ParanetOnline
McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: blgarver on August 13, 2007, 02:46:39 AM
-
Okay, this is something I'm sure everyone that's ever written a story has run into and riddled themselves about, so hopefully you guys can help me with some insight.
So many fantasy/speculative fiction books have some grand them at their core, something fundamentally so different, and yet so simple, than anything we've ever heard of before that it seems like a stroke of pure genius to us. Well, as many of you here, I'm trying to become a fantasy author - no particular reason, it's just that when I write, it always comes out on the flip side of reality - and I'm finding myself getting tripped up and discouraged in the fact that my current novel doesn't have any ground breaking, life changing concepts.
At least I don't think it does. I don't really write with a message, I just like to write stories.
And these concepts in these books usually go through all the way to the end in some hellishly clever and unexpected ending. So here's my conundrum: How the hell am I supposed to write an unexpected ending, when I know what the ending is in the first place?
And, it's really my instinct to go against the twist/surprise ending that's become such a staple in the genre, simply because it seems to have come full circle to the point of nearing the realm of cliche.
How come I'm struggling so much with just writing an ending that resolves and is right for the story without conveying some concept or message that could make the reader tingle when he/she thinks about it?
And yes, I'm writing this in regards to my first novel, which is still not finished...but I am much closer than I was when I last posted about it, under "Oh crap - I'm stuck." I'm now about 30 pages from the end. The end just isn't striking me like I feel it should.
Thanks again everyone, your input has definately helped me in the past. I can only assume it will help me again.
BLG
-
Um, not a very experienced writer here, but...
If you just like to tell stories, then why not do that? Why necessarily do you need a 'message'?
I mean, if it sales you're concerned with, I can get that, I worry about that, and I'm nowhere near publishing a book. I can only imagine... but, I think if the story's good enough, it can still make money. I mean, look at Hollywood. Have you ever seen a great movie that didn't have some sort of message to force down your throat, it just told a great story? I can. Two, actually, and they're series. The Lord of the Rings and Spider-Man. (I count three, and that's because despite some flaws in writing, it ended up being enjoyable.)
But, this is just me. Don't go making any huge life decisions without another opinion. Anyway, I hope this helps. If not, then I'm sorry.
-
I'm all for writing for writing's sake, but some people like to add a message in their stories. Lord knows I do.
In answer to the OP, I think the ending should in some way incorporate at least one of your messages.
I'll give you a for instance. Dune, highest grossing Sci-Fi novel ever. It ends with Jessica, who was not married to her son's father but rather his concubine whom he considered a wife, telling Chani, who is about to be put in the same position, that "She may bear his name, but history will call us 'Wives'"
Hope this helped
-
So if you don't want to focus on a "message" then focus on your characters. That's what the story is about, isn't it? Your characters struggling for something, and in the end, hopefully achieving it? So what do your characters care about? How would they say goodbye, in their own special way? Is there a phrase or some action they could do that doesn't scream "close the book now!" but is a nice closure for the reader who has journeyed along with these characters? A way of showing how much the events have changed them? You certainly don't have to sit the reader down and say, Let's see what you've learned so far. They're smart. They'll get the point, even if you don't realize you're making it.
-
I have to say, I think that many books (whatever format or genre) aren't written with quite the 'grand themes' that we later take from them. Certainly, on the other hand, many are. The key is whether or not you told a good story. That said, I do feel the same desire. I don't think it's a matter of writing so that it sells (non-thoughtful books sell very well these days, after all). I think it's a desire to write something more meaningful than 'just' a story.
On another note, just because you know what the ending is in the first place doesn't mean that it won't come out unexpected to the reader. And there's no reason you have to go with a 'twist' ending. That does get cliche. Sometimes the quest ends with successfully destroying the ring or killing the dragon. Sometimes the heroes die (but if they do it had better be appropriate to the characters). I'm curious what you settle on. Let me ask, though. Did you, when starting off, have a vision in mind for the end?
-
I have to say, I think that many books (whatever format or genre) aren't written with quite the 'grand themes' that we later take from them. Certainly, on the other hand, many are. The key is whether or not you told a good story.
