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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on February 03, 2018, 03:56:49 PM
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New Theory: I was on discord conversing with some members there. And, I wondered about the cosmic powers wanting to get a child from Harry's. This partly arose by similar plots in Amber whereby so many powers tend to want Merlin to hook up with this person or that. So, I broached the idea that Elaine and Harry may have had a child together. That Elaine was pregnant at the time of Harry defeating Justin. I included the following conversation where the original thoughts sprang from. After his conversation, I had time to reflect on it. I am now wondering if Harry/Elaine's daughter is also Faith Astor who then becomes Kumori. On subsequent reflection, I tend to believe that a Elaine=Kumori fit is a better one but still with Elaine having a daughter with Harry.
[11:08 AM] raidem: Yesterday, I was wondering if Elaine may have had a child with Harry.
[11:09 AM] ZQKing: Let's go with no
[11:09 AM] raidem: I would think that the higher powers would want to get Harry's kid.
[11:09 AM] Boustrophedonic: Obviously that child is Kumori
[11:09 AM] spaghettimonster: here we go again
crawls into the fortified bunker marked 'In Case of Raidem Theories'(edited)
[11:09 AM] Boustrophedonic: /s
[11:10 AM] raidem: Hmm. Kumori being Elaine's/Harry daughter?(edited)
[11:10 AM] spaghettimonster: @Boustrophedonic stop giving him ideas
[11:10 AM] Boustrophedonic: Any kid they'd have would be about 25
[11:10 AM] raidem: I like it.
[11:10 AM] Boustrophedonic: If my math is right
[11:10 AM] ZQKing: I mean, let's go with a rough estimate that the last time they were together he was 16 or younger, she'd be in her twenties or close to thirties
[11:10 AM] ZQKing: nowhere near strong enough to ahve the kind of juice kumori has
[11:11 AM] ZQKing: Unless t i m e t r a v e l
[11:11 AM] raidem: It would fit with WOJL about Kumori's identity cause Harry pain.
[11:11 AM] Boustrophedonic: Harry was 25ish in Storm front
[11:11 AM] ZQKing: Wish we could find a source on the WOJ rai
[11:11 AM] raidem: I'll search google.
[11:12 AM] Boustrophedonic: @ZQKing or magical deals/natural talent/being the daughter of two Starborn
[11:14 AM] raidem: It makes sense. Hey it is a new theory based on my speculation about Elaine having a child with Harry, and then Boustrophedonic adding it is Kumori
[11:14 AM] Boustrophedonic: I have heard dumber theories on Kumori's identity(edited)
[11:14 AM] raidem: We and Boustrophedonic came up with a new theory (he did the Kumori part).
[11:14 AM] raidem: I like it.(edited)
[11:15 AM] raidem: I'll add it to the Forum.
[11:16 AM] raidem: Bous, you can add it to reddit if you want
[11:16 AM] Boustrophedonic: I was mostly fucking around,
[11:17 AM] raidem: It would also explain why people, Justin, brought two potential Starborn together.
[11:17 AM] raidem: And he wanted both to develop a sexual relationship.
[11:17 AM] raidem: It follows then that someone had a possible plan whereby Elaine would get pregnant.
[11:18 AM] raidem: It just depends on whether or not Harry and Elaine had sufficient time to do so.
[11:18 AM] Boustrophedonic: It hinges on the "Cowl=Justin" theory, where I believe that cowl is actually Simon
[11:18 AM] raidem: It works then too.
[11:18 AM] raidem: It also will piss off Harry all the more.
[11:19 AM] raidem: IdHarry tells Harry to protect the offspring.
[11:21 AM] Boustrophedonic: Oh duh, Simon and Justin used to work together
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Now, I'm thinking maybe that Faith Astor is Harry and Elaine's daughter.
We know that Faith Astor kicks off the BAT, now we may know why she might be so important.
: There were already theories that had Faith Astor as Kumori. This just links Faith to be Harry's daughter. I had long ago suggested that Faith Astor was Harry's daughter, but I linked her to a future child of Harry's.
I had argued that Harry sort of named "Faith" in Restoration of Faith.
