they the reader wanted it to be, and the author's descriptions didnt matter. in the particular case they said that they didnt want Murphy to be white, blond and short because thats not the head cannon they wanted.
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I don't see a problem with that. Especially for a series about a white guy that the author once said could be played by Will Smith. Head canon for Murphy could be that she's not naturally blonde, or she's biracial, or she's got ties to Solomon Island as much as Ireland, or really whatever else they want.
Heck hounds, I used to picture Thomas as a blonde and Kincaid as a brunette. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Your headcanon can be whatever you like, but you have to be aware that is not what the author wrote and accept it.
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Let's say someone reads Storm Front, and reads the description of Murphy.
Karrin and I are a study in contrasts. Where I am tall and lean, she’s short and stocky. Where I have dark hair and dark eyes, she’s got Shirley Temple blond locks and baby blues. Where my features are all lean and angular, with a hawkish nose and a sharp chin, hers are round and smooth, with the kind of cute nose you’d expect on a cheerleader.
For the rest of the book, there's no reference (that I can find) to Murphy being white or Irish. She goes a little pale when she faints, but there aren't any other references to her skin tone.
So is the reader wrong, at end of Storm Front, to picture Murphy like this?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/2b/e8/b72be89f482059c8b989a8d38c3e3cc5.jpg)
They could have just seen a photo of Jasmine Sanders, and from there on, that's their mental image for Murphy.
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There was likely some passion in her voice on the subject. She herself wasn't what you'd call the "Dresdenverse Standard" of tall willowy blonde. She was likely speaking from a personal interest in seeing others like herself portrayed (honestly, she was very close to what I've always pictured Charity as, only younger) which is a common subject these days. Representation is incredible for those that don't normally have it.
But I think both sides were respectful. She seemed disappointed in his response, but that's her right, as is his desire to tell his story as he sees it.
Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL
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I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.
As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.
But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin. I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?
Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time.
Apologies, Dina, but nothing I said was meant to laugh at her. I felt that her question was part curiousity and part accusation. I have read many social media comments that state that Dresden is sexist, hence Butcher must be sexist.I chose to see Dresden's appreciation of a female's appearance to be directly linked to his personal loneliness and desire for companionship.
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I see so much trouble with that quote that it's almost sickening.
As I said, I think that JB does quite well in diversity. For instance, his Knights include a black Russian, a Christian Japanese, a Jewish and your classic catholic white man. He also has Susan Rodriguez, Carlos Ramirez, Martha Liberty, Ancient Mai, Listens-to-the-Wind and, of course, Rashid. The bad guys have the Ortegas and Kumori, I suppose.
But most of the women are beautiful, sexy and slim. Also tall, except for Karrin. I've argued before that Harry, as a non-reliable narrator, can be seeing women as more beautiful than they are (specially when he is younger or has not been laid in a while). But perhaps some "normal woman" would be a good addition?
Since Susan is dead and the others are secondary characters, the main women are currently a bunch of white beauties. So I don't think it's bad to ask a question about that. It doesn't mean forcing Jim to do anything. Heck, for all we know, perhaps he was secretly laughing to himself because Peace Talks includes a fat Asian woman as a main character. But seeing reading a bunch of males in this thread laughing at a girl who cannot defend herself because of a reasonable question that may be important for her was sad for me. I also admit I have triggers, as male privilege is really bad here and causes many deaths everyday, so we are staying alert, trying to change our minds, to make people realize of things and prejudices that make us think that things have to be in a way and cannot be different. This moves quickly, and our expectations change all the time.
To clarify: I'm not laughing at her precisely because of the question. For me, the problem with the question was her tone of voice- she asked it in what I can only think of as an accusing, confrontational tone. I can't pretend to be anything but amused when Jim responded the way he did. The question itself is not necessarily a bad one (though it does often irritate me, considering my personal experiences).
Also, fat asian woman? I can see Lydia Stern, the Midwest Arcane reporter described as "pleasantly plump, and of asian ancestry" showing up and snooping around the peace summit. Considering how magically violent this one is supposed to be, her presence might add an extra layer of difficulty and frustration to Harry's day and Jim is always in favor of that.
Also I've seen nothing to indicate that Fix OR Lily got much in the way of open access to Summer's information, any more than Harry has. He's still just a paper cup to the court, and he has officially outlived the Lady that he was hired by. I strongly suspect they were both being neglected by the wider court in step with Titania, so I doubt they've been schooled to heavily in the subtle shadings of the courts (Unless Eldest Gruff made the effort).
