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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Selrach on November 11, 2011, 09:19:05 AM
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I know by the RAW Breath weapons use Guns, but honestly using eyebeams and firing a handguns are only similar in a very distant way. I feel like another skill would be more appropriate. Does anyone think it should default to another skill or should it be on a case by case basis?
Also eye beams rule.
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My copy of Your Story says Breath Weapon uses the WEAPONS skill, not guns.
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Well your copy would be correct because my head was definitely wrong...
Still feels a bit wonky to me.
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Just think of it as a really loooong weapon.
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Its best to think of it as a thrown weapon. Most gm I have met think that allowing someone to use fists instead is also ok because of breath weapons high price (for examples such as web throwing etc).
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When you get down to it it's not like people generally learn any sort of skill that would help much with eye beams or breathing fire at people, but creating a whole new skill (and balance issues as a result) doesn't seem worth it for one power.
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I think with actual breath weapon, the weapons skill is just fine. Using fists would make it an elemental claws power, which one can do, I just don't think it would be fitting the distance part of the power. Discipline would be another option, I guess, but I personally like the distinction between a magic user and an innate power. And like the power itself said, it is best to look at it as a throwing weapon that you created.
If you create an IoP with breath weapon, I'd me more inclined to allow different skills to use the power, depending on the item. I remember 2 items I have proposed somewhere here myself, the one was an amulet with a prehistoric insect trapped in amber, using survival to bring down a swarm of insects to attack. The other one was a glass eye that would use alertness as the attack skill.
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I would allow you to use it normally with Fists, Weapons, or Guns. Other skills would be allowable with a stunt and an excuse.
Can't imagine why an IoP would grant Breath Weapon. Isn't the whole point of that power not needing a weapon?
Anyway, if you'll allow a little self-promotion, I have a custom power that might interest you:
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains some kind of weapon.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Defensive Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be wielded with Weapons and used with the defence trapping of that skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of one zone and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, or Guns skill. It cannot be used with the defence trapping of Weapons.
Long-Range Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon has a range of three zones.
Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks at a -2 penalty.
Superior Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) You suffer no penalty when making zonewide attacks with your natural weapon.
I've been considering a couple of modifications to that power, but it's quite usable as written.
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Guh, I would almost ask what the point of all that is. You could take every one of those upgrades for 7 refresh and it's still not as good as taking channeling:fire and merely describing it as the use of fire breath. I guess what I should say is it seems underpowered, but then so does breath weapon.
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Yeah, I know.
Hence my statement about considering changes.
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Yeah, I know.
Hence my statement about considering changes.
Part of the issue is simply that the power as written above charges a refresh for capabilities which are free to most weapon or power use. The defensive part of Defensive Weaponry, the Area Weaponry trapping, and the spray attack portion of Ranged Weaponry are all actions which can be done without paying refresh when using other powers and / or weapons. Rolling those into the base power and combining / rearranging what's left would make it significantly more reasonable for the cost. Might still be expensive compared to spellcasting, but what isn't? ;)
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Perhaps consider something along these lines? Rationale:
* I think it's reasonable to allow flexibility on skills chosen, though as is always the case, the group should judge the appropriateness of the choice. (Ie, I would probably respond with a firm 'No' to the suggestion that Resources would be appropriate, unless the person came up with an absolutely amazing justification.)
* If defined as a melee weapon, it should be allowed to do defensive melee actions for no extra charge.
* Using Evocation as a baseline, 'zonewide' is treated as a two-shift effect. While I'd be reluctant to make it a baseline capability via a -2 penalty, it is probably reasonable as a -1 power option with no additional penalty.
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body containscan naturally (or supernaturally) generate some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Choose a skill to represent your expertise with this form of attack (skill chosen must be approved by the table); typical examples include: Fists, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon/attack is treated as a melee weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, does benefits from Strength powers, can be used defensively (if appropriate to its nature), and is wielded with the Fistschosen skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Defensive Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be wielded with Weapons and used with the defence trapping of that skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of one zone and (if appropriate to its nature) is capable of spray attacks, but can no longer be used defensively.. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, or Guns skill. It cannot be used with the defence trapping of Weapons.
