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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 04, 2019, 05:44:35 AM
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In Summer Knight when Eb, Martha, Listen's to Wind, and Harry were first meeting up, there was discussion about the attack on Archangel.
"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed. "Treachery? But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
Martha glanced at me, then back to Ebenezar. Something passed between them in that look but I couldn't tell what.
"No," Ebenezar said. "That's insane."
"Master to student. You know what the Wardens will say."
Ok so what I'm gathering from this conversation is that Martha is suggesting Harry provided the information on the defenses. That Justin, an apprentice of Simon taught Harry, his apprentice, and Harry supplied it to the Red Court.
Either that or she's suggesting that Justin is alive which is why Eb said it was insane to suggest.
Either way, Justin is the key here. He was an apprentice of Simon, and Martha suspecting Harry means he may not have had any more apprentices that could be suspects. Justin is believed dead, leaving only Harry. However if Justin were not dead..... He'd know the defenses of Archangel as Martha pointed out "master to apprentice"
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I agree. I have used this passage to support my theory that Justin is not dead, and further is in fact Cowl. I am sure I am not the only one. For more reasons than I care to name right now, it is very likely Justin is not gone. The books have put some emphasis on the distinction about being dead and being gone.
I may rewrite that theory when I am a tad less busy but yes I think Justin will return to the stage, one way or another.
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I agree. I have used this passage to support my theory that Justin is not dead, and further is in fact Cowl. I am sure I am not the only one. For more reasons than I care to name right now, it is very likely Justin is not gone. The books have put some emphasis on the distinction about being dead and being gone.
I may rewrite that theory when I am a tad less busy but yes I think Justin will return to the stage, one way or another.
If Justin was Cowl, wouldn't Cowl have been far more willing to kill or otherwise put Harry down in DB?
Harry did burn his house down and cost him Bob and this thralls.
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In Summer Knight when Eb, Martha, Listen's to Wind, and Harry were first meeting up, there was discussion about the attack on Archangel.
"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed. "Treachery? But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
Martha glanced at me, then back to Ebenezar. Something passed between them in that look but I couldn't tell what.
"No," Ebenezar said. "That's insane."
"Master to student. You know what the Wardens will say."
Ok so what I'm gathering from this conversation is that Martha is suggesting Harry provided the information on the defenses. That Justin, an apprentice of Simon taught Harry, his apprentice, and Harry supplied it to the Red Court.
Either that or she's suggesting that Justin is alive which is why Eb said it was insane to suggest.
Either way, Justin is the key here. He was an apprentice of Simon, and Martha suspecting Harry means he may not have had any more apprentices that could be suspects. Justin is believed dead, leaving only Harry. However if Justin were not dead..... He'd know the defenses of Archangel as Martha pointed out "master to apprentice"
Yeah, that's basically exactly what LaFortier suggests in the meeting. It's part of the reason people suspect Simon is Cowl.
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If Justin was Cowl, wouldn't Cowl have been far more willing to kill or otherwise put Harry down in DB?
Harry did burn his house down and cost him Bob and this thralls.
Not if you take a coldly practical approach toward things. Justin wouldn't blame Harry for defending himself because Justin would do the same in Harry's shoes. As long as Harry isn't a threat to his plans, Harry doesn't need to be eliminated. It also remains possible that Harry will someday in the future come around to Justin's way of thinking and join his side, so again, unless Harry poses a threat (or too much of an inconvenience), there is no reason to eliminate him.
The other big Justin evidence is Elaine surviving. The enthrallment spell on Elaine wouldn't break until after Justin dies. How does a half-trained wizard come out of enthrallment, survive a fire that killed her master, avoid the White Council when she doesn't even know they exist (Harry learned about it from Bob) and find her way to Faerie? It seems likely Justin escaped the fire by opening a way to the NeverNever and taking Elaine with him. He then used the fire as an opportunity to fake his death. He took Elaine to the Summer Court and basically sold her to Summer in exchange for protection for her and assistance in hiding the fact he survived from the Council.
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The enthrallment spell on Elaine wouldn't break until after Justin dies.
What are you basing this on? To my knowledge, this is just plain not something the series has established.
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What are you basing this on? To my knowledge, this is just plain not something the series has established.
Admittedly, that was just an assumption based on my general understanding of how magic has worked in the books. Are you suggesting it would break before he dies? Or that Justin's death wouldn't be sufficient to break the spell? I suppose those are possible, but they seem less likely to me to be the way enthrallment would work in the DV.
