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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on August 23, 2023, 06:53:16 PM
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Two titbits dropped about Next Book.
1. Harry gets a Valkyrie bodyguard,
2. Harry gets a new apprentice
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Two titbits dropped about Next Book.
Do you mean the one with working-title Twelve Months?
Or by "next" do you mean the book after that?
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I refuse to use that Title as it doesn’t have a double meaning.
I am of course referring to the book Jim is currently not working on.
I think that Lara tasks Freydis with looking after Harry to make sure that he gets to the alter in mostly one piece.
No idea about the apprentice, but please, please, please let it be a nephew or Brice of Lamar.
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1. Harry gets a Valkyrie bodyguard,
I need this to be Murphy, because the drama would be so juicy, and also would mess with us so bad, lol.
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Well Jim could keep it simple and have Maggie Jr. as the apprentice. My longshots would be Fitz(from GS) or Hope Carpenter.
Freydis would make sense as a bodyguard.
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I think “nanny” rather than “Bodyguard” Harry has made an enemy of Nameless and Miss Lapland, as a fellow Scandinavian Freydis will be able to give Harry the skinny on them. Typical rivalry between the Swedes and the Finns. I can see Harry running Freydis ragged.
This also equalises his position with Marcone.
Who is to say that the new apprentice is an established character? The supercharged magical atmosphere of Battle Ground will have set off any number of prepubescent Wizards to be. Harry is likely to be dealing with a 10-12 year old, whose parents consider Harry a better bet than the White Council. That means someone who knows i.e. a Paranetter family.
Or his 18 year old son by Elaine. I have pointed out on another thread that if Elaine was pregnant around the time of Justin’s death then any child would turn 18 during Next Book. It’s not that Jim has overused the trope of “long lost relative” only for his brother, Grandfather, both children and briefly his parents.
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Although the interviewer didn't get to my question about Ivy, he got my intro about the Pathfinder RPG and how I look forward to meeting Jim at Fantasyfestival in Denmark next month. I really hope I get to talk to him a few minutes about it (and maybe ask one or two Dresden Files related questions outside of the Q&A).
Of course I'd love for the Valkyrie bodyguard to be Murphy... it would neatly circumvent the "out of the memory of living beings" clause for Einherjar, without having made Sigrun a liar.
And making Fitz his apprentice would also tie up my long-standing annoyance with that entire sub-plot of Ghost Story, which seemed a gigantic waste of pages at the time.
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It concerns me that Jim let this info drop so casually, most unlike Jim unless he has twists in mind, he his building an expectation only to confound us later.
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Murphy cannot be a Valkyrie, they don’t make winged horses that small and she would never live down a winged pony.
Fitz doesn’t have a broad enough talent to be a wizard, but I could see him apprenticing to Mort.
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I just watched the interview and came straight here to see if anyone had caught these "tidbits".
My opinion, is that it won't be Karen, because of the limitations Odin requires. The only reason it would happen is the absolute torture Harry would experience with as he prepares for and approaches his wedding to Laura.
I could almost see the conversation...
Karen- I was dead a week? And already you're engaged? Did you have her crawl inside your hospital bed?
As for apprentice, I think Maggie's too young yet, I'm hoping for Fitz
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Fitz doesn’t have a broad enough talent to be a wizard, but I could see him apprenticing to Mort.
This makes sense! I'd love to see Fitz show up again, but his skill set does match Mort's more closely than Harry's.
I do think Maggie will have some sort of ability/talent at some point; Mom was a half-Ramp, Dad's a wizard, so the odds are stacked in favor of her being magically-inclined. (Plus who else would Harry have caught conjouritis from? School kids are a vector for germs, after all. Even if her abilities haven't kicked in yet, Maggie could still carry it. 🤣) But is she old enough yet for her power to awaken? Maybe one of her school friends will be the new apprentice.
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This makes sense! I'd love to see Fitz show up again, but his skill set does match Mort's more closely than Harry's.
I do think Maggie will have some sort of ability/talent at some point; Mom was a half-Ramp, Dad's a wizard, so the odds are stacked in favor of her being magically-inclined. (Plus who else would Harry have caught conjouritis from? School kids are a vector for germs, after all. Even if her abilities haven't kicked in yet, Maggie could still carry it. 🤣) But is she old enough yet for her power to awaken? Maybe one of her school friends will be the new apprentice.
I agree with most of what you say except I doubt that little Maggie inherited anything of Susan's vampside.. Because she was infected, it wasn't inherited like in the case of White Court vamps. It is possible that the vamp infection crossed the placenta during Susan's pregnancy or maybe I guess she might have gotten infected during the birthing process, but I think if either were the case it would have shown up by now. Even if it had, being a Red Court Vamp doesn't automatically give you magical talent.
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... they don’t make winged horses that small and she would never live down a winged pony.
Witty!
But incorrect. Both the Icelandic Horse and the Norwegian Fjord Horse are very small indeed, AND come from Odin's old stomping-grounds. Murphy won't have been the first "tiny, but fierce!" on his radar...
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... I do think Maggie will have some sort of ability/talent at some point; Mom was a half-Ramp, Dad's a wizard, so the odds are stacked in favor of her being magically-inclined ...
Rampires are made, not born. It's almost like a psychic version of the parasitoid wasps -- an adult Rampire can implant an immature Ramp-spirit, when it attacks a suitable mortal host. They cannot reproduce from the hosts' mating (Whampires are the opposite, reproducing with host-matings but unable to spread by attacking/infecting others). I don't think we have any (canonical) reason to think Susan would have "passed along" any special powers/abilities. Is there WoJ on the matter???