Long-Range Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon has a range of three zones.
Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks at a -2 no penalty.
Superior Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) You suffer no penalty when making zonewide attacks with your natural weapon.
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Guh, I would almost ask what the point of all that is. You could take every one of those upgrades for 7 refresh and it's still not as good as taking channeling:fire and merely describing it as the use of fire breath. I guess what I should say is it seems underpowered, but then so does breath weapon.
Did you ever had to take backslash for attacking with a Laser Blade made from your own mind?
I know you can generally optimze so that you allways make your discipline roll but not all character are made that way. Channeling is still cooler.
The power made by your screams Soulknife by the way. I guess i can still block and maneuver with it right ?
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My thoughts on Natural Weaponry:
-You'll notice that taking every upgrade other than Defensive Weaponry basically gives you a grenade launcher. The entire purpose of this power is to integrate a mundane weapon into your body.
-6 refresh is probably too much to pay for that.
-Defensive Weaponry is good as is. It essentially transplants the entire Fists skill into Weapons. Well worth 1 refresh.
-I originally limited the range of the initial range upgrade to one zone so as to imitate Breath Weapon. But Breath Weapon is widely panned, so I'm reconsidering this.
-In retrospect, Area Weaponry probably shouldn't impose a penalty.
-I'd like to make Area Weaponry available to some melee fighters, particularly swarms. Penalty might be warranted here since you get to avoid hitting yourself. Or maybe I should just make it cost 2.
PS: @CottbusFiles: I do not understand what you are trying to say. Sorry.
PPS: I pretty much hate Becq's rewrite, for a number of reasons. The main one is that it lets you attack and defend unarmed with any combat skill at weapon 2 in its base version, making anyone who takes the base version with Fists into a moron. There are a few other reasons, but they are secondary.
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What if the Weapon value of Breath weapon scaled off a skill like Might?
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-Defensive Weaponry is good as is. It essentially transplants the entire Fists skill into Weapons. Well worth 1 refresh.
From your initial writeup, it appears to allow a choice of skill (or affect all three) in the base power. And the only difference I see between the defense trappings in Fists vs Weapons is Fists requires a narrative justification. Since the natural weaponry is probably going to give you that just by existing, what are you gaining by spending a refresh on Defensive Weaponry?
PPS: I pretty much hate Becq's rewrite, for a number of reasons. The main one is that it lets you attack and defend unarmed with any combat skill at weapon 2 in its base version, making anyone who takes the base version with Fists into a moron. There are a few other reasons, but they are secondary.
Not really sure how this differs from your version or how using Fists is any less effective than other skills. Can you elucidate?
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The base power as I wrote it restricts you to using Fists.
By taking Defensive Weaponry you gain the ability to attack and defend unarmed with Weapons. In other words, you combine Fists and Weapons into one skill.
All Fists is good for is unarmed attacks and defenses. If you can attack and defend unarmed with a skill, then that skill has all trappings of Fists.
As such, Becq's version doesn't make you choose between Fists and Guns and Weapons. It makes you choose between Fists and Fists+Guns and Fists+Weapons. Obviously, plain old Fists is the sucker choice in that set.
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All else being equal, what benefit is actually gained by using a skill other than Fists for Natural Weaponry that is worth 1 refresh as a power?
Assume that the weapon in any case has easy narrative justification to be used defensively, such that one could, for instance, defend against any large conventional melee weapon using the Fists skill, as that skill allows.
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If you choose Guns for your natural weapon, you can attack and defend unarmed with your Guns skill.
Meanwhile, you can also use a real gun with your Guns skill.
If you choose Fists for your natural weapon, you can attack and defend unarmed with your Fists skill.
But you can't use a gun with your Fists skill.
So choosing Guns is better in every possible situation.
Unless for some reason you want to attack unarmed without using your natural weapon.
