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Messages - solbergb

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91
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 04:25:21 PM »
I'll go with reduction to absurdity here.  Shapeshifting is a free action or a supplemental action, rarely a full exchange (mistform, modular shape).  Talking is a free action.

If we're going to only allow blocks on those four actions you are saying there is no way to prevent an opponent from screaming for help, short of taking them out.   Where obviously you could do it with might (covering their mouth with your hand), rapport (asking them to stay quiet while you talk), intimidate (stay quiet if you want to live) and all sorts of flavors of magic (blocking sound, pulling air from lungs, etc)

92
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 04:07:50 PM »
Just a couple other points.  In a "Non conflict" situation a "block" is merely a "contest" if it's set up by active opposition or a "simple action to overcome" if it is already there in the scene.

In a "Extended Contest" a "block" is just part of the opposed rolls, with flavor being to impede you instead of to advance the cause of the NPC.  It just adds shifts to the enemy overall total for success.   This can be a consequential conflict, which raises the stakes a bit (eg, bypassing the crowd contest difficulty set by the opposition with intimidation, athletics or might could cause a minor social consequence, where dealing with it via a "softer" social skill might not)

Blocks as actual blocks defined are only in "Conflicts" (YS 199, bolding is mine)



Quote
Block (YS199): Roll to set up a preemptive defense
against a specified future action; anyone
committing that named action will have to roll
against the block to succeed (page 210).

Quote
YS210
To perform a block, declare what specific type
of action the block is intended to prevent and
roll an appropriate skill. The total of that roll is
called the block strength.

Action:  Shapeshift out of human form
Appropriate Skill:  Presence (keep somebody important focused on interacting with the shapeshifter),  Rapport (make the person prefer human form because an attractive person is making you feel good about your appearance),  Intimidate (threaten to hurt them or somebody they care about if they change),  Discipline+evocation (use mind magic to lock down their ability to shapeshift), lore(complexity)+thaumaturgy (skill-like ability to block shapeshift, requires connection to the target + ritual)


Quote
During the exchange,
any time a character wants to perform the action
that’s covered by the block, he must roll against
the block and meet or exceed the block strength
to be able to perform that action.

Examples of what to roll against the block in above examples:  Deceit (distract the individual watching you), Discipline (ignore your hormones and shift), various social defenses (discipline to work through the fear, or in case of threat to others, you might counter-intimidate or invoke contacts or something to defuse the threat), Discipline (mental defense against evocation), Discipline (mental defense) or maybe Lore (to break the connection or find a loophole in the thaumaturgy)



Quote
When you create
a block, the block has to be specific and clear in
two ways: who it’s intended to affect, and what
types of action (attack, block, maneuver, move)
it’s trying to prevent. Generally speaking, if the
block can affect more than one person, it can
only prevent one type of action. If the block only
affects one person, it can prevent several types of
action—up to all of them—as context permits.
You can’t use a block to prevent someone from
making a defense roll.

Given that you can clearly block other supplemental or free actions (you can prevent people from speaking, drawing a weapon, etc), shapeshift shouldn't be any different.  It certainly is specific enough.

An area block against shapeshift is unlikely to work, but isn't impossible (indeed Dresden did exactly that when he dispelled the magic of the lycanthropes when they were trying to gather it in one scene of the 2nd book).   Certainly intimidate might get it done.

Quote
Keep in mind that there are some blocks that
just won’t work in some situations. (Trying the
“keep them pinned down with gunfire” trick on
a loup-garou isn’t going to really help you much,
given that they’re immune to bullets.)
This covers the "fly over walls, shapeshift into mist, Molly leaves an image while sneaking off, you aren't actually a vampire so brandishing a cross doesn't matter" situations.  No rolling, the block just won't work against the technique used to ignore it.

You'll note there is nothing that says anything about a block against a "roll".  It is against an action.  Likewise it says nothing about what skill is used to defeat a block.  It depends on the nature of the block and yes, a block against shapeshift (or anything else) the player trying to overcome the block gets total freedom on how to get out of it...but his solution must make sense to the table, preferably improving the story.

