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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: crazyut90 on October 30, 2020, 05:57:17 PM
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After reading the whole series prior to Peace Talks and Battle Ground coming out several things have popped up and I would like to see what everyone's thoughts are on them, here we go:
1. Several times in Battlefront Harry hears commands from both Molly and Mab in his head, since he is the winter knight and Mab is his liege lord, does she have a connection with him where she know what is going on with him? It seems like going back to CD and SG that she knew more than she was told and I believe she has a contact with him similar to what Harry has to his supporters thru the Banner. The reason i bring this up is her quick comments to Harry in Peace Talks about not bringing her name shame if he screws up the rescue of Thomas, it is like she knew what he was doing.
2. This is a big one, why does Mab want a better relationship with the White Court? This one just doesn't seem to work out in everything that we have read to this point, unless Mab is grooming Lara for a Winter Lady position? or she knows that Lord Wraith is "N"infected and wants a closer look? We know from previous books that Mab always has several moves going at any time due to her responsibility of protecting the outer gates, so either is possible?
3. The last three books Mab has gotten way to close to the Baron of Chicago and I have thought that this was weird, until we find out that Marcone has a coin. I believe that she knows this and is keeping her enemies close, and she still has payback to Namshield for attaching her home. I thought Namshield was "N"infected, so now i wonder if Marcone is too?
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Well, first, it's "Battle Ground" :)
1-Yes, I agree with you. I don't think she knows all what is in Harry's head, but I think she has access of some of it. I don't know the details. That said, the explicit verbal communication between Harry and the queens was, I believe, a magic effect generated for the battle and not something that is always "on".
2-You are not the first in suggesting that Mab is grooming Lara as WL. In this same forum we argue that in several threads. I agree, only because that provides a way out for Molly. And because having Lara became a virgin, unable to have sex, would be very ironic. But besides that, I think that Mab wants to use the mundane connections and resources of the White Court. Lastly, she now knows that Lara needs to keep Harry alive, and she is providing a good way to her to be near him. And an engagement with the White Court would provide Harry with a good protection now that he is not White Council anymore.
3-Not proven, but I agree Mab knows Marcone (please, his name is Marcone) has Namshiel, and she is planning her revenge.
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Well, first, it's "Battle Ground" :)
1-Yes, I agree with you. I don't think she knows all what is in Harry's head, but I think she has access of some of it. I don't know the details. That said, the explicit verbal communication between Harry and the queens was, I believe, a magic effect generated for the battle and not something that is always "on".
2-You are not the first in suggesting that Mab is grooming Lara as WL. In this same forum we argue that in several threads. I agree, only because that provides a way out for Molly. And because having Lara became a virgin, unable to have sex, would be very ironic. But besides that, I think that Mab wants to use the mundane connections and resources of the White Court. Lastly, she now knows that Lara needs to keep Harry alive, and she is providing a good way to her to be near him. And an engagement with the White Court would provide Harry with a good protection now that he is not White Council anymore.
3-Not proven, but I agree Mab knows Marcone (please, his name is Marcone) has Namshiel, and she is planning her revenge.
But did Mab know about Marcone before the ending meeting in BG? Seems like when Harry called him Sir she had an epiphany and I thought it was that she figured it out right then.
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I thought so too but after rereading that Mab puts her hand in Marcone shoulder I am pretty sure she felt it. Of course, it is my unproven theory. After all, Sir Marcone may be the honorific title for a Baron. All the Knights (including Harry) are Sir now, but that does not mean ONLY knights can use it.
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3. The last three books Mab has gotten way to close to the Baron of Chicago and I have thought that this was weird, until we find out that Marconi has a coin. I believe that she knows this and is keeping her enemies close, and she still has payback to Namshield for attaching her home. I thought Namshield was "N"infected, so now i wonder if Marconi is too?
I'm still not sure why she's so convinced it was Namshiel. Tessa and Rosanna are heckin' suspicious too.