But there's no reason to do that.
This really isn't complicated.
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Preliminary rewrite. Having a built-in grenade launcher now only costs 4 refresh.
I'd like to add a melee zone-attack option, but I'm not sure how to word it.
By the current wording, zone attacks are as dangerous to the user as to anyone else if used on the user's zone.
If I add the melee zone-attack option, I'll probably let people remove that drawback in exchange for 1 refresh. And maybe I'll let them swap it for a -2 penalty when zone-attacking or losing the ability to make single-target attacks.
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains or can produce some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Defensive Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be wielded with Weapons and used with the defense trapping of that skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of three zone and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, or Guns skill. It cannot be used with the defense trapping of Weapons.
Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks.
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But there's no reason to do that.
The same reason any supernatural entity would choose to use a mundane attack method over a superior supernatural one:
Maintaining a pretense of mortality.
Though I'd like to see the argument concluding that a supernatural power is overpowered for using the same skill as a superior mundane attack method.
This really isn't complicated.
Let's keep the veiled personal attacks to a minimum, shall we?
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Wasn't a personal attack. Just tactlessness, that's all. Sorry if it was impolite.
The problem isn't that Becq's rewrite is overpowered (although it might be) it's that it gives you a false choice. If you're going to have people choose between three skills, you shouldn't make one of the choices strictly worse. That amounts to a mechanical booby trap.
And you don't actually have to not use your natural weapon for the sake of discretion. You have control over the aesthetics of your own powers. So if you want your Natural Weaponry to be an normal-looking set of human fists, you can have that.
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The problem isn't that Becq's rewrite is overpowered (although it might be) it's that it gives you a false choice. If you're going to have people choose between three skills, you shouldn't make one of the choices strictly worse. That amounts to a mechanical booby trap.
Barring compels rendering you without your weapon of choice or powers that grant bonuses specific to fists, the skill itself is already a 'mechanical booby trap'.
And you don't actually have to not use your natural weapon for the sake of discretion. You have control over the aesthetics of your own powers. So if you want your Natural Weaponry to be an normal-looking set of human fists, you can have that.
Would you be satisfied on that point by explicitly requiring that the skill chosen must generally reflect the nature of the weapon? (I thought that implicit in the 'approved by table' comment, but perhaps I was wrong)
Eye-lasers not being particularly well represented by Fists, and fists that hit like sledgehammers not being particularly well represented by guns.
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I disagree about Fists. But this is not the place for that debate.
We can at least agree that we shouldn't make Fists worse, right?
And as for the "approved by the table" requirement and the idea that weapons should be assigned to skills by type;
-everything must be approved by the table anyway. So that sentence is basically meaningless.
-I really prefer my mechanics rigorous.
-I can't imagine a melee weapon that would make sense with Guns.
-I don't think it would solve the problem. A magical ability to always have a club on hand is plenty discreet and quite suitable for Weapons. I suppose I could word things so that only Fists has the ability to be discreet, but I'd rather not. It'd involve too much aesthetic restriction for my tastes.
So...yeah. I like Defensive Weaponry as it is.
What do you have against it, anyway?
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So...yeah. I like Defensive Weaponry as it is.
What do you have against it, anyway?
It's a choice between describing things in a way which make your 'natural weapon' effective and spending a point of refresh. I suspect most will choose to spend the refresh on something else.
Somewhat ironically, it's a case where 'fluff' affects the mechanics by RAW. ;)
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Wait, what?
How could clever description duplicate the effect of Defensive Weaponry?
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I think he means that with certain fluff it makes sense for a natural weapon to be wield-able with weapons automatically for example if you can create swords out of your body even though you can create the weapon out of your body (either liquid terminator style or wolverine style) it makes sense you could wield it with weapons (it being a weapon) and that you could parry with it.
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No.
No.
NO.
NO.
If you want to make a Weapons weapon with this power, buy the Defensive Weaponry upgrade. That's how it works.
That's what the text of the power says.