Just think about how many skills and powers can be used to bypass a wall, and how different a set of skills and powers might bypass a crowd on a dance floor.  The consequences of some approaches might be permanent (destroying the wall or using an explosion to clear the dance floor) and might cause aspect-compels or long term consequences.







93
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 03:40:23 PM »
Movement might not be a skill, but it IS a trapping.  Of Athletics.

If you want to overcome a block against movement by making an Intimidate roll, all you have to do is explain how you're using Intimidate to move.


Same way you use might to ignore a wall by blowing through it.  Athletics has a trapping jump (over an obstacle), climb(over an obstacle), dodge (through an obstacle such as covering fire), and move MORE THAN ONE ZONE (everyone can move one zone) via sprinting.  Might, by contrast has a trapping to move other things (the obstacle) which has the side benefit of eliminating the obstacle for everybody else, or yourself on later exchanges.   If the object is fragile enough, some attacks might do the equivalent of Might (eg, Shoot combined with a rocket launcher, or high shift evocations with discipline)

Moving is not Athletics.  Moving is moving.  Moving more than one zone is athletics.  Athletics only helps against a block if you can climb it, jump over it or dodge it.

I think we all agree Intimidate doesn't get you past a physical wall.

Athletics could get you past a crowd-type block set up with Rapport, by dodging through the crowd or jumping over it.  Aspects get involved only to make athletics a choice you can't use for some reason (secret identity, or fleeing reporters instead of answering them causing undesirable social consequences).   

For a crowd-type obstacle, Might or high shift evocations are only useful if you don't care about hurting them.  Intimidate, Deceit and Presence have trappings explicitly appropriate (Brush Off, Creating a Distraction, Command).   Resources (Money Talks), Contacts (Knowing People) and Perform (Playing to an Audience) could also work to either bypass the obstacle (just for you) or destroy it (dispersing the crowd) depending on the exact skill involved and the way the block was set up in the first place (reporters demanding answers is different from fans wanting autographs is different from peasants with pitchforks and torches).  Rapport, by contrast, would probably require setting up a maneuver (First Impressions - Crowd is helpful) and invoking it, because it lacks a specific trapping clearly appropriate to the obstacle.


94
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 03:26:23 PM »
What he's saying is this:

A block will impede a roll.

Shapeshifting doesn't require a roll, therefore, it can't be blocked.


And I'm saying he's completely misunderstanding Block.  Block impedes an ACTION not a ROLL.

There is no "roll" in moving between zones that lack terrain features between them that your character sheet can't automatically overcome (things with legs can walk across a parking lot, things with wings can fly over fences, aquatic creatures can cross a river).  There is no "roll" in shapeshift either.  Both, however are actions and thus can be blocked.

The blocking mechanism requires a skill roll of some kind, and it has to make sense given the situation (who are you blocking, how are you blocking them).  You don't need powers to block.  All evocation does is vastly increase the ease of having it "make sense" to block actions, because it is so flexible.  (A rapport/crowd block on movement requires a crowd handy.  a conviction/cross block on movement requires the target to have faith-based catch.  A wall of thorns block on movement requires the target not have supernatural toughness or be a swarm or have flight)

95
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 03:14:03 PM »
to quote "Your Story" a block is a block is a block.

A wall of fire or a hail of gunfire can block movement just as readily as force field or Evard's Black Tentacles.

What makes it irrelevant to you, and what skill can overcome it depends on the special effect (Might doesn't help on a wall of fire or gunfire, but does help to defeat a force field or tentacles.)