Beyond that, we dont know how long it has been since they've had a Knight that was actually Good at much besides Killing. And more than 100 years ago, there's not really much else you'd expect from somebody with the title of Knight. The ones we know of have mostly been of the murderous sort, but then for all we know Maeve has been in charge of the hiring for all that time.
That's a fair point(s). But would Titania really be the only one capable of tutoring Lily and Fix? I would think there are countless courtiers around them much less crippled by grief and rage and much more benevolently open (like Eldest Gruff, as you said), able and willing to ensure the two of them understand the nature of the Courts. Unless Titania forbade them from doing that, at which point her relatively understandable grief becomes actively malicious bitterness. She's certainly capable of that, but against those of her own Court?
Also, at the Okemos MI Q&A, Jim mentioned why killers were usually chosen to be the Winter Knight- because it's probably gonna be someone who's murdering you anyway, and Mab doesn't like to train new people. That doesn't rule out an extended list of duties, but it definitely implies (to me) that knifework is at the top of the list.
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Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL
Rashid represents me perfectly. Only he's a foot taller, 20 pounds lighter, probably still has all his hair, and his wardrobe is kickass.
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Well, I don't think many of us have a physical representation in the books. The closest character similarity to me is Butters. LOL
Sure. I'm not saying there isn't diversity either. But for women, here's your cast:
White blonde, most with blue eyes: Karrin, Molly, Charity, Mab/Titania, Aurora, Ivy, Georgia, Luccio (post-swap), Gard, Lash (initially), Sarissa, Anna V, Hannah, Justine, Elaine, Kelly Hamilton, Abby, Monica S
White brunette: Lara, Inari, Tania, Natalia, Elisa, Madeline, Lacuna, Tess, Deirdre, Margaret, Maggie, Esmerelda (Eebs seem Spansih rather than Latino), Helen B, Lydia (Cassandra's tears), Kim D
White exotic hair: Molly (dyed), Maeve, Jenny G, Lily
White redheads: Lea, Andi
Not white: Susan, Martha, Ancient Mai, Tera, Bianca, Arianna, Olivia (?), Lydia S, Yoshimo
Am I missing anyone? I'm sure there are some more, especially one-off characters.
Anywho, of the not white selection, you've got five that appeared in one book each, one that appeared in two, another that appeared in three, and one that appeared in five.
Combined, the same number of appearances as Murphy alone. :-\
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Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot :'(.
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.
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Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot :'(.
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.
Lydia Stern was the lady who took over Susan's job at the Midwestern Arcane. She was the scathing reporter that Harry asked to help him get Molly out of the room while she was being interrogated.
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Is Bianca non-white?
Monica Sells?
Kumori?
Who is Lydia S? I forgot :'(.
Also, most non-white are dead and Mai and Martha are secondary enough.
I'm giving Bianca the benefit of the doubt because of her advancement in the organization.
Lydia S is the possibly part-asian reporter that Slowpool mentioned.
Monica was a blonde.
Kumori we don't know yet..
I guess there's also Yoshimo, the wizard trainee.
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Thanks, I remember the character (Lydia) now, I just had forgotten her name.
Also you forgot Kim Delaney (a white brunette, I believe)
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lol... Can we just admit that by the wide variety of characters Jim has that he genuinely just writes the characters that pop into his head, and he doesn't attempt to fill any quota? He just writes what comes to him, and that is how it should be.
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lol... Can we just admit that by the wide variety of characters Jim has that he genuinely just writes the characters that pop into his head, and he doesn't attempt to fill any quota? He just writes what comes to him, and that is how it should be.
Exactly this. He's just focused on having a good time, which is a rare enough thing these days. Soapboxes suck.
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At the same time, I can see how frustrating it is that very little of the *Chicago* cast is Black.
I think it's just Rawlins?
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At the same time, I can see how frustrating it is that very little of the *Chicago* cast is Black.
I think it's just Rawlins?
Rawlins and LaMar the paramedic are the only two I can think of at the moment. Plus a number of side characters who I'd be interested in seeing more of, such as the Honorable Mavis Jefferson from Jury Duty. She seems like she could be an ally or antagonist to Harry in equal measure. Maybe Harry too, in the Will Smith alternate universe.
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At the same time, I can see how frustrating it is that very little of the *Chicago* cast is Black.
I think it's just Rawlins?
Stars and Stones.... It depends which part of Chicago you are from.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IUR0W2BKQac/TVco1ggYOqI/AAAAAAAAAC8/CVlIZP2l1Sg/s1600/2005-2009Map-01.jpg)
If he's from any of those blue sections it's almost entirely non black.
