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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on May 04, 2021, 06:04:09 PM
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It isn't because she wants a closer alliance with the White Court, I doubt that she needs this marriage for that. No, what she wants is to drive a wedge between Harry and Molly. Mab has come to realize that Molly and Harry together are more than a match for her. She also knows it has a chance of getting closer after Murphy's death, so to prevent that she wants him to marry Lara. I doubt that Mab wants Lara as her successor, and I doubt that Lara wants to be her successor. All Lara cares about is her family's well being and power, she'd mostly stay out of Mab's way and use her if possible. More importantly she might be able to neuter Harry in a "proud cut" sort of matter so while he will continue to have all the spirit he had before, it is less likely he will unite with Molly to be a threat to Mab and her over all plans.
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Except that Mab wants Harry and Molly work closer together, she told Harry once. It is as it should be between Lady and Knight.
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Except that Mab wants Harry and Molly work closer together, she told Harry once. It is as it should be between Lady and Knight.
But does she? Really? Yes, closer together as long as Mab has over all control. She knows that in any dispute, Molly will always have Harry's back, we saw that at the end of Skin Game. She doesn't like the power dynamic, another reason for her to tell Harry to kill her if something happens to her. The reason being not because she thinks Molly isn't ready or strong enough, but she doesn't like the direction she thinks that Molly and Harry would take the Winter Court.
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But does she? Really? Yes, closer together as long as Mab has over all control. She knows that in any dispute, Molly will always have Harry's back, we saw that at the end of Skin Game. She doesn't like the power dynamic, another reason for her to tell Harry to kill her if something happens to her. The reason being not because she thinks Molly isn't ready or strong enough, but she doesn't like the direction she thinks that Molly and Harry would take the Winter Court.
I think Mab is genuinely only interested in doing her job. Besides how would Harry killl Molly if he was not close to her?
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I doubt that Mab really needs a marriage to cement an alliance, too. And I honestly can't wrap my head around why on earth would Mab want Lara as a successor.
I think that this might be about breaking both Molly and Harry, their relationship and their individual spirits. Maybe because indeed they working together could be a force to oppose her, her purpose or plan, anyway. But mostly, I think it might be about breaking Molly's spirit. It's clear that Molly is still hung up on Harry, and the whole thing with Carlos was already traumatic for her. And Molly is trying to remain human. But Mab probably thinks she needs to not make the same mistake she thinks she made with Maeve. She needs to make her successor strong, that successor is Molly. And for winter, that's through pain.
Mab needs to change both, Harry and Molly, toughen them up for what's coming, and that probably means breaking them, not apart, but from who they were before they took up the mantles, the people in their past and all of that.
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The apocalypse is coming. Give or take a few years, in less time than it takes to write the books probably. Mab is preparing for it and keeping the white court on board is important as Vadderung knows as well, Freydis is not there by accident.
The white court can also be used to keep the mortals quiet so very valuable. I tend to believe Mab in this. The shit is going to hit the fan and she wants to be prepared for it. I don’t think she is going to waste time in useless schemes now.
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I don't think the marriage was necessary, but it's better than other means because it serves her purposes better. It lets her get two things done at once, it's efficient.
Because there isn't any scheme here, she's being very upfront. She wants an alliance, yes, and she's getting one, the marriage works for that. She wants her new vassals to grow up and toughen up and she's getting that too, the moral and psychological effects of the marriage work for that too.
It's like "The woman you loved just died, tough luck Harry, there's work to do", "The man you love is with someone else and there's nothing you can do about it, again it's not you, tough luck Molly, you don't get what you want" "There's work to do, your happiness doesn't matter, what matter is what's necessary".
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Or maybe...
Mab has said she would sacrifice herself if need be to stop the Outsiders. What if she's trying to push Harry and Molly into being ready to replace her, so that when the day comes, she sacrifices herself, and they slot right in cause they've been planning to overthrow her (rather than as Harry is mostly plotting now, abandon her).