Your definition doesn't track with the actual examples in the rules.  All a block does is set an obstacle on the scene, just as the GM does when he puts in a terrain feature between zones. (in the case of movement)

"movement" is not a skill any more than "shapeshift" is.   A crowd of reporters attracted by a contacts roll is just as much a block as a magically created stone wall, both prevent you from leaving a zone.  The skills to overcome them are different, and whether or not you destroy the block (allow others to ignore it, or allow you to ignore it on later phases) depend on whether you, say, blew a hole through the wall to get past it (wall is gone, for you and everybody else), jumped over it (defeated difficulty with athletics, but if you want to come back you have to do it again), or flew over it (the wall never matters to you, but matters to others in the scene)

Flight is just a power.  It explicitly ignores blocks and zone barriers where flight would help.  That is in fact all flight does, mechanically.  (Aquatic, Mistform, Spirit form are written the same way.  No declarations or invocations required).

Invoking aspects is a different way to overcome a block.  Fate nearly always gives you the option of invoking aspects OR working with the skill system.   Aspects tend to either give success or failure, although sometimes they merely modify skill rolls, skills (and extras like the DFRPG Supernatural powers) don't require fate points most of the time but need to make sense in the situation and defeat the difficulties set.

96
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 02:40:14 PM »
>The only actions which cannot overcome a block are the actions that are not impeded by the block.

True, bypassing a block instead of overcoming it doesn't destroy the block.  It can make it irrelevant though.  I also think you are vastly underestimating the ways a block can be overcome.  The action is "to move" if the block is "against movement".  The skill used "to move" depends on the nature of the block.

So in my example above (Rapport block against movement) you could destroy the block with something like Intimidate (make the bystanders back off), Rapport (explain you're in a hurry without offending them), Presence (have the crowd move with you in an organized way, or somehow get them to cooperate based on who you are) or Deceit (create a distraction that is more interesting to the crowd than you).  Even Perform might get it done under some circumstances (moving through a dance floor, weaving the crowd into your performance and disrupting the block).  Resources too under some circumstances (toss money into a crowd of beggars, briefly dispersing them).  Contacts might allow someone in the crowd to rescue you with their own social skills.

Or if you were Molly you could leave an image of yourself to engage with the crowd while sneaking off under a veil.  The block's still there (crowd of people interested in image-Molly) but Molly bypassed it without destroying it, because she rendered it irrelevant to "invisible Molly".


All of the above assumes some kind of aspect where you care what the crowd thinks, and your reputation.  That kind of block on a Ghoul might be a discipline check to avoid feeding on the crowd instead of moving, for example, because of its Insatiable Hunger aspect instead of, say, Murphy's police lieutenant aspect vs a crowd of reporters.   A lot of blocks seem to tie into either scene aspects or personal aspects, and I'm not clear on whether they must be tagged/invoked to set up the block.  I think the way it works is a true compel gives the individual a fate point for automatically failing to move, where setting up a block doesn't use the fate economy but instead allows a chance to succeed, against an obstacle set by the block.

A more mundane example....critters bypass the zonewide version if Harry's shield spell all the time by going around or over it.  The shield spell is still there, blocking anyone else from moving through it, but it doesn't stop a critter that can fly over it from menacing those behind it.  If Harry explicitly makes it a bubble to prevent such tricks, then his own people are also affected by the block, or not protected by the block.

More typically Harry's shield is only a block against attacks, and doesn't impede movement of the enemy at all.  Either way though, the method to bring down the block is generally to attack it with sufficient force (might, or a physical attack of some kind) even though in one case it is blocking movement and in the other it is blocking attacks.   It's still a wall of magical force.  The means of defeating it are usually the same regardless of what you're blocking with it.   Harry's hand got burned when Mavra bypassed it with pure heat...the block was not overcome, it was irrelevant to Harry because his hand had to be close to the wall, but everybody else was safe, because the napalm that contained the heat was blocked successfully.  When Harry redefined the shield to include heat energy (he is, after all, a master of Fire as well as Spirit), it still had some gaps in the coverage to other exotic attacks because it is defined as a shield of force (eg, it won't help if the ground reaches up to grab him, or somebody sucks all the air out of the area of he has not explicitly set it up as a bubble).


97
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 01:29:04 PM »
Blocks impede actions.

Shapeshifting is an action.  It can be blocked.

