I agree on the death flags, but I'd expected she'd fall fighting one of the monsters, not getting shot by Rudolph. That seemed like a bizarre way for her to go, which is why it felt odd to me. :shrug:
Me as well, and while one could argue in the context of everything she did die to save others. It really isn't true, she died stupidly at the hands of an insane careless cop. Not a hero's death at all.
Exactly! That is why I feel like there has to be something more.
Remember how when Harry was cut by Butter's and there was the smell of sulfur? What if Nicodemus did this as a way to try and make Harry go dark side? That if Harry gets angry enough, and has enough hate, the connection between him, and Lasciel could be restored? Maybe the point of Murphy's death was an attempt to make Harry go all the way bad?
I agree on the death flags, but I'd expected she'd fall fighting one of the monsters, not getting shot by Rudolph. That seemed like a bizarre way for her to go, which is why it felt odd to me. :shrug:
But now, that death, Murphy's death at the hand of a human seems to me to be very significant in terms of the series and had you always intended that that was going to be the case since you started thinking about it more seriously?
What I really thought about it was "what's the /worst/ way for Murphy to die?" Not like the most painful or the most dramatic but the one that would be the worst for the people who loved and supported her. What is going to make the reader suffer the most to read and so it's like she can't die in battle she has to die and it's got to be to this weasel, she can't be taken straight-up because it's not who her character is but to be killed by this weasel sort of by accident almost, you know death by incompetence seems to be even worse *unintelligible*. I had a lot of fun planning that out and I know there's a lot of people who are really angry at me and to them I can say "well keep reading we'll see what happens".
Yup, the worst way for Murphy to die, was the way she did, a stupid wasteful way, not heroic at all.
What is going to make the reader suffer the most to read I had a lot of fun planning that out and I know there's a lot of people who are really angry at me and to them I can say "well keep reading we'll see what happens".I think Jim is underestimating how angry people are at Murphy going out the way she did on top of his sudden disinterest the relationship he spent 17 books building between Harry and Karin before what happened in BG given you can go look on TvTropes and under brokenbase https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BrokenBase/OtherMedia under the lit selection and it's not wrong with friends and family that also walked for good or want to punch Jim in the face. It spells nothing good going forward with Dresden that wants he readers to suffer the most while reading and thinking they are going to come back for another go around is dumb. I have wonder if anyone pulled him a side and ask if he thought it through because of what it might cost him
I think Jim is underestimating how angry people are at Murphy going out the way she did on top of his sudden disinterest the relationship he spent 17 books building between Harry and Karin before what happened in BG given you can go look on TvTropes and under brokenbase https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BrokenBase/OtherMedia under the lit selection and it's not wrong with friends and family that also walked for good or want to punch Jim in the face. It spells nothing good going forward with Dresden that wants he readers to suffer the most while reading and thinking they are going to come back for another go around is dumb. I have wonder if anyone pulled him a side and ask if he thought it through because of what it might cost him
She had literally just blown up a giant, and died fighting to save innocent people..... Her death may have been senseless but she had a heroic death, which is exactly why she was taken up by the Valkyrie.
That's the thing to be mad about... A senseless death.
Could be that Dresden is able to Flip Uriel's gift on it's head and use Hellfire instead of Soulfire if he gets mad enough.
I kind of think Michael was just wrong about it being "a death that cannot be avoided". I think it just looks like that if you're a Knight with no access to counter-magic, but Harry's heavy wards on the house were enough to reduce impossible to merely difficult. The Walker's entropy curse one book later seemed to be described as an even more potent curse, and Harry could counter that with massive effort to redirect it or sufficient preparation to reflect it.
Given the "two sides of the same coin" explanation of the relationship between soulfire and hellfire, I find that suggestion highly likely.
With Rudolph seeming shocked at having pulled the trigger, I do wonder if something nudged him. Not sure if it was the Barrabus curse - Lasciel or Anduriel breaking the rules again to whisper "fire" into his head are also candidates.
I've never been sure Michael was right in attributing the events of DM to Shiro taking on the curse to spare Harry, though. He died of being massively tortured and then infected with the superplague, not some bizarre coincidence. It also seems like entropy curses kill pretty immediately, and sacrificing himself to that would have violated his promise not to die for 24 hours.
I kind of think Michael was just wrong about it being "a death that cannot be avoided". I think it just looks like that if you're a Knight with no access to counter-magic, but Harry's heavy wards on the house were enough to reduce impossible to merely difficult. The Walker's entropy curse one book later seemed to be described as an even more potent curse, and Harry could counter that with massive effort to redirect it or sufficient preparation to reflect it.