The base power can only give you Fists weapons. It says so clearly. Criticizing Defensive Weaponry on the basis of a ruling to the contrary is like giving a guy with Wings a weapon 2 Fists attack for free because his wings are sharp, then complaining that Claws is useless when you can just get Wings.
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How could clever description duplicate the effect of Defensive Weaponry?
It's in the Close-Combat Defense trapping of Fists. Specifically, "Fists may be rolled as a defense...representing the ability to block or dodge an opponent’s attacks. It can’t be used as a defense when the weapon arguably has a significant reach advantage (swords, staves, and guns), unless you can justify it...As a rule, Fists can usually be justified as a defense against attacks that come from the same zone as you and rarely against attacks from outside that zone."
The only significant difference between the Fists defense trapping and the Weapons defense trapping is that need to justify it for reach weapons. The weapon apparently counts as justification enough (which makes sense) for the Weapons skill.
So yes, all it takes is a table accepted description to match the mechanical effects of Fists' defense with Weapons' defense.
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No.
No.
NO.
NO.
If you want to make a Weapons weapon with this power, buy the Defensive Weaponry upgrade. That's how it works.
That's what the text of the power says.
The base power can only give you Fists weapons. It says so clearly.
The debate here is not whether that restriction exists (in your personal homebrewed power), but whether it is appropriate (for a wider audience).
Criticizing Defensive Weaponry on the basis of a ruling to the contrary is like giving a guy with Wings a weapon 2 Fists attack for free because his wings are sharp, then complaining that Claws is useless when you can just get Wings.
Who said anything about handing out weapon values for natural weapons for free?
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@UmbraLux: The difference is that in one case you use the Fists skill and in the other case you use the Weapons skill. That's a pretty significant difference.
@Tedronai: The debate was briefly about whether that restriction existed. Hopefully, it isn't anymore. Because whether it's appropriate is something that's a lot more worthwhile to discuss.
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@Tedronai: The debate was briefly about whether that restriction existed. Hopefully, it isn't anymore. Because whether it's appropriate is something that's a lot more worthwhile to discuss.
Which posts would those be? Because I think I missed that part of the debate.
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@UmbraLux: The difference is that in one case you use the Fists skill and in the other case you use the Weapons skill. That's a pretty significant difference.
I have a background in programming and circuit logic. The name of the skill doesn't matter much...my question about Defensive Weaponry all along is essentially, "Why would I pay a point of refresh to use skill X instead of skill Y if all else is equal?"
Shrug, it doesn't really matter. Each table will (and should) have their own version / ruling.
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But all else isn't equal.
Fists already allows you to fight unarmed. By using Weapons instead, you add unarmed combat capability to your Weapons skill.
So it's actually a more powerful power when used with Weapons.
It would be even more powerful if you could use it with, say, Resources.
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Fists already allows you to fight unarmed. By using Weapons instead, you add unarmed combat capability to your Weapons skill.
So it's actually a more powerful power when used with Weapons.
No, the trapping as you've written it states "Your natural weapon may be wielded with Weapons and used with the defence trapping of that skill." So all you get for that one refresh is the ability to use the power (your natural weapon) with the Weapons skill. Not unarmed attacks. If you intended something else, it needs to be clarified.
Shrug. You like your power far more than I like criticizing it. I'll step out.
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But the natural weapon is an unarmed attack. It's always available and its part of your body (by default).
And I do appreciate the feedback. If I sound annoyed, it's because it feels like I have to say everything three times to get it across.
I don't ask to be agreed with. But it's very tiresome when people talk right past you.
EDIT: It's off-topic, but I'd kinda like to point out that I don't actually like this power very much. I don't consider it a finished product.
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The defense trapping of Weaponry is largely indistinguishable from that of Fists for a character who has contrived the required narrative plausibility through their description of their natural weaponry.
Do you concede this point?
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Wouldn't dream of contesting it.
Looking forward to seeing where you're going with this.
PS: If people don't like Defensive Weaponry as it stands, I'd appreciate suggestions for another incentive to use Fists with Natural Weaponry.