The die roll to overcome the block depends on the specifics of how the block is set up.

Eg, blocking movement with athletics usually requires athletics to overcome, but shapeshifting into mist will also do it without a roll.  Blocking movement with a wall of force likely requires might to overcome normally, but someone immune to magic might just walk through it. Blocking movement with Rapport to have a crowd of bystanders become very interested in you generally requires a social skill to defeat, assuming you care about your reputation in that situation...if you don't you can just push past them.  Nothing I said in my above post is a houserule.  A social block is shorthand a block set up because of the social situation, and usually requires a social skill to overcome it's meaningless if you don't care about that in the current scene.

With respect to a catch, it could set up a situation where an unusual skill allows a block, as Conviction can block a Red Court vampire when combined with a symbol of your faith.   It could also make a block automatically effective for an exchange, by compelling the high concept, via the fate point economy or free tags from prior declarations or assessments.   Usually though, presenting a critter with its catch makes it harder to stay in HUMAN form, their human guise slips if they fail discipline.

98
DFRPG / Re: Blocks versus Shapeshifters
« on: August 05, 2014, 02:53:13 AM »
Mental or social blocks seem like they'd be more likely to work than physical ones.  That helps with the die roll issue...to overcome the block you need to use the right skills.

"Your muggle boss is looking right at you.  You probably don't want to Ghoul Out right now...."
(deception to create a distraction could overcome this block - as no supplemental action is needed to activate the SU powers no -1, but and hopefully your boss won't recognize the tie the slavering monster now present is wearing your tie).  This is a block.  The ghoul is free to do anything except turn into a ghoul, and it takes some kind of social skill to keep the muggle's attention on the ghoul to sustain the block.

Or you know...you want to remain in human form because you're all overcome by lust for that white court vampire that just ran his finger down your cheek...(this would normally be discipline, and if you want to shift into a potted plant that would be unlikely to be affected by lust powers in the same round, you'd need to take a -1).    This is more likely a maneuver given how the incite emotion powers work (they don't normally allow blocks) to put something like "humanity feels SO good" and use the free tag to compel against shifting.

99
I'd agree that the "fate point to buy off compel" situation would result in a jury-rigged result, or take more time than usual or something.  But for story purposes it'll work well enough, and really you should be providing an in-character reason for why you can do it (as my "I help my wife with the blacksmithing" example of Michael Carpenter buying off the compel with a fate point)  The later need to do it "right" will happen off-camera, or it'll become a running joke (like Harry's failed attempt to re-hang his steel door).

The person with high craft who did want to "do it all" would undoubtedly have some aspect that supported that (eg, I'm 2000 years old, I've studied a bit of everything...might be compelled to hint he's out of date, with option for fate point spent against the compel to indicate that he's actually kept up in that field)).   Or say, someone who wanted to speak a lot more languages than one per point of scholarship might have a "gift of tongues" aspect to invoke for effect if there's any doubt she can speak a given tongue (you make it part of your story....or you harvest a fate point to explain why this particular language is NOT one you speak)

100
DFRPG / Re: Law Talk
« on: August 03, 2014, 01:28:58 PM »
The lawbreaking feats leave a mark that can be detected via Sight and Soulgaze, which shows who can be decapitated and who can not.  The use of magic to break the laws actually turns on the person doing it, reducing their free will until eventually they're raving lunatics that are unable to do anything but behave that way.  The aspects they create are double-edged, as are all aspects.  Getting lawbreaker 1 makes you better at killing, and worse at any other option. 

In the case of Killing, physical and mental transformation, and outsiders, it's pretty obvious who would provide the "you're better at it" part and who would provide the "and you become incapable of keeping it subtle, so you get caught/executed/self-destruct" part.  The time travel and invading minds part is more problematic, but both are impossible to prove without leaving some traces and for all we know there are adversaries trying to spin off alternate realities and I'd say the Oblivion wars provide enough on both sides to result in the mind-reading lawbreaking.   The unknowns are why I find it interesting as a plot point.  If you assume, say, Denarians are working to encourage more killing with magic and Knights of the Cross & their boss are trying to reduce killing with magic, and the extension works pretty well with known groups for several laws, then you get interested in the remaining laws and discovering the truth behind it is a whole campaign worth of story.