I think Jim is underestimating how angry people are at Murphy going out the way she did on top of his sudden disinterest the relationship he spent 17 books building between Harry and Karin before what happened in BG given you can go look on TvTropes and under brokenbase https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BrokenBase/OtherMedia under the lit selection and it's not wrong with friends and family that also walked for good or want to punch Jim in the face. It spells nothing good going forward with Dresden that wants he readers to suffer the most while reading and thinking they are going to come back for another go around is dumb. I have wonder if anyone pulled him a side and ask if he thought it through because of what it might cost him
I don't think Jim is writing for the readers, more like he's trying to write stories the way he wants to. But you've got a point about reactions-- there are some epic rants on Archive of Our Own from some very pissed-off people over Murphy's death. I'm not sure how much the "keep reading" advice is going to mollify them.
Unless things truly start to go downhill, I'm in this for the long haul. I'd prefer to read the stories Butcher wants to tell, organically, rather than something crafted to reader expectations. And I'm way too curious about what comes next to give up now. But not everybody will feel the same. I kind of doubt the sales figures will go down too much because of this, but time will tell.
There's also the fact that if it was Molly or Lara ,Mab or other people favorite's had been killed in what some feel was a ham fisted way that Murphy was most of the fan base I think would not be so accepting of their death they way everyone seems to be okay with Karrin being killed and there would be more backlash toward Butcher
But I can't say I'm not a little troubled by how it came across on the page. Apparently it was a deliberate narrative choice to have Murphy "accidentally" killed, but it did feel a bit ham-fisted to me. Other important characters' deaths (Shiro, Morgan, Susan) felt like natural consequences of the storyline. For me, this seemed more abrupt, like, "well, the plot says it's gonna happen now, so here it is, boom." Maybe that's because there were so many other things going on that there wasn't time for Harry to really deal with it, and we'll get more resolution in Twelve Months, or in future novels.
Q - "But now, that death, Murphy's death at the hand of a human seems to me to be very significant in terms of the series and had you always intended that that was going to be the case since you started thinking about it more seriously?"Jim likes to say that he doesn't torture his characters, he tortures his readers, and I get what why he does this. However, there's a time when torturing the readers makes sense because it's something that's a natural progression to the story. My feeling is that when Jim first had Nicodemus beat the living crap out of Murphy and finally killed her off in Battle Ground, it felt more like the author had pushed events the way he wanted them to go rather than a natural progression of the story. I felt Jim did this for a couple of reasons. First, he wanted to torture his readers by breaking the expectations that many of them had that Murphy would or should become a KotC. It felt to me that Jim was doing more than breaking expectations. It came very close to feeling that Jim was giving those fans the middle finger. Of course, the second reason is Jim had already decided a decade ago that he was going to kill off Murphy.
A. - "What I really thought about it was "what's the /worst/ way for Murphy to die?" Not like the most painful or the most dramatic but the one that would be the worst for the people who loved and supported her. What is going to make the reader suffer the most to read and so it's like she can't die in battle she has to die and it's got to be to this weasel, she can't be taken straight-up because it's not who her character is but to be killed by this weasel sort of by accident almost, you know death by incompetence seems to be even worse *unintelligible*. I had a lot of fun planning that out and I know there's a lot of people who are really angry at me and to them I can say "well keep reading we'll see what happens".
While Jim doesn't work for usHe can do a happy dance celebrating that fact. His review would look pitiful if I had to write it. His books have slipped from must buy to must read before owning.
He can do a happy dance celebrating that fact. His review would look pitiful if I had to write it. His books have slipped from must buy to must read before owning.
The way Jim had Harry deal with it was dumb and the way after Butter snapped Harry out of the red mist and it was never really brought up again was also irritating. Then we get the Gard at the funeral give Murphy fans more of a slap in the face with the "Not until all memory of her is faded" BS kinda boils down to Murphy got the power up she needed but no she doesn't get to use it instead she gets put on a shelf.