PPS: I just realized that I never responded to Selrach's suggestion of having Might dictate weapon rating. I considered using it for the edit, but decided not to because I wanted to keep the power simple while avoiding the multi-skill dependency that wizards have. Would appreciate hearing people's thoughts on the matter.
PPPS: If I ask for feedback and then argue with you when you give it, it isn't because I think your feedback is bad. It's because I find that arguing these things usually helps work them out. The current stunt list rewrite is a good example of this approach working. This thread is a good example of it not working.
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I think I see what Tedronai is saying. In this case the major difference between the weapons and fists skills is that weapons allows you to defend against weapons and fists requires justification for that. If I choose to have stone fists (or arms) as my natural weapon, then the fists skill allows me to defend against weapons (I.E. the power provides the justification for me to defend against weapons with fists), but if I choose to take short claws on my knuckles then I must pay 1 refresh for the same privilege.
I do see the additional difference of weapons (the skill) actually allowing you to use weapons (the physical object), but honestly I'm not sure about whether that's worth the refresh or not, and if it is, if this is the place to be paying that cost.
Edit: Something else that's been bugging me is that claws currently states that the natural weapon is always visible unless you take human guise or human form. Did you decide to cut that, or did you just forget about it? I'm saying this because it seems to me like you're trying to replace claws and breath weapon simultaneously.
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Defensive Weaponry is not intended to increase parrying ability at all. It's just supposed to let you use the Weapons skill. That's it, that's all. If you describe your natural weapons in such a way as to prevent parrying, that's a self-compel and you get FP.
If you don't think that being able to wield real weapons and natural weapons with the same skill is worth a refresh, I would appreciate hearing what you think it is worth. It's obviously worth something, but what?
And I deliberately got rid of the part of Claws that said they were always visible. I had a number of reasons for this, but the main one is that aesthetics should not be mechanically enforced.
And yes, I'm trying to replace both Claws and Breath Weapon here. I never really liked having those as separate powers in the first place.
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If you don't think that being able to wield real weapons and natural weapons with the same skill is worth a refresh, I would appreciate hearing what you think it is worth. It's obviously worth something, but what?
I'm really unsure about this. From a stunt perspective it is a very potent ability. You're literally taking all of the trappings of fists and adding them to weapons. However from a practical perspective, if you have a weapon:4 natural weapon there really isn't much of a draw to using actual weapons (aside from throwing them I suppose). It's a tough question.
And I deliberately got rid of the part of Claws that said they were always visible. I had a number of reasons for this, but the main one is that aesthetics should not be mechanically enforced.
I only ask because I see a moderate advantage in being able to conceal your weapon (I.E. it retracts or is hidden beneath something) rather than having it exposed. The game did a fair job of mechanically separating this (by having you take human form if you wanted retractable weapons or human guise if you want the freedom to use it and still appear human), however in this case you're allowing the thematics to have a fair impact on the mechanics, which in turn limits thematics.
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I'm really unsure about this. From a stunt perspective it is a very potent ability. You're literally taking all of the trappings of fists and adding them to weapons. However from a practical perspective, if you have a weapon:4 natural weapon there really isn't much of a draw to using actual weapons (aside from throwing them I suppose). It's a tough question.
Fair summary.
My solution to the problem was to let people buy the ability to use others weapons if they wanted and to not buy that ability if they didn't think it was worth it.
This solution seems to be fairly unpopular, though. Not sure why.
I only ask because I see a moderate advantage in being able to conceal your weapon (I.E. it retracts or is hidden beneath something) rather than having it exposed. The game did a fair job of mechanically separating this (by having you take human form if you wanted retractable weapons or human guise if you want the freedom to use it and still appear human), however in this case you're allowing the thematics to have a fair impact on the mechanics, which in turn limits thematics.
Given that Human Guise is free and Human Form is cheaper than that, neither power should ever make a character meaningfully stronger.
And I don't like the way that canon Claws can't be taken for a supernatural Bruce Lee clone.
