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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 21, 2020, 02:45:09 AM
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Exactly who was watching Justine and why?
We know Lara had her people watching Justine. That makes sense.
Harry hired Goodman Grey to watch Justine. That makes sense.
People from the Chicago PD and the local FBI office were watching Justine. Why?
Goodman Grey told Harry that Agent Tilly wasn’t involved; as far as he good see, but it was people from the same local FBI office. Could these FBI agents have been doing surveillance for the benefit of the Librarian’s? I imagine these “Men in Black” are small in number and might occasionally need help from other more traditional Federal agencies, but that’s just a guess.
That still doesn’t tell us why the Librarians or any mortal agency would be interested in Justine. Someone would have to have some pretty detailed records about the White Court to want to put surveillance on her or at least know that she was Thomas Raith’s lover and that he was involved in a hit of a major supernatural power.
However, that knowledge could only come from someone well connected within the supernatural community. So not someone like the Alphas or most paraneters, with the exception of Paranoid Gary. It could have come from within any of the major powers, but that doesn’t tell us why someone in the know would share that information with mortals. However, for the sake of argument let’s say someone traded this information with the Librarians. What about the Chicago PD?
My guess is that whoever started the investigation against Harry and Murphy was the same group or person who put Chicago PD personnel to watch Justine, but why? She had nothing to do with the break in at Marcone’s bank. Originally, I thought that whoever was working for the Outsiders was behind Rudolph and his partner, but why would HWWBs put surveillance on itself? This suggests another party is involved. Just a guess, but we haven’t heard anything about the late Wizard Peabody’s partner; the one whose presence Harry felt on Demonreach, since Turn Coat. Whoever was responsible, it doesn't explain how they gained enough influence within the Chicago PD to get the investigation started.
These are just rough guesses. They are not even deeply worked out WAG’s.
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Cowl maybe? Frankly I was surprised he didn't show in either of the books. He could have been
the one who set the corner hounds on Harry and Eb.
Well, since we know now that mortals can get infested by Nemesis, why couldn't someone on the police force or in the F.B.I. be as well. Maybe they weren't watching Justine so much as watching to
see how well their plan was unfolding? Justine/HWWBeside did say the purpose of her getting pregnant was a distraction.
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Whoever was responsible, it doesn't explain how they gained enough influence within the Chicago PD to get the investigation started.
Mind control, bribery, blackmail, and coercion are always options.
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One possibility is that Justine(HWWBs) sicced them on herself as a ploy to get them looking at Lara or just for the chaos factor. More of preparing the way type of activity?
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One possibility is that Justine(HWWBs) sicced them on herself as a ploy to get them looking at Lara or just for the chaos factor. More of preparing the way type of activity?
Yup, Justine/HWWBs suggested that very thing, distractions. To drill down on it even more, consider, when Harry went to see Justine to tell her about Thomas, he couldn't put his finger on it, but he felt that something was off about her reaction. Justine/HWWBs knows that Harry is a decent detective and can be like a chicken on a bug when something gets in his head.. So immediate distraction, corner hounds, then police and F.B.I., Harry is no longer concentrating on her, he has other problems.
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Maybe the Librarians are already on the job. Vadderung hinted as much.
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They were watching Thomas and Justine because the rest of the White Court are inaccessible at Chateau Raith. This means someone interested in the White Court, rather than just Justine so it could be the White Council, could be the Librarians, could be Summer interested in Mab cosying up to them, it is their job to keep an eye on Winter and it would be remiss of them not to.
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They were watching Thomas and Justine because the rest of the White Court are inaccessible at Chateau Raith. This means someone interested in the White Court, rather than just Justine so it could be the White Council, could be the Librarians, could be Summer interested in Mab cosying up to them, it is their job to keep an eye on Winter and it would be remiss of them not to.
I think it more manipulation by Nemesis. It already had it's hooks in further back into the White Court, so relations of Vittorio might have further pushed things along once Justine/HWWBs got pregnant and pushed Thomas. Also furthered a move to fracture the Accords.
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Nemesis was already inside the White Court, so its more likely someone interested in the White Court for themselves. All the Accord Nations spy on each other, that’s a given.
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They were watching Thomas and Justine because the rest of the White Court are inaccessible at Chateau Raith. This means someone interested in the White Court, rather than just Justine so it could be the White Council, could be the Librarians, could be Summer interested in Mab cosying up to them, it is their job to keep an eye on Winter and it would be remiss of them not to.
Could be a run of the mill corruption case. Lara is involved in corruption, but it's probably through mind control instead of the usual means. (It's probably not because this is the Dresden Files).
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However, that knowledge could only come from someone well connected within the supernatural community. So not someone like the Alphas or most paraneters, with the exception of Paranoid Gary. It could have come from within any of the major powers, but that doesn’t tell us why someone in the know would share that information with mortals. However, for the sake of argument let’s say someone traded this information with the Librarians. What about the Chicago PD?
