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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on July 29, 2020, 02:06:02 AM
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666 Years
So we have the 666 years - every time this happens apparently a certain conjunction happens that puts a magical spotlight on the earth. Any human born in that light has the potential to wield power over the Outsiders. Whether there is a ritual (i'd guess a sort of baptism) required to prepare or lock in the power. The fact it happened on Halloween also seems significant - considering that's one of the few conjunctions that makes immortals mortal (when on earth).
Ebeneezer doesn't explain all the rules but he does say it means Harry can touch them and banish them without being tainted. He is immune. He can even physically hit them and it *somehow* will still actually hurt the being - even if they normally can't feel pain. I would say he even might be able to kill them. I suspect it's related to thaumaturgy (something Harry has always been good at) and the intention that comes with magic. Free will and all that.
But Ebeneezer says the event only lasts a few hours, and it's already happened (hence Harry). Which is interesting considering the previous time it happened, the Black Plague showed up (also when Nicodemus and Tessa last worked together prior to the series).
The Cycle
What this tells us is that following the events of the 666 years conjunction, another event immediately follows. I don't know how many years it takes but Harry was born on 31st of October 1975 (give or take a year or two). So 1975 - 666 gives us the year 1309. This is approximately the birth of the last Starborn. Current candidates include Nicodemus, Mavra, Dracula (not Drakul) and potentially Kincaid. Ancient Mai is actually too young sadly. Funnily enough, potentially Bob (depending on how old you think he is...it's inconsistent) and I know he is a spirit but hey, maybe he came from the head of a starborn.
Anyway, the Black Plague kicks off in Europe around 1346. So 37 odd years later something should happen right?
Wrong. Because the actual timeline of the plague (at least historically) is much older. It goes like this.
3500-3000BC: Neolithic Decline. The plague is potentially the cause of this event.
541-750BC: The "First" Plague pandemic spreads from Egypt to the Mediterranean. Rome suffers the Plague of Justinian (considered to be the same plague). The curiously may also tie into the deaths of the first born in Egypt.
1346-1840: The "Second" plague pandemic may have spread from China due to Mongol destruction. The Black Death kicks off in 1346 to 1353 as is considered the worst pandemic in human history. The fire of London seems to end it the worst of it...but it continues to kill about a billion people from 1347-1665.
1866-1960s: The "Third" plague pandemic (may also have originated in China), results in 2 million deaths there, and then 20 million in India. In the 1940s antibiotics drugs are developed which dramatically reduce the death rate.
It continues until the current day but mostly people only die due to lack of treatment.
So because of the broad stretches of history that the various plagues cover we have to look at the big events.
1. The proto-plague that resulted in Neolithic decline ~3316
2. Plague of Justinian ~652
3. Black Death 1346
4. The Second Plague ~1866
But also around 0-5BC Jesus is born. Funnily enough, under a star....He is crucified approximately 33AD. A big event in the Dresdenverse where apparently many balances of power were reset and the Denarians and the Knights first show up. Possibly Nicodemus also running around. This also plays into the Cycle.
So it seems to me that a final conjunction must occur, a planetary alignment that allows for the re-balancing of the board. I suspect, just like Halloween, it's the only time where things can really change. Hence why everyone is so eager to take advantage of it. However, I also suspect that it also allows the Outsiders to gain some advantage and hence it is also an extremely destructive time. Which is also why so many of those who know are grabbing as much power as they can to defend themselves.
The question then is why hasn't whatever is going to happen yet, happened?
My WAG is that because we don't always have an exact rotation around the Sun or even on our own axis, the math is out. So almost no one is *exactly* sure of when this conjunction will happen but they know it's any day now and are getting their ducks in a row.
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So 1975 - 666 gives us the year 1309. This is approximately the birth of the last Starborn. Current candidates include Nicodemus, Mavra, Dracula (not Drakul) and potentially Kincaid. Ancient Mai is actually too young sadly. Funnily enough, potentially Bob (depending on how old you think he is...it's inconsistent) and I know he is a spirit but hey, maybe he came from the head of a starborn.
Nicodemus definitely wasn't born in 1309... he's something like 2000 years old. He could be Starborn from three cycles ago, ~24 BC, though. The Crucifixion was 29 to 33 AD so Nico would have been in his 50s at the time.