If Namshiel and Marcone were infected, why fight against the Titan and the Fomor? They pretty much declared alliance with the Outsiders by coordinating the attack on Chicago with that on the Outer Gates.
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I thought so too but after rereading that Mab puts her hand in Marcone shoulder I am pretty sure she felt it. Of course, it is my unproven theory. After all, Sir Marcone may be the honorific title for a Baron. All the Knights (including Harry) are Sir now, but that does not mean ONLY knights can use it.
But in the text it is Sir Baron, the sir gets the stress while usually the baron title is more important. I think it is clear that Harry wants to communicate that Marcone has become a Sir.
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You are probably right in that, as you are more used to the nuances of "Sir" than I am. That said, beyond Harry's intentions, perhaps Mab already knew. I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she may detect a Fallen, or at least that the person is not entirely vanilla. I don't remember if Mab ever touched directly Marcone's skin, but if Harry can detect a practitioner with a handshake I am pretty sure that she can too.
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@dina your #2 made me laugh. That would be very ironic. And force her to rely on the mantle because she couldn't feed properly.
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You are probably right in that, as you are more used to the nuances of "Sir" than I am. That said, beyond Harry's intentions, perhaps Mab already knew. I don't think it's too far fetched to think that she may detect a Fallen, or at least that the person is not entirely vanilla. I don't remember if Mab ever touched directly Marcone's skin, but if Harry can detect a practitioner with a handshake I am pretty sure that she can too.
She figured something out though when Harry said that.
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1. I don't think Mab knew what Harry what up to until he asked his queen for her trust. I appeared to me it was at that moment that Mab became fully clued in to what Harry was about to attempt to pull off.
2. Mab's interest in the White Court does seem somewhat odd, so for now the idea she thinks Lara might make a good replacement seems a plausible one.
3. I also believe Harry communicated to Mab; and anyone else who was clued in; most likely Ivy and Odin, that Marcone was now one of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius. Mab's eyebrow went up and she said, "Much is explained." It had to be perplexing how an ordinary vanilla mortal could have survived a direct confrontation with Ethniu, even with Harry's help. Knowing Marcone had a fallen angel giving him advice and probably magical protection as well, made everything fall into place.
The next question is whether Mab knows that Thorned Namshiel is Marcone's new; ah, shall we say, business partner. Mab could put together a mental list of the Denarians whose coins Marcone might have picked up and then subtracted any Denarians known to be operating with Tessa and further narrow down the list by subtracting any outstanding fallen who don't give their host access to some pretty powerful protective magic. Thorned Namshiel would remain as a possible candidate on Mab's list, but I don't think we can say with certainty that Mab knows for sure. However, one thing is certain. Mab will want to find out; because it's in her nature, and I think that even without directly asking Harry which Denasrian's coin Marcone is holding, she will find out and she won't be pleased.
Actually, even worse for Baron Marcone would be if Mab is pleased to find out where Thorned Namshiel has been hiding. Marcone's statement to Harry in the castle dressing room can now be turned against him. ""And Mab will not protect you." After even minimal reflection at a future time, Harry will be likely to figure this out.
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By the way, I understand we don't see it on screen, but I assume Harry did tell the Knights about Marcone. If he didn't, I will be mad.
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By the way, I understand we don't see it on screen, but I assume Harry did tell the Knights about Marcone. If he didn't, I will be mad.
I would certainly hope so. Not that Harry should want or expect Sanya and Butters to go after Marcone as soon as their injuries heal, but as a professional curtesy Harry should inform them.
What bothers me is that Harry has never shared the fact that Nicodemus is vulnerable to being strangled by his own noose. It makes me wonder whether Harry did tell Sanya and Butters about Marcone.
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By the way, I understand we don't see it on screen, but I assume Harry did tell the Knights about Marcone. If he didn't, I will be mad.
Harry is not that good at telling people things.
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I know, but that fact is quite important and those are some of his BFF, those who had his back and saved him for killing a man with his magic. He definitely owns them the truth.
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I know, but that fact is quite important and those are some of his BFF, those who had his back and saved him for killing a man with his magic. He definitely owns them the truth.