We also get Mab forcing Harry and Lara together which didn't help how H and K fans felt I didn't like that entire scene with Harry regardless of Lara and Molly stopping him from saying something that would get him killed seamed out of character for Harry to with way that would tread on anybody's sore spot that a person you love is dead and he just swallow's all the back sass and back talk that normal comes from someone telling him what to do. I can see why and sort of agree with one my friends that it felt like a giant FU from Butcher toward Murph fans and I think Jim is still not really getting the full backlash from doing what he did given none of cons are open to where I feel he would get the most backlash from Murph fans given how much the Dresden Reddit and FB groups are anti-Murphy and have been for awhile so his view might be lacking the full picture but I guess time well tell
I don't want to tread on toes, here, but are you stating it is your belief that Jim must suffer for what he did to Murphy, in a story he created and that he controls, in a story that is not about her but about a different character (Harry Dresden)?
I don't want to tread on toes, here, but are you stating it is your belief that Jim must suffer for what he did to Murphy, in a story he created and that he controls, in a story that is not about her but about a different character (Harry Dresden)?
It's the kinda ham-fisted way he went about killing Murphy on top of giving H and K shippers what they had waited for 16 books for only to then slap them in the face with BG and then in the interview where talking about why he did it and how he wanted his readers and Murph supporters to suffer the most while reading that on top then telling the people that are still around and pissed about it to keep reading is the thing that makes me want to ask Jim "Really you think that telling them to keep reading after you angered them and kinda slapped them in face is going get them to come back". I feel is a dumb thought on his part
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Re: The Barabbas curse
« Reply #32 on: Today at 03:54:57 PM »
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She was a holy knight- for a few hours. Most knights, per the books and WoJ both, only are chosen a short time. Current situation is freaky unusual.
She isn't the first important character he has killed off. I think the problem lies more with the direction the series is taken. Murphy the cop fit perfectly with Harry the wizard private investigator, even with some shipping or their struggle against it. Murphy, as she has been since Harry became Winter Knight, not so much. I think Jim has been struggling to find a fit for her and it couldn't be done. She was perfect as originally written and she didn't evolve well, so he killed her off. Alternatively he could have put her in the F.B.I. or restored her place on the police force, and have her recede into the background where she might show up on rare occasions. However if he did feel he had to kill her off, at least have her go out with more dignity than she did.
Actually not, when we first meet the Knights, all three do it on a regular basis. Sanya is still a Knight, Shiro died, Michael retired, so the job for the last two Swords has been temporary until Butters got the job, which leaves only one for temp jobs. Murphy was offered the Sword on a permanent basis, she refused, she then took it upon herself to become custodian of the Swords, which she wasn't assigned and wasn't suited for.
In series it's Nicodemus, I think, who tells us most Knights don't serve very long.
There is also a WoJ to that effect. I'll see if I can find it this afternoon. No chance on the Nic quote- I have a 2 year old daddy's girl at home. My time digging references from books is a bit on hiatus for another couple of years.
She isn't the first important character he has killed off. I think the problem lies more with the direction the series is taken. Murphy the cop fit perfectly with Harry the wizard private investigator, even with some shipping or their struggle against it. Murphy, as she has been since Harry became Winter Knight, not so much. I think Jim has been struggling to find a fit for her and it couldn't be done. She was perfect as originally written and she didn't evolve well, so he killed her off. Alternatively he could have put her in the F.B.I. or restored her place on the police force, and have her recede into the background where she might show up on rare occasions. However if he did feel he had to kill her off, at least have her go out with more dignity than she did.She's by far the most important death so far.
She's by far the most important death so far.
I dunno... Susan's sacrifice, and death was used to kill the entire Red Court, and set in motion the rise of the Fomor. On a personal level, Harry was forced to kill the woman he loved, and mother of his child, leaving him as a single parent. Of all the deaths in the book, I'd say hers was the most significant when it comes to how it effected the rest of the Dresdenverse, and Harry.
I'm talking in regards to the Dresdenverse, and not when it comes to the books, and fans.
I dunno... Susan's sacrifice, and death was used to kill the entire Red Court, and set in motion the rise of the Fomor. On a personal level, Harry was forced to kill the woman he loved, and mother of his child, leaving him as a single parent. Of all the deaths in the book, I'd say hers was the most significant when it comes to how it effected the rest of the Dresdenverse, and Harry.
I'm talking in regards to the Dresdenverse, and not when it comes to the books, and fans.
Yes, he will mourn Murphy for sure, and her life wasn't insignificant.. However a reminder of Susan hugs him every day, looks at him with Susan's brown eyes and tells him, "Daddy, I love you.."In terms of character importance it's no contest and she almost certainly wins in terms of importance to Harry too. How often has he thought about Susan since she died for example?
Actually the Barabbas curse fits Susan more than anyone, she took the hit meant for Harry and her daughter, and instead of of her daughter and all her kin dying, the curse wiped out the whole Red Court.