As for Harry's bloodline... I think it almost as unlikely. Harry says inheritance of magical powers is poorly understood, but mostly (when it happens) follows "Salic Law," i.e. the mother's bloodline. Harry's mom was a strong magician, but his dad was a muggle. That said... WoJ was that Eb's wife (Margaret LeFay's mother) was herself a muggle; so if Harry's birth is a case in point, the prior generation proved the opposite point.
Finally, of course, is the question of plotline & story. Maggie having strong talent, and needing training, will add to the complexity of Harry's life, so of course Jim will write it that way! Unless he decides not to (in order to confound the fans and mess with expectations, I'd presume).
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What about Bones? It has been postulated that she might be able to enflesh her skull with an ectoplasmic body. Her apprenticeship may not be in being a wizard (she has those skills) but in being human.
As I said Jim was a bit too eager to drop that titbit, normally it mean he is squaring up for something really from left field. There has been a lot of criticism of Bonea being underused, this would address this.
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Bonea would be Bob's apprentice. Harry would be teaching her about life in general to give her grounding, but her magic would be of the same nature as Bob's.
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What about Bones? It has been postulated that she might be able to enflesh her skull with an ectoplasmic body. Her apprenticeship may not be in being a wizard (she has those skills) but in being human ...
Bonea would be Bob's apprentice. Harry would be teaching her about life in general to give her grounding, but her magic would be of the same nature as Bob's.
I think Harry is putting in extra effort to keep pervy Bob far far away from Bonea while she's putting herself together.
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If Bonea manifests Harry might not have a choice.
Helping Bonea learn to be human may help Harry get back in touch with his humanity despite the Mantle and everything that has happened to him. Harry learnt much teaching Molly and became a better wizard, who is to say the same wouldn’t happen with Bonea, learning control, to think things through, and to appreciate consequences. Bonea has all of Harry’s memories up to birth, ideal in examining his past decisions.
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I agree with both Mira and g33k: Maggie can't inherit Rampness or anything of a vampiric nature directly from Susan.
But-- we've been told that children in utero are exposed to their mother's magic, and that can affect their likelihood of becoming a wizard themselves. It happened with Charity and Molly; despite Charity denying her magic, there was enough influence left during the pregnancy for Molly to develop a talent of her own.
Susan wasn't a wizard, but she still had something supernatural about her nature-- plus she had the magical tattoos that warned when her Rampness was in danger of taking over. I think it's possible that such early exposure might tip the scales toward little Maggie developing her own wizardry abilities someday. It's not quite the same thing as Maggie "inheriting" Ramp powers. It's (IMHO) a question of increasing Maggie's odds of being magically strong enough to become a practitioner, if not a full wizard herself.
I could be wrong. But it's a theory (or maybe a WAG.) 🤷♀️
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... Susan wasn't a wizard, but she still had something supernatural about her nature-- plus she had the magical tattoos that warned when her Rampness was in danger of taking over. I think it's possible that such early exposure might tip the scales toward little Maggie developing her own wizardry abilities someday. It's not quite the same thing as Maggie "inheriting" Ramp powers. It's (IMHO) a question of increasing Maggie's odds of being magically strong enough to become a practitioner, if not a full wizard herself.
Possible.
We don't have any real info to go upon.
AFAIK, the Dresden Files offers zero cases of a "half Rampire" mother (other than Susan).
As I said, the real issue is how Jim wants to write it... he can justify it, in-universe from prior statements, either way.
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Susan wasn't a wizard, but she still had something supernatural about her nature-- plus she had the magical tattoos that warned when her Rampness was in danger of taking over
There was nothing "supernatural" about Susan's nature, she made her living reporting on it, but that didn't make her supernatural. For all her reporting about it and actually having an actual wizard as a boyfriend, she still didn't really respect the supernatural. By that I mean deep down she didn't really believe it, that's what got her into trouble in my opinion. The tattoos were done by Martin, and though perhaps magical in of themselves and reacted to Red Vampire venom rising for lack of a better term to warn a half turned victim, they didn't make the half turned his or herself more magical.
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A Red vampire, even a half-turned one, isn't supernatural?
Though I suppose that begs the question of what we define as "supernatural" in the world of Dresden, and yeah, that's a headache. 😔 Maybe it's safer to say Susan wasn't a "typical mortal" at the time of Maggie's conception. I wonder if that's the kind of influence that might increase the odds of Maggie becoming a wizard, or not. We only know what Harry knows about such things... and there's so much Harry doesn't know. 🤷♀️
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A Red vampire, even a half-turned one, isn't supernatural?
Though I suppose that begs the question of what we define as "supernatural" in the world of Dresden, and yeah, that's a headache. 😔 Maybe it's safer to say Susan wasn't a "typical mortal" at the time of Maggie's conception. I wonder if that's the kind of influence that might increase the odds of Maggie becoming a wizard, or not. We only know what Harry knows about such things... and there's so much Harry doesn't know. 🤷♀️
Somehow I don't see Red Court vampires as very supernatural, or not in the same way as magical talent is supernatural. I don't see Susan being half vampire increasing the chances of Maggie having talent.. If she has talent, and I'd be shocked if she doesn't, it will be because her father, her grandmother, her grandfather and who know who many generations back were powerful wizards. But even with that, it isn't a given, take Thomas, his half brother is a powerful wizard, his mother and grandfather are and were powerful wizards, his father a White Court vampire lord with some magical wards surrounding his person, yet Thomas has very little magical talent. Yes, he managed a tracking spell, but that takes some talent, but not enough to become a wizard.
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We know nothing of Susan’s family so we can’t even make a guess a
About any magical inheritance on her side of the family.
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We know nothing of Susan’s family so we can’t even make a guess a
About any magical inheritance on her side of the family.