PS: How am I letting thematics impact mechanics? I thought I was doing the opposite of that.
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My solution to the problem was to let people buy the ability to use others weapons if they wanted and to not buy that ability if they didn't think it was worth it.
This solution seems to be fairly unpopular, though. Not sure why.
People are seeing the defensive aspect (weapons defends vs both fists and weapons, fists defends vs fists only without a justification) as the major difference between fists and weapons. They don't like the idea that some things provide that justification on their own, while others would pay a refresh to gain that ability.
As you have pointed out there are other differences, I'm just not sure that they are worth the refresh.
Given that Human Guise is free and Human Form is cheaper than that, neither power should ever make a character meaningfully stronger.
But they have their own baggage. They change the game so to speak.
And I don't like the way that canon Claws can't be taken for a supernatural Bruce Lee clone.
I'll give you that, though I think strength powers or a martial arts-type stunt would be more appropriate.
PS: How am I letting thematics impact mechanics? I thought I was doing the opposite of that.
Because a person with retractable claws for example gains a mechanical advantage over the person who is covered in bony spurs or tentacles or something. The only difference between them is how they have described their use of the power.
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People are seeing the defensive aspect (weapons defends vs both fists and weapons, fists defends vs fists only without a justification) as the major difference between fists and weapons. They don't like the idea that some things provide that justification on their own, while others would pay a refresh to gain that ability.
If you define your natural weapon in a way that restricts its parrying capabilities, you are self-compelling.
As you have pointed out there are other differences, I'm just not sure that they are worth the refresh.
I think they are. But I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.
But they have their own baggage. They change the game so to speak.
Really? I'm not aware of any.
I'll give you that, though I think strength powers or a martial arts-type stunt would be more appropriate.
I'd expect all of the above, actually.
Because a person with retractable claws for example gains a mechanical advantage over the person who is covered in bony spurs or tentacles or something. The only difference between them is how they have described their use of the power.
Nope!
If your obvious weaponry causes you problems, it's a compel. If it causes you no problems, then it's nothing. And compels aren't bad, as we can see from the fact that aspects are generally two-sided.
It's the same logic that makes not everyone take Human Guise.
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If you define your natural weapon in a way that restricts its parrying capabilities, you are self-compelling.
No, you aren't. Fists by nature is not allowed to defend against weapons. IF you can provide justification (like “My skin is bulletproof, so I should be able to block a sword if I do it right”) then you can defend against weapons. A natural weapon is not justification in and of itself, since there are many things which one could define as a natural weapon. Fire breath being a good example of a weapon that you would have a hard time justifying it's use as a defense against weapons.
Anyway my point is that if you could normally do something, and are prevented by an aspect, that's a compel. If you normally can't do something but one person's flavor text allows them to skirt the rules, that's an issue.
Really? I'm not aware of any.
Yeah I went and actually checked them out... There are issues, but they are minor. Human form takes a supplemental action to get rid of, and human guise may fall away at inappropriate times. So you're right on that one.
Nope!
If your obvious weaponry causes you problems, it's a compel. If it causes you no problems, then it's nothing. And compels aren't bad, as we can see from the fact that aspects are generally two-sided.
Yeah, I'm willing to concede that point.
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Mm. If you deny yourself a capability that the game allows you access to, I think you ought to get FP for it.
But it does appear that you're right about parrying with natural weapons.
The guy with Fists-based flame breath and no Toughness can't parry as well as the guy with Fists-based knuckle blades and no Toughness.
That problem is built into the rules for parrying. It exists for characters with canon Claws too. And for Pure Mortals.
I'd kinda like to do something about it, but aside from just houseruling it I don't know how. It's beyond the scope of the custom power.
Any suggestions?
I guess I could add an addendum to Natural Weaponry saying that it always counts as justification for a Fists parry. But that's just heavy-handed and weird.
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Agreed, that would be a weird solution.
But it does appear that you're right about parrying with natural weapons.