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I disagree, I think that the marriage is very important. Remember, these are old beings, and they play by old rules. In their eyes, marriage is much more sacred and special than how many of us see marriage. This will form a near unbreakable bond with the White Court. The thing I do not understand is why the White Court? Yes, Lara is smart and powerful, but at the end of the day, the White Court as a whole is not that impressive (IMO). Sure they have sex powers and can do some cool things but compared to other nations; they are not that great.
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I disagree, I think that the marriage is very important. Remember, these are old beings, and they play by old rules. In their eyes, marriage is much more sacred and special than how many of us see marriage. This will form a near unbreakable bond with the White Court. The thing I do not understand is why the White Court? Yes, Lara is smart and powerful, but at the end of the day, the White Court as a whole is not that impressive (IMO). Sure they have sex powers and can do some cool things but compared to other nations; they are not that great.
They are great at influencing and controling mortals.
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The White Court is probably the most powerful of all the Accorded Nations in influence and wealth. They're not going to win a straight up magical slugfest and Ghouls and Black Court may be better one on one but there are more White Court out there and numbers matter.
They are not as big a military power, that is probably still the Formor, but the ability to live alongside mortal society seamlessly while still exerting subtle and effective influence can't be overlooked.
A White Court noble can go anywhere, without glamour, and charm local politicians and business leaders.
Their spies don't appear as any thing other than attractive and physically capable humans. And their allure in attracting allies is unmatched.
Greater powers will deceive themselves into thinking they are in control when they are often being manipulated.
Recruits from mortals are even easier. They pay well, Lara is drilling into them that they need to have a least an inner cadre of well treated muscle, and the lure of frequent and freaky sex with male and female models and athletes will always be there.
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I think it's more likely she wants to bolster Lara and promote her assumption of the open Queen of the White Court. What better way to do that than marry her Knight to Lara? Harry is a magical sledgehammer. He also is immune to Outsider influence, which the White Court seems to have a problem with. And if Lara is Nfected, Harry knows Mab can cure it.
As far as Molly, having her arrange the courtship and wedding is a way to encourage Molly to abandon her humanity, if only to spare herself from the pain of seeing the man she loves marry another, up close.
Mab never does anything for a single reason.
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The thing I do not understand is why the White Court? Yes, Lara is smart and powerful, but at the end of the day, the White Court as a whole is not that impressive (IMO). Sure they have sex powers and can do some cool things but compared to other nations; they are not that great.
I don't think you're putting enough currency on how smart Lara is. It's not just intelligence, it's that she doesn't get stuck in mental ruts like most of the other immortals. She moves with the times, and she's accumulated significant influence with the vanilla political leadership.
Plus, she was the architect of the Stokerlypse. That's gotta count for something.
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Plus, Lara was behind the entire plot of WK. She set up both competing WCourt houses to knock each other out. And while it wasn't her plan, she was the one who suggested they use the plan to kill magical women to try to kill off wizards and witches. And she knew that Harry would step in and stop them.
Lara has been planning like Mab for a while now and has probably caught her attention because of it.
Mab plans upon plans upon plans. She is wise but only sees the darkness. The cold calculating side of things. Lara does the same.
And there is one more thing that makes Mab and Lara very similar, family. They both love their family, but they also would sacrifice them for the greater good. Thomas may be the exception to that, but Lara could also have wanted him saved because he is the only surviving male Raith besides slave Papa.
Now, as for Harry and Molly, yeah, I can see Mab creating a wall between them. Mab wants for Molly to lose her humanity. She tried it earlier by keeping Molly away from Harry between CD and SG. She kept Harry isolated on the island, trying to make him not trust his friends and making his friends not trust him. If not for Murphy and the mind bond that Harry and Molly established in GS, he and Molly may not have restored the bond they have.
This feels like another attempt to push them apart, to mold them as she feels fit. While other deities like Mr Sunshine and Odin want Harry and Molly to push back, that they are what is needed for the future.