Agreed, but there's still lots of interesting stuff to be learned in how you tell a particular story well, which to me is kind of the point of talking about writing in the first place; I doubt many of us are participating in these conversations without the intent of telling our various stories as well as we can tell them.
-
I'm curious what you settle on. Let me ask, though. Did you, when starting off, have a vision in mind for the end?
When I first concieved this idea, it was supposed to be a one page short. It quickly grew, and if I consider "starting off" to be when I decided to make it a novel, uh...I had a very generalized ending in mind. It wasn't detailed at all, nothing like it is now that I'm 30 pages from the finale. Still isn't quite sitting right with me, but I want to finish it so I can start the rewrite and fix it.
-
Agreed, but there's still lots of interesting stuff to be learned in how you tell a particular story well, which to me is kind of the point of talking about writing in the first place; I doubt many of us are participating in these conversations without the intent of telling our various stories as well as we can tell them.
Tragedy! I wrote a beautiful response and promptly lost it. So the excitement I had at first seeing this comment is a little dampened now. I have to try and remember everything I wrote.
Okay, I have been pondering story itself for a while. I wrote this long blog entry that I don't think anyone ever read. But it means that I can respond somewhat articulately since my thoughts on the subject are already organized.
There are good stories out there. (And by "good story" I mean plot, mostly. The stuff that happens.) Then there are well-written stories. Then there are good, well-written stories. A good story is not necessarily well-written. A well-written story isn't necessarily a good one. These good, well-written stories are much harder to find but much more satisfying. They make you gasp when you close the cover, and they stick with you long after you have recommended them to everyone you know before putting them back on the shelf. That's what I aspire to. It's hard. I'd much rather just concentrating on telling a good story, or on telling a beautifully crafted one. But those aren't the kinds of books I love. I love the ones that do both, and I want to write those.
There is so much value in discussing all these aspects of writing: the nuts and bolts, the grammar, structure (I HATE structure! It's so freaking hard!), as well as the creative stuff.
And my final input is that while I respect anyone who writes stories because it takes guts to just sit down and actually finish something, I think that anyone who doesn't aspire to write a good story that is also well-written is cheating themselves, and that's sad. Not everyone can write, but everyone who writes can get better. Always.
--Sarah
-
I agree, ihatepeas. And I've narrowed my dilemma down to structure and character. I have a shaky handle on the characters, but havne't worked out their arcs. I'm too eager, too impatient.
So now that i've realized that I don't even want to finish these last 30 pages or so on the first draft. I want to go back, do the framework, and the do the rewrite. Now that I've accepted that I'm not Stephen King (only he can write sans outline) I'm very excited about building the story ground up.
But I also feel like I SHOULD finish this crappy first draft that has more holes than the bonnie and clyde death car.
Any advice? Tough this one out, even though I'm losing steam and kind of disenchanted with this version; or just go back and restructure and start with the rewrite?
-
Now that I've accepted that I'm not Stephen King (only he can write sans outline)
This is not in fact true. Steven Brust is the first counterexample to come to mind, and I'm aware of several other published and well established writers who don't outline or find the things actively unhelpful.
-
Really? I might have to check the others out. I LOVE King, but sometimes it gets trying to get through a thousand pages.
-
I've never used an outline and never will. If I knew what was going to happen I'd probably not bother writing.
-
I've never used an outline and never will. If I knew what was going to happen I'd probably not bother writing.
I wholeheartedly agree. If I know the story beforehand, there doesn't seem to be any point in writing it. 99% of the enjoyment I get from writing is being carried along with the reader, not knowing how it will turn out until I get there.
--Sarah
-
Well, that's how I feel too...I'm along for the ride with my characters. However, the lack of structure is causing me to force a lot of scenes and they just seem...blah.
-
Well, that's how I feel too...I'm along for the ride with my characters. However, the lack of structure is causing me to force a lot of scenes and they just seem...blah.