101
DFRPG / Re: Law Talk
« on: August 03, 2014, 03:27:23 AM »
I lean toward the idea that the First, Second and Fourth are about free will, and probably necromancy too...it's the part that enslaves souls that seems problematic.   The time travel, outer gates are more likely about not destroying the universe even when it's tempting to solve problems that way.   Invading thoughts might be a free will thing, or might be more of the "wizards really like privacy" along the lines of "It's bad luck to kill wizards, and we invented a death curse technique we teach even apprentices just to drive that home".

Of course I also have a theory that the lawbreaking powers in DFRPG are enforced by various factions in the universe, with the divine/diabolic covering the free-will side of the equation, the enemies of outsiders (for spoiler reasons I won't be more specific) enforcing that law and maybe the white council itself running massive rituals to enforce the third law, plus time travel.   But I could be completely wrong :)  It's an idea I'd be likely to play with if I was running a DFRPG game, until JB's future books illuminate more of the cosmos.

It's ok to deprive mortals of free will with stuff entirely made by mortals.  Shoot a mortal with a gun made by mortals and all the decisions that went into ending that mortal's life were pretty much a sum of all choices made.  Things get fuzzier when a Renfield shoots a mortal or when a conjured sword slashes a throat, but I see this as a limitation of those enforcing the laws of magic more than the principle of the thing.  At some point it becomes an act of will to use magic to deprive a mortal of free will and the "enforcers" punish/reward the practitioner with a permanent change in their own ability to make choices.   You become more like the Fey, unable to act except according to your "nature" instead of having the full range of free will you had before.

102
Yeah.  Although it's unusual not to have something in the aspects related to your highest skills.

Eg, my Master Contractor who's about 60 and actually can do damn near anything related to maintaining or building a house might have a 4-5 craft and no aspects other than his high concept.   He'd have more trouble repairing a car than hanging drywall or installing plumbing, but he could actually probably figure it out, it'd just take longer and maybe require tools and information (eg, repair manual for that model) that he wouldn't have normally.

If the GM compelled his Master Contractor to make him unable to craft something not-house-related he'd spend a fate point and buy it off if he really wanted to repair a car, or take the fate point if he was willing to essentially say "I could, but I don't have the tools or the manual".


103
DFRPG / Re: Hunger Stress Question
« on: August 01, 2014, 12:19:36 AM »
Nothing like listening to the audio-books again while geeking about two new DFRPG characters over the past couple weeks to make you connect the dots between game mechanics and the setting.   Dresden hangs on to mental consequences a really long time because he hates going to his friends for therapy and can't afford a professional and Murphy really is bad at social conflict other than intimidation and is in a constant battle to keep her job because of it, a battle which she eventually loses.   Murphy does end up in the hospital at times, and the Nightmare did a number on her mentally but neither were as hard on her as the political stuff, which she never really gets on top of until she changes her high concept.

If you think about it that SI punk who joined internal affairs was the one who defeated Murphy, where all the monsters in the Red Court could not.  Transformed her as surely as the red court did Susan.

Physical...a scene with Butters (or more rarely a magical talent like Elaine) and you're good to go, you start healing.  Although as Butters developed as a character, the price of a session with him is that he'll start pumping you for information, criticizing your life choices or being suspicious of you, which has risks of healing physical while inflicting other types of harm if you don't handle it right.

104
DFRPG / Re: Play Report - Ray of Sunshine Campaign
« on: July 31, 2014, 08:20:58 PM »
While as a rule I'm kind of down with the Fate Core idea that 5 aspects is plenty to keep track of what with consequences, scene stuff, declarations etc etc, I do like how you can influence the entire campaign by reskinning the aspects, and the extra aspects in Dresden Files makes that easier to do.