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I think that Mab knew how the chips would fall between Dresden and the White Council. She knows that Dresden, on his own would be a big target. He'd have absolutely no protection. As Lara's husband he'd be part of a member of the Accords again. He could go places that would have to respect the laws, which wouldn't be the case if he wasn't. Also to target him, would be to invite retribution from the White Court. They might not love him, but to openly target him would be a sign of disrespect that would force them to respond.
Mab knows this and this is why she wanted him with her. Harry is most likely in danger from other members of the White Court, but it's better than being targeted by pretty much everyone from everywhere.
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I think that Mab knew how the chips would fall between Dresden and the White Council. She knows that Dresden, on his own would be a big target. He'd have absolutely no protection. As Lara's husband he'd be part of a member of the Accords again. He could go places that would have to respect the laws, which wouldn't be the case if he wasn't. Also to target him, would be to invite retribution from the White Court. They might not love him, but to openly target him would be a sign of disrespect that would force them to respond.
Mab knows this and this is why she wanted him with her. Harry is most likely in danger from other members of the White Court, but it's better than being targeted by pretty much everyone from everywhere.
Harry is the winter knight and as such member of the accords. He is also a member of Mab’s court. Both offer serious protection in places that respect the laws of Mab’s accords. The white council is afraid enough not to pursue its death penalty. Lara would offer some extra protection but also dangers and even more problems with the white council and Eb in particular.
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Harry is the winter knight and as such member of the accords. He is also a member of Mab’s court. Both offer serious protection in places that respect the laws of Mab’s accords. The white council is afraid enough not to pursue its death penalty. Lara would offer some extra protection but also dangers and even more problems with the white council and Eb in particular.
I cannot help but think there is more to it. Protections for Harry? I think the way Mab would see it is if he cannot protect himself, she doesn't need him as a Knight. I am thinking of the look Molly gave Lara, that Harry admits now that he missed when they came ashore after the battle with the Krackon
in Peace Talks. I cannot help but think there is more to it than just her objection to the marriage, it is a set up of some kind by Mab and Lara.
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I cannot help but think there is more to it. Protections for Harry? I think the way Mab would see it is if he cannot protect himself, she doesn't need him as a Knight. I am thinking of the look Molly gave Lara, that Harry admits now that he missed when they came ashore after the battle with the Krackon
in Peace Talks. I cannot help but think there is more to it than just her objection to the marriage, it is a set up of some kind by Mab and Lara.
That depends on the threat. We have already seen that Mab did protect Harry against feeding by Lara. I am sure that if someone out of Harry’s league breaks the accords by attacking Harry she will see it as an attack on her unless it is somehow Harry’s fault.
And of course Molly has problems with Lara now.
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That depends on the threat. We have already seen that Mab did protect Harry against feeding by Lara. I am sure that if someone out of Harry’s league breaks the accords by attacking Harry she will see it as an attack on her unless it is somehow Harry’s fault.
And of course Molly has problems with Lara now.
I think feeding is the least of it.
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I think feeding is the least of it.
Sure but it does show that Mab will protect her knight if she deems in necessary, if her hon or demands it or if she is simply obliged to do so. Harry is expected to handle certain threats but not something he can not be expected to handle on his own.
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I cannot help but think there is more to it. Protections for Harry? I think the way Mab would see it is if he cannot protect himself, she doesn't need him as a Knight. I am thinking of the look Molly gave Lara, that Harry admits now that he missed when they came ashore after the battle with the Krackon
in Peace Talks. I cannot help but think there is more to it than just her objection to the marriage, it is a set up of some kind by Mab and Lara.
Mab has the idea that if Dresden gets into trouble it's up to him to get out of it. She's not stupid, she knows he has limits, and can be killed. He's valuable to her, and she wants her weapon to be safe, for now. so yes I think she would try to get him protection.
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I doubt that Mab really needs a marriage to cement an alliance, too. And I honestly can't wrap my head around why on earth would Mab want Lara as a successor.