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if so maybe the reason Elaine stayed home was due to morning sickness.
it would also explain why she didn't have the courage to face the white council as Dresden did when she hadn't violated any laws at all, and was a clear victim
in her place being pregnant and the extreme drive a mother has to protect her offspring would tip the scales to completely hiding from the white council.
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I hadn't thought of the 'morning sickness.'
Faith Astor
parent’s dream at eight or nine years old, with her dimples and dark pigtails—even in her street-stained schoolgirl’s uniform. And she had strong legs.
“Ten,” shouted the girl, furious. “I’m ten, you insensitive jerk!” She started kicking again, and I kept myself more or less out of the way of her feet.
Harry's duster: “It belongs on the set of El Dorado,” she snapped. “Who are you supposed to be, Ichabod Crane or the Marlboro Man?” I snorted. “I’m a wizard.”
“So you can vapor him?” she asked, her voice unsteady. “Hell, no. So we can run.” “But what about . . . ?” She touched the ring on my hand. “I lied, kid.” “What!?” “I lied,” I repeated. “I’m not a good liar, but trolls aren’t too bright. It was just a light show, but he fell for it, and that’s all that counts.”
“So go on. I’ll walk up to the police after you’re gone. Or something.” She was lying. I’m not sure how I could tell, but I could.
I took a breath, in the dark, and asked, “What’s your name?” She was silent for a moment and then said, in a very uncertain voice, “Faith.”
“Faith,” I said. I smiled, so that she could hear it. “My name’s Harry Dresden.” “Hi,” she said, her voice a whisper. “Hi. Have you ever seen something like this?” I cupped my hand, summoned some of the last dregs of my power, and cast a warm, glowing light into the ring on my right hand. It lit Faith’s face, and I could see on her smooth cheeks the streaks of the tears I had not heard. She shook her head.
This reminds me of IdHarry's command "protect the offspring."
Her fingers felt very small and very warm inside of mine, and a fierce surge of determination coursed through me. No matter what happened, I would let no harm come to this child.
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EG points out a wrinkle in the timeline and I respond with a counterpoint that Elaine sought shelter from Titania in Summer. The nevernever may have different rates of time in relation to Earth time so the (Harry/Elaine child being Faith can't be rules out via Earth timeline.)
[12:54 PM] -EG-: Because everyone who has a kid is a good parent, or has that kid for the right reasons?
"I fell silent for several paces as I carried her. It was hard to hear that from a kid. A ten-year-old girl's world should be full of music and giggling and notes and dolls and dreams-not harsh, barren, jaded reality." -Restoration of Faith
The timeline has this story at 2 or 3 years prior to Storm Front. Making him 22-23 years old. Which means Elaine would have had to have given birth at 12 or 13, and that they had sex at 12 or 13. These two were inseparable growing up, Harry's not gonna notice her pregnant, the first girl he ever loved?
Just because Harry stuck it in something doesn't mean he's gonna have a kid everytime.(edited)
[12:57 PM] ZQKing: Good eye n the timeline.
[1:01 PM] raidem: Yep, the timeline screws the theory up for Faith Astor, unless she gets placed in the nevernever.
[1:01 PM] raidem: We do know Elaine sought shelter from Titania.
[1:02 PM] raidem: So, Elaine could be pregnant at 16, goes to the nevernever and Faith Astor's apparent age between nevernever and when she resorts to Earth Time is 10 years at time of Restoration of Faith.(edited)
[1:07 PM] raidem: Actually, another thing from Amber series is the fact that these differences in rates of time in the shadows vs Amber allows for main characters to encounter their great grandchildren
[1:08 PM] raidem: So, it wouldn't be a stretch to figure that there is some age distortion in the background with regard to some of Harry's potential progeny. And, this doesn't even require time travel, just visits/some life within the nevernever.(edited)
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Timeline doesn't work out. For Harry to not know, Elaine would have had to be pregnant shortly before everything went to hell, otherwise he'd have seen the signs. Harry is 16 when that happens. He's 23 or 24 when he meets Faith, who is emphatic about her being 10 years old.
ALSO, Jim has already done the "secret kid" thing once before, it'd be bad story telling to go to that well again.
ALSO ALSO, there's no evidence whatsoever that Faith was adopted.