In terms of character importance it's no contest and she almost certainly wins in terms of importance to Harry too. How often has he thought about Susan since she died for example?
She was a holy knight- for a few hours. Most knights, per the books and WoJ both, only are chosen a short time. Current situation is freaky unusual.When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.
Even on Sesame Street, some characters suffer. Murphy doesn't even exist. I've been online for a longtime, feeling upset and reacting I get, feeling that an author "deserves" punishment, though- that's surprising.
When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.You mean that they are either more powerful, or smarter than the lead male character? Susan and Murphy who weren't more intelligent, or powerful matched his courage.
One of the biggest complaints about the series is how Jim treats women.
Murphy was the only female character to make it this far.
Susan was sacrificed for a child that serves no point in the series.Everything is about Dresden, and how things affect him in the stories. Having a child is one of the biggest things a person can experience, and much of what has happened is because of his child. He never would have become Winter Knight if not for her, and what that choice has led to. Susan's sacrifice also ended the Red Court war, the White Council should have a marble statue of her erected at their headquarters.
Murphy was killed to prop up Butters.yes because Harry wasn't effected by her death, and him getting with Lara isn't a direct result, or her returning in the future as a Valkyrie will serve no purpose.
Who also serves no purpose.I'm sure fans of Butters would disagree, and their opinion is just as valuable as yours.
There are no female characters that aren't f***ed up. We have the inhumans, a vampire sex pot, a failed wizard, an nemfected drone and a body swapped Warden old lady in a young women's body.
If someone isn't a fan of the story, they should read something else.I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here. And I'm vested in the characters or I wouldn't care. And I've read thousands of other books. I've also quit reading when it became intolerable. I'm not quite there yet on Dresden.
I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here. And I'm vested in the characters or I wouldn't care. And I've read thousands of other books. I've also quit reading when it became intolerable. I'm not quite there yet on Dresden.
As to the rest, these are story criticisms. Of course others disagree with me. But IMO not every women that Harry is involved with need to come to a bad end. Just once it would be nice to see a women kick him to the curb without having a blade drawn across her throat.
Murphy was killed to prop up Butters.
Susan was sacrificed for a child that serves no point in the series.
There are no female characters that aren't f***ed up.
I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here. And I'm vested in the characters or I wouldn't care. And I've read thousands of other books. I've also quit reading when it became intolerable. I'm not quite there yet on Dresden.Fair enough
Just once it would be nice to see a women kick him to the curb without having a blade drawn across her throat.
When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.Yep, he basically killed the deuteragonist of the series, of course people are going to be upset about that.
One of the biggest complaints about the series is how Jim treats women. Murphy was the only female character to make it this far. Every female has been neutered or killed over the course of the series. Susan was sacrificed for a child that serves no point in the series. Murphy was killed to prop up Butters. Who also serves no purpose. There are no female characters that aren't f***ed up. We have the inhumans, a vampire sex pot, a failed wizard, an nemfected drone and a body swapped Warden old lady in a young women's body.
Yep, he basically killed the deuteragonist of the series, of course people are going to be upset about that.
Was she? How about Thomas? Mab? Several others I can name..
Wait a second. "Just once it would be nice to see a women kick him to the curb ". Sounds like you have an issue with Dresden? I mean the language you use is pretty incendiary.. So what's your problem with him?Harry is a character in a book. I have no issue with "him". I have issues with Jim's writing.
Harry has been dumped, by Luccio, and she happens to still be alive.She was raped by proxy. She was the victim but the saving grace was that Harry wasn't the one who set it up. Can you think of another way to think about it?
Harry is a character in a book. I have no issue with "him". I have issues with Jim's writing.She was raped by proxy. She was the victim but the saving grace was that Harry wasn't the one who set it up. Can you think of another way to think about it?
@Mira
These are story choices. I understand what he did. But I'm questioning how his values and mine align in terms of what he does with his characters. Perhaps this is the wrong venue for the criticism I'm making, so I'll put it to bed.
Who recently annoyed Nicodemus and whose death would cause Harry a lot of pain? Murphy. I think Nicodemus sent the Barrabus curse to kill Murphy, and the curse used Rudolph's poor trigger discipline as a weapon. When Harry finds this out, he will go berserk and hunt Nicodemus down.
Peace Talks, Ch 5:
“I remembered her scream when Nicodemus had kicked in her knee. The ugly, wet crunching sound when he’d calmly forced her arm out of its socket, tearing apart her rotator and hyperextending her elbow at the same time. He’d done it deliberately, inflicted as much damage, as much pain, as he could.”