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Admittedly, that was just an assumption based on my general understanding of how magic has worked in the books. Are you suggesting it would break before he dies? Or that Justin's death wouldn't be sufficient to break the spell? I suppose those are possible, but they seem less likely to me to be the way enthrallment would work in the DV.
I just don't think Justin's life and the enthrallment are linked.
The only example we have that I can think of where an "My death ends the spell" effect is in play (the curse on Papa Raith), has been something that's specifically noted as clever and unusual, so I don't think it's the norm.
So, yes, I think Elaine could have escaped the enthrallment if she was strong enough; on the other side of it, she might have needed counseling and some kind of help to escape its lingering effects (like how Peabody's victims needed work done on them, even though he's dead).
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The only example we have that I can think of where an "My death ends the spell" effect is in play (the curse on Papa Raith), has been something that's specifically noted as clever and unusual, so I don't think it's the norm.
That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.
Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.
Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question.
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Even besides that, the idea that it was or could have been linked to Harry and Thomas's lives was unusual, such that even though Lord Raith knew that it was an ongoing effect, he didn't know it was linked to either of them until they said so in front of him.
And if I remember correctly, Harry has to ask whether linking a spell to someone's life is possible, so again, it does not seem to be an expected norm.
The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.
So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."
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That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.
Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.
As I remember it, it was noted as unusual because it was a sustained effect at all, rather than because it survived her death. It's mentioned in one of the short stories that successive sunrises wear down spells, so that they have to be periodically renewed.
Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question.
No. Well, sort of. An enthrallment spell, according to the RPG, can work in one of two ways. The first way is that it inflicts consequences, which fade in a certain amount of time after something has been done to start the healing process. The other way is to put enough power into the spell to take somebody out (fill up all their stress, and frequently all their consequences) which allows you to rewrite one or more of their aspects (which define essential aspects of one's character). You can change your aspects, but you need a good in-universe reason to do so. For the first type, killing the caster might be considered a reason to justify beginning to recover from consequences, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide. For the second type, killing the caster probably wouldn't be enough to justify changing the aspect, or if it was the aspect would probably be changed to something equally problematic relating to the enthrallment...but it's not explicitly mentioned in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide.
The RPG likes leaving things up in the air.
The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.
So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."
This makes a lot of sense.
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"I got out of the house before you and Justin were finished," she said finally. "His spells had begun to unravel, and I was struggling against them. Confused, terrified. I must have run. I don't even remember doing it."
Enthrallment doesn't paralyze you, it appears to make you compliant. Justin would have been busy dealing with Harry and lacking instruction to the contrary Elaine might have run from the fire. A basic fire kills, panic, run away, type of a thing.
Jim has been fairly clear on what happens to someone being controlled against their will. They fight it on an unconscious level. There are multiple examples in the books. This assuming that enthrallment is a form of mind magic comparable to what Molly used on her friends. If he used a charm or some other type or artifact to produce a similar effect he would have needed to pump power into it continuously, much like Harry did with his gear and wards.
It's possible, however unlikely, that someone discovered a way into Archangel from the Never Never, which would have bypassed the wards. Jim showed one possible mechanism in Skin Game. These are some random thoughts on the subject.
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Also, Fire when used in a certain way has a cleansing aspect to it, that can wipe away magics and whatnot. And there was a lot of fire being thrown around when Harry and Justin were going at it. Some of that splash may have affected other magics in the area.
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Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?
On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.
But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.
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Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?
On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.
But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.
It's possible...but I think Cowl's recruitment pitch would have been better targeted if Cowl was Justin.
Also, he went to a lot of trouble to acquire two potential Starborn....would he really sell one to Summer?
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Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?
Probably! After all, Molly's victims are probably going to be feeling the effects of what she did the rest of their lives, too.
On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.
Would make sense, with the whole Winter/Summer mirroring aspect.
But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.
I would have to check to make sure, but I'm pretty sure they found a body in the wreckage. Doesn't Bob specify in either Fool Moon or Summer Knight that Elaine is alive because they only found one body?
Also, yeah, Cowl very much acts like someone who's never met Harry, not someone who raised him for several years and lost a duel to him.
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There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD. However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.
I find it very unlikely that a schemer like Justin would be caught without a backup plan. Elaine was in Justin's thrall for quite some time. Plenty of time for him to prepare her in some way.
1: Justin could be riding along or controlling Elaine, a la Corpsetaker. She might be aware, or not. He could be hiding in her subconscious and only controlling her when she sleeps. Justin could have informed the RCV then.
2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos. He was well versed in necromancy. He could have communicated to the RCV through an Ectomancer (I doubt Mort is the only one of those).