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I just pointed out the NeverNever as a means to make Faith Astor's age not line up with the Timeline. Elaine did in fact seek shelter in Summer, part of the Nevernever that may have different rates of time relative to Earth Time.
So, around Harry's and Elaine's age of 16, Harry defeats Justin and burns down the house. Pregnant Elaine would be 16'ish. She sought shelter in Summer where she gave birth to Faith. Faith's age of 10 includes part of NeverNever age and part of Earth time.
ALSO, Jim has already done the "secret kid" thing once before, it'd be bad story telling to go to that well again.
Jim has already done the "secret kid" twice. Maggie Jr. and then Bonnie. No reason to stop now.
ALSO ALSO, there's no evidence whatsoever that Faith was adopted.
The Astors treat Faith as a trophy of the perfect child for their parties, then really have little to do with her other than that. I don't think that has the feel of real Mother/Father child bond. When the parents find out that Faith has escaped they hire Harry and Nick to retrieve her. Then Lie about Harry and Nick having kidnapped them. The Parents are already engaged in deceit, deception. I see no reason why their parentage of Faith isn't deception too.
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Yeah, but living in the NN for a long period of time does bad things to humans, unless they were importing food for her and her kid. And as far as I recall, we don't have any evidence that Elaine actually was living in the NN, just under the protection of Titania, who we saw has other sites in the real world. Plus, when Harry tries to reach out to Elaine, he's running through the changes to her Name to try to make contact, and having a kid would be a major part of that that he doesn't take into account.
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"I got out of the house before you and Justin were finished," she said finally. "His spells had begun to unravel, and I was struggling against them. Confused, terrified. I must have run. I don't even remember doing it." "But where have you been?" I asked. "Elaine, I looked for you for years. Years." "Where you couldn't have found me, Harry. You or anyone else. I found sanctuary. A place to hide. But there was a price, and that's why I'm here." She looked up at me, and though her features were calm and smooth, I could see the fear in her eyes, hear it coloring her voice. "I'm in trouble."
We later find out that Titania provided that shelter.
"It's complicated," she said. "But the short version is that I was granted asylum by the Summer Court of the Sidhe."
That suggests Elaine sought shelter in the Summer Court. And, we know that Harry survived with Earth food for a few months in Arctis Tor with mortal food. I don't think it is beyond impossibility that food, etc was provided for Elaine and her child, if she had one. It could mean, if true, that Elaine is protecting her child from being known.
I think we need to keep track of all of Harry's flings, to include Harry's fling with Mab on the stone table. We don't know exactly what all became of that. I mean we saw that a Bonnie was created via a Fallen's shadow and Harry. Harry banging Mab on a Stone Table in a region where the Stone Table exists may be more "Real" in a qualitative manner than even in the real world. Harry did after all sacrifice Slate on the Stone Table. He had as much physicality to do that. This then opens the question as to what becomes of this possible conception. I mean if we go down this angle I could have Marcone, Faith Astor, or some other figures as potentially being Mab/Harry's offspring but with a timetravel origin.
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Yes, but we've also seen that both Winter and Summer have outposts in the real world, in the under city for Winter and wherever that building was for Summer.
Basically, for Faith to be Harry's kid, the following needs to be true.
Elaine got pregnant shortly before everything went to hell
AND she found shelter with Summer in the Never-Never
AND it was a part of the Never-Never that was at a higher speed
AND she then gave up that child
AND that child somehow didn't remember any of the other stuff in the Never-Never despite living there for at least two years, and probably more
AND Elaine didn't mention it to Harry
AND didn't even let it affect her enough to change her Name
AND she then got adopted by a family in the same city in which Harry was living
AND her adopted parents decided to call Harry's boss to get her back when she ran away Admittedly, this doesn't require the assumptions, given that it's a strong focus of the company Harry worked for
VS
Faith is the biological child of jackass parents who live in Chicago
And that's without getting into her being Kumori on top of that.
Granted, technically, if you're willing to bring time travel into it (again) I can't authoritatively disprove it. But it requires so many specific, highly unlikely, things to happen, it's really not a reasonable theory.
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I'll file it under possibility, as one of my crazy wags. It springs though from the belief that the powers would want to have Harry's offspring. And, what better way to get an offspring than to engineer the situation to get it.