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Stars and Stones.... It depends which part of Chicago you are from.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IUR0W2BKQac/TVco1ggYOqI/AAAAAAAAAC8/CVlIZP2l1Sg/s1600/2005-2009Map-01.jpg)
If he's from any of those blue sections it's almost entirely non black.
Huh, interesting. Do you happen to have those for whatever Chicago's other major ethnicities are? Im curious where the rest of the percentages go
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I think Jim writes what he knows. At the signing her was asked about Hindu deities appearing in the series. He said they eventually would, but they hadn't yet because he was hesitent to do so because he didn't know enough about them to do them justice.
I think the same can be said for other demographics and cultures as well. But as groinkick points out, and it came up last time as well, Chicago neighborhoods vary.
My only point was to show the demographics she was talking about. The numbers alone don't take into account that a significant percentage of the women come from three families, all of whom share appearance, while also ignoring the fact that a portion stem from regional mythology that would dictate their appearance.
I think we can all agree that JB should write what he wants, and what he knows, and tell the story as he sees fit. He'll incorporate more elements, be it cultural or demographical or mythological, when and if he's ready to do so in a respectful manner.
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I think Jim writes what he knows. At the signing her was asked about Hindu deities appearing in the series. He said they eventually would, but they hadn't yet because he was hesitant to do so because he didn't know enough about them to do them justice.
True, said the same thing about the Hawaiian mythos, when talking about the eventual Short Story detailing Murphy and Kincaid's "vacation".
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Sure. I'm not saying there isn't diversity either. But for women, here's your cast:
White blonde, most with blue eyes: Karrin, Molly, Charity, Mab/Titania, Aurora, Ivy, Georgia, Luccio (post-swap), Gard, Lash (initially), Sarissa, Anna V, Hannah, Justine, Elaine, Kelly Hamilton, Abby, Monica S
White brunette: Lara, Inari, Tania, Natalia, Elisa, Madeline, Lacuna, Tess, Deirdre, Margaret, Maggie, Esmerelda (Eebs seem Spansih rather than Latino), Helen B, Lydia (Cassandra's tears), Kim D
White exotic hair: Molly (dyed), Maeve, Jenny G, Lily
White redheads: Lea, Andi
Not white: Susan, Martha, Ancient Mai, Tera, Bianca, Arianna, Olivia (?), Lydia S, Yoshimo
Am I missing anyone? I'm sure there are some more, especially one-off characters.
Anywho, of the not white selection, you've got five that appeared in one book each, one that appeared in two, another that appeared in three, and one that appeared in five.
Combined, the same number of appearances as Murphy alone. :-\
I think that when discussing physical appearance all the vampires should be dismissed from the conversation. Reds create their own fleshy shell and while it is probably somewhat similar to their original appearance they definitely ramp up the sex appeal. Whites (specifically those that feed on lust) are also described as being unearthly beautiful or god-like. Remember that Harry saw a different un-demonized Thomas in the soul-gaze. With the vampires (except black) lean and beautiful seem to come with the territory.
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I think Jim writes what he knows. At the signing her was asked about Hindu deities appearing in the series. He said they eventually would, but they hadn't yet because he was hesitent to do so because he didn't know enough about them to do them justice.
I think the same can be said for other demographics and cultures as well. But as groinkick points out, and it came up last time as well, Chicago neighborhoods vary.
My only point was to show the demographics she was talking about. The numbers alone don't take into account that a significant percentage of the women come from three families, all of whom share appearance, while also ignoring the fact that a portion stem from regional mythology that would dictate their appearance.
I think we can all agree that JB should write what he wants, and what he knows, and tell the story as he sees fit. He'll incorporate more elements, be it cultural or demographical or mythological, when and if he's ready to do so in a respectful manner.
Well put. Hit the nail on the head.
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I think that when discussing physical appearance all the vampires should be dismissed from the conversation. Reds create their own fleshy shell and while it is probably somewhat similar to their original appearance they definitely ramp up the sex appeal. Whites (specifically those that feed on lust) are also described as being unearthly beautiful or god-like. Remember that Harry saw a different un-demonized Thomas in the soul-gaze. With the vampires (except black) lean and beautiful seem to come with the territory.
Sure. For any supernatural creature, appearance is a weapon. My list was more oriented toward the racial representation of the series rather than the attractiveness. Because outside of maybe one or two of those I listed, they're all (human and monster alike) described as beautiful.