3: Justin used necromancy to make himself into a litch. Harry said, IIRC, that Cowl's magic felt somewhat familiar, but dark and twisted. This seems to fit.
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There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD.
He has also said that there are two pieces of misinformation that he has put out purposely.......
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2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos. He was well versed in necromancy.
Was he? He had Bob, but I don't recall anything mentioning him being especially versed in necromancy.
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There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD. However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.
I find it very unlikely that a schemer like Justin would be caught without a backup plan. Elaine was in Justin's thrall for quite some time. Plenty of time for him to prepare her in some way.
1: Justin could be riding along or controlling Elaine, a la Corpsetaker. She might be aware, or not. He could be hiding in her subconscious and only controlling her when she sleeps. Justin could have informed the RCV then.
2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos. He was well versed in necromancy. He could have communicated to the RCV through an Ectomancer (I doubt Mort is the only one of those).
3: Justin used necromancy to make himself into a litch. Harry said, IIRC, that Cowl's magic felt somewhat familiar, but dark and twisted. This seems to fit.
When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?
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When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?
I don't think it was ever said that he was... However Bob did have the knowledge and his memories at that point in time were not blocked. Having said that, could Justin have risen himself from the dead? Is there a way to do that? Or the only logical possibility is Elaine was still enthralled and had been given the knowledge by Justin at some point, she could have done it.. However that doesn't make any sense since it is doubtful that the wardens would have left Justin's remains behind when they nabbed Harry. But then again, Peabody comes to mind if he had the knowledge and was doing his traitor bit that long ago.
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another thing to consider is that when Harry threatened to use his death curse, Kumori told him that Cowl had survived them before.... Although Justin wasn't hit with a death curse by Harry, if Justin is Cowl it would show that he may have ways of returning from death, or near death. Cowl was also scarred up on his arms, perhaps burn scars?
I also wonder if Simon knew of Justin being alive (kept it secret because like Eb he loved his apprentice), and realized at the last moment he'd been betrayed. The death curse he used to kill the Red Nobles could also have been aimed at Cowl who defended against it.
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I would have to check to make sure, but I'm pretty sure they found a body in the wreckage. Doesn't Bob specify in either Fool Moon or Summer Knight that Elaine is alive because they only found one body?
Also, yeah, Cowl very much acts like someone who's never met Harry, not someone who raised him for several years and lost a duel to him.
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that only one body was recovered from the ashes of Justin's home. Plus, Harry wouldn't have had nearly as much of a stain on him when the Wardens examined him if he'd swung at Justin and missed.
I do wonder about the possibility of Justin preserving something of himself as a backseat driver who can manage occasional control over Elaine, though. Might rationalize her being Kumori, although I'm still not sure how she ends up on the opposite side of White Night from Cowl if she is.
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another thing to consider is that when Harry threatened to use his death curse, Kumori told him that Cowl had survived them before.... Although Justin wasn't hit with a death curse by Harry, if Justin is Cowl it would show that he may have ways of returning from death, or near death. Cowl was also scarred up on his arms, perhaps burn scars?
Yeah, but the way I understand it, a "death curse" is the curse that a wizard throws at someone with his or her dying breath.. If you receive it it doesn't mean you will die on the spot.. Lord Raith didn't, heck, Harry didn't, [though Cassius wasn't a wizard] he was only doomed to die alone, not immediately.. Actually I think a death curse can be a number of things like cursing someone with purple warts on his or her nose for life..
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I was going to respond to a lot of this, then ended up writing up a massive theory. I will link it: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53047.0.html
Yeah, but the way I understand it, a "death curse" is the curse that a wizard throws at someone with his or her dying breath.. If you receive it it doesn't mean you will die on the spot.. Lord Raith didn't, heck, Harry didn't, [though Cassius wasn't a wizard] he was only doomed to die alone, not immediately.. Actually I think a death curse can be a number of things like cursing someone with purple warts on his or her nose for life..
Yes, they do but the act kills them - it is all the energy they have left. But depending on how they can use that energy based on talent, skill and knowledge the difference might be between killing an individual or a room and nuking a small fortress (like Simon). Frequently described by Harry as being able to level several city blocks (see Grave Peril I think). While technically it doesn't mean you will die (the "Death" in Death Curse is about the caster dying, not the target), it is all about what you use that last spell for. So if all you can manage is purple warts or die alone, sucks to be you. Because some like Margaret Le Fay realise that you can do a lot more with it, like shut down an enemies power when you can't kill them.