While that is true, we do know that before she was infected, she showed nothing.
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While that is true, we do know that before she was infected, she showed nothing.
This is true. And over on the Dresden side of the family... we have a very small sample size, but there seems to be a pretty good possibility it will be passed down (father, daughter, and both grandchildren all show some level of ability.) I expect Maggie will have power of some sort... but I've been wrong before. 🤷♀️ It's up to Jim.
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This is true. And over on the Dresden side of the family... we have a very small sample size, but there seems to be a pretty good possibility it will be passed down (father, daughter, and both grandchildren all show some level of ability.) I expect Maggie will have power of some sort... but I've been wrong before. 🤷♀️ It's up to Jim.
I got the impression from the short story about her trip to the zoo with Mouse that she did indeed have talent, just not apparent to her dad yet.
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She had abilities shared with all other young children to see certain things an adult could not perceive, and lost knowledge of as they grew up. The Carpenters were mentioned but they hardly prove a point as they produced a Wizard, and therefore do not provide a control group. Some rather than all and with a degree of talent no matter how minor can be inserted in.
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I prefer the belief that Maggie got something from being born from a Half-turned Red Court Vampire. It was a portion of power that she was exposed to 'in vitro'. That power hadn't been thoroughly tainted or set as Susan had yet to feed. It could be that Maggie won't come into some semblance of the Half Red Court Vampire power until her middle teens or young adulthood. Even if she didn't get power while Susan was pregnant, Maggie was at the Seat of the Red Court Vampire's Power in Chicken Pizza. It could very well be that as a youngster she was still able to absorb some of the ambient mana. I actually prefer the idea that Maggie becomes some sort of Princess for the Remaining Red Court Vampires that are out there. I like the idea that the Eebs come to be her behind the scene bodyguards/minions at some point.
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Two titbits dropped about Next Book.
1. Harry gets a Valkyrie bodyguard,
2. Harry gets a new apprentice
I'm still of the mind that Murphy intersects in Identity with Mab at some point. I know i've postulated the Murphy/Mab theory before. I even allowed for it to be in past, future, or parallel reality. Murphy was one of the few females that were locked down with Mab in Demonreach when Maeve believed it was possible for Mab to die. I'd think that with near infinite parallel realities some Mab did die there and one of the alternate females absorbed Mab's mantle. I'm assuming that Maeve died too. Or, the possibility that Maeve's/Lily's death led to someone other than Maeve's/Lily's Mantle going to someone different than Molly/Sarissa. Perhaps a Murphy got the Lady Mantle then.
I was one of the first to think of the alternate Mab's existence in the parallel realities as being Out Mab's. We do now have WOJ that Mab talks at times with her Other Selves in the other Parallel Universes. We also know that a Parallel Mab can sense minions of another Parallel Mab that finds themselves in Her Reality. She would then just use them as if they were her own. I think our Mab would be aware of some change in another Mab with a different mortal being 'the cup' that holds that Mantle.
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Somehow I don't see Red Court vampires as very supernatural, or not in the same way as magical talent is supernatural...
???!?
They are supernaturally-strong.
They are supernaturally-tough.
They are supernaturally-vulnerable to sunlight.
They are inherently-able to summon an ectoplasmic "flesh mask" from the Nevernever.
This seems... passably "supernatural" in nature.
A well-prepared wizard is usually superior to a Rampire, of course.
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Well, yes, but it's a different type of "supernatural." Red vamps aren't human anymore, where a wizard is kind of "human with an upgrade." And half-Ramps like Susan are caught halfway between human and other... or maybe just frozen mid-transition. It's been a long time since I've read the earlier books, but if I'm remembering right, Susan only had partial Ramp abilities, and she was still human enough to have a child. So she wasn't fully supernatural before she turned... yet she wasn't 100% typical human either. 🤷♀️
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Well, yes, but it's a different type of "supernatural." Red vamps aren't human anymore, where a wizard is kind of "human with an upgrade." And half-Ramps like Susan are caught halfway between human and other... or maybe just frozen mid-transition. It's been a long time since I've read the earlier books, but if I'm remembering right, Susan only had partial Ramp abilities, and she was still human enough to have a child. So she wasn't fully supernatural before she turned... yet she wasn't 100% typical human either. 🤷♀️
Exactly, before she was infected she was 100% vanilla human, if she had talent it was of the ordinary kind like Butters when we first meet him..
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Exactly, before she was infected she was 100% vanilla human, if she had talent it was of the ordinary kind like Butters when we first meet him..
Yes, but we are led to believe by the books that Susan didn't become pregnant until after she was infected. So Maggie is the child of a wizard and a quasi-ramp. If she has any magical potential, then Chichen Itza may have activated it early.
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Well, yes, but it's a different type of "supernatural."
This really goes into an idea I've been playing with in my head where I classify things in the Dresden verse as a Being, Creature, or Mantle. I'd put vampires as creatures, whereas Odin is a Being, and Kringle, the queens, and the Knight are mantles. I have a long draft of a post I am working on for the topic.
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Well, yes, but it's a different type of "supernatural."
I'm... honestly unclear what you mean. I don't think "a different type of supernatural" is all that meaningful, in the Dresdenverse.
One can dice it finely: point to faeries as one type (or several, mincing finer than we diced), and ghosts as another type, ghouls as a type, etc etc etc.
I don't see anything about Rampires that silo's them uniquely into a "different type" from any of those many other different types.
Red vamps aren't human anymore, where a wizard is kind of "human with an upgrade." And half-Ramps like Susan are caught halfway between human and other... or maybe just frozen mid-transition.
