ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on October 11, 2020, 01:50:00 AM
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Harry is clearly on a collision course with the White Council with open defiance of them.
Is this going to attract other Wizard level talents such as under the radar sorcerers, warlocks capable of redemption (and some not) and runaway apprentices abused by their Masters?
If so what would Harry do?
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You mean rush to the city that was just attacked by a Titan, will have official and unofficial mortals watching for any hint of anything supernatural, and the power is divided between vampires, the unseelie, and a gangster with a brutal reputation for anyone that gets out of line in his territory?
Sounds great to me, and I hope it happens. I think it'll be great for Harry to build a small army. But I don't think folks will rush into that danger. Those that would show up will mostly likely be so bad that they'll probably sign on with Marcone rather than Harry.
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I mean, some living space just opened up 😳
But I find it more likely the paranetters will arrive in greater numbers and occupy the castle. Like with was paranoid Gary doing in Chicago anyway? Thought he was from across the lake?
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It depends on whether the current outbreak of insanity at the White Council continues or not. There will be rumblings about Harry’s treatment (it made Michael Carpenter swear) and whilst they are afraid to move against Harry, they are likely to move against dissidents who are not one man supernatural nuclear powers. They have to to avoid falling apart.
And yes Chicago has just been through rough times but if it is seen to be openly acknowledging the supernatural that may be a big plus. your a young wizard, you meet a nice girl, everything is going terrifically until she asks what you do for a living, and then you make your excuses and leave never to see her again. Your dating choices are either other wizards (heavily male and beard orientated) or someone like the Winter Lady. No wonder Carlos is still a virgin.
When Carlos realises in Chicago he can say to an interested girl “I am a Wizard!” And she says “Cool, like Harry Dresden, do you want to show me your staff?” His loyalty to the White Council will crumble away. This is the point, the supernatural is an underground culture at the moment, Harry is trying to make it an accepted part of the mainstream culture. There is no reason Chicago cannot be the supernatural San Franscisco.
When you have the gossip pages running “Wizard of Chicago, Harry Dresden was seen at the ball with retired pornstar and Vampire Queen Lara Raith on his arm” then he has hit the mainstream, and damn me I think that is exactly what Mab’s plan is. It will be attractive to anyone tired of hiding in the shadows.
As for paranoid Gary, of course if he is going out for a drink, he is going to take a train to the next State (paying in cash) for a ticket beyond Chicago with his bike (so no cab or Uber), and go to the most protected public place within that State, totally (he thinks) anonymously. It must have crushed him that everyone knew who he was.
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You mean rush to the city that was just attacked by a Titan, will have official and unofficial mortals watching for any hint of anything supernatural, and the power is divided between vampires, the unseelie, and a gangster with a brutal reputation for anyone that gets out of line in his territory?
Sounds great to me, and I hope it happens. I think it'll be great for Harry to build a small army. But I don't think folks will rush into that danger. Those that would show up will mostly likely be so bad that they'll probably sign on with Marcone rather than Harry.
A lot of people are already in danger and it will be only worse. They will look for protection and that means joining a group. If Harry believably offers protection and leadership he will get followers.
When followers become retainers Harry needs to use them to generate income and that is his weak point. He can not just gather them, invade somewhere and get loot which is the traditional way of handling this.
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Harry is out of the White Council and already has control of a significant group of talented people -- the Paranet. While they are, by and large, not wizard level talents -- they have Elaine.
Elaine is pretty close to pre-Winter Knight Harry. She was smoother, he had more muscle.
If you think about it, the White Council has very few people who could (or would be willing to) take on Harry. Listens to Wind and McCoy are damaged, or won't. Good luck with the Treason charge Merlin.... Rashid can't be risked given the state of the Gates, and its not clear he would.
The Merlin of course could, but that would be a terrible risk and as good as a declaration of War against Winter. Christos? Liberty? Mai? Christos can throw down, but is he man enough to do so? Liberty and Mai don't seem like fighters.
Chandler, Yoki, Wild Bill and Ramirez might have working together. But, Yoki and Bill are done. Chandler is in the shadow realm and Ramirez is not up to it. Maybe they've got some of the older wardens too, but those people were frightened of pre-Winter Knight Harry. They probably wet their beds thinking about post-Winter Knight Harry Dresden with access to the Eye and a legion of chained horrors begging for parole.
Captain Lucio? I don't know that she would thrown down with Harry, but would the White Council risk that given her past relationship with Harry? Besides, she's still not as good as she had been pre-corpse taker.