I think that this might be about breaking both Molly and Harry, their relationship and their individual spirits. Maybe because indeed they working together could be a force to oppose her, her purpose or plan, anyway. But mostly, I think it might be about breaking Molly's spirit. It's clear that Molly is still hung up on Harry, and the whole thing with Carlos was already traumatic for her. And Molly is trying to remain human. But Mab probably thinks she needs to not make the same mistake she thinks she made with Maeve. She needs to make her successor strong, that successor is Molly. And for winter, that's through pain.
Mab needs to change both, Harry and Molly, toughen them up for what's coming, and that probably means breaking them, not apart, but from who they were before they took up the mantles, the people in their past and all of that.
You make some very good points; however, Mab; like most of the really smart players in the supernatural world, often makes plans to fulfill multiple goals at the same time. Some of these goals can be major; such as your suggestion that Mab is trying to mold Harry and Molly into the weapons she wants them to become. Other, simpler goals could also part of the Winter Queen's agenda. For example, there is a current thread questioning if the White Council will make an attempt against Harry's life in the next book. It's possible Mab wants to draw any of Harry's would-be assassins out, to identify and get rid of them or suppress them while there aren't any major crisis's occurring. Mab may also have a good reason or reasons for wanting the alliance with the White Court that hasn't been fully explained yet.
If I was in Lara's shoes; wow, would my feet be uncomfortable, but mostly I would wonder what Mab's secondary or even tertiary goals are for agreeing to the alliance. Knowing Mab, she not only believes the White Court can be useful for accomplishing some concrete goal, the White Court or Lara herself might make a good fall guy if Mab feels she might need one. (It's too murky to predict specific reasons for Mab needing a fall guy, but it might involve members of the White Council or some other supernatural power getting killed and not having Winter implicated in their deaths.)
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I think Mab does need a marriage to cement this alliance. Bonds to kin are extremely important in Dresden Files, not only that, but alliances by mere agreements or concessions can but subverted through treachery. The type of treachery that a lone or subverted individual might initiate to implicate an entire organization ala The White Court's financial dealings tied to La Fortier's murder, which Mai views suspiciously. This despite both factions being in a cease-fire or state of neutrality.
A marriage however? That reduces any form of treachery as work of a traitor or lone wolf by the very nature of both Courts being tied as kin. Any attack against kin is viewed as an attack against one's own self interest. Especially a marriage between two members of the Accords where old school rules and obligations apply. Only someone acting *against* the will, and self interest of their respective organizations would dare do that. An example of this is shown in White Night, where despite the stand down order of the White King, two opposing internal factions disobey those orders under pretense of acting in the best interest of the entire White Court, thus giving them a pass until Dresden calls them out. A marriage between factions closes that loophole.
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It's not Mab that needs this alliance, though it will work out well for her. It's Lara.
Lara knows something is coming and wants in on the ground floor and knows Harry is a key component. She wants a place at the table.
Now, as for Mab, just because she told Lara not to eat her Knight doesn't mean she doesn't want her to try. It may be what Mab wants to make Harry more pliable to her wants without Harry realizing that it is happening. Lara is the type of person to try just because she was told not to.
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Mab wants Harry to be more compliant with Mab not having a second boss, Lara. I think part of Mab likes that Harry is a bit defiant.
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Mab wants Harry to be more compliant with Mab not having a second boss, Lara. I think part of Mab likes that Harry is a bit defiant.
As I said, I don't see Lara's agenda always being that of Mab.. I also don't see Harry going along with Lara at every turn either.
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It's not Mab that needs this alliance, though it will work out well for her. It's Lara.
Glad to see somebody else sees this. Papa Raith is dying or he's coming back. Pick your poison. Either way it will put Lara under the gun. In addition something connects them out of the past, I just won't live to see what.
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Glad to see somebody else sees this. Papa Raith is dying or he's coming back. Pick your poison. Either way it will put Lara under the gun. In addition something connects them out of the past, I just won't live to see what.
