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Messages - g33k

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31
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 27, 2024, 04:54:35 PM »
... Though I think it is fair to say that Malcolm knew Margaret was a wizard, I think less clear, how much he knew of her world ...
IS that fair to say, though?  It's a viable speculation, but do we have any unambiguous canonical statement (or WoJ) that speaks directly to this?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't recall any such clarity.

... He knew enough apparently to go along with her desire to give birth to a star child ...
Again:  do we know this?  Was he on-board with the "starborn" scheme?  I don't really count the scene in the dream (around the campfire), because it's evident that Malcolm was VERY clued-in at that point.

... he named Harry after a magician that he admired ...
Three(4?) magicians:  Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, & the Blackstones (Sr. & Jr),  if you'll forgive the nitpick.

32
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 25, 2024, 11:28:05 PM »
Even though I think Harry was given his names for bargaining power (4 names) when dealing with "name taker's" I think the magicians of the day were wizards...

To be clear:  are you suggesting that the "magicians of the day" (Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, Harry Blackstone (Sr. & Jr.)) were all actual wizards (e.g. White Council or the like), instead of mundane "stage magicians" (like Malcolm was)?

I tend to think not.  "Stage magic" is a well-understood (if intentionally obscure) art, and we don't have to posit "real" magicians faking that they are faking their magic (tho it's an amusing idea).
 

33
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 25, 2024, 11:22:43 PM »
I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.

There is a more natural process, yes; I think most Whampires avoid that.

The DF Wiki says so, too:
Quote
The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.
(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)

... That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father ...

They did want that; but most whampires want to maintain their familial power.  For all their sexual prowess, whamp-reproduction is a rarity.  Even a small proportion of their children choosing not to become a serial sexual predator would spell doom for any family pursuing such "weakness."


... I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.

Again, I agree.  It's just that Raith père was following the mainstream tradition of House Raith, while Thomas & Lara wanted something better for Inari.


But again:  we are wandering afield from the OP topic (Thomas' actions against the Svartalves, and a "free pass" (or not) for that); @OutsideIn has asked us to stay on-topic.  I don't mind further whamp-centric discussion, but let's spin it off to a new Thread if we do.

34
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 24, 2024, 01:52:34 AM »
I bet any of the Faerie queens could do remove or greatly restrict the Whampire demon if their job description allowed for it. I don't know if any would. My bet is on Mab and Titania's job giving them the power to do it solely because Mab threatened to make Thomas the Winter Knight and I don't think she would want competition for control or influence on Thomas.
I'd have to re-read the passage for the precise wording:  it could have been just a bluff, a pressure-tactic against Harry.  But even so, I'd bet that Mab is entirely-willing to use a Whampire's hunger-demon as part of her manipulation-campaign against a Winter Knight.

Thomas would be especially-vulnerable:
  • isolate him from Justine "because training"
  • give him tons of hot&eager wintersidhe (from whom he can feed freely without risk of killing them.
Condition him to be unrestrained & incautious.  Then, when he has done some mission that made him spend deeply from the Whamp reserves, is desperately (even catastrophically) Hungry:
  • make all that Faerie Hotness "unfortunately-unavailable"
  • toss a vulnerable mortal Doe his way
Let the virtually-inevitable happen.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

35
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 24, 2024, 01:35:27 AM »
I don't see the svartalves being an issue really, they're old school in the same view as Mab? They more than likely know of Nemesis?

Harry remarked that he took notice of exactly who (at the Peace Talks) showed realization of what was implied by the Outer Gates being assaulted by the Outsiders, simultaneously with Ethniu's attack.

Jim -- that bastard! -- didn't tell us which parties were which.  I suspect he's leaving himself wiggle-room for future writing, where some groups that you'd think would know, do not; and some that you'd expect not to, do (maybe Jim even has some specific ideas in that direction).

I'd think that:
  • if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
  • if the Svartalves know of Nemesis
then Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.

But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.

36
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 24, 2024, 01:19:25 AM »
Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up ...
This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.

The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc).  A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.

37
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 23, 2024, 06:39:07 PM »
Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...

I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch?  Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas?  Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end?  It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him:  whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.