Did he ever tell them that Anduriel listens from shadows for example? That is also pretty important
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I think Michael told him that :o
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I think Michael told him that :o
Kringle did.
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By the way, I understand we don't see it on screen, but I assume Harry did tell the Knights about Marcone. If he didn't, I will be mad.
Harry might worry that he shouldn't tell them because that would push them to do something. Harry does believe they are safest when they are being guided by the WG instead of him getting them involved.
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Harry might worry that he shouldn't tell them because that would push them to do something. Harry does believe they are safest when they are being guided by the WG instead of him getting them involved.
Oddly enough Marcone having the Coin causes Butters becoming a Knight of the Cross added emphasis given that he would be there to counteract Marcone's influence on the Paranet and its Chicago members.
As for Anduriel listening at the shadows on the Knights, those Swords house Angels as well and Anduriel been described as a bit of a coward. Given the 3 swords routinely counter 30 Coins I don't think cowardly is an adjective that can be applied to the Angels in the Swords.
On the Noose and its weakness, the Knights have said that they aren't there to destroy the holders of the Coins but to redeem them. That includes (however vexing it can be) Nicodemus and Deidre as Michael showed in Skin Game. The Weakness of the Noose only has value in killing Nicodemus.
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Agree about the noose.
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On the Noose and its weakness, the Knights have said that they aren't there to destroy the holders of the Coins but to redeem them. That includes (however vexing it can be) Nicodemus and Deidre as Michael showed in Skin Game. The Weakness of the Noose only has value in killing Nicodemus.
That is the bit that Murphy could not go along with, and why except for one night, she wasn't Holy Knight material.
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I believe that she knows this and is keeping her enemies close, and she still has payback to Namshield for attaching her home
Dunno, it seems in Battle Ground she get what's going on with Marcone only after Dresden outed him as Sir Baron.
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Dunno, it seems in Battle Ground she get what's going on with Marcone only after Dresden outed him as Sir Baron.
She should know, Marcone has been part of the Accords for some time. It was at his place that she used to spar with the einherjar.
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Murphy spared with E.
We're talking about whether Mab knew about Denarus.
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Murphy spared with E.
We're talking about whether Mab knew about Denarus.
Probably not. “Much is explained”
The question is does Mab still want payback from Namshiel.
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Probably not. “Much is explained”
The question is does Mab still want payback from Namshiel.
A thought just hit me as I was walking the dogs around the park. Maybe Mab wants to marry Harry off to Lara so she can feed on him and weaken him. This way she still has an effective Knight, but his power is kept in check so he is less likely to defy her.
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A thought just hit me as I was walking the dogs around the park. Maybe Mab wants to marry Harry off to Lara so she can feed on him and weaken him. This way she still has an effective Knight, but his power is kept in check so he is less likely to defy her.
Unlikely. She will need all his power the coming years and she is quite sure she can handle him. Everything points to Mab arranging Harry to become even more powerful. Maybe even immortal.
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I agree with Arjan, Mab prefers a powerful Harry.
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That is the bit that Murphy could not go along with, and why except for one night, she wasn't Holy Knight material.
Maybe that was what you meant, but that night also had the bonus of there being allmost no one who had to be saved from their own evil. Allmost like shooting zombies.
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Probably not. “Much is explained”
The question is does Mab still want payback from Namshiel.
My best guess is that Mab most definitely wants payback from Namshiel, but she's made an investment in Marcone. He's useful to Mab's plans. However, the thing about any investment; whether it's a financial or a business asset, is that eventually it get's used up, fully depreciated, depleted, scrapped or cashed out. If Marcone insists on holding onto his new partnership with Namshiel, Mab won't protect him from the consequences of his actions.
Plus, Marcone has made the same bet that he will remain in charge of all of his decisions; that Thorned Namshiel will remain the junior partner in their deal, that Nicodemus has claimed he has with Anduriel. If we see Marcone start to make questionable decisions, I mean decisions that run counter to the Marcone we know, it may be a sign that Marcone is losing his bet and it will be a time when Mab starts to think that Marcone's value to her has been seriously diminished, that maybe it's time to write him off.