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I was going to respond to a lot of this, then ended up writing up a massive theory. I will link it:
Yes, they do but the act kills them - it is all the energy they have left. But depending on how they can use that energy based on talent, skill and knowledge the difference might be between killing an individual or a room and nuking a small fortress (like Simon). Frequently described by Harry as being able to level several city blocks (see Grave Peril I think). While technically it doesn't mean you will die (the "Death" in Death Curse is about the caster dying, not the target), it is all about what you use that last spell for. So if all you can manage is purple warts or die alone, sucks to be you. Because some like Margaret Le Fay realise that you can do a lot more with it, like shut down an enemies power when you can't kill them.
You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it... Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying. If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...
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There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD. However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.
I really don't know what I was thinking, you are right. I believe the quote was Justin is dead, D-E-D (deliberately mispelled) dead. Also, if I recall, when asked if Justin was as dead as Harry, JB said "Oh, at least that dead."
Thus, my theory is bunk, Justin did die in the fire. However, that doesn't mean he didn't somehow help Elaine escape to the NN or temporarily take over Elaine's body somehow and makee deals with Summer that Elaine was then bound to honor, since it was her body that made the deal. There's just too much mention of Justin to be a deceased bad-guy mentor that we won't see again, and to much mystery about Elaine for her disappearance to be as simple as "I ran away" and got caught up with Summer by happenstance.
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You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it... Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying. If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...
I note Corpsetaker had a death without an apparent death curse. Was it actually Corpsetaker's death curse that allowed her to enter the spirit world and avoid what comes next? I don't know but if it was and Justin also didn't throw a death curse . . .
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When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?
It wasn't, directly. But I made an assumption based on the fact that Justin was a Warden who spent decades, at least, hunting and fighting necromancers, including Kemmler himself. He would have learned enough about necromancy in order to be able to fight it. He had been corrupted (or whatever) while fighting necromancers, thus it is likely that he would have picked up some of their tricks.
Also, since he was going to be betraying the WC and the Wardens, he would see great value in necromantic ways of avoiding death. It just makes sense.
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You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it... Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying. If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...
I think we can both agree on the process of a Death Curse then. My point is exactly that, Justin did not throw a Death Curse which is very strange. We do not know exactly how Justin died or what killed him, though the implication in the text was that Harry's magical fire did it during their duel. Which generally I think would not kill a person fast enough to stop them performing a Death Curse (unless it was like Luccio's heat ray through the brain).
Cozarkian, thank you. That quote from JB was exactly one I was looking for. I mean seriously does he have to spell it out? Your theory is plausable, though of course we have no real way of knowing how exactly Justin came back from his body death. But you are exactly right; there is too much emotional weight with him as a character, and Elaine, and too many references to him not to use him as such. Elaine almost certainly did not just stumble into Summer. And remember, there is an ongoing undertone that Summer are really trying to kill Harry, and seem to have very odd links to the bad guys.
Corpsetaker's death is an interesting case study. I think because Harry shoots him/her in the back of the head with no warning is the most likely reason that there was no Death Curse leveled at them. Whether Corpsetaker used a Death Curse as a means of continuing in the Between is another matter. Although I would point out, it was not necessary at all for Dresden's shade/soul to do such a thing to be able to be a part of events and still have a form of magic. He did have some pretty top-tier help though, and his body hadn't died so there are some differences. Though as Mab says, "Death is a spectrum, not a line". So my theory is that even if Justin had "died" it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to come back again through his knowledge of Necromancy (assuming he is Cowl/can perform). I think it is reasonably apparent in the DV that you don't instantly go to beyond, or cease to exist. You soul/spirit carries on and exists and functions at a higher level. Which makes sense in a story that involves Necromancy and multiple afterlife destinations.
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And remember, there is an ongoing undertone that Summer are really trying to kill Harry, and seem to have very odd links to the bad guys.
Oooh, elaborate please (probably in a new thread). The whole Summer trying to kill Harry thing I just thought was a natural result of Mab's use of Harry in Summer Knight, which then lead to Titania hating Harry for killing her daughter, and was followed by Mab's continued interest and use of Harry. Also, are there links to the bad guys other than Aurora? Because Leah and Maeve also got hit by the bad guys, so I don't think Aurora shows a special connection to the bad guys. If Leah went to Bianca's party, it's possible a summer representative was also at that party, and that whoever that was became the source of nemfection for Aurora.