The guy with Fists-based flame breath and no Toughness can't parry as well as the guy with Fists-based knuckle blades and no Toughness.
That problem is built into the rules for parrying. It exists for characters with canon Claws too. And for Pure Mortals.
The reason why it's coming up now though is that the way it appears from your power, the guy with fire breath (although fire breath is a poor example in this case because your power clearly states that you can't take Defensive weaponry and Ranged weaponry together) can pick up the ability to parry by paying a refresh. Which is completely RAW for a stunt, but a little under-powered for a power and a little weird overall.
I just took a step back for a second and realized something though. This isn't my argument. I actually have no problems with Defensive weaponry as it stands (other than the fact that I'm still not sure if it's worth the refresh as I outlined a few posts ago and as you pointed out earlier that's a personal issue). I'm just incredibly good at playing the devil's advocate, and that's what I saw other people saying.
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Oh, goddammit.
Defensive Weaponry and Ranged Weaponry are supposed to be compatible.
Bit of a failure on my part there.
Anyway, regardless of your true opinion, I appreciate the feedback. It's useful.
Can you think of a minor benefit that I could add to Defensive Weaponry that would make it feel more worthwhile?
Because with this many people saying it isn't worth a whole refresh, I feel as though I ought to listen.
Maybe letting you make normal unarmed attacks with Weapons too?
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I'm honestly pretty conflicted as to whether it's worth the refresh or not. Again, from a purely mechanical perspective it's pretty powerful. It moves an entire skill under another skill. I just don't see it as being real practical.
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Edited again.
Renamed Defensive Weaponry and expanded it to let you use Weapons for all unarmed attacks, barring compels. It's not actually a terribly significant upgrade, but it makes the upgrade look more impressive.
It's not a perfect solution, but since no one has proposed a better one...
Also expanded the array of options for area attacks.
I think I've covered pretty much every natural weapon I can think of, now. So this power might just be complete.
Of course, it has a truly excessive number of options now. But they're all very simple. I don't think it'll be a problem.
Don't hesitate to point out if there's something wrong, though.
Crossposting this to Custom Powers thread.
NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains or can produce some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Integrated Weaponry [-1]. You may use your Weapons skill to attack, defend, maneuver, and block unarmed or with your natural weapon.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of three zone and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, or Guns skill. It cannot be used with the defense trapping of Weapons unless you possess the Integrated Weaponry upgrade.
Area Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks.
Selective Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) You do not harm yourself when making a zonewide attack against your own zone with your natural weapon.
Explosive Weaponry [+1]. (Requires Area Weaponry) Your natural weapon may not be used to make attacks that are not zone-wide.
Imprecise Weaponry [+1] (Requires Selective Weaponry) You suffer a -2 penalty to the accuracy of any zonewide attack that you make with your natural weapon.
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First, does Area Weaponry require Ranged Weapon?
Second, I feel like this might be a little under powered...because the advantage of a breath weapon is supposed to be that you can use it indefinitely, but I feel like that would rarely come up. I humbly plug my suggestion for having the Weapon Value of Breath Weapon scaling off one of the lesser used skills like Endurance, Might or even Conviction. This would make the ability scale better into later refresh and make it about equal to channeling in base damage.
Third, why can the integrated weapons Power only run off Weapons? I mean if my natural weapon is eye beams, wouldn't it make more sense to defend with Guns and for claws wouldn't it make sense to defend with Fists? I think trying to separate out the different trappings into different skills is a noble pursuit, but not really worth it. This makes the powers less useful as it requires a player to tie more skills into its use and by extension makes it even more expensive.
Fourth, I laughed at the idea of Melee Weapon with the explosive power but no ranged.
P.S. Eye beams still rule.
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Explosive melee weaponry would be perfect for something like a phoenix, though! Just make sure to pick up immunity to fire. But you were going to do that anyway, right?
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1. Not anymore! Elephants should be able to trample crowds if they want. (Imprecise Natural Weaponry, -2 Refresh.)