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A thought just hit me as I was walking the dogs around the park. Maybe Mab wants to marry Harry off to Lara so she can feed on him and weaken him. This way she still has an effective Knight, but his power is kept in check so he is less likely to defy her.
I'm not sure exactly what she's going for. She seemed to imply she wanted the alliance cemented by the conception of a child to unite the bloodlines, but with the low fertility of whampires that can't be relied on any time soon. In Blood Rites, the figure was that humans in a long-term relationship with a whampire usually wear out within a few years even with care taken not to drain them in one shot.
So unless wizard and/or mantle markedly improves Harry's resilience to being fed on, Mab seems to be rolling the dice on whether this marriage idea is going to cost her Winter's starborn asset, maybe even before producing a child.
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My best guess is that Mab most definitely wants payback from Namshiel, but she's made an investment in Marcone. He's useful to Mab's plans. However, the thing about any investment; whether it's a financial or a business asset, is that eventually it get's used up, fully depreciated, depleted, scrapped or cashed out. If Marcone insists on holding onto his new partnership with Namshiel, Mab won't protect him from the consequences of his actions.
Plus, Marcone has made the same bet that he will remain in charge of all of his decisions; that Thorned Namshiel will remain the junior partner in their deal, that Nicodemus has claimed he has with Anduriel. If we see Marcone start to make questionable decisions, I mean decisions that run counter to the Marcone we know, it may be a sign that Marcone is losing his bet and it will be a time when Mab starts to think that Marcone's value to her has been seriously diminished, that maybe it's time to write him off.
Maybe I missed something but even if Mab figured out Marcone has a coin, was there something that would lead her to know it is Namshiel's coin?
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Maybe I missed something but even if Mab figured out Marcone has a coin, was there something that would lead her to know it is Namshiel's coin?
She was watching during that whole mess (and Small Favour had a lot of unexplained shenanigans, I should really do a post on that, it's nearly as overt as PG) and there aren't many coins available for him to have picked up at the end of that mess.
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She was watching during that whole mess (and Small Favour had a lot of unexplained shenanigans, I should really do a post on that, it's nearly as overt as PG) and there aren't many coins available for him to have picked up at the end of that mess.
Agreed. Plus, Mab can count; by which I mean she can subtract those fallen that wouldn't give the holder of their coin much of a chance of surviving Ethniu's full attention. Thorned Namshiel's coin would; at the very least, be one of the blackened denarius that Mab would suspect that Marcone had picked up. If she doesn't know for sure it will probably be a short matter of time before Mab can confirm whose coin Marcone is carrying.
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Agreed. Plus, Mab can count; by which I mean she can subtract those fallen that wouldn't give the holder of their coin much of a chance of surviving Ethniu's full attention. Thorned Namshiel's coin would; at the very least, be one of the blackened denarius that Mab would suspect that Marcone had picked up. If she doesn't know for sure it will probably be a short matter of time before Mab can confirm whose coin Marcone is carrying.
Especially since it's not like Harry will say no if she walks up and tells him his next mission is to write down which coin Marcone took up.
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Especially since it's not like Harry will say no if she walks up and tells him his next mission is to write down which coin Marcone took up.
I wondered if that was something Mab wouldn't directly ask Harry because it might be so valuable as to require Mab to pledge a favor in return. It all depends on Winter Law. Maybe Harry is required to answer such a question as part of his normal duties, maybe not. Mab could have asked Harry the last time they talked but didn't. Either she already knows or there is another reason Mab didn't ask.
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I wondered if that was something Mab wouldn't directly ask Harry because it might be so valuable as to require Mab to pledge a favor in return. It all depends on Winter Law. Maybe Harry is required to answer such a question as part of his normal duties, maybe not. Mab could have asked Harry the last time they talked but didn't. Either she already knows or there is another reason Mab didn't ask.