Rashid is quite possibly Starborn from two cycles ago, 643 AD.
Vlad III Dracula (Vlad the Impaler) was born 1431, so too late to be Starborn. Mavra too, since Vlad created the Black Court... someone born in 1309 would have been dead of old age before the Black Court existed to turn them vampire.
Wrong. Because the actual timeline of the plague (at least historically) is much older. It goes like this.
At the time Death Masks was written, the Plague of Justinian wasn't known to have been the same disease as the Black Death. (Wikipedia claims that was discovered/confirmed by DNA in 2013.) And the Neolithic suggestion is even newer (and I don't think anything like proven). So I'm not sure that can be taken as true for the Dresdenverse.
But also around 0-5BC Jesus is born.
Yeah - which doesn't really fit the timeline. The Starborn event should have been ~24 BC.
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Apologies if that wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Nicodemus was born in 1309...just that he could well have been a Starborn as at least one or more where around the time of Christ.
Rashid fits the old profile which we assumed was one every 1000 years. It doesn't fit is having one running around 1000 years before Dresden anymore. Which Jim said was when the last time was once...but he has sort of contradicted himself with the whole 666 thing.
If it's every 666 years then it would be someone born in the late 600s, if it's every thousand years then it's the late 900s. Funnily enough Abdul Alhazred was running around in the 700s and as we know Rashid killed him. So it's possible that Rashid is well over a thousand years old. Closer to 1300 years.
Perhaps there isn't one EVERY 666 years, just the possibility of one. Maybe the last one really was Rashid.
That's Vlad's official birthdate. Could well be older. Mavra was about 600 years old when Harry first met it. I doubt she was the oldest. And the whole Vlad created the Black Court unfortunately is still in dispute. Jim hasn't yet cleared up that point. Because he also says the Black Court have been around since the dawn of man and the Dracula joined them.
True, but Jim might have used the plague (which is fairly well known) anyway. It wouldn't have taken a whole lot of digging.
My math puts the starborn birth actually 23 years after 0. However, I think my theory about things not always being exact accounts for the errors.
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What if nobody can actually keep track of the timing? Time is a tricky thing in the NN, and there are beings there powerful enough to alter its flow.
If your countdown clock is always ticking down, and say it wanders throughout the NN, who's to say when exactly it's gonna hit 0?
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Except that everyone seems to know it's about to happen, and Jim has said for those in the know it feels like the 2 minute warning has gone.
I agree though that it must be difficult to beings who have varying concepts of time.
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Apologies if that wasn't clear. I wasn't saying Nicodemus was born in 1309...just that he could well have been a Starborn as at least one or more where around the time of Christ.
yeah - it's quite possible. If he was one of the first "generation" of Denarians he'd be right about the right age (middle aged at the time of the Crucifixion).
It doesn't fit is having one running around 1000 years before Dresden anymore. Which Jim said was when the last time was once...but he has sort of contradicted himself with the whole 666 thing.
It's not necessarily contradictory - a Starborn could have been born in the 600s and active in the 1000s. Ancient Mai is something like 400 years old, and the Gatekeeper is way older (probably by skipping time).
Perhaps there isn't one EVERY 666 years, just the possibility of one. Maybe the last one really was Rashid.
Possible. Or maybe Starborn who aren't wizards can't really do much with it so the fact that they are starborn is just kind of trivia. Or maybe the Starborn in the 14th century got killed early.
True, but Jim might have used the plague (which is fairly well known) anyway. It wouldn't have taken a whole lot of digging.
Oh, the Plague of Justinian itself was fairly well known, but it wasn't known/confirmed to have been the same disease as the Black Death until pretty recently. So given when Death Masks was published, I think it's still possible for the Dresdenverse that plague was invented from scratch in the 14th century by the Denarians.
My math puts the starborn birth actually 23 years after 0. However, I think my theory about things not always being exact accounts for the errors.
It would be counting back from Harry's birth (~1975) not from today. That's why I got a date about 45 years earlier.
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Mavra is a practitioner. She may have been a practitioner before she was turned, so she could easily have been born early enough.