To clarify: I mean an outline in the sense of a detailed rundown of every sequence and scene. I do make notes. I work on a daily quota system and, usually, the last thing written will be notes and reminders for the next session. Otherwise, I'd forget what I was leading up to in the current session. These notes are far from written in stone. Sometimes a better idea comes along and sometimes they just flat out do not work like you thought they would.
Be careful of judging individual scenes as 'blah'. Any story needs moments when the action, tension and conflict are relieved and the characters are either given a moment to breathe or allowed to dangle. This is a needed element in the creation of suspense. In other words, that scene that may seem blah to you might just be the pause a reader needed before the next turn of the screw. :)
Mr. Butcher has some excellent advice on the construction of scenes on his blog. If I get a moment later on today, I'll revisit this post and link them. :)
-
I'll follow Jim's lead...
With the length and breadth of what Butcher is doing with so many books planned, you have to follow an outline or you can end up somewhere you didn't want to you. I think he said something like, "I have my outline and I'm sticking to it." I think the unimplied followup sentence was...."and it's for me to know, you to guess and then read and find out.." Underneath all our speculation, I really don't want to know for sure. It'd spoil my ride. I have the distinct feeling that Butcher's story telling is rich enough to keep us guessing and wondering through all of his planned books and the whole time he's following that outline. My guess is that outline should be kept in Fort Knox or at the Goblin Bank.
Recently I've learned to take the characters where I want them to go and get where I want to OR I can let a character take me along (a short path, probably cut out later), but like spoiled children too much leash will spoil the child (and the story).
I follow what my instructors have told me. Every word, every sentence must put the reader further into the action/plot of the story. Think of it as a screenplay--the side passage can be brought in as a single sentence or a careful selection of a shadowed adjective here or there. Much more interesting than a three chapter side passage meanderng around.
-
I'll follow Jim's lead...
With the length and breadth of what Butcher is doing with so many books planned, you have to follow an outline or you can end up somewhere you didn't want to you. I think he said something like, "I have my outline and I'm sticking to it." I think the unimplied followup sentence was...."and it's for me to know, you to guess and then read and find out.."
I love Jim's work, and I'd not read that but it fits with how the series feels to me.
I'd put up as a counterexample, again, Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series. Projected as nineteen books, of which ten are in print and the eleventh has been handed in: I am absolutely sure it's not going where he expected it to, both from things he says about how he writes and from there being a short story set well in advance of the earlier books which is no longer "canon" because the novels getting to that point changed in the writing. The same is true of P.C. Hodgell's Kencyrath books. Both these series remain excellent.
Recently I've learned to take the characters where I want them to go and get where I want to OR I can let a character take me along (a short path, probably cut out later), but like spoiled children too much leash will spoil the child (and the story).
This all depends on how you interact with your characters.
Myself, when I have a key role to fill in a story, the first thing that character will start to grow from is "needs to have X reaction to situation Y and W reaction to situation Z". If I give them their head, I alreayd know what they are going to do about that particular set of important stuff; what they do about thinga along the way has to be fresh and new to me, though, or the book turns to cold porridge and I can't actually write it, and that usually gives me things I didn;t know which complicate and enhance the bits I know I want to get to.
I have written one whole novel with a protagonist who spent the entire story wanting the plot to leave him alone and the competent authorities to take care of it so he could go out and have a couple of nice meals and meet someone cute. He got poked a bit to get things going, but not much more so than many other stories; it did not take the imminence of a Dark Lord threatening the world or the discovery of a bloody murder, put it that way.
Every word, every sentence must put the reader further into the action/plot of the story. Think of it as a screenplay--the side passage can be brought in as a single sentence or a careful selection of a shadowed adjective here or there. Much more interesting than a three chapter side passage meanderng around.
I adhere to some combination of Brust's Cool Theory of Literature and C.J, Cherryh's dictum about every scene needing to do at least two things, and most needing to do three. Those three can include world-building, plot, character development, and so on, any of which are useful. I think if you're writing a novel, scene-by-scene and para-by-para is enough on which to scale this; word-by-word is a poetry level of density, not a prose one, and very few people can keep that up at novel-length; and those who do tend to produce novels as accessible as Ulysses or Thomas Pynchon.