The Dresden Files guest star stuff is intended to give the characters solid reasons to work together in the opening of the campaign (and some of them will likely shift around after milestones and play give new emphasis to the character).    If your players are already tied together pretty well, or for smaller groups, using the extra guest star to set the campaign tone seems kind of awesome.

One thing I noticed in the sample adventures Neutral Grounds and Night fears was every stock character shared an aspect (Neutral Grounds Regular or Not a Kid Anymore....I especially liked the last one for a haunted house mystery with 14 year olds...) which gave them a reason to be involved and a stake in the adventure.  I did something like that in my own Codex Alera-Fate variant playtest had all of the players with various Academ Cursor Trainee type aspects, with flavor tied to "what kind of a spy are you....eg, Sexy Spy, Sneaky Spy, Genius Spy etc"

In any campaign where the characters have a common theme of some kind it's a pretty powerful technique - this was always something we struggled with in our Champions campaigns, because the genre has a lot of solo heroes but tabletop RPG is always a "Team Up" kind of "comic".

An aspect indicates a member, but you have a life, high concept means it really is your life (eg, Hawkeye has an "Actually an Avenger but they Hate to Admit It" aspect in his current run, where  Professor X has "Telepathic X-Men Mentor" in his high concept).

Kinda nice actually, and makes it really clear when an outsider gets involved.  Team aspects can be invoked, compelled all kinds of ways.

The secret hope for each character as a complement to the Trouble aspect is pretty unique though.  Very creative.  I will steal shamelessly if I run Fate again and my campaign world needs a little extra zing.


105
DFRPG / Re: Hunger Stress Question
« on: July 31, 2014, 03:18:44 PM »
There is another kind of perverse thing about the dresdenverse that works fairly well with consequence mechanics.

Supernatural healing of various kinds is fairly common, even Harry gets healed from time to time although he lacks such resources himself for most of the series.

But nobody easily comes back from mental or social consequences.  You need a therapist and time.  Harry started dealing with the consequences of picking up a Denarian coin only after he talked to Georgia and Will about the situation...until then it was bottled up inside and not even beginning to heal (she was basically pushing him to feel angry about every little slight and push his magic with rage and thus hellfire all through the prior book and that book).   Then Harry starts working it down and eventually turns Lash into a kind of an asset (likely an aspect for a while, once the consequence went away).  He needed to given he'd filled his extreme consequence with his roasted hand and his moderate with "Fear of Fire" (something he's also working to get into recovery but hasn't yet at the time of the conversation with Will/Georgia...he picked that up to power the Ventas Servitas spell to blow the flame back in the prior book after he took the extreme consequence from the attack itself).  Harry was fighting Dead Beat with most of his consequences filled before the story even started.

Harry not getting any help for the Denarian consequence (he kept the secret for a book and a half from everybody) before this was a compel on "I work Alone" aspect that he picked up after Susan got hurt....etc.   Really Fate is a very good game system for the Dresden Files.

By contrast, a mere concussion just requires him to make a deal with his Faerie godmother....which causes problems later and gives her power over him, but he's up and running minutes after being taken out.  Likewise in Dead Beat getting injured with a shuriken is such a minor deal that he uses getting it into recovery as an excuse to investigate and learn from contacts. Harry doesn't have any room on his stress track for consequences bigger than Minor.  (later, he gets taken out because of this and needs Butters and Mouse to save him)

As for social....Murphy's stress track filled up with social consequences for helping Dresden until it broke her high concept.  Recovering from social consequences is even harder than from mental ones...there's no actual mechanic but presumably you work through contacts and presence somehow.  Indeed the mere THREAT of a social consequence to her drives much of the plot of Dead Beat, because probably Murphy needed to clear some before she picked up any more, and she was working off a "Workaholic who isn't a REAL woman" social consequence picked up at her family reunion (and inflicted by her sister+ex) with Kincaid in Hawaii (which started going into recovery when he ...um...removed her pants as part of a defuse a bomb scene in the prior book)

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