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I don't think Eb would have said "once in every six hundred and sixty-six years" if it weren't just that. Why be exact with you know it's wrong?
I think the Starborn alignment happens every 666 years. Maybe it fluctuates within the year, but not by years. Months at most, which would allow for the confusion over Elaine.
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I don't think Eb would have said "once in every six hundred and sixty-six years" if it weren't just that. Why be exact with you know it's wrong?
I think the Starborn alignment happens every 666 years. Maybe it fluctuates within the year, but not by years. Months at most, which would allow for the confusion over Elaine.
That's not that exact. The Romans had to add a variable number of days to their calendar to sync it.
In recorded history, we're talking what, 4-5 cycles? It might be very precise- and lame- 666 years, 6 months, 6 days, in the sixth hour, just no one has caught that yet.
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That's not that exact. The Romans had to add a variable number of days to their calendar to sync it.
In recorded history, we're talking what, 4-5 cycles? It might be very precise- and lame- 666 years, 6 months, 6 days, in the sixth hour, just no one has caught that yet.
Sure, but you're still talking about a variation of months between alignments, and a collective variation of 3.5 years across all of recorded history (4,820 years or so).
So it's not like it could easily fudge from 23 BC to 0 AD (or even 4-6 BC, as some theorize for timing on TWC's birth year).
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Your cast of possible Starborn doesn’t include Etienne the Enchanter, who was Bob’s first master and made the sanctum he lives in , and who lived in the Middle Ages making him a candidate for 1309 and would give Bob handy info on the Starborn Schtick (seriously someone must have messed with Harry’s mind not to make him inquire about this) which would be very useful for Justin if he was hunting Starborn.
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Observations of the night sky with fairly primitives tools can give some fairly exact times, and Eb owns a telescope. Maybe some kind of planetary or stellar alignment thing or a supernova.
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1 thing you all need to consider that was kinda mentioned about the Romans balancing their calendar, and that is that the calendars have changed over time. Currently there is the world-wide New Year and the Chinese New Year just to name one example. Its not as simple to take 2020 and subtract 2000 years and get year 20. Yeah it'll probably be close, but not exact so that could account for some of the minor errors.
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1 thing you all need to consider that was kinda mentioned about the Romans balancing their calendar, and that is that the calendars have changed over time.
Sure, but not nearly enough to account for a 20 year gap. Especially not in the last 2000 years - the Julian calendar was instituted by Julius Caesar and I think even in Russia (one of the last to change to the Gregorian calendar) it was less than a month change.
So that's still not going to allow for Jesus to be Starborn.
I don't really think that makes sense anyway honestly. I think the Defenders of Reality* vs Outsiders conflict is kind of operating on a different level from the Heaven vs Hell conflict, and Starborn are basically part of the former, not the latter.
*currently that's Winter (with a little help from the White Council in the form of the Gatekeeper), but it has been different beings in the past...
I mean, Uriel is many orders of magnitude stronger than Mab, he could destroy galaxies. If it was part of his job, he could just vaporize the entire Outsider army beyond the Gates with a thought, no Winter needed.... but that's not his job. His job is about Souls/Free Will and the whole spectrum of the multiverse, the Faerie are more about Reality (and Nature) of a specific universe.
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It is clear there are multiple long term conflicts which are ongoing, the Outsiders, Heaven v Hell and the Oblivion War, and it is quite possible for someone to be a participant in more than one of them at the same time.
Jesus isn’t Starborn he was literally part of the White God, that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a Starborn involved, if they are Wizards who are long lived and cheat.
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It is clear there are multiple long term conflicts which are ongoing, the Outsiders, Heaven v Hell and the Oblivion War, and it is quite possible for someone to be a participant in more than one of them at the same time.
Jesus isn’t Starborn he was literally part of the White God, that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a Starborn involved, if they are Wizards who are long lived and cheat.
idk, he was literally born under a star. I'd think it fair to say if TWG planned his life out, he planned his birth to be most opportune.
Starborn seems to be 'wizards business' per River Shoulders.
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It is clear there are multiple long term conflicts which are ongoing, the Outsiders, Heaven v Hell and the Oblivion War, and it is quite possible for someone to be a participant in more than one of them at the same time.