In the end, after fifteen years of war, most of their most powerful assets from a direct confrontational point of view are depleted, damaged or have questionable loyalties where Harry is involved.
This was a stupid bluff by the Merlin.
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I wouldn't discount Ramirez aided by whichever those Wardens were that joined the Senior Councillors for the Battle of the Bean. Harry has only the one pair of eyes.
They'd take losses, probably grievous losses, but they'd get the job done. The White Council would stand, Harry'd be dead. That imbalance is why it's not totally a bluff.
Mind: it is still largely a bluff, since taking down Harry probably isn't worth the cost - there would be political consequences (especially when his engagement with Lara gets publicized), and unless the top fighters get involved (who you, I think rightly, discount) there would be personnel losses too.
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The assassin does not have to be as powerful as the target. Proper intelligence and preparation can get you far. Harry killed the summer lady after all before he was even winter knight.
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The assassin does not have to be as powerful as the target. Proper intelligence and preparation can get you far. Harry killed the summer lady after all before he was even winter knight.
Yet another reason to be terrified of Harry. And, everyone saw his legion of little folk at the Battle of Chicago.
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Yet another reason to be terrified of Harry. And, everyone saw his legion of little folk at the Battle of Chicago.
But also a reason for Harry to be very careful with the white council.
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The fear for the White Council is that they take their best shot...and miss. What they know about Harry is a nightmare, and what they don’t know worries them even more.
What if Harry were to give the Little Folk the order “cut the throat of every and any wizard of the White Council that you can find, whenever and wherever you can find them” the losses would quickly mount in the hundreds. Of course Harry would never give that order, BUT they could imagine themselves in Harry’s position giving that Order. Or he released the Titan with the Eye under the order “destroy the White Council and their Edinburgh stronghold in their entirety”. Or did both at the same time.
Harry could render the White Council extinct if he so wished, it is now within his known power. Of the White Council are going to pick on other wizards to make an example of them, other wizards couldn’t take them on single handed.
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Rashid can't be risked given the state of the Gates, and its not clear he would.
The "divided loyalties with Winter" angle isn't going to carry much traction with Rashid, that's for sure.
Of course, you don't really need a powerhouse to cap Harry. You'd just need someone who can veil well enough he wouldn't see it coming to wait outside his door and shoot him in the head. Carlos could get that done if he thought it was genuinely right, although I'm not sure he's that far gone.
Langtry could also contract with a supernatural mercenary like Kincaid or Grey - I'm not sure either of them would take the job, but there are probably a few others similarly dangerous. If Langtry would stoop to dealing with him, Shagnasty could probably still take Harry on the mainland.
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Yeah the Council can 100% deal with Harry at any time, that's not the issue, the issue is that
A) It's bad press to do that after the guy just bound a god and saved a large portion of Chicago.
B) The Harry they're worried about is not the Harry that is. Remember that scene on Demonreach, when he realised what the Council saw when looking at him? Take that, throw in "Army of Pixies" "Horde of Demons/Gods in reserve" "Political ties to two other Magical Nations" and "Believed to have at least 2 Magical Nuke Equivalents".
So instead they kicked him out in the hopes that someone else will do their work for them.
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Yeah the Council can 100% deal with Harry at any time, that's not the issue, the issue is that
A) It's bad press to do that after the guy just bound a god and saved a large portion of Chicago.
B) The Harry they're worried about is not the Harry that is. Remember that scene on Demonreach, when he realised what the Council saw when looking at him? Take that, throw in "Army of Pixies" "Horde of Demons/Gods in reserve" "Political ties to two other Magical Nations" and "Believed to have at least 2 Magical Nuke Equivalents".
So instead they kicked him out in the hopes that someone else will do their work for them.
Yeah, none of it seems thought through all that much, unless they want to go after him and take him
down like they did Kemmler. However they suspended that sentence. Why? Did they finally get the connection between the Blackstaff and Harry? Just weird, including the trumped up charges for doing so.. Because he killed some Turtlenecks with magic? Um couldn't that same charge be extended to Eb, Listens to Wind, and Christos, as well as Carlos and the surviving Wardens? I go along with what Mab said about them tossing out the wolf they are afraid of.. But predicts that Harry is the wolf they are going to need.
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However they suspended that sentence. Why?
I suspect, like Changes, it isn't actually about Harry. He's a convenient tool for the adversary/Adversary to use against Eb. Remember, Eb was harping about them using someone close to Harry in Pease Talks. And, they did. But, now they're using someone close to Eb in order to put him in a tough spot. What Eb's side of things look like, or the larger ramifications of the entire situation are... I'm not sure. But, that's the impression I got.