I'm also reminded of this exchange between Harry and Maeve.
Maeve idly stretched out a hand. A goblet of some golden liquid appeared in her fingers and rimed over with frost as I watched. She took a sip of the drink, whatever it was, and then said, "First, I will name my price."
"There'd better be a blue light special. I don't have much to trade, all things considered."
"True. I cannot ask for a claim over you, because Queen Mab has that already. But let me see." She tapped a fingernail to her lips again and then said, "Your issue."
"Eh?" I said, glibly. "Your issue, wizard," she said, toying with a violet dreadlock. "Your offspring. Your firstborn. And in exchange I will give you the knowledge you seek."
"News flash, Goldilocks. I don't have any children."
Maeve laughed. "Naturally not. But the details could be arranged."
Evidently that was a cue. The dark pool of maybe-water stirred, drawing my eye. Ripples whispered as they lapped at the edges of the pool.
"What's that?" Billy whispered to me.
The waters parted, and a Sidhe girl rose out of the pool. She was tall, slender, water sliding down over pale, naked, supple curves.
It seems to me that Maeve may know something about Harry's 'firstborn' or Harry having one that Harry is clueless about. And if not, it still proves the point that the powers are interested in getting offspring from Harry.
Remember, Lasciel just relished the thought of getting Bonnie because it partly sprang from Harry.
It makes me wonder now if Mab had at any point taken advantage of Harry, unbeknownst to him, to obtain a child with him.
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And that's without getting into her being Kumori on top of that.
Yeah, the Kumori bit is just adding an additional layer of improbabilities on top. I think it is good to examine it though. Had I not investigated the Elaine/Harry have a child theory, the Kumori being that child wouldn't have been explored, nor would the Faith Astor being the child get explored.
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Except that Maeve specifically says Harry doesn't have a kid. And going off her apparent desire to make the firstborn, it suggests that's what she's thinking of.
Granted, maybe she could lie even then, but I'm skeptical of that.
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Granted, maybe she could lie even then, but I'm skeptical of that.
Harry points out to Maeve that she violated guest right during that meeting.
polite. "Sorry, sweetie, but I have a couple problems with that offer." Maeve's lips tightened. "And those would be?" "One. I'm not handing over a child to you. Not mine, not anyone's, not now, and not ever. If you had a brain in your head, you'd have known that." Maeve's already pale face blanched even more, and she sat bolt upright on her throne. "You dare—" "Shut up," I snarled, and it came out loud enough to ring off the walls of the ballroom. "I'm not finished." Maeve jerked as though I'd slapped her. Her mouth dropped open, and she blinked at me. "I came here under your invitation and protection. I am your guest. But in spite of that you've thrown glamour at me anyway." I stood up, my hands spread on the table, leaning toward her for emphasis. "I don't have time for this crap. You don't scare me, lady," I said. "I only came here for answers—but if you keep pushing me, I'm going to push back. Hard."
She violated Winter Law regarding Guest Rights. I think at this point she is infected.
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That I chalk up to one of those "if you can get away with it" things. Harry certainly doesn't react as though it's an outright impossibility.
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Yeah. I don't think it is an impossibility either. It may/may not be Winter Law. It is however something 'wrong' to do when it comes to supernatural powers.
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"Your offspring. Your firstborn. And in exchange I will give you the knowledge you seek."
"News flash, Goldilocks. I don't have any children."
Maeve laughed. "Naturally not. But the details could be arranged."
Does the "naturally not" instead of "no" add to some wiggle room.
I don't have any children. Naturally...No.
The question then is can Maeve say "unnaturally not."
Naturally:
Naturally: You use naturally to indicate that you think something is very obvious and not at all surprising in the circumstances.
Hah. Maeve just told him right then he was wrong. She agreed it was very obvious and not all all suprising, then negated everything when she added NOT to it. Harry and we took it to mean she had agreed with Harry. Her phrase however allows for another meaning which is what the fae do. They lie to you by twisting the truth and words.
Anyways, for Faith to be Kumori, without anymore NN and time travel, she would be around 16ish at the time of Grave Peril, 20ish at the time of Dead Beat. I'd argue however that it is clear Kumori has traveled the NN so her age can be skewed as a result.
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Naturally not is not the same as "not naturally."