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Sure. I'm not saying there isn't diversity either. But for women, here's your cast:
White blonde, most with blue eyes: Karrin, Molly, Charity, Mab/Titania, Aurora, Ivy, Georgia, Luccio (post-swap), Gard, Lash (initially), Sarissa, Anna V, Hannah, Justine, Elaine, Kelly Hamilton, Abby, Monica S
White brunette: Lara, Inari, Tania, Natalia, Elisa, Madeline, Lacuna, Tess, Deirdre, Margaret, Maggie, Esmerelda (Eebs seem Spansih rather than Latino), Helen B, Lydia (Cassandra's tears), Kim D
White exotic hair: Molly (dyed), Maeve, Jenny G, Lily
White redheads: Lea, Andi
Not white: Susan, Martha, Ancient Mai, Tera, Bianca, Arianna, Olivia (?), Lydia S, Yoshimo
Am I missing anyone? I'm sure there are some more, especially one-off characters.
Anywho, of the not white selection, you've got five that appeared in one book each, one that appeared in two, another that appeared in three, and one that appeared in five.
Combined, the same number of appearances as Murphy alone. :-\
Lucio's new body had Brown hair and dark eyes rather than blond, but it never actually says White girl that I can find. Id always pictured Asian myself, though I assume that has more to do with the Ghoul she ran with in DB. I honestly think it might have more to do with a general audience-side assumption that a character is white unless there is something more specific mentioned.
It's not all that different on the male side, though. Aside from a pair of Knights, LTW, "Lucky" and maybe Mac (Ive tried and failed to find confirmation either way, I always pictured him black myself), there was a strong preponderance of generally white men (hair color not being a significant delineator on that side). Of course, there was a strong preponderance of Catholics, racially pale Vampires, European mythological figures, and the overall Council membership that has always been noted as being overly skewed toward European. The only groups that should actually /be/ represented by anything like the real regional ethnic distribution would be the Alphas as generic college kids, and Marcone's organization. And maybe the KotC, which are already about as diverse as a 4-person sample size can be.
PS I dont think I understand the distinction between the Eebs being counted as white but Susan not being. Admittedly Ive always struggled with the fuzzy distinction between "White" and "European". I mean, even old Luccio would have been 18th century Italian and a reasonably far cry from the nordic European in terms of coloring.
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Lucio's new body had Brown hair and dark eyes rather than blond, but it never actually says White girl that I can find. Id always pictured Asian myself, though I assume that has more to do with the Ghoul she ran with in DB. I honestly think it might have more to do with a general audience-side assumption that a character is white unless there is something more specific mentioned.
It's not all that different on the male side, though. Aside from a pair of Knights, LTW, "Lucky" and maybe Mac (Ive tried and failed to find confirmation either way, I always pictured him black myself), there was a strong preponderance of generally white men (hair color not being a significant delineator on that side). Of course, there was a strong preponderance of Catholics, racially pale Vampires, European mythological figures, and the overall Council membership that has always been noted as being overly skewed toward European. The only groups that should actually /be/ represented by anything like the real regional ethnic distribution would be the Alphas as generic college kids, and Marcone's organization. And maybe the KotC, which are already about as diverse as a 4-person sample size can be.
PS I dont think I understand the distinction between the Eebs being counted as white but Susan not being. Admittedly Ive always struggled with the fuzzy distinction between "White" and "European". I mean, even old Luccio would have been 18th century Italian and a reasonably far cry from the nordic European in terms of coloring.
I believe white is anything from Europe and even northern Africa, so Luccio would be white. Susan, however, seemed to be more Latino than European Spanish, which is what the Eeb's names are.
You're right, Alicia had brown hair and dark eyes. So she could be anyone.
I'm sure there's some assumption on parts as they picture characters, but I'm not sure it's as simple as default to white. I picture Stallings and Chandler as black, because Stallings made me think of Carl Winslow for some reason, and Chandler made me think of Salmon from James Bond. Alicia made me think of the head mean girl from Mean Girls. I'm sure it's the same for others.
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My interpretation of Jim’s answer is basically “the moment I am writing and start thinking “oh no I don’t have enough of this type of person so who should I change?” Is the moment I am both not writing the story I see in my head, and I am inserting politics into the story. I don’t want to do either of those things, so I will keep writing the same way I always have”
That is a great answer to the question. For what it’s worth, my wife has always said she wouldn’t mind some different body types in the books, but his answer makes perfect sense.
As for his tone, I think he answered in a way to make it plain he had heard the question before, he understands where it is coming from, but it’s not something he intends to pay any attention to.
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I was there too (was the one to ask the first questions) and I disagree with this- the best answer was the one he gave to the sassy girl who asked why his female characters weren't more diverse. You could feel the scorn he put into his explanation, the split second he glared back at her. It was magical.