If scales have to be balanced there is enough Mab can tell Harry to do so but I think that stage has passed. They are allowed to tell each other important things.
For example Harry asked Mab how she could handle Balors eye and she not only gives an answer, she even explains it.
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Probably not. “Much is explained”
The question is does Mab still want payback from Namshiel.
Here I think the clear answer is that Mab want payback for anything anyone ever did to winter. It is problably a lot deeper than wants. It is a pretty good setup for the eventual Harry/Marcone showdown. The question is how one gets payback on Namshiel, I guess the Island is a good option? But I wonder if the nature of the coins to be in circulation would be a security risk for the entire island?
Regarding whether or not Lara and Harry can make a child and how long it will take. I am sure that the queen of air and darkness can do more than cross her fingers and hope for the best, to the degree that if she things it should happen in the first try (and why not) it will. By the way, the leash that Mab is putting on Harry is not the marriage, it is the child. Mab knows how he is and there is no better way to get him invested in the marriage than a common child. No matter how Lara turns out, could he kill his childs mother/let her get killed (again)?
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But I really hope we don't have more children. Harry is protected for now and I am hoping he will weasel his way off the wedding because frankly a married Harry does not sound interesting. And I am always missing non-dad Harry.
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Mab has a very simple option to remove Harry's protection at any time and Harry would be duty bound to acquiesce to it :)
If she feels it's necessary, she'd do so in a heartbeat.
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Yes but that would be like pupeeteering Harry. And he had warned her that if she did that, he would become completely obedient and useless for her. If Mab really tries to do something like that, it will be bad for her. What makes Harry so valuable for her (Starborn apart) is, as she said, the chaos elemental part. I think she knows that trying to leash it would be a mistake.
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Yes but that would be like pupeeteering Harry. And he had warned her that if she did that, he would become completely obedient and useless for her. If Mab really tries to do something like that, it will be bad for her. What makes Harry so valuable for her (Starborn apart) is, as she said, the chaos elemental part. I think she knows that trying to leash it would be a mistake.
Mab wants a Harry that shares her purpose.
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Yes, her purpose being whatever is best for Winter. If pressing Harry to do something he really did not want makes him a lesser tool than giving him some freedom, she will give him that freedom. Harry understands that she has the right to marry him, but I believe that forcing him to lost the protection, which is something that keeps him bound to Murphy, will be something that Harry won't take well. Anyway, we will see in some years.
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Yes, her purpose being whatever is best for Winter. If pressing Harry to do something he really did not want makes him a lesser tool than giving him some freedom, she will give him that freedom. Harry understands that she has the right to marry him, but I believe that forcing him to lost the protection, which is something that keeps him bound to Murphy, will be something that Harry won't take well. Anyway, we will see in some years.
Her purpose is stopping the outsiders. It is the whole reason for the existence of winter in the first place.
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Reason of Winter being most powerful force around. But they serve as guardians of Outer Gates for about millenium IIRC and Faerie Courts are definitely older.
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It doesn't matter to my point. Or better, it only reinforces it, as a starborn is more valuable. No, Mab will not risk really pissing Harry off. It would be a waste of all what she already invested on him.
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I'm not sure exactly what she's going for. She seemed to imply she wanted the alliance cemented by the conception of a child to unite the bloodlines, but with the low fertility of whampires that can't be relied on any time soon. In Blood Rites, the figure was that humans in a long-term relationship with a whampire usually wear out within a few years even with care taken not to drain them in one shot.
So unless wizard and/or mantle markedly improves Harry's resilience to being fed on, Mab seems to be rolling the dice on whether this marriage idea is going to cost her Winter's starborn asset, maybe even before producing a child.
It took an infected Justine under 2 years and 2 months to get pregnant while trying.
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It took an infected Justine under 2 years and 2 months to get pregnant while trying.
We don't know how long she was trying really.
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We don't know how long she was trying really.
It wasn't longer than that, so it was definitely under 2 years and 2 months. GS took place 12 years after SF on May 9. PT takes place in July two years later.