A half-ramp is arguably also kind of a "human with an upgrade!" ;D
A Ramp-attack infects the victim with a "Rampire Spirit," more or less. It seems to be a psychic version of what a Tarantula-wasp (or a xenomorph from Alien) does. Until the victim kills somebody (and the spirit hatches) they are still essentially human.
It's been a long time since I've read the earlier books, but if I'm remembering right, Susan only had partial Ramp abilities
Physically, Susan was able to go toe-to-toe in combat with a full Rampire; half-ramp speed & strength was 100% of full-ramp speed & strength. Her narcotic/addictive pleasure-saliva wasn't as potent as a full Ramp, but it was strong. She was much much tougher than a human, but not as tough as a Ramp (a hollowpoint round to the heart would kill her instantly, but a Rampire could recover).
Basically, she had most of the Rampire power-ups, but not the immunities (nor the weaknesses -- a deep gut-wound would take the Ramp's blood reservoir; but Susan could regenerate from almost any wound that left her alive (if she could get a little bit of blood)).
The half-Ramp's also have the horrible blood-lust of the Rampire-larva to contend with, and violence (or violent emotions (including erotic desire)) can make that much worse.
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In response to those thinking that we'll see Murphy, ...lips, turning blue... ...blood, on the asphalt... , shake it off, in Twelve Months, except for passages like that, which should decrease as the book progresses, I don't think we will. I maintain that she'll have a significant role in Mirror Mirror, where she does her best to take Harry down.
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I suspect Harry will bring at least one person back with him from Mirror, Mirror but NOT Murphy, no quick resurrections. . I rather think given Journal it will be Morgan still alive in MM as he can fill in part of Harry’s story, enemy becomes friend is a trope Jim has yet to use.
All Einenjharen are deployed at Ragnarok (which is likely to be the BAT) where Odin dies taking the Einenjharen with him. Harry gets to see Murphy die AGAIN. However we know successful resurrection requires soul fire so Harry can bring he back and she would live until Harry dies, solving the aging problem. A much more satisfying arc (for Jim).
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I suspect Harry will bring at least one person back with him from Mirror, Mirror but NOT Murphy, no quick resurrections. . I rather think given Journal it will be Morgan still alive in MM as he can fill in part of Harry’s story, enemy becomes friend is a trope Jim has yet to use.
All Einenjharen are deployed at Ragnarok (which is likely to be the BAT) where Odin dies taking the Einenjharen with him. Harry gets to see Murphy die AGAIN. However we know successful resurrection requires soul fire so Harry can bring he back and she would live until Harry dies, solving the aging problem. A much more satisfying arc (for Jim).
However Harry isn't divine, I don't think even angels have the power to resurrect, there are rules about that. No, it is more like Murphy will be a figure that Jim will torture the readers with until the series ends.. Also you have to ask yourself , Murphy as a Einenjharen may seem satisfactory for Harry, but if she is altered, will it? More importantly, Murphy was a woman of faith, her reward should have been a ticket to Heaven, maybe she won't be happy chugging ale in Valhalla.
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All of the Einenjharen are resurrected and Odin has Soulfire which is a gift of the White God according to a WOJ. If you are resurrected you will be fighting for the White God. Harry isn’t divine but he has access to a divine source of power.
My theory is the Blamps are an attempt to resurrect without Soulfire.
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However Harry isn't divine, I don't think even angels have the power to resurrect, there are rules about that ...
Oh, angels have the power to do it.
But, as you say: there are rules about that! ;)
... Murphy was a woman of faith, her reward should have been a ticket to Heaven ...
I am suspecting some sort of Uriel/Odin backroom deal, here.
Same way Uriel's "cops" in the afterlife "precinct" are still busily involved in mortal affairs -- not ready to move on to "what comes next" -- I think Murphy may not be ready. But also: Chosen by a valkyrie, eligible for the einherjaren status.
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I am suspecting some sort of Uriel/Odin backroom deal, here.
Same way Uriel's "cops" in the afterlife "precinct" are still busily involved in mortal affairs -- not ready to move on to "what comes next" -- I think Murphy may not be ready. But also: Chosen by a valkyrie, eligible for the einherjaren status.
You could be right about that, but if she isn't ready to move on, I doubt that she would have been unhappy working with her father for Uriel. I still think even though she was chosen by a valkyrie and future einherjaren, it conflicts with her faith.
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Murphy is probably in time out in Valhalla, watching the Einenjharen eat the boar which comes back to life each day, loudly complaining that she would rather have a nice healthy chicken salad.
I don’t think it conflicts with her faith she was chosen by Saint Nicholas for this role, and does not mean that she is denied heaven, merely diverted until Ragnarok, when she dies with Odin (unless Harry resurrects her again). I suspect Harry has been dwelling on how Einenjharen are resurrected, and doubtless will be seeking further info from his new bodyguard. Freydis probably doesn’t know Harry has Soulfire, and may let drop that Odin does and it is essential for this type of resurrection.
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You could be right about that, but if she isn't ready to move on, I doubt that she would have been unhappy working with her father for Uriel. I still think even though she was chosen by a valkyrie and future einherjaren, it conflicts with her faith.
I can really see Murphy looking at the kinds of limitations Uriel puts on his operatives, and asking if he doesn't have anything with a bit more "kicking monsters' asses" involved in the duties.
"I know a guy..." sez Uriel.
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I can really see Murphy looking at the kinds of limitations Uriel puts on his operatives, and asking if he doesn't have anything with a bit more "kicking monsters' asses" involved in the duties.
"I know a guy..." sez Uriel.
This.
Murphy was a cop and she was a good one. That meant she had to follow all the rules about use of force and rights of the accused even when she knew she was facing the guilty.
Being able to just go out and curb stomp baddies from the get-go would be like heaven to her.