Sure. It's more that I think Nemesis is operating on a far smaller scale than the Heaven vs. Hell conflict.
Nemesis is probably more on the level of the Walkers or below, agents of the Outside fighting a war against the defenders of the universe led by Mab - but that is I think a conflict for the fate of one particular universe.
The Angels/Fallen and Archangels/Lucifer are working across the multiverse spectrum of realities (though the Denarians in the coins might be limited to just one universe - I don't know how that works)
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If it was part of his job, he could just vaporize the entire Outsider army beyond the Gates with a thought.
I'm not convinced. I've always taken it as universes get destroyed because the Outsider army breaches the Gates and Team Heaven's only option is to destroy that universe to prevent something worse, like a foothold from which they could bridge from the Inside of one universe to the next much like is going to happen in Mirror, Mirror.
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I'm not convinced. I've always taken it as universes get destroyed because the Outsider army breaches the Gates and Team Heaven's only option is to destroy that universe to prevent something worse, like a foothold from which they could bridge from the Inside of one universe to the next much like is going to happen in Mirror, Mirror.
this is my interpretation as well, and since Uriel basically insures free will, insures choice, he's basically the gardener of the life tree to me, with each reality spun off as another branch while he prunes those that go dead.
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Ok so I've spotted a huge flaw in this cycle being 666 years... Woj is Rashid was Harry the last cycle... But Rashid is waaay older than that. Mostly due to staying in the NN, he's the oldest council member, maybe even technically the oldest human alive. How can the cycle be 666 if Rashid is at least older than the Mad Arab?
Also looking up astrological cycles I found "At one degree per 66 years, one decan of a zodiacal sign (i.e. 10 degrees) is precessed in a period of 666 years - a value made famous in the Book of Revelation as the Number of the Beast" so perhaps it's just a degree of a cycle and not the cycle itself?
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Do we know Heaven has anything to do with destroying "lost" universes?
But anyway, the Winter Fae go Outside and fight them. Uriel's vastly stronger than Mab, much less random Sidhe soldiers.
Ok so I've spotted a huge flaw in this cycle being 666 years... Woj is Rashid was Harry the last cycle... But Rashid is waaay older than that.
I think Rashid is two cycles ago... born in the 7th century, and took down Alhazred in the 8th.
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Do we know Heaven has anything to do with destroying "lost" universes?
No. I just think Jim's implied it.
But anyway, the Winter Fae go Outside and fight them. Uriel's vastly stronger than Mab, much less random Sidhe soldiers.
Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.
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We continuously hear how powerful Uriel is but that power is beyond a point almost meaningless. What is important is what he can do with that power. What he is allowed to do. What his duties are. He has enough power to do that.
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No. I just think Jim's implied it.
Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.
yeah, all of creation is in balance with the outside. Inside creates its own balance with itself to keep outside, outside
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No. I just think Jim's implied it.
In the books, or in a WoJ? Can you point me to something? That would be interesting to see.
Mab's way stronger than a random Summer Fae soldier, but she's balanced by Titania. I think something similar is going on with Creation vs. Outside.
Could be, but I kind of doubt it.
IIRC the thing where only mortals can summon Outsiders has to do with mortal Free Will, kind of like being invited into a threshold.
I think Mab and Winter are strong enough to counter any direct forces the Outsiders can bring against the Outer Gates, essentially by definition -- that is the purpose of their power.
The reason the Outsiders are still a big deal to beings vastly beyond Mab (like angels and fallen angels) is because they can't counter the Mortal Free Will side of things.
We continuously hear how powerful Uriel is but that power is beyond a point almost meaningless. What is important is what he can do with that power. What he is allowed to do. What his duties are. He has enough power to do that.
Yeah, exactly. Uriel isn't allowed to go disintegrate all the Outsiders, so he can't. But I don't think there are any Outsiders on the level of angels/archangels, or even the Faerie Mothers, or they'd just smash right through Winter's army at the Gates.
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Yeah, exactly. Uriel isn't allowed to go disintegrate all the Outsiders, so he can't. But I don't think there are any Outsiders on the level of angels/archangels, or even the Faerie Mothers, or they'd just smash right through Winter's army at the Gates.