The 2nd question is the physical & practical one:  can he escape the Svartalven demands for retribution?

I note a similar parallel between the White Council's "Laws of Magic" -- which they enforce legalistically, at trial -- and the "natural law" laws of magic, which comes in to form of psychic trauma & damage (and, as Jim likes to say, "cackling villainy").  The WC laws are "only human:"  they can fail to detect broken Laws, they can fail to convict wrong-doers, they can falsely-convict those who aren't fallen to the Dark Side.   The "natural laws" come for Black Magicians willy-nilly (though evidently the Blackstaff (MW's WS) can stave that off, for the wielder), and impose their own penalties (often madness).

38
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 21, 2024, 12:57:16 AM »
You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see ...

No, I'm saying that Harry was understanding Vadderung/Odin wrong.
I quote Obi-Wan "It was true... from a certain point of view."

Odin doesn't want to just come out and say some of this outright.  He wants Harry to come to the understanding with a minimum of prompting from outside powers.

Here's the thing:  "Kringle" is a person... but only while Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle.  That "person" doesn't exist when Odin "takes off" the mantle, because "Kringle" (the person) is specifically and only the person who is wearing the Kringlemantle.

39
I don't know for sure, but I blame Fate Core. It was a big success, and it's just different enough from DFRPG to be incompatible.

But that doesn't preclude them from publishing another DFRPG book; nothing requires them to adhere to any particular ruleset; the existence of Fate Core doesn't prevent Fate Accelerated, and vice versa, so DFRPG seems perfectly valid & viable (noting also that EH is doing other, entirely-non-Fate RPG's).  And if (as I am given to understand) the DFRPG volumes sold exceptionally well for them, it seems like a simple business decision.

Maybe the 3rd volume didn't sell as well as the 1st two, making a 4th less-tempting?
Maybe Jim and/or Fred changed their minds about it?
 
Honestly puzzled!

40
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 19, 2024, 11:09:38 PM »
I happened to be re-reading Changes this week, and it turns out that the Fae can "lull [a Red Court vampire] predator spirit to sleep...
Well, Lea can.  Doubt it's a general thing that very many of the Fae can do!  I bet Mab can, and maybe Titania.  I doubt the Winter Ladies could do it:  Maeve was too much of a slacker, Molly is both too new, and likely still flinches every time she thinks deeply about Rampires.  I'm less clear about the Summer Ladies, but kind of doubt it:  Winter (as led by Mab) seems to embrace the "knowledge is power" trope more; Summer seems to more intuitively feel that knowledge flows from power.

Also, Lea talked about it as a secret, as knowledge that she could trade for; not an inherently "faerie" power.

41
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 19, 2024, 10:57:07 PM »
... What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.
Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.

The WoJ is clear:  "Kringle" is a faerie mantle (specifically, Winterfae).

... Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his.  In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.

Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need.  If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .

Harry doesn't stop being Harry, just because he's got the WK mantle (I'm expecting him to learn the off-and-on mantle trick from Odin).

Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle:  neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.

42
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 19, 2024, 01:00:18 AM »
Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is:
Quote
Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page

Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.
 

43
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 16, 2024, 11:49:25 PM »
... Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol."  This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.

The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.

And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).

44
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 15, 2024, 11:23:47 PM »
... I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle...

No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.

Kringle is subject to Mab.

Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
 

45
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 15, 2024, 06:29:48 PM »
  If I remember correctly, Jim has said that the Warden of Demonreach can release portions of the prisoners but not all. The example he gave (assuming my memory is right) is that Harry could trap Vadderrung/Odin/Claus on the island and release Vadderrung but not Claus. Since Claus was the portion of that being who was keeping him immortal, he would have really good leverage on him. I imagine that Harry could, theoretically, do the same with Thomas.
"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though.  Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle.  Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle:  because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).

I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die).  Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.

I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though.  Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.


However, we know that there is an angel in the Sword of the Cross. Since those angels presumably has more experience and knowledge than Harry, it could probably be more precise at only killing the Whampire demon. In fact, the Sword of Faith would probably be perfect for this.
I presume Amoracchius -- the Sword of Love -- would be the most natural for dealing with the whampire hunger-demon of lust.

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