My guess is that whoever started the investigation against Harry and Murphy was the same group or person who put Chicago PD personnel to watch Justine, but why? She had nothing to do with the break in at Marcone’s bank. Originally, I thought that whoever was working for the Outsiders was behind Rudolph and his partner, but why would HWWBs put surveillance on itself? This suggests another party is involved. Just a guess, but we haven’t heard anything about the late Wizard Peabody’s partner; the one whose presence Harry felt on Demonreach, since Turn Coat. Whoever was responsible, it doesn't explain how they gained enough influence within the Chicago PD to get the investigation started.
Why do you think the Alphas don't know about Justine and Thomas' relationship? Andi was in on Molly & Justine's rescue mission in Bombshells.
I wonder if the police connection might have been the Fomor bribing Rudolph and other corrupt cops. We know they have lines in that department from Molly talking about using illusions to trick some of them to death. The Fomor remember Justine from ripping them off in Even Hand, but if they're just pawns of the Outsiders, they might not know exactly who's Nemfected.
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Cowl maybe? Frankly I was surprised he didn't show in either of the books. He could have been
the one who set the corner hounds on Harry and Eb.
I think Cowl is a solid choice as the individual who called up the corner hounds. I believe Jim has said Cowl has been offscreen in at least one other book so in my mind that makes him an even better candidate.
If Cowl stuck around after he called up the corner hounds that would mean Goodman Grey was wrong. There was another party watching Justine that he didn't know about. Of course, Goodman Grey was right when he told Harry that Justine was a femme fatale, sort of.
Well, since we know now that mortals can get infested by Nemesis, why couldn't someone on the police force or in the F.B.I. be as well. Maybe they weren't watching Justine so much as watching to
see how well their plan was unfolding? Justine/HWWBeside did say the purpose of her getting pregnant was a distraction.
I think there must be a limit to the number of people Nemesis can infect. To me, getting into the police or FBI seems to be spreading itself a bit thin.
Why do you think the Alphas don't know about Justine and Thomas' relationship? Andi was in on Molly & Justine's rescue mission in Bombshells.
I wasn't clear in my writing. I meant they wouldn't know that Thomas had attempted to kill the Swarthalf king. That's pretty specific information to gain knowledge of in such a short period of time. I don't think Paranoid Gary would share this information with everyone. He would be able to guess how dangerous it could be to let the world know everything he found out. The Alphas hearing that something big and possibly dangerous was about to happen is much more reasonable.
I wonder if the police connection might have been the Fomor bribing Rudolph and other corrupt cops. We know they have lines in that department from Molly talking about using illusions to trick some of them to death. The Fomor remember Justine from ripping them off in Even Hand, but if they're just pawns of the Outsiders, they might not know exactly who's Nemfected.
I like the Fomor bribing corrupt cops. It's simple and effective, plus they've done it before.
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I think there must be a limit to the number of people Nemesis can infect. To me, getting into the police or FBI seems to be spreading itself a bit thin.
It may or may not be, just how many Outsiders are there? When Harry figures out that Justine is infected and calls it out. It says "Nemesis I am called." Then on the next page, Harry says he doesn't care what it is called, he wanted to know it's name. The answer, "I am He Who Walks Beside."
So is Nemesis the true name of the Outsiders collectively? Can they infect and uninfect? As in can they possess a being temporarily? HWWBs makes it clear to Harry that it's mission in getting Justine pregnant to influence Thomas was a diversion. Infesting someone like Rudolph to push him to suddenly go after Murphy and Harry was to go after the one person, if given enough time could figure out their game. Remember you and I both missed or thought it odd that Harry did so little detective work trying to figure out the motive behind what Thomas did. One has to wonder also if someone remains on the Senior Council who is infested? Purpose, Harry would be less of a threat the more isolated he becomes. Then again, thinking of a classic DR WHO episode, DR Who,now President of Galafry, had loyal subjects exiled to outside of the citadel during an invasion of mind reading aliens, because they could organize to fight the enemy better from the outside.
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So is Nemesis the true name of the Outsiders collectively?
I read that as HWWBeside is called Nemesis. Just him.
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I read that as HWWBeside is called Nemesis. Just him.
You might be right, but it's still an open question. We need more information to conclude if HWWBeside is Nemesis or if the three Walkers are a hive mind or Outsider Trinity that is Nemesis.
What is somewhat annoying about this topic is that it may be several books before Harry has a conversation with anyone else about the Walkers.
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You might be right, but it's still an open question. We need more information to conclude if HWWBeside is Nemesis or if the three Walkers are a hive mind or Outsider Trinity that is Nemesis.
What is somewhat annoying about this topic is that it may be several books before Harry has a conversation with anyone else about the Walkers.