In fact, your dictionary use there specifically does NOT say that she told him he was wrong. She thinks it's obviously that he doesn't have any kids.
Theoretically, she could simply be wrong. Elaine is under Summer's protection, not Winters, so she might just not know.
But then we're back to the laundry list of unlikely issues that all need to have happened for Harry to have a yet another extra unknown kid.
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Yeah, I'm sorry, but no. Naturally is modifying Not, rather than Not modifying Naturally. Arguing otherwise is getting into some Humpty Dumpty "When I use a word, it means what I choose it to mean, nothing more, nothing less" stuff.
You want to argue that she is wrong, sure. But to argue that "Naturally not" REALLY means "Yes." No. Absolutely not.
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Fine, I'll drop that argument and simply fall back to she can lie.
She is aware of an existing offspring of Harry's and she wants Harry to make a deal concerning (him,her). We know that in the very same book where Maeve is talking about Harry's offspring, Harry's lover (Elaine) years ago comes back on seen and is in a big plot to unbalance Winter and SUmmer. Elaine is debted to Summer. It makes sense that Maeve would want to gain influence over Elaine. She even tries to immediately after this conversation when the WK comes back with Elaine's blood on a dagger. It was burnt with fire however.
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So I should just go and then add to the list of assumptions we need to make for Faith to be Harry's kid that Maeve can already lie as of SK, AND knows about Elaine's kid, AND Summer doesn't already have a claim on said kid, AND that she wants the kid who is already grown up quite a bit, rather than wants to make her own kid like literally everything about that exchange suggests.
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I didn't say that:
rather than wants to make her own kid like literally everything about that exchange suggests.
It would be a complimentary action. *(Maeve wants control of Harry's firstborn) and Harry's kid via Jenny. We simply don't know, yay or nay, if a child with Jenny Greenteeth would be the "firstborn."
The possibility exists that Elaine was pregnant via Harry and Elaine having sexual relationship prior to their departure.
I'd also point to Maeve's laugh
Maeve laughed. "Naturally not. But the details could be arranged."
I'm kinda suspicious when Maeve agrees and laughs.
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Will we ever see Faith from the Restoration of Faith short story in a mainstream Dresden Files book?
Yes, we will, but not until the big ending. Faith was the first character and more or less the first client of Dresden’s that I ever wrote in that first little short story. So she will show up again to kick off the big apocalyptic trilogy at the end.
Faith Astor is a very important character if her appearance and interaction with Harry is going to jumpstart the BAT.
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There are lots of very important characters who aren't Harry's kid. In fact, the vast majority of very important characters aren't Harry's kid.
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True.
I include this just so that I can include my previous thoughts on the matter that got shredded by the year end monster.
Another tack that I had taken previously was to think that Bonnie and Faith was somehow merged into a Archive that was sent back in time to begin the Archive line.
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If Kumori is a daughter of Dresden I'd think it was Maggie from the future. Cowl would be manipulating her into thinking they were going to save Harry from either A. Dying, or B. going bat shit crazy evil.
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My other theory for Kumori was Maggie Sr. I believe after I posed the Kumori=MaggieSr. theory others jumped instead on the Maggie Jr. theory.
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My other theory for Kumori was Maggie Sr, prior to Changes. That is when people came out with the Maggie Jr. ones.
If Maggie Sr is Kumori I see her brought back via necromancy, and although she is "alive" she is bound to the one who brought her back, and under their (Cowl) control. Either that or she lost her memories while retaining the overall personality of Maggie sr.
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My take was that she was a Time Traveling Maggie Sr.
Hmm, now that I think about it and what Lea may have done with her, I'm wondering about your angle instead, but with Lea perhaps holding some of the strings and Cowl not knowing about it.
We have WOJ about what Harry would do to Lea if he ever found out what she did to Maggie Sr. It partly played in with Maggie Sr. not adequately phrasing the deal as she was in a hurry. So I think there were two issues with the deal Maggie Sr made, one was for herself, the other was about Harry.
Oh, no. What about a skinwalker like Goodman Grey taking her place, or going so far as essentially becoming Maggie Sr. That would mean though Kumori isn't really Maggie Sr but a doppleganger derived from Maggie Sr in part.