That aside, it probably won't involve killing a dude. We've already had the drama from that. Unless it's "destroy this person/place/thing", "save this person/place/thing", and "stay away from this person/place/thing". There really isn't all that much more that the Knight is necessary for, at least not that I can think of. His whole purpose is to kill.
That may be the most common use of them, but I suspect there are others. Anything requiring mortal free will to get around the Sidhe rules is likely to involve the Knight. Likewise, more prosaically, anything involving ferrous metals might involve calling in Harry or Fix. If it becomes necessary to carry out some errand in the middle of a steel mill, who ya gonna call?
And even if he did get conflicting orders, would the fact that he's Mab's chosen Knight mean he's more bound to her word than Molly's or Mother's?
Maybe, but I think it might more likely involve the jurisdiction. Bob told Harry that the Knights have specific, different duties to each royal, and the Mothers have said that even they are not permitted to interfere with the Queen and the Lady in their respective areas of authority. So conflicting orders might resolve to 'who is in charge of this area?'. So in her area Molly might take precedence over Mab or Mother Winter, likewise Mab in her area, or Mother Winter. It just so happens that Mab's 'area' is a lot bigger than Molly's, and MW's is a lot bigger than Mab's.
So I would guess that probably most conflicts would resolve in favor of the older royal, but not necessarily all.
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Can you recall his answer? I love when authors remind readers that they aren't obligated to write characters from every conceivable background (and why it's often a bad idea for them to even try).
As for the OP question: what if Mother Winter demands Harry return her staff, while Mab doesn't want to start a big conflict with the White Council?
JB has said the Mother Winter wants it back, but has he ever said that she knows who has it?
Granted, it seems like a huge stretch that she would not know the Council has it, but OTOH, if she knew and the Council stole it (I believe JB did say 'stole'), why wouldn't she just take it back? There are very few powers that could stop her, if she had the legal right under Sidhe law.
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Precisely. I think the stealing was done in a way that is acceptable under the Sidhe law, so she can't do anything. At least, not directly-
I also agree about how conflicting orders could be resolved.
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Precisely. I think the stealing was done in a way that is acceptable under the Sidhe law, so she can't do anything. At least, not directly-
I also agree about how conflicting orders could be resolved.
Same. My theory is that she "loaned" it to her Knight once upon a time needing to Empower him, but said knight (maybe Merlin, who knows) found a loophole in the terms of when he had to give it back. Basically like that time Caesar was given "temporary" wartime powers and just decided to not give them back.
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Same. My theory is that she "loaned" it to her Knight once upon a time needing to Empower him, but said knight (maybe Merlin, who knows) found a loophole in the terms of when he had to give it back. Basically like that time Caesar was given "temporary" wartime powers and just decided to not give them back.
I like that scenario. "You can have the staff until the conflict with XYZ is resolved." All the knight has to do is decide that the conflict is never resolved.
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I don't remember MW exact words. Remember she cannot lie.I believe she said she lost it, right? If so, she may understand she lost it fair and square.
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My interpretation of Jim’s answer is basically “the moment I am writing and start thinking “oh no I don’t have enough of this type of person so who should I change?” Is the moment I am both not writing the story I see in my head, and I am inserting politics into the story. I don’t want to do either of those things, so I will keep writing the same way I always have”
That is a great answer to the question. For what it’s worth, my wife has always said she wouldn’t mind some different body types in the books, but his answer makes perfect sense.
As for his tone, I think he answered in a way to make it plain he had heard the question before, he understands where it is coming from, but it’s not something he intends to pay any attention to.
Let the writer write the way he wants to write.
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Precisely. I think the stealing was done in a way that is acceptable under the Sidhe law, so she can't do anything. At least, not directly-
I also agree about how conflicting orders could be resolved.
I theorize it was actually done in such a way as to satisfy cosmic balance, They were allowed to steal it and incur that debt so as she could avoid owing them by giving it out, though it was necessary for them to acquire it.
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I don't remember MW exact words. Remember she cannot lie.I believe she said she lost it, right? If so, she may understand she lost it fair and square.
Wasn't Archangel or one of the places lost to Merlin in a bet? Perhaps Mother Winter lost some sort of wager?
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Wasn't Archangel or one of the places lost to Merlin in a bet? Perhaps Mother Winter lost some sort of wager?
Edinburough, he apparently won it from a wyldfae king.
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So I would guess that probably most conflicts would resolve in favor of the older royal, but not necessarily all.
It’s the Sidhe it’s never that simple. It could very easily come down to who Harry has incurred the most obligation with. And there is considerable question as to how much Molly considers herself owing Harry, and vice versa. Their personal relationship is potentially a very significant factor in any power struggles between Molly and Mab, something I am sure Mab is just thrilled about.