Interview for Dragoncon 2020
Now we'll move onto that elephant in the room. Regarding that event that occurs at the halfway point of Battle Ground, how long have you been planning that and how much hatemail have you received since? I'm joking about the last part.
Oh um, I've been planning that one for about fifteen years so I'd been looking forward to that. I only decided on it for sure about ten years ago but I've been toying with it for about fifteen so.
...
What I really thought about it was "what's the /worst/ way for Murphy to die?" Not like the most painful or the most dramatic but the one that would be the worst for the people who loved and supported her. What is going to make the reader suffer the most to read and so it's like she can't die in battle she has to die and it's got to be to this weasel, she can't be taken straight-up because it's not who her character is but to be killed by this weasel sort of by accident almost, you know death by incompetence seems to be even worse *unintelligible*. I had a lot of fun planning that out and I know there's a lot of people who are really angry at me and to them I can say "well keep reading we'll see what happens"
Right because it is the Dresdenverse after all right so...
Yeah there's a lot of stuff going on there so who knows?
Battle Ground, Ch 36:
“I nodded. Then after a while, I said, “If she’s an Einherjar, now . . .”
Gard shook her head. “Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is the limit not even the Allfather may cross.”
Remember how when Harry was cut by Butter's and there was the smell of sulfur? What if Nicodemus did this as a way to try and make Harry go dark side? That if Harry gets angry enough, and has enough hate, the connection between him, and Lasciel could be restored? Maybe the point of Murphy's death was an attempt to make Harry go all the way bad?
Peace Talks, Ch 32:
“What if …” I swallowed. “What if that’s me, one day? What if that’s what I’m like?”
“There’s a difference between you and him,” Murph said.
“Yeah?”
She moved a bit, leaned down, and kissed my forehead. “Yeah. You’ve got me.”
And … something little and warm kindled in my heart. It didn’t stop the pain. Oh God, did it not stop the pain.
But it told me the pain wouldn’t be there forever.”
Battle Ground, Ch 17:
“I hate that you’re here with me,” I said.
“I know.”
“And I’m glad that you’re here with me.”
“I know.”
I held her against me for a moment and whispered, “I’m scared. What’s happening inside me. Stay close. Please.”
Her hand clenched my wrist, fiercely, for a beat. “I’m here.”
Battle Ground, Ch 36:
“Do you know why I wanted Murph to stay out of the fight?” I asked.
“Because you’d given up on her,” Michael said.”
“No, it was because I’d given up on . . . Oh, yes.” I cleared my throat. “On some level, I had written her off. I knew I was going to be out there without her watching my back.”
Die alone, whispered a voice in my memory.
“She didn’t agree with your assessment,” Michael noted.
“No,” I said quietly. “She had, you know. Hope. Faith. That what she was doing was right and necessary and worth it.”
Yeah, I won't be surprised if the next books don't do as well. I know that the person introduced me to the series is done because of the way Jim wrote the Winter Mantle and Murph getting fridged. What he liked about the series isn't there so why keep going?
I know there's a lot of people who are really angry at me and to them I can say "well keep reading we'll see what happens"Well, no, at least not on a paying basis. I can afford to buy any book he writes(I own the latest two plus the audiobooks), but I don't subsidize writing which makes me cringe. Or at least maybe makes me cringe. I'm undecided. In any case that's what libraries are for.
When you talk about torturing your readers don't be surprised if they talk in terms of punishment, although I doubt angry mobs are going to Colorado with torches and pitchforks.
She was absolutely the longest lasting and most impactful of Harry's long-term allies/supporting cast.
...
Hopefully we'll feel more of a presence from some of the old cast in the upcoming books, but I really don't think so- Murphy is dead, Molly is busy being a Faerie Queen, Thomas is frozen in Carbonite for at least the next couple books.
@BrainFireBob
Why does everyone keep telling me the series isn't about Murphy?
@LaraBeckWell, no, at least not on a paying basis. I can afford to buy any book he writes(I own the latest two plus the audiobooks), but I don't subsidize writing which makes me cringe. Or at least maybe makes me cringe. I'm undecided. In any case that's what libraries are for.
He telegraphed what's coming. Harry or maybe Harry prime are going to Hulk out at some point. He taken Harry to the Hulk alter at least twice to date. First over mommy issues and lastly over Murphy's murder. And has spent a lot of time talking about anger management issues as far back as Summer Knight. Think Shiva...Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds!