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I suspect, like Changes, it isn't actually about Harry. He's a convenient tool for the adversary/Adversary to use against Eb. Remember, Eb was harping about them using someone close to Harry in Pease Talks. And, they did. But, now they're using someone close to Eb in order to put him in a tough spot. What Eb's side of things look like, or the larger ramifications of the entire situation are... I'm not sure. But, that's the impression I got.
I think it is part of a cover up of some sort, if they were behind the creation of a star born, they don't want to world to know about it. Apparently they want to keep that information from Harry as well. If he is on the outside he can accomplish what they want, but if he screws up, they don't have to take responsibility and can go on as before.
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The "divided loyalties with Winter" angle isn't going to carry much traction with Rashid, that's for sure.
Of course, you don't really need a powerhouse to cap Harry. You'd just need someone who can veil well enough he wouldn't see it coming to wait outside his door and shoot him in the head. Carlos could get that done if he thought it was genuinely right, although I'm not sure he's that far gone.
Langtry could also contract with a supernatural mercenary like Kincaid or Grey - I'm not sure either of them would take the job, but there are probably a few others similarly dangerous. If Langtry would stoop to dealing with him, Shagnasty could probably still take Harry on the mainland.
Good points. A couple additional thoughts.
My point about Rashid was not an issue with loyalty to Winter. I don't think Rashid has loyalty to Winter. The problem is that Rashid's job may be one of the most important in Creation right now. If Rashid were killed or incapacitated, then the Gates could fall.
It seems possible that the White Council wants someone else to do their work for them. That would be a very Langtry thing to do. Hiring a mercenary to do it could be possible. But, how many qualified supernatural mercenaries are available? That would be willing to risk Mab's displeasure. That would be willing to face the Winter Knight? Mercenaries by definition take on risky, not potentially suicidal jobs.
Grey could easily do it, that is true. But would he? And, would the White Council ask him? He's probably known to them as having worked with Harry at least two times now. They would probably scratch Grey off the list.
True, Harry was in some risk in the immediate aftermath of the White Council's decision -- because he had been beaten to an inch of his life, expended vast amounts of energy and everything was in chaos. In a couple months, where Harry has rested up, replenished his gear, established Castle Dresden with defenses, the Winter Knight and Consort of the White Court of Vampires is a certifiable nightmare.
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Good points. A couple additional thoughts.
My point about Rashid was not an issue with loyalty to Winter. I don't think Rashid has loyalty to Winter. The problem is that Rashid's job may be one of the most important in Creation right now. If Rashid were killed or incapacitated, then the Gates could fall. .
Rashid is loyal to his job and so he understands more about Harry’s job than the rest of the white council. As long as Harry stays loyal to his job the gatekeeper won’t turn against him.
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Yes the White Council can try to cap Harry, but as pointed out above they have to worry about a miss, and that worry is much more than academic.
Harry has come back from the dead once, and he is known to have a flair for necromancy. They have to worry that if they try and fail, Harry would go full Kemmler on them with weapons and allies Kemmler could only have dreamed of. They are hoping for a stand off, Harry isn’t going to oblige, but neither is he going to hunt down the White Council.
As it stands Carlos is covering all of the US now, Harry has his mothers guide to the Never Never. What’s the odds that Harry can beat Carlos every time to a new Warlock, Sorceror etc and bring them back to Chicago before Carlos? He has the entire Paranet to spot new Wizards for him.
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I do not think Harry is on Kemmler's level yet.
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I do not think Harry is on Kemmler's level yet.
He raised Sue, that puts him on Kemmler's level, but at the same time I find hard to believe that
Harry would raise zombies or DR Who himself, so he will never be Kemmler.
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In their minds he has the potential, but not the inclination, it’s not like he is going to kick off a war or something......whoops!
Well only by accident rather than intention.
But yes it’s not just fear which has led to his exclusion, it’s some of the questions he is (finally) seeking to ask.
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In their minds he has the potential, but not the inclination, it’s not like he is going to kick off a war or something......whoops!
Well only by accident rather than intention.
But yes it’s not just fear which has led to his exclusion, it’s some of the questions he is (finally) seeking to ask.
I still think they wanted him out, so when he does something they covertly want, but overtly are against. They can wring their hands and cry, "woah is me, sorry he is no longer one of us, so blame Mab."