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... she had to follow all the rules about use of force and rights of the accused even when she knew she was facing the guilty.
Being able to just go out and curb stomp baddies from the get-go would be like heaven to her.
Plus -- that's what Dresden did.
And (aside from the romantic element of love), she loved that he did that.
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I think “nanny” rather than “Bodyguard” Harry has made an enemy of Nameless and Miss Lapland, as a fellow Scandinavian Freydis will be able to give Harry the skinny on them. Typical rivalry between the Swedes and the Finns. I can see Harry running Freydis ragged.
This also equalises his position with Marcone.
Well, yes but does Marcone even need Ms. Gard any longer? He might need her as a liaison to Vadderung. Though her magical talents are considerable Marcone has Spiny Boy to advise on matters involving magic. Perhaps Marcone might keep Gard around for sake of appearance; he doesn't want his partnership with Thorned Namshiel to become known to the general magical community. Mab, Lara, Odin and anyone else at the post Battle of Chicago meeting already know this because Harry told them by addressing Marcone as Sir Baron, but none of them are likely to talk about what they learned there. It's possible that Gard doesn't know, unless she witnessed Marcone change during the battle. Even if Gard doesn't know I would expect her to find out, she's too capable not to figure it out.
If Ms. Gard was no longer acting as Marcone's bodyguard, then she could become Harry's bodyguard. For professional reasons Gard couldn't tell Harry anything about Marcone beyond very general information, but knowing that she had potentially critical information would be irritating to Harry, making Gard a fun choice.
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Who is to say that the new apprentice is an established character? The supercharged magical atmosphere of Battle Ground will have set off any number of prepubescent Wizards to be. Harry is likely to be dealing with a 10-12 year old, whose parents consider Harry a better bet than the White Council. That means someone who knows i.e. a Paranetter family.
When you think about the potential favors Harry owes to the survivors who followed his Banner during the Battle of Chicago, this makes sense. Someone who saw Harry in action and suddenly found out their son, daughter or younger brother or sister was showing signs of magical talent, Harry would be the logical choice to that person to approach. They wouldn't know anyone in the White Council, but they would know Harry.
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I think it would be someone who parents were known to Harry, not necessarily the Paranetters, but Lamar’s neice or nephew or Larry Fowler Jr perhaps? Someone with a beef against Harry like Charity had, or someone from the Murphy clan, one of her nieces or nephews? They are mentioned at the familypicnic yet would put Harry into angst especially if she is short and blonde.
Just think of the thing which is going to cause Harry the most grief and work backwards from that I believe that is Jim’s method of character development for the character. A Wizard Murphette would do exactly that.
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... Just think of the thing which is going to cause Harry the most grief and work backwards from that I believe that is Jim’s method of character development for the character ...
This seems a fair assessment; grief, or just sheer complication/trouble.
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I had another possible apprentice thought pop into my head this morning.
Helen Beckkit has enough power to be in the order of the big black pot, how about her daughter? We never hear if the fake shroud had any affect on her, but Harry has the real Shroud... Think of how Sir John will feel if Harry is responsible for healing her, and she becomes his apprentice, not to mention its affect on Helen. The only flaw I see, is that she was a child at the time, so she would have an almost Bonny like learning curve if she wakes with power...
Thoughts?
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When you think about the potential favors Harry owes to the survivors who followed his Banner during the Battle of Chicago, this makes sense. Someone who saw Harry in action and suddenly found out their son, daughter or younger brother or sister was showing signs of magical talent, Harry would be the logical choice to that person to approach. They wouldn't know anyone in the White Council, but they would know Harry.
Or there is a very simple or perhaps obvious, maybe too obvious, Molly has younger brothers and sisters, the wizard gene is still present.. Or another perhaps, history repeats itself, as little Maggie begins to show talent, Harry takes her under his wing, trying very hard not to make the same mistakes his grandfather made with his mother.. Question is, will he succeed?
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I had another possible apprentice thought pop into my head this morning.
Helen Beckkit has enough power to be in the order of the big black pot, how about her daughter? We never hear if the fake shroud had any affect on her, but Harry has the real Shroud... Think of how Sir John will feel if Harry is responsible for healing her, and she becomes his apprentice, not to mention its affect on Helen. The only flaw I see, is that she was a child at the time, so she would have an almost Bonny like learning curve if she wakes with power...
Thoughts?
I rather like this, actually... well-considered!
Right now, she's a dangling plot-thread.
As Harry's new apprentice, she's woven back into the story... in ways likely to cause all manner of troubles for Harry. Both Helen Beckitt and John Marcone have a vested interest, and will react very-badly-indeed to Harry's interference. But Helen is both emotionally and magically unprepared to raise a strong talent, and... well, Marcone training her would be an "over Harry's dead body" sort of thing, I think.
The child-like aspect actually works well, here; Jim hasn't shown much skill with writing teen girls (they're either too little-girl or too adult).
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I rather like this, actually... well-considered!
Right now, she's a dangling plot-thread.
As Harry's new apprentice, she's woven back into the story... in ways likely to cause all manner of troubles for Harry. Both Helen Beckitt and John Marcone have a vested interest, and will react very-badly-indeed to Harry's interference. But Helen is both emotionally and magically unprepared to raise a strong talent, and... well, Marcone training her would be an "over Harry's dead body" sort of thing, I think.
The child-like aspect actually works well, here; Jim hasn't shown much skill with writing teen girls (they're either too little-girl or too adult).
I don't see it working because Helen Becket might even be older than Harry, or at least the same age. I don't remember Helen Becket being very childlike either, just a grieving mother and widow.