In the case that there were, though, perhaps Creation needs someone with good eyes keeping a lookout, someone that could summon aid. Sounds like a good job for a Gatekeeper to me.
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In the books, or in a WoJ? Can you point me to something? That would be interesting to see.
I couldn't find anything. I think there was something about Harry would be upset with Uriel if he knew what Uriel had done.
There is one WoJ about Outsiders looking a particular way based on which universe they're trying to get into. This leads me to believe that there's only one Outside.
I don't see what summoning has to do with defeating all the Outsiders at the Gates.
I just think Jim is big on balance between opposing forces, and not just with the Faerie Courts.
I don't think there's even a clear leaning as to what's actually going on between Creation and Outside. I don't think this is even something that ever has to be answered for Jim to tell a full and complete story, so I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer.
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I couldn't find anything. I think there was something about Harry would be upset with Uriel if he knew what Uriel had done.
Wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't Bob say he was responsible for the Plague of the Death of the Firstborn? Uriel's "on the side of the angels" (heh) cosmically, but he's a scary guy.
There is one WoJ about Outsiders looking a particular way based on which universe they're trying to get into. This leads me to believe that there's only one Outside.
I agree. I think it's been said that parallel universes or whatever (the universes making up the multiverse) are connected through the Nevernever.
So yeah I think there's just one Outside, beyond the Nevernever.
I don't see what summoning has to do with defeating all the Outsiders at the Gates.
I just meant that since we see a bunch of Outsiders in the mortal world in CD, a real victory for the Outsiders has to be more than just getting some troops through the Gates. Because the presence of a bunch of Outsiders led by He-Who-Walks-Before didn't really mess up reality noticeably.
I don't know if it's a matter of a "critical mass" of Outsiders needed within reality to destroy it (override it by their alien nature?) or if there's some specific thing they have to do to win... but I think there's something.
I don't think this is even something that ever has to be answered for Jim to tell a full and complete story, so I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer.
Maybe not all the background details, but I think we'll know a lot more.
The last book title is planned to be "Empty Night" which Mother Summer uses in CD to describe an Outsider victory.
So I imagine the BAT will end with Outsiders breaking into reality and Harry will have to lead the defense of Reality and do some kind of Starborn thing to kick them back out, or imprison them in Demonreach, or something.
(Mab says at one point "the stars will fall from the sky when Mab keeps not her word" or something to that effect. I'm sort of thinking Mab will be forced to break her word in some way, which will weaken her to the point where she is killed and her Mantle destroyed. Winter falls and the Outsiders break in, and the BAT kicks off.)
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I'd like to think so too. Pretty sure Jim said as much concerning the outside, but that they manifest differently depending upon the reality. Imo because different things exist to reflect or different things have been destroyed for them to manifest as.
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I think it's been said that parallel universes or whatever (the universes making up the multiverse) are connected through the Nevernever.
Jim's often said, or strongly implied, that you can get to Tavi's world (or whatever) in the Nevernever. I've never heard him say anything about how one gets to a parallel universe. I'm of no opinion on how one travels to parallel universes. We'll get something in 2022, hopefully.
I just meant that since we see a bunch of Outsiders in the mortal world in CD, a real victory for the Outsiders has to be more than just getting some troops through the Gates. Because the presence of a bunch of Outsiders led by He-Who-Walks-Before didn't really mess up reality noticeably.
I don't know if it's a matter of a "critical mass" of Outsiders needed within reality to destroy it (override it by their alien nature?) or if there's some specific thing they have to do to win... but I think there's something.
Yeah. It might just be wrecking up the place so much that the Gates can't be defended, or it's just easier to destroy the place from the inside.
Maybe not all the background details, but I think we'll know a lot more.
I agree. Some things will be pretty clear, and some things will be argued over (including the pretty clear stuff ;)) for as long as people like us are reading his books.
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Not sure what year the Dresdenverse is currently in, 2020 or 2019? But 666 years ago was 1354 A.D.