Which is why I started the thread about being confused. On one page in Battle Ground the entity occupying Justine calls itself Nemesis, on the next page it says it's name is He Who Walks Beside, an Outsider Walker. What is confusing is we've known about Outsiders from Storm Front on,about Outsider Walkers from White Night on,Nemesis from Cold Days on, but the question of whether they are separate or the same has never been cleared up. Battle Ground sort of implies they are the same, but are they?
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You might be right, but it's still an open question. We need more information to conclude if HWWBeside is Nemesis or if the three Walkers are a hive mind or Outsider Trinity that is Nemesis.
What is somewhat annoying about this topic is that it may be several books before Harry has a conversation with anyone else about the Walkers.
I think it was pretty clear. My bet is that Nemesis is just an alias for Beside. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Which is why I started the thread about being confused. On one page in Battle Ground the entity occupying Justine calls itself Nemesis, on the next page it says it's name is He Who Walks Beside, an Outsider Walker. What is confusing is we've known about Outsiders from Storm Front on,about Outsider Walkers from White Night on,Nemesis from Cold Days on, but the question of whether they are separate or the same has never been cleared up. Battle Ground sort of implies they are the same, but are they?
Also "Old Ones." From Outside, we've had mention of Outsiders, Walkers, and Old Ones. Walkers are the Old Ones knights or captains, and Outsiders are the foot soldiers. I assume Old Ones and Walkers are also considered Outsiders, just with a more specific name, but I can see them being Insiders who were obliviated and created the Outsiders.
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I am wondering if Nemesis can just leave and let behind its host, more or less unharmed. Because I've been thinking what could happen with Justine as the baby grows and there is a chance that Nem-Justine realizes the Hunger is weakening her and the risk for her host is big, so Nemesis just jumps from her to another host (probably random). If that is the case, Justine will find Harry and ask his help (he probably will soulgaze her, because he is soulgazing/sighting everyone now). Another option is that Nem-Justine tries to blackmail Harry the same way that it blackmailed Thomas, to ask him for something that would help it, perhaps to ensure the delivery but with a way of escape. Of course, it that is the case, it won't work as planned but it will escape, perhaps back to the NN.
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I am wondering if Nemesis can just leave and let behind its host, more or less unharmed. Because I've been thinking what could happen with Justine as the baby grows and there is a chance that Nem-Justine realizes the Hunger is weakening her and the risk for her host is big, so Nemesis just jumps from her to another host (probably random). If that is the case, Justine will find Harry and ask his help (he probably will soulgaze her, because he is soulgazing/sighting everyone now). Another option is that Nem-Justine tries to blackmail Harry the same way that it blackmailed Thomas, to ask him for something that would help it, perhaps to ensure the delivery but with a way of escape. Of course, it that is the case, it won't work as planned but it will escape, perhaps back to the NN.
I don't think Nemesis cares, it will use Justine as long as it needs to, it may have already have left her because there is no more to be gained by possessing her. Whether or not Justine dies from the pregnancy doesn't matter to it, nor do I think the Hunger demon affects it, they might even be working together.
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I don't know. I thought if Justine died some part of Nemesis died too, and I don't know if that is irrelevant for it. If there is a maximum number of hosts it can infect, each one matters a little.
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Are HHWB... a trinity? Three aspects manifesting from one being? There are always three and they work as one?
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I don't know. I thought if Justine died some part of Nemesis died too, and I don't know if that is irrelevant for it. If there is a maximum number of hosts it can infect, each one matters a little.
Yeah, we really don't have enough information to know yet. I am inclined to think that Nemesis is kind of like COVID. If it infects you and you die, that bit might die too, but there is more virus from where that came from.
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Yeah, we really don't have enough information to know yet. I am inclined to think that Nemesis is kind of like COVID. If it infects you and you die, that bit might die too, but there is more virus from where that came from.
If it could replicate in every host it infects reality would have been doomed long ago. I think there is a limited amount of nemesis infective spiritual essence this side of the gates and it can only spread so thin until it loses power.
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If it could replicate in every host it infects reality would have been doomed long ago. I think there is a limited amount of nemesis infective spiritual essence this side of the gates and it can only spread so thin until it loses power.
My guess is 13.
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Yes, mine too.
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If it could replicate in every host it infects reality would have been doomed long ago. I think there is a limited amount of nemesis infective spiritual essence this side of the gates and it can only spread so thin until it loses power.
But it doesn't, maybe it does infect everyone, but only a few are vulnerable to the infection? Take conspiracy theories, we all hear them, we are all vulnerable to them to some degree. However a few of us really believe them and in some cases become dangerous because we act on them.
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It is quite possible that Maeve knew she was going to die in cold days and that nemesis simply switched to Justine at the island in the circle leaving Maeve and entering Justine at the right moment. Maeve was motivated and changed enough to just continue.