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If she is a Wizard she is both long lived meaning a couple of decades in a coma is not going to be a big bite from her life, and she heals completely over time, so forget the fake shroud she may wake up of her own accord, without the physical deterioration long term coma patients have.
Indeed the events of Battle Ground may have “woken” her up escaping her hospital and in the six months since she has been a refugee confused by the time jump and by her own power.
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If she is a Wizard she is both long lived meaning a couple of decades in a coma is not going to be a big bite from her life, and she heals completely over time, so forget the fake shroud she may wake up of her own accord, without the physical deterioration long term coma patients have.
Indeed the events of Battle Ground may have “woken” her up escaping her hospital and in the six months since she has been a refugee confused by the time jump and by her own power.
Now I am confused... ???
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I could almost see the conversation...
Karen- I was dead a week? And already you're engaged? Did you have her crawl inside your hospital bed?
My view that there is a Mab=Murphy in some reality means Murphy dies and MabMurphy(perhaps via Mab collective) immediately that day tells Harry to marry Lara. Has more bang I think. Also this is Harry's thoughts on the matter from Cold Days.
“You need to run a few more,” I said. “Because you’re asking too much of me. It’s more than I can give you.” “Why?” she asked. “Because your lover fell in battle?” I gave her a furious look. She took it without noticing, and I was too tired to keep it up. “You will heal. I have buried a cohort of lovers over the years, Dresden,” she said, without malice. “We won this battle. Enjoy the victory. But the war goes on—and it must yet be fought.” It wasn’t like I saw Murph’s shade standing there. That would have been too much. But I could imagine what it would look like, standing there, staring at me impatiently while Mab said things that would become no less true just because I didn’t like them.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files Book 17) (p. 394). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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I don't see it working because Helen Becket might even be older than Harry, or at least the same age. I don't remember Helen Becket being very childlike either, just a grieving mother and widow.
Not Helen, but Helen's daughter, who, Harry can most likely heal with the True Shroud of Turin, that he collected from Hades' Vault
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My view that there is a Mab=Murphy in some reality means Murphy dies and MabMurphy(perhaps via Mab collective) immediately that day tells Harry to marry Lara. Has more bang I think. Also this is Harry's thoughts on the matter from Cold Days.
“You need to run a few more,” I said. “Because you’re asking too much of me. It’s more than I can give you.” “Why?” she asked. “Because your lover fell in battle?” I gave her a furious look. She took it without noticing, and I was too tired to keep it up. “You will heal. I have buried a cohort of lovers over the years, Dresden,” she said, without malice. “We won this battle. Enjoy the victory. But the war goes on—and it must yet be fought.” It wasn’t like I saw Murph’s shade standing there. That would have been too much. But I could imagine what it would look like, standing there, staring at me impatiently while Mab said things that would become no less true just because I didn’t like them.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files Book 17) (p. 394). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I see that as Mab has no patience with someone grieving over a lover. She needs her Knight alert and ready to fight. I think Mab thought she was helping Harry by ordering him to marry Lara. Kind of like getting a new puppy or kitten as soon as possible after the loss of a beloved dog or cat to ease one's grief..
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I don't see it working because Helen Becket might even be older than Harry, or at least the same age...
The theory here revolves around Helen's daughter, the "Jane Doe in a coma," who Marcone tried to restore via the (fake) Shroud.
Helen had a minor talent; what if her daughter was a substantive (wizard-caliber) talent?
That whole "wizard healing factor" could have meant that she was quietly regenerating... even nerve damage that mortals cannot.
Then maybe the huge magical fallout from the Battle of Chicago could have finally tipped her into wakefullness.
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She'd be a young woman, with the experience / education / outlook of a child... and a full-blown wizard's talent.
The White Council isn't likely to be willing to take on her training. Helen Beckitt isn't competent to do so. Pretty sure Harry wouldn't be willing to give her over to Marcone (Thorned Namshiel) for training.
This leaves... Pretty much only Harry himself.
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I presume that as Helen has taken the alias Demeter, that miss Beckett is called Penelope. Her father was also a minor talent.
Harry is raising two young daughters so Penny as an apprentice will make things very interesting for Harry.
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... Her father was also a minor talent...
Wizardly "Salic Law" suggests that the mother's line matters for magical talent, not the fathers.
OTOH, that's from unreliable-narrator Harry.
WoJ says IIRC that Ebenezer's wife -- Margeret LeFay's mother -- was NOT a magical talent... whither Salic Law, hmmm?
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Harry who has had multiple entities playing in his head, and numerous concussions, an unreliable narrator.
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For the apprentice my money is on Austin the Warlock from Zoo Day. He's already displayed 3 different magical abilities, all significant wizard level stuff.
1. Summoning multiple dangerous entities from the nevernever with zero prep work or ritual items.
2. Directed mental influencen strong enough to affect a wizard. Harry does blow it off pretty easily, but considering we've seen him power through very strong mental attacks with nothing but willpower, the fact that he used an actual spell to deflect austin's whammy is significant.
3. Ambient energy strong enough to affect entire crowds of people in the zoo, what harry describes as a place full of life and energy. Victor Sells was a full on sorcerer, and even he needed months of steady work to get his own house all dark and moody.
I know that Rat was pushing Austin, but the kid obviously has significant juice, several talents, and is leaning towards warlock already. Harry won't foist him off on the council, but austin clearly needs instruction or he'll keep hurting people.
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For the apprentice my money is on Austin the Warlock from Zoo Day. He's already displayed 3 different magical abilities, all significant wizard level stuff.
1. Summoning multiple dangerous entities from the nevernever with zero prep work or ritual items.
2. Directed mental influencen strong enough to affect a wizard. Harry does blow it off pretty easily, but considering we've seen him power through very strong mental attacks with nothing but willpower, the fact that he used an actual spell to deflect austin's whammy is significant.