2. As I said before, I don't want to make this a complex multi-skill power. It should just give you a weapon, period. Also: infinite ammo is not the big draw of Breath Weapon. Being armed while unarmed is. Also: Channeling should be more damaging than Breath Weapon, barring Strength/stunts.
3. Integrated Weapons is optional. If you are using a Fists weapon like claws, you don't need it. And Guns has no defense trapping. That is why it is only for Weapons. (Not sure what you mean about separating the trappings into different skills. This power never uses more than one skill.)
4. Believe it or not, making that possible was one of the main reasons for this edit. A living tornado would use Potent Explosive Selective Natural Weaponry at a cost of 3 refresh.
PS: They do indeed.
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@2: Channeling does do more damage potentially...You get focus items and you can take mental stress and/or consequences to further turbocharge it. What I meant was that it would be about equivalent to a base evocation. As for the multi-skill question, every time I have seen the power posted there has been nothing from stopping you from taking all the upgrades. I assumed that ranged attacks would default to fists and ranged to guns. Are you saying if I make a character with Claws and then later he discovers he can shoot them like missiles, that this ranged attack uses Fists?
@3: Why can't it add a defense trapping to another skill? Also the name bugs me, because to me it implies that claws are not part of a character's body. Also it seems a bit redundant unless you really want to use Weapons. From the way this power is described you can just use fist and this power justifies blocking most attacks ( my claws are diamond hard or I'll just blind him with my eye beams). I can understand what you are going for with this Power flavorwise, but I am not sure if an Weapon 2 that can not be disarmed and is always with you is worth 2 refresh. As for the name maybe something like, Weaponlike Weapons or something. Maybe Weapon Shaped? Dunno needs thinking.
@4: Had no problem with this, it is just when I read the power the first thing that popped into my head was an exploding fist, which made me giggle.
P.S. Damn right.
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Are you saying if I make a character with Claws and then later he discovers he can shoot them like missiles, that this ranged attack uses Fists?
Makes sense to me.
@3: Why can't it add a defense trapping to another skill? Also the name bugs me, because to me it implies that claws are not part of a character's body. Also it seems a bit redundant unless you really want to use Weapons. From the way this power is described you can just use fist and this power justifies blocking most attacks ( my claws are diamond hard or I'll just blind him with my eye beams). I can understand what you are going for with this Power flavorwise, but I am not sure if an Weapon 2 that can not be disarmed and is always with you is worth 2 refresh. As for the name maybe something like, Weaponlike Weapons or something. Maybe Weapon Shaped? Dunno needs thinking.
You should read the last two pages. It's all about whether or not Integrated weapons/Defensive weaponry works. I'm still not sure.
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I have read the last two pages ;D
Funnily enough, it seems we are mostly sitting at the same place on this...The I Dunno let me think about it stage. Basically I was just throwing in my .02 on this...
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2. Yes, you can attack at range with Fists. Superman's eyebeams are probably Fists-based, since to the best of my knowledge he has no skill with weaponry of any sort.
And this power is not supposed to equal the damage output of Channeling. Pretty much nothing is. There are good reasons for that.
3. Yes, the name sucks. If you have a better idea, I want to hear it. Bear in mind that any idea needs to be expressible in this format: Potent Ranged X Natural Weaponry. For convenience reasons.
This power is balanced against being unarmed, not against being armed. This can make it weak in games where players can use whatever weapons they choose without worry of losing them. This is unfortunate, but it's better than the alternatives.
It's not impossible to add a defense trapping to Guns, but there is no logical reason for this power to do that.
The main benefit of Integrated Weaponry isn't really the weapon 2, it's the unification of Fists and Weapons.
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I think I wanted to have the option to add a defense trapping to Guns because I wanted to...So this point will no longer be pursued.
Hmm will think on better name for Weaponlike Natural Weapons.
I still think scaling the weapon value off a skill has some merit, but I fluffed my defense roll (ran out of ideas and arguments) and so I am taken out of this conflict with the moderate consequence "Silenced with Logic" for now anyway...