Corpsetaker's death is an interesting case study. I think because Harry shoots him/her in the back of the head with no warning is the most likely reason that there was no Death Curse leveled at them. Whether Corpsetaker used a Death Curse as a means of continuing in the Between is another matter. Although I would point out, it was not necessary at all for Dresden's shade/soul to do such a thing to be able to be a part of events and still have a form of magic. He did have some pretty top-tier help though, and his body hadn't died so there are some differences. Though as Mab says, "Death is a spectrum, not a line". So my theory is that even if Justin had "died" it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to come back again through his knowledge of Necromancy (assuming he is Cowl/can perform). I think it is reasonably apparent in the DV that you don't instantly go to beyond, or cease to exist. You soul/spirit carries on and exists and functions at a higher level. Which makes sense in a story that involves Necromancy and multiple afterlife destinations.
Harry stepped off the tracks - avoiding the southbound train - straight into purgatory and was sent back by Uriel. I don't think that was an option for Corpsetaker. Uriel wasn't going to help Corpsetaker and I don't think Lucifer would have either. Thus, Corpsetaker must have had some magical way to keep his/her spirit from passing on. It's probably not so much that Corpsetaker used a death curse to become a spirit, but rather that if Corpsetaker had used a death curse, he/she would have been unable to avoid what comes next. (I could be way off here - did Kemmler throw a death curse? - of course, Kemmler was better and probably had multiple ways to avoid what comes next.)
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Harry stepped off the tracks - avoiding the southbound train - straight into purgatory and was sent back by Uriel. I don't think that was an option for Corpsetaker. Uriel wasn't going to help Corpsetaker and I don't think Lucifer would have either. Thus, Corpsetaker must have had some magical way to keep his/her spirit from passing on. It's probably not so much that Corpsetaker used a death curse to become a spirit, but rather that if Corpsetaker had used a death curse, he/she would have been unable to avoid what comes next. (I could be way off here - did Kemmler throw a death curse? - of course, Kemmler was better and probably had multiple ways to avoid what comes next.)
Corpsetaker didn't die until Mort dispatched him in Ghost Story..
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Corpsetaker didn't die until Mort dispatched him in Ghost Story..
I'm pretty sure that Corpsetaker died when Harry killed him, and he just stuck around due to the whole "death is a spectrum" thing.
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I'm pretty sure that Corpsetaker died when Harry killed him, and he just stuck around due to the whole "death is a spectrum" thing.
Thank you Nadia, I am glad the point I am trying to make isn't getting completely lost.
Mira - If it helps, from the perspective of a Mortal with no supernatural awareness (in the Dresdenverse) death seems very final. You are gone when your brain gives up. And we can only speculate and use the knowledge we have to guess at What Comes Next. But as readers, we know differently. Like anyone with awareness of the supernatural in the DV, we know that there are many different afterlife realms (Heaven, the Greek Underworld, Hell, Gehenna etc).
So when the Corpsetaker died (in Luccio's body) the body experienced the scientific process of death. Corpsetaker's spirit left that body and went Between rather than straight to What Comes Next. The difference between being dead and gone. We don't know why or how. And yes, the final dissolution of the Corpsetaker into What Comes Next did come at Mort's hand in Ghost Story. But Death is a process, not an ending. That is clear in our universe, and in Dresden's. You can see in the DV that a person's Spirit/Soul leaves the Mortal/Material plane and goes into the Spirit part of the Nevernever (I define Between as slightly different than the regular Nevernever as it must be much further from Dresden's world than say a place like Faerie, where the rules are mostly the same). Beyond even that, there is the after-after life (Heaven and Hell etc). Which again, does not mean the Corpsetaker stops existing. Far from it, the Corpsetaker now has to deal with being in wherever it went (presumably Hell). Which is not to say it couldn't come back either. Rare, but not impossible. Food for thought.
Cozarkian - I will create another thread to expound on the whole Summer/Bad Guys connections. Yes I had considered that the Corpsetaker must have had some knowledge to stop him/herself passing on fully. I think you are essentially right, the act of using the Death Curse at all might have precluded the Corpsetaker from being able to survive as a spirit in Between. Kemmler may have thrown a Death Curse - believe that there is a theory floating around that his Death Curse was the Tsar Bomba explosion. However, it may also not have been as I believe JB said that the White Council put a magic lock on him (like Eb did to Mavra) so that he couldn't use magic, and they cut him up and burned him. This was how he wasn't able to cheat death again presumably, though of course we don't know that he isn't active from beyond the grave...
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Kemmler may have thrown a Death Curse - believe that there is a theory floating around that his Death Curse was the Tsar Bomba explosion.
The other side of that theory is that the Tsar Bomba explosion may have been one of the attempts to kill Kemmler.