3. Ambient energy strong enough to affect entire crowds of people in the zoo, what harry describes as a place full of life and energy. Victor Sells was a full on sorcerer, and even he needed months of steady work to get his own house all dark and moody.
I know that Rat was pushing Austin, but the kid obviously has significant juice, several talents, and is leaning towards warlock already. Harry won't foist him off on the council, but austin clearly needs instruction or he'll keep hurting people.
I think you are on to something. Harry has a belief that young talented kids can easily take a wrong turn if not guided properly and can be redeemed. That's one thing he really doesn't see eye to eye with the Merlin about. The Merlin seems to feel that once a kid slips on that black magic banana peel it is a down hill slide ending with the chop. Both views have their points, the Merlin feels that a little preventive chop action is worth a ton of trying to undo the damage a full blown warlock can do. Harry thinks that there are few misguided kids that cannot be redeemed if a master wizard chooses to take the risk and the trouble to redeem the kid.. The Korean Kid as pointed out by the Merlin did a lot of damage, and though young wasn't redeemable. Harry sees himself as a case of redemption though he has slipped on that black magic banana peel from time to time, but hasn't quite fallen on his behind yet. I don't think Molly ever really thought that what she did to try and help her friends was wrong, even though it did a lot of damage. I think it was this little fact that made her attractive to Mab to train up as a potential Lady.
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Is “the Law” available in anthology yet?
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Is “the Law” available in anthology yet?
No, but it's $4.99 US on Kindle.
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WoJ says IIRC that Ebenezer's wife -- Margeret LeFay's mother -- was NOT a magical talent... whither Salic Law, hmmm?
his precise answer was,"well... She was mortal. So there's that."
Considering Thomas is "mortal" to mab, we really can't give that any context. That she was not a practitioner is inferred from this, but without any context to what counts as mortal.
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Wizardly "Salic Law" suggests that the mother's line matters for magical talent, not the fathers.
OTOH, that's from unreliable-narrator Harry.
WoJ says IIRC that Ebenezer's wife -- Margeret LeFay's mother -- was NOT a magical talent... whither Salic Law, hmmm?
However as genetic lines go, that doesn't mean that Harry's great grandmother didn't have talent, passed the gene on to Harry's grandmother, who while having no talent herself passed the gene on along with Eb to their daughter, Margaret.
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However as genetic lines go, that doesn't mean that Harry's great grandmother didn't have talent, passed the gene on to Harry's grandmother, who while having no talent herself passed the gene on along with Eb to their daughter, Margaret.
I just think that we -- the fans -- don't really have a solid basis for theorizing about genetic lineages of wizards.
Between Harry being an "unreliable narrator" (which sometimes may include simply being mistaken or ignorant about his info) and Jim Butcher seemingly-intentionally avoiding giving definitive answers, I think "what we can be sure of" in this regard is a vanishingly-small basis for drawing any conclusions, inferences, extrapolations, etc...
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I just think that we -- the fans -- don't really have a solid basis for theorizing about genetic lineages of wizards.
Between Harry being an "unreliable narrator" (which sometimes may include simply being mistaken or ignorant about his info) and Jim Butcher seemingly-intentionally avoiding giving definitive answers, I think "what we can be sure of" in this regard is a vanishingly-small basis for drawing any conclusions, inferences, extrapolations, etc...
Oh I don't disagree with that, often repeated is it is passed though the mother's side of the family, generally. All I pointed out is it is possible for the gene to be carried by the mother, and she, herself, not have talent. There are lots of examples of that in the real world. So just because Harry's grandmother supposedly had no talent herself, that doesn't mean she didn't carry the gene. We can quickly get into the weeds when we start talking dominant/recessive genes, sex linked genes, etc.. Listens To Wind has enough science as well as magical background to explain it, though he hasn't. Harry maybe an unreliable narrator, but in the case of who has and passes the gene on for magical talent, it is a complicated subject. As you say, we just don't know enough to say that Harry is right, wrong, or both.
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... Listens To Wind has enough science as well as magical background to explain it, though he hasn't ...
It is IMO highly-possible that:
- it doesn't actually follow the rules of "science" (it is magic, after all!)
- it follows scientific rules, but magic-power inheritance is subtle/complex enough and hard-enough-to-study (science mixing poorly with magic) that nobody has actually put in the needed time & effort to figure it out
- Jim hasn't actually decided on the rules, because he wants to be free to write characters however he wants/needs, and not have weird early-episode decisions get in the way of the story... or just thinks it doesn't matter.
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Repetition of thought to exclude having to address my reply? Mmm, once was an accident, twice is intentionally. Let's go for three tho, so nobody has to wonder about them pumped up kicks.
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It is IMO highly-possible that:
- it doesn't actually follow the rules of "science" (it is magic, after all!)
- it follows scientific rules, but magic-power inheritance is subtle/complex enough and hard-enough-to-study (science mixing poorly with magic) that nobody has actually put in the needed time & effort to figure it out
- Jim hasn't actually decided on the rules, because he wants to be free to write characters however he wants/needs, and not have weird early-episode decisions get in the way of the story... or just thinks it doesn't matter.
I don't know if in the case of inheritance of talent that it can't both follow science and magic at the same time. It gives Jim perfect freedom, which ever way he chooses or not to explain it. When a young would be wizard or warlock is described, it is said that their talent as awakened,not their magic. Talent is the level of power they were born with, magic is what they learn. I agree that talent is an elusive thing, while it could very well be true that talent/power is passed on by the mother.. The power level of that talent isn't predictable and is complex, lots of potential wizards are born, but truly gifted and powerful wizards are rare. I seem to remember Thomas quoting Harry as he did a simple tracking spell that all humans are born with some talent. Thomas is a complex example, Butters could pull off a magic circle, but I think a tracking spell is a step up. Thomas has never claimed to have much if any talent, though I do think it isn't all that easy to pull off a tracking spell without some talent. We know who his mother was, so you'd think he'd inherit some from her, since he used a spell to kill Margaret, Lord Raith must have talent as well... One has to wonder, just how much talent does Thomas have?