Doing at little research about the Black Plague, I found it petered out in Europe around 1353 - 1354 A.D. Now the plague went back into China in the 1350's but the White Council was probably a very European-centric organization back then. It's likely that in the Dresdenverse, Nicodemus and company had a hand in getting the plague really going so my guess is that a Starborn wizard of that era helped bring Nic's larger plans; whatever they were, to an end. Everything that I've read about the Black Death tells me that it shook European civilization (such as it was) and its major institutions; especially the Catholic Church, to its core. So Nic might be credited with a major tactical victory, but his larger goals were probably even more destructive, if such a thing was possible.
This would also mean that the 1354 Starborn wizard was likely working with one or more of the KotC of that time.
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Not sure what year the Dresdenverse is currently in, 2020 or 2019? But 666 years ago was 1354 A.D.
Probably 2013-2015 or so. The RL publication gap isn't reflected in the in-books timeline.
The timeline on the website suggests 1999 for SF, in which case PT/BG are 2013.
I tend to think a year or two later, as in SF the end of the millennium is referred to as a past event.
So that pushes it back 5-7 years so the beginning of the Black Death fits better, IMO.
So Nic might be credited with a major tactical victory, but his larger goals were probably even more destructive, if such a thing was possible.
Given how the Denarians are apparently empowered by pain and suffering, and just how enormous the toll was (something like a third of Europe's total population, more in some countries), that might have been a 100% victory for Nic; I don't see any reason to think he was necessarily stopped from completely achieving his goals in that instance. As Nic says in SmF, it's not all about bringing about the capital-A Apocalypse.
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I did the math on this wrong and in correcting my mistake I think I've found a possible parallel between Harry and the previous Starborn wizard. If the previous Starborn wizard was born 666 years before Harry was born I have to subtract 666 years from when Harry was born, not 666 years from the current date in the Dresdenverse. According to the official Dresden Files timeline Harry was born 26 years before the events in Storm Front. That's probably Oct. 31 1974 or 1975. So, that would mean the previous Starborn wizard was born in 1308 or 1309 A.D.
This is well before the Black Death hits Europe. It first enters Italy in 1347 and ravages Europe for about nine or ten years. So that Starborn wizard was around 38 or 39 years old at that time. This must be when Nicodemus made a major power move. Did Nicodemus spread the Black Death around 2/3 of the world simply to create despair, to bring on the apocalyptic mind state or did he believe he was "saving the world," as Dierdre put it, from an even greater Outsider threat? My guess is the earlier Starborn wizard was dealing with an Outsider threat at the same time. This person was able to defeat the Outsiders but not before Nicodemus got involved.
We know there is a disease; known only as Wormwood, which is being held by Mother Summer. Harry knows too, but right know he's facing a more immediate threat and will likely face others. Even if Harry defeats the last Titan that doesn't mean he's stopped the Outsiders. We can guess that Harry will one day have to face off against HWWB. I don't know if a direct one on one confrontation with Nemesis is possible. Maybe it can't be killed, who knows? But at some point Nicodemus will comeback and he will have a plan when he does so. Nic's plan will go way beyond getting revenge against Harry, Marcone or Mab, though that will probably be a part of it. I think Nicodemus is going to try to save the world from the Outsider threat by killing everyone on it, with Wormwood.
So the question is, "Will Harry be able to do better than the previous Starborn wizard, who defeated that Outsider threat, but at the cost of allowing Nicodemus to kill between 1/3 and 1/2 of the population of Europe?"
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We know there is a disease; known only as Wormwood, which is being held by Mother Summer. Harry knows too, but right know he's facing a more immediate threat and will likely face others. Even if Harry defeats the last Titan that doesn't mean he's stopped the Outsiders. We can guess that Harry will one day have to face off against HWWB. I don't know if a direct one on one confrontation with Nemesis is possible. Maybe it can't be killed, who knows? But at some point Nicodemus will comeback and he will have a plan when he does so. Nic's plan will go way beyond getting revenge against Harry, Marcone or Mab, though that will probably be a part of it. I think Nicodemus is going to try to save the world from the Outsider threat by killing everyone on it, with Wormwood.
Still holding out hope for HWWB to be the final straight up fight of the series (with something else as the overarching threat).
And Nicodemus successfully breaking out one of those plagues with the grail would explain why there was a scene showing that she has the plagues lying there at all.