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I still think they wanted him out, so when he does something they covertly want, but overtly are against. They can wring their hands and cry, "woah is me, sorry he is no longer one of us, so blame Mab."
That's quite possible as well: "Oh no, don't throw Harry Dresden into the supernatural briar patch!" In other words, they have pre-disavowed Harry for any of his further actions. Harry is extremely predictable, actually.
It's amusing to a degree that most of his adversaries don't understand him (probably because they cannot). Does the White Council understand Harry that well? Maybe McCoy, but Langtry? No. Langtry is driving the car, which is why he had the emergency meeting while Hary's staunchest allies were in surgery.
By the way, the fact that Langtry/Mai and maybe Christos/Liberty as well had to force this issue through in the way that they did, makes me personally suspect that Harry WON the general membership vote. Of course, much of that occurred before Ethniu's attack. Perhaps a post-Ethniu White Council would have voted against Harry.
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He raised Sue, that puts him on Kemmler's level, but at the same time I find hard to believe that
Harry would raise zombies or DR Who himself, so he will never be Kemmler.
He missed his shot at becoming the next Kemmler back in Changes.
That's quite possible as well: "Oh no, don't throw Harry Dresden into the supernatural briar patch!" In other words, they have pre-disavowed Harry for any of his further actions. Harry is extremely predictable, actually.
It's amusing to a degree that most of his adversaries don't understand him (probably because they cannot). Does the White Council understand Harry that well? Maybe McCoy, but Langtry? No. Langtry is driving the car, which is why he had the emergency meeting while Hary's staunchest allies were in surgery.
By the way, the fact that Langtry/Mai and maybe Christos/Liberty as well had to force this issue through in the way that they did, makes me personally suspect that Harry WON the general membership vote. Of course, much of that occurred before Ethniu's attack. Perhaps a post-Ethniu White Council would have voted against Harry.
No, there were two votes, the public one for kicking him out and then the senior council one for the restrictions to put on him.
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As it stands Carlos is covering all of the US now, Harry has his mothers guide to the Never Never. What’s the odds that Harry can beat Carlos every time to a new Warlock, Sorceror etc and bring them back to Chicago before Carlos? He has the entire Paranet to spot new Wizards for him.
This is actually a very good point which fits very well with the "Sanctuary City" part. Especially if he did not focus on Warlocs but just people with talent. I do not think he has the time to redeem many warlocs at a time, but Harry's Castle for Gifted Youngsers definately has promise. I guess the less talented paranetters could teach basics even if they do not have much power.
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Well Harry is going to have to shave his head following all those scalp wounds in BG, and he is technically a paraplegic.....
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Well Harry is going to have to shave his head following all those scalp wounds in BG, and he is technically a paraplegic.....
He has accelerated healing, more than normal wizards.
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Yes, but if Harry got the chance to play at Professor X he would do it in a heartbeat.
But yes after what happened to Harry the Paranet is going to be leery about trusting potential young wizards to the White Council, so Elaine and Harry are the only real options, other than let them go Warlock. I can see the youngest being fostered by the Carpenters (they have the experience and room) with the older staying in the guest accommodation in the Castle. Indeed with the reality break in BG and all the magic slopping around, it would be strange if some Wizard level talents weren’t activated early.
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No, there were two votes, the public one for kicking him out and then the senior council one for the restrictions to put on him.
I also think Harry has it about right as well, trumped up charges that he broke the First Law by
killing sorta humans with magic.. Um, Carlos I believe was vaporizing them, but no charges against him. Then suspending the sentence? Why? Because they know it is a sham attempt to control Harry, they don't really want him executed.
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It may have been the profile of the public vote, Harry would have got the votes of most of the young Wardens, awkward for most of your police force to vote for the gangster number one.
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Well Harry is going to have to shave his head following all those scalp wounds in BG, and he is technically a paraplegic.....
I still don't think so. The deal with Mab was to fix it, not mask the damage.
He lost feeling in his legs once for considering defying winter law, and none of the times the mantle was blocked by being pierced by iron. That says the once was punishment, maybe meant to make him draw wrong conclusions about how much he needs to stay with Winter.
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I still don't think so. The deal with Mab was to fix it, not mask the damage.
He lost feeling in his legs once for considering defying winter law, and none of the times the mantle was blocked by being pierced by iron. That says the once was punishment, maybe meant to make him draw wrong conclusions about how much he needs to stay with Winter.
Yeah, it was when Harry said in effect, "screw Winter." Suddenly his legs didn't work anymore, Mab was making a point.