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No, but it's $4.99 US on Kindle.
Many of us (including me) vastly prefer to read, than be read-to.
Spending $5 on a single short already looks like an expensive way to get our Dresden fix... further reducing the value by making it an audio-only format is ... well... it's insult to injury, honestly.
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... Mmm, once was an accident ...
Honestly, it looks like she's just replying to others, not engaging with you.
Based on what you've stated recently elsethread, that seems like the best thing; I advise you to try to avoid further engaging, rather than trying to get her to engage further.
(n.b. I am not a mod. But I note a moderator there has called for cool-down.)
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I don't know if in the case of inheritance of talent that it can't both follow science and magic at the same time...
Sometimes, as Harry tells us, magic has to "do business with" physics (or science, generally).
It's possible there are no "laws of magic" that violate any of the laws of science, insofar as power/talent inheritance goes... It might just be pure genetics, epigenetics, etc.
We *do* know (per WoJ) that magic power can fade, and with it the chance to pass it along. Molly (Charity's firstborn) inherited power from her mother, but (because Charity stopped using her (never strong) power) her younger kids have no such potential.
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Twas happening before my mentioned statement. Specifically to you. 🤔
I'm not a genius, but if ignoring actual conversational hooks(repetitively) unless stated by another is 'disengaging', directly replying to a nonstarter is definitely not.
Unless intentional rudeness is meant by it, I'm not sure where my comment differs except the stressing of the mortal differential. After all, Charity is Mortal too.
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Many of us (including me) vastly prefer to read, than be read-to.
Spending $5 on a single short already looks like an expensive way to get our Dresden fix... further reducing the value by making it an audio-only format is ... well... it's insult to injury, honestly.
It's not audio-only, it's a on book (text) format on kindle, audio on audible.
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It's not audio-only, it's a on book (text) format on kindle, audio on audible.
??!? :o
TYVM, have looked and not seen it.
I obviously need to go look again!
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Sometimes, as Harry tells us, magic has to "do business with" physics (or science, generally).
It's possible there are no "laws of magic" that violate any of the laws of science, insofar as power/talent inheritance goes... It might just be pure genetics, epigenetics, etc.
We *do* know (per WoJ) that magic power can fade, and with it the chance to pass it along. Molly (Charity's firstborn) inherited power from her mother, but (because Charity stopped using her (never strong) power) her younger kids have no such potential.
Yeah, Charity came to mind when I wrote my reply, but since I was writing about talent genes I left her out. Whether her talent faded for lack of use or not, that still doesn't preclude her from carrying it and passing on the gene for talent. I think it very possible that all of Charity's kids inherited talent from their mom, but nothing out of the ordinary, or like their mom they chose not to pursue it. In general though I think that the laws of genetics do apply in inheriting magical talent like most things. However it doesn't explain a lot of things, as in two very ordinary parents can produce a genius and two other very ordinary kids, that's the magical intangibles that still aren't fully understood in fantasy or real life.
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Many of us (including me) vastly prefer to read, than be read-to.
Spending $5 on a single short already looks like an expensive way to get our Dresden fix... further reducing the value by making it an audio-only format is ... well... it's insult to injury, honestly.
My copy is not audio-only. I don't do audio books.
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... I think it very possible that all of Charity's kids inherited talent from their mom, but nothing out of the ordinary, or like their mom they chose not to pursue it...
Word of Jim says otherwise.
None of the younger kids have any power, specifically because Charity was abstaining from magic use.
Now, this still follows "natural" law, the "rule of science:" epigenetics is the study of how genes express, of how environmental/dietary/etc factors alter the expression of genes. It'd be unsurprising if active magic were an epigenetic factor (raising the question of whether just "hanging out with" a very-actively practicing wizard, or having lots of spells cast upon you, could activate latent genes).
But it also doesn't rule out supernatural law(s) that might override "natural law" in some magical way(s).
We don't have any canonical or WoJ info on this, AFAIK.
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None of the younger kids have any power, specifically because Charity was abstaining from magic use.
I haven't seen that, but then I don't keep up with WOJs that much so I take your word on that.
Now, this still follows "natural" law, the "rule of science:" epigenetics is the study of how genes express, of how environmental/dietary/etc factors alter the expression of genes. It'd be unsurprising if active magic were an epigenetic factor (raising the question of whether just "hanging out with" a very-actively practicing wizard, or having lots of spells cast upon you, could activate latent genes).
That's one of the unexplained things in both magic and science. As in how is it that a very gifted child in any field turn up in a very ordinary family with no family history of gifted and talented people, or interest in the field the child is so gifted in.. What is more, two geniuses marry and have children who share none of their parent's gifts. It can get really complicated with exceptions that can prove or disprove almost every rule. So I think Jim is on pretty safe ground no matter how he chooses or has Harry explain it.
But it also doesn't rule out supernatural law(s) that might override "natural law" in some magical way(s).
No, it doesn't, but Harry saying the talent is usually passed down through the female line doesn't dispute either natural law or supernatural law from the information we have gotten so far.
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How do you know it doesn't have a double meaning? Jim might be creative...
lol, I mean. I assume it does but haven't sussed out how, that and woj is we don't know all the details just what Dresden understands from his perspective on this.