@BrainFireBob
Why does everyone keep telling me the series isn't about Murphy?
@LaraBeckWell, no, at least not on a paying basis. I can afford to buy any book he writes(I own the latest two plus the audiobooks), but I don't subsidize writing which makes me cringe. Or at least maybe makes me cringe. I'm undecided. In any case that's what libraries are for.
He telegraphed what's coming. Harry or maybe Harry prime are going to Hulk out at some point. He taken Harry to the Hulk alter at least twice to date. First over mommy issues and lastly over Murphy's murder. And has spent a lot of time talking about anger management issues as far back as Summer Knight. Think Shiva...Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds!
Because you raise the complaint that other characters- or genders- than the main get less central treatment.No. I'm saying all the women in Dresden's life get treated like girls. Here's me talking to my grand daughter about Skin Game.
Honey ignore the fact that Murphy knows the purpose of the swords and she knows what happens when the swords are misused. It really OK for girls to go stupid under pressure and do stupid things, because, well girls will be girls.
No. I'm saying all the women in Dresden's life get treated like girls. Here's me talking to my grand daughter about Skin Game.
I think there is another aspect or drawback to Murphy's death that hasn't been mentioned. She was the major vanilla mortal in the series.
Earlier, I stated that I felt that Murphy had been indifferently written; as a more polite way of saying poorly written, since Changes.
P.S. Nobody reacted to the point I stated earlier, that one the Knights of the Cross could have taken Karrin's place on the chopping block if Nicodemus did use the Barabbas curse. It was pretty clearly stated by Michael in Death Masks that they had the ability to do so.
The fuck does her being a woman have to do with it? People in this series do dumb things regardless of gender.Michael wouldn't have done anything. Michael is a character in a book. If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.
Hell, in The Warrior the only reason that Michael didn't make the exact same mistake as Murphy (only worse) is because Harry intervened. If he hadn't, Michael would have murdered a man in cold blood with Amoracchius.
Michael wouldn't have done anything. Michael is a character in a book. If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.
So Jim chose to cripple Murphy in Skin Game. Then he chose to have her come back in Battle Ground and get shot in the neck. And it works as a story line.
But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll. And she isn't the only female character given this treatment.
Honey ignore the fact that Murphy knows the purpose of the swords and she knows what happens when the swords are misused. It really OK for girls to go stupid under pressure and do stupid things, because, well girls will be girls.
Michael wouldn't have done anything. Michael is a character in a book. If Michael does anything it's because Jim wanted him to.
So Jim chose to cripple Murphy in Skin Game. Then he chose to have her come back in Battle Ground and get shot in the neck. And it works as a story line.
But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll. And she isn't the only female character given this treatment.
But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off.
Honestly though, now I think about it I think I get why people are unhappy with how Murphy's 'heroes journey' went.
She went out and fought the good fight, going up against impossible odds again and again, and she kept bleeding for it. She suffered, she lost things that she held dear, and she finally died because of it. It's a fucking depressing end for a brave and heroic person, and it's also not what people expect- because normally in a story, when the hero fights the good fight and saves the day, they get rewarded, but Murphy didn't.
I disagree that it's because she's a woman though. It's because she's trying to be batman in the Justice League- and honestly? Batman shouldn't really be up there fighting time traveling warlock aliens from dimension x, because he's just a dude.
When Susan got fucked up, she learned to use her half-vampire powers and went to fight the Rampires in South America
When Michael got Crippled, he retired, because crippled people shouldn't be fighting Frost Giants and Demons and Vampires.
When Butters decided to step into the fight, he did it with an arsenal of Magical tools, a Powerful-as-heck spirit, and later a Lightsaber powered by an Angel.
When Marcone realised shit was getting to hot for him to handle, he cut a literal deal with the devil.
All the 'normal' characters in the series are either powering-up or stepping out as the stakes go up. Murphy is just the biggest and most recent casualty- and possibly not a permanent one (though I think she'll be out for at least a while, the same as Thomas).