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[1]Harry is clearly on a collision course with the White Council with open defiance of them.
Is this going to attract other Wizard level talents such as under the radar sorcerers, warlocks capable of redemption (and some not) and runaway apprentices abused by their Masters?
[2]If so what would Harry do?
1. That's my theory. 2. Start a Grey Council in earnest.
You mean rush to ...
Nah. It will take a while.
He can not just gather them, invade somewhere and get loot which is the traditional way of handling this.
While I agree, I sure hope we're wrong. I mean, he has done that sort of thing before. He could ask Mab for a rich enemies list.
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Employ paranoid Gary and the Paranet to hack the White Council’s finances, and distribute it to the relief effort in Chicago, as I don’t see the White Council putting their hands in their pockets, the tight beardy gits.
Use the rest to pay the Wardens involved in the Battle of Chicago a one off gratuity, let’s see the White Council try and get that back without alienating every Warden. At the same time publish the White Councils financial records to make it clear they have been stiffing the Wardens for decades.
Thus the Paranet earn their bones in economic warfare against the White Council. In this day and age property registers are all electronic, bank accounts, and share holdings and registrations, the Paranet have a huge advantage in that respect over the White Council who must be using mortal middlemen.
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Employ paranoid Gary and the Paranet to hack the White Council’s finances, and distribute it to the relief effort in Chicago, as I don’t see the White Council putting their hands in their pockets, the tight beardy gits.
Use the rest to pay the Wardens involved in the Battle of Chicago a one off gratuity, let’s see the White Council try and get that back without alienating every Warden. At the same time publish the White Councils financial records to make it clear they have been stiffing the Wardens for decades.
Thus the Paranet earn their bones in economic warfare against the White Council. In this day and age property registers are all electronic, bank accounts, and share holdings and registrations, the Paranet have a huge advantage in that respect over the White Council who must be using mortal middlemen.
I don't see Harry embezzling, but the meta point is a good one. The White Council was so hidebound that it had to rely on the Fellowship of St. Giles and other mortal organizations to run legal and financial interference for them against the Red Court.
The fundamental problem with the White Council as an organization is that they only care about magic talent. The Paranet could be, in the end, much more useful and powerful as an organization and for humanity because they are more open to broader human talent. I don't think Paranoid Gary is a practitioner of any power at all, is he? Yet, he's a pretty useful person to have around. The Paranet is even in a better position to identify Wizard level talents than is the White Council.
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Not embezzling, Robin Hooding it. Harry wouldn’t need to touch the money, just deny it to the White Council, but not the Wardens.
WOJ has it that Paranoid Gary is an Oracle, a very low powered practitioner but whose minor gift greatly enhances his first rate hacking skills, he can “see” things like in Psych, and put apparently scant random data together to create a coherent model. So if you want someone to run a hacking organisation, ferret out passwords etc Gary would be your man.
Langtrey’s Password for everything is probably “Bottlecap123”
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That would not be wise. there are probably still people in the council who do not want to act against Harry and it is better just to try find out what is going on in stead of giving his enemies more ammunition.
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Really? They would peg Harry for this? The notorious computer expert Harry Dresden? Marcone, White Court, Swartalves are all far more likely, especially Marcone, they don’t bank with him and word will get round to them that Marcone has the Eye, they might think he is warning them to keep out of his Town.
Setting up a showdown between Marcone and the White Council is a win win situation for Harry.
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Really? They would peg Harry for this? The notorious computer expert Harry Dresden? Marcone, White Court, Swartalves are all far more likely, especially Marcone, they don’t bank with him and word will get round to them that Marcone has the Eye, they might think he is warning them to keep out of his Town.
Setting up a showdown between Marcone and the White Council is a win win situation for Harry.
From white Night:
The
Council’s investigators worked more slowly than Lara’s had, but they got to the
same information by following the money, eventually. The Council confronted the
White Court with the information.
Lara
sent them the heads of the persons responsible. Literally. Leave it to Lara to
find a way to get one last bit of mileage out of Madeline and the business
manager’s corpses. She told the Council to keep the money, too, by way of
apology. The next best thing to six million in cash buys a lot of oil to pour
on troubled waters
They have investigators that can find things out.
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They were supposed to find the link to the White Court.
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They were supposed to find the link to the White Court.
Sure but you can not assume they won’t find you.
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Not embezzling, Robin Hooding it.
It ain't embezzling if you don't have any authority over or lawful access to it. Probably wire fraud.