We know that Hell believes Maggie Sr escaped the "Dark Prince's" grasp, so Maggie Sr died and her soul passed on. Lea could have taken her ghost, fed it with Maggie Sr's blood, then animated it to take Kumori's spot. (Uhh.. now we have an undead Kumori with wizard powers)
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We know that Hell believes Maggie Sr escaped the "Dark Prince's" grasp, so Maggie Sr died and her soul passed on. Lea could have taken her ghost, fed it with Maggie Sr's blood, then animated it to take Kumori's spot.
What's that about???
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That is in Fool Moon.
"Indeed," Chauncy agreed. "Your mother was a most direct and willful woman. Her loss was a great sadness to all of us." I blinked, startled, and the pencil fell from my fingers. I stared at the demon for a moment. "You … you knew my mother? You knew Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden?" Chauncy regarded me without expression or emotion. "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end." "What do you mean? What are you talking about?"
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Oh, and the feed ghost blood is something that occurs in Amber series. It makes them more enduring. So, we could have Cowl going around with Maggie Sr. 'ghost.' It could explain why Cowl had a necromancy shield with him the whole time and we weren't seeing it.
Remember Harry had to have Sue to get close to the Darkhallow. Corpustaker had the Indian guys. Grevane had the
I forget who had what, but we never saw what Cowl had with him which shielded him from Darkhallow energies. What if Kumori was an undead person.
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though under a different name
That sounds like a Mantle! Interesting....
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You knew Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden?" Chauncy regarded me without expression or emotion. "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end."
Margaret Gwendolyn McCoy
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Or LeFey
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Margaret Gwendolyn McCoy
Yeah that's true... However te Mantle idea is more fun lol... I mean Jim said all the Senior Council members have basically super secret shit. Harry has a Mantle and is young. Molly has a Mantle... I find it hard to believe that a trouble maker like Maggie at around 100 years of age didn't have one.
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Good point.
They all have Aces up their sleeves.
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coming late to the thread.
So if Harry and Elaine had a secret child and she turned out to be Kumori, is there any reason Elaine couldn't be Cowl?
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Cowl had lots of cuts on his, her arms. Harry was pretty sure it was a him.
I haven't concluded that the secret child is kumori as Elaine and a few others seem good alternatives but I do like the idea that faith is the secret child.
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coming late to the thread.
So if Harry and Elaine had a secret child and she turned out to be Kumori, is there any reason Elaine couldn't be Cowl?
Harry could have been fooled, but I believe with some confidence he was able to recognize Cowl as male.
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The Amber series has there "Cowl" figure end up being a female behind a mask. Same female ends up being involved in a "I love you" plot. She also was an ex-girlfriend of the protagonist.
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Next thought, a necroed Kim Delaney is Kumori.
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The Amber series has there "Cowl" figure end up being a female behind a mask. Same female ends up being involved in a "I love you" plot. She also was an ex-girlfriend of the protagonist.
This is a discussion about The Dresden Files. Not for the Chronicles of Amber. It's a fine series, but it really has nothing to do with the plot of Dresden.
I am firmly in the "no" camp on this theory. There's nothing in any of Faith's interactions with Harry that suggest any kind of connection at all, there's nothing in her behavior that suggests she has had any experience with the Nevernever, let alone having lived there for a chunk of her life, and shoehorning her into Harry's backstory does nothing to benefit the series as a whole and requires jumping through far too many hoops for it to make any amount of sense.
I don't see any point to it, and frankly it cheapens the series to have everything come from such a small world that everybody in it has to be intrinsically connected. It's like having Anakin build C-3PO.
Characters can appear in the series without having been previously connected to everyone else.
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How about faith uses his name to draw them both back to that moment and the core of who he is? IDK Harry's core has ever really changed since then but... what if she's been saying his name and believing in him all this time, shaping him into the hero we know without his knowledge? just a fun idea.
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This is a discussion about The Dresden Files. Not for the Chronicles of Amber. It's a fine series, but it really has nothing to do with the plot of Dresden.
It may or may not. Jim enjoys taking ideas from other stories, and giving them as he said "a fresh coat of paint". If he was inspired by some elements from Chronicles of Amber then there could be some similar things that pop up in the Dresden Files.