A confrontation between Harry and Papa Raith could be fun.
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Glad to see somebody else sees this. Papa Raith is dying or he's coming back. Pick your poison. Either way it will put Lara under the gun. In addition something connects them out of the past, I just won't live to see what.
You know, I was just thinking the other day about how Papa Raith was surviving without feeding. We see Thomas in PT being thrashed to an inch of his life, his body healing, being thrashed again, over and over until his reserves are spent and his body is eating itself. How is Papa not in the state that Thomas is in after everything he has gone through since BR.
Also, believe. Your going to see the end of the series. ;D
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Glad to see somebody else sees this. Papa Raith is dying or he's coming back. Pick your poison. Either way it will put Lara under the gun.
Makes me wonder how well the curse on him is going to hold up with Thomas in stasis and Harry pulled away to the Mirror world.
A lot is going to be riding on whether Maggie and Thomas' nem-baby can sustain it via their bloodline to Maggie Sr.
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This is a good topic, IMHO.
Personally, I believe that Mab considers the marriage very important. It's a contract, it's high magic and it will be very public -- all of which Mab, Harry and Molly talk about or think at various points during the final chapter of Battleground.
It will bind the White Court -- through Lara -- to Winter. It will give Harry protection from, and separate him further from the White Council. Mab can hardly be unaware of the fact that Harry's connection to both Winter and the White Court was the pretext for expelling him.
Molly is not a suitable candidate for the Queen of Winter. She will be one day. But right now, the man she loves, her parents, her brothers and sisters and their children are all alive. In a hundred years when the people she knew as a mortal are all gone, she will be more prepared to have mastered her emotions and act as the ruthless calculating machine that is needed to protect reality from the Outsiders.
The Winter Lady isn't a crazed ball of hormones, unsatisfied lust and megalomania without a reason. If the Winter Lady is an apprenticeship for the Winter Queen the Mantle of the Lady is testing her in the most brutal way possible to control herself and act rationally.
Now Lara, at this instant in time, is actually a much better candidate than Molly for Winter Queen. While she also has some passions, she's had centuries to train her self control and to engage in the ruthless machinations of the White Court. She's also shown her rational side by making good use of mortal "ferromancy," and hirelings. This is in marked contrast to many immortals, who disdain mortals and see them as cattle. Lara is different -- more like Odin and Mab -- as Lara sees humans as resources to be developed and carefully exploited in a sustainable way. It is a very short step from this to protecting them, we take care of resources that we own but "ruin the commons."
Interestingly, I wonder whether Harry and Lara might be able to "know each other" in a biblical manner, as man and succubus. Possibility A -- the Winter Knight, like the adolescent big foot, is simply too large of an energy source to actually be consumed by Lara's hunger. She could draw on Winter, but Winter is simply too big to eat. Also, Harry notes that extreme exercise helps him keep Winter at bay. This reminds me of Justine, who's emotional state was settled by Thomas' attention. Possibility B -- Winter can quiet the Hunger. Recall Auntie Lea putting Susan's hunger to sleep. True, it knocked out Susan, but the Red Court's vampirism is MUCH more profound than the White Court's. I suspect that the original White Court vampire was a pre-White Council wizard who studied the Red Court and tried to over come their weaknesses. Essentially, he cut a deal or performed a ritual to try and achieve immortality.
In either event, this could be a win-win for both of them. Lara gets fed without killing mortals; Harry gets Winter put in check, plus sex-vampire nookie. As I said, win-win.
A final thought. It is interesting to me that the White Court "oath" is shared with the Outsiders. "Empty Night" is used by both groups. Surely, this is not a coincidence. Is this a relic of Lord Wraith's dabbling beyond the Outer Gates? or is it something more fundamental. McCoy has shared that something is behind Harry's phrase of "Stars and Stones," and it's likely that "Hell's Bells" has some significance to the plot as well.