To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"
It's why I'm bothered with how everyone is spooked by the Librarians. Like, Eb can pull a satellite from orbit with a wave of his hand, Mab can freeze over a City just by being there, but NOOO the random mortals are the real scary ones? Laaaame
I agree with 97% of what you've said. I'd have been more okay with Murphy's death if she'd been killed by flaming blood spatter from the Jotun than by crappy trigger discipline. I'm pretty sick of the Harry mixes it up with the Chicago P.D. part of the story, Harry's leveled up, his cop adversaries should too. (And Jim is totally setting this up for a "SWAT team invades the castle" scene, calling it now)
To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"
I agree with 97% of what you've said. I'd have been more okay with Murphy's death if she'd been killed by flaming blood spatter from the Jotun than by crappy trigger discipline
To me, Murphy is an example of what happens when normal people keep getting involved in this crazy magic shit. And it's tragic but... I like it better then "Normal People are actually the most dangerous ones in the room because they have martial arts skills and cunning plans"The only difference between her and Butter's is that she's dead. This was a story choice that Jim contrived. She remained a normal human because Jim decided that was what served the story that he was writing. Her death in the story is close to perfect. It refuses the reader closure. It sets up Harry's reaction, for the reader it reinforces the loss and leaves them nothing to hold onto. Not only that, Jim telegraphs it and still surprises.
I've been consistent all along. Doylist. I'm talking about Butchers writing choices. About the difference in the treatment of his male characters and the treatment of his female characters.
Jim told you early on why you should fear the Librarians. The only Skin Walker killed in the books was nuked.
Which is my point about Jim beginning to repeat himself.
Yes, and though she was a skilled fighter and cop, in the beginning of the series she was a normal person. She did excellent work and was tough, but the character stayed with in the lines. After she got kicked off the force those lines got more and more blurred, she just wasn't believable anymore. Yes, I understand this is fiction/fantasy, but still her involvement got wilder and wilder. She became less believable as a "normal" vanilla human, normal injured humans aren't able to do what she did after she left Mac's bar up until the time of her death.
Yes, that would have been consistent with with a character fighting further and further out of her weight class.
Especially one who has obvious injuries that slowed her down considerably. If she had to be ended, her best end in my mind would have been in front of Mac's Bar trying to save some ordinary mortals who were looking for shelter.
But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll. And she isn't the only female character given this treatment.
I do wonder if Mab or an angel juiced her up at Mac's bar so she could ignore her injuries. As you said there is no way she's navigating a Harley, injured, through the streets of Chicago post EMP, with the near 300 pound gorilla that is Harry Dresden riding behind her. Not freaking happening.
Battle Ground, Ch 16:
The world went red again. This time I saw the beam tear a building apart, farther south of us, bringing it crashing down like a sandcastle before the tide, and the light lingered in the air, tinging the haze an ugly shade of scarlet.
We all just stared at that for a second. No one made a sound.
“Big bad mojo,” Bob said. His tone was . . . worried. “I haven’t ever seen anything on this scale, boss. The amount of power flying around out there is more than it can handle.”
...
Murphy rolled out onto the street and turned west. I felt weirdly like the subject of a presidential motorcade, what with the Knights and werewolves running escort. “So what can we expect?” I asked.
“Chaos,” Bob said.”
“More specific?”
“Impossible! Widespread insanity for the mortals, maybe. Maybe transmissible insanity. Hallucinations, tulpas, and outright unintentional creation of things right out of people’s imaginations. Animals and people changing form or nature. The breakdown of Newtonian physics. Hell, even the quantum-level rules might change, with consequences that are literally unimaginable. Two plus two might equal five. Twilight Zone stuff. I don’t know. No one knows. You can’t predict chaos because it’s chaos, Harry.”
...
“No one’s seen a confrontation this big for thousands of years, Harry,” Bob said, and his tone was outright worried. “The laws of magic change over time. I don’t know the answer to your question. I don’t think anyone else knows, either.”
Murphy looked back at me over her shoulder, then down at the bag, before turning her eyes back to the road. After a moment, she said, “My leg and arm don’t hurt anymore.”
Bob grunted. “Yeah. That’s Mab.”
I blinked. “What?”
“Mab. Preparing the field. What, you think she and Titania called up Tir na Nog and practiced against each other all those times for funsies? Mab’s extending psychic power to those fighting on her side. And at the same time, she’s making it more oppressive for her enemies.” Bob jiggled his chin back toward the ground we had lost. “Everything coming in from that side knows, not in its head but deep down in its guts, that it is entering the lair of a predator and that it’s never going home. Knows the odds are against it. Knows that every step forward brings it closer to death.”
“How do you know that?” Murphy asked.
“Because I’m one of the beings Her Most Royal Frozen Naughtybits considers an enemy,” Bob said brightly—but his voice had a brittle, tense undertone. “She’s doing it to me as we speak.”
Murphy glanced back, frowning. “And she’s healing her allies?”
“Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob said. “She’s just making it so you can’t feel the pain. She’ll blunt any non-useful terror you might feel, too. And she’ll encourage your aggressive tendencies. Like maybe enough so that someone who is too physically screwed up to be involved in fighting instead convinces her friends to help her and heads out into the war.”
Murphy snorted. “Yeah. There’s just no way I would have done that otherwise.”
I ran a quick mental inventory and found myself scowling. “How come she isn’t doing any of that for me, then?”
Bob gave me a disgusted look. “You’re the Winter freaking Knight. You get it all the time. Suck it up.”
The numbing of pain is one thing, but damaged muscles and tendons still behave like damaged tendons and muscles. At the beginning of Peace Talks we learn that Murphy still has more operations to go to repair the considerable damage to her knee and shoulder/elbow etc. Also if you've ever worn a cast for a number of weeks or months the limb that it was on doesn't go back to normal functioning again as soon as it is taken off, not because of pain, but because the immobile
muscles etc have regain their strength and flexibility etc, it takes more than a few hours.
This! A healthy and hale Murphy would barely be strong enough to guide that bike around with Dresden on her back. She went from nearly crippled to stronger than ever in a few hours. Something needed to knit those tendons back together and strengthen her muscles. Maybe they used her life force and that's why the fates stepped in to cut the thread?
Even before that in Peace Talks she took down a Valkyrie with a surprise fast move.. The next minute she could barely cover the distance to wherever Lara was waiting for them. In my opinion just more of the unrealistic writing as far as Murphy goes.
I figured that was just slight of hand to get the pins out of the Grenades with her undamaged hand. Less a speed thing than her being underestimated.
I think Mira is referring to the scene at the mansion, where she closes and draws on Freydis when Freydis wasn't going to let her in.
Oh yeah, that. Right. I think Freydis let her. No point in aggravating Dresden when he's supposed to be working for your bosses.
But again, unrealistic expectations.
Fair point.
So new headcanon is that someone healed her and juiced her up but it started earlier in the week.
Except as I said, after that she was back to limping and barely able to make it across the compound.
So possible short burst using her good, i.e. less injured side for the take down. So her motor bike just happens to be near the bar? Sorry, I cannot remember how that was explained and managed to work when nothing else needed a motor was. Why wasn't it offered to Harry who was forced to "borrow" a bicycle.
Battle Ground, Ch 16:
“Uh . . .” Butters said, drawing the sound out. “Now, don’t be mad, Harry.”
“What?” I asked, and I might have sounded a little grumpy.
“Me and Sanya kind of wound up by Mac’s place,” he said.
“Butters,” I said warningly.
“We took a vote,” he said.”
and a few pages later...
“I eyed the motorcycle. Then her. “How?”
“Like I don’t keep this old baby behind wards,” she said. “The Ordo Lebes did it for me years ago. And bikes are the only things that can get through the streets.”
Also a good warrior knows when he should stay out of the fight injured as she was least she become part of the problem. Considering the deep end Harry went off that almost was irreversible when she killed, it was something she failed to take into consideration when she left her assigned post. Or how would she have felt if people were hurt or killed in and around the bar in spite of the Placard protections because she wasn't there to do her job?
Why should Murphy think about the consequences of her death on Harry? Harry never did the same. If we hold Murphy accountable for not thinking about the consequences of her own death on Harry, shouldn't we hold Harry accountable for not thinking about the consequences of his own death on his daughter, Karrin or Thomas, for example?
In Changes Harry doesn't care the price he pays, it's his price according to him, but they all end up paying the consequences, all his friends. His death had consequences on all of those who went and help him save his daughter. But he couldn't stop to think about that, the most important person in the world for him was in danger.Yes, and he was constantly reminded of it later, all the more reason for Murphy to stop and think. Two wrongs don't make a right. He also didn't force anyone to go with him, he asked.
In Murphy's case in Battle Ground, the most important person in the world was Harry, it's been obvious since Cold Days, that's where (rightly or not) her mind and heart are. I think it's about being in love with him, but also because she believed that he was necessary to save Chicago, certainly more necessary than she herself was. Mac's was supposed to be protected. She wanted to do everything she could to help Harry, and if the price was her life, so be it. In the end it was.Oh I think a lot of it was about Murphy.. She thinks she knows best even when she is wrong.
Right, she wasn't thinking straight, but I don't think she had any obligation to think about what Her death would to do Harry, it was more important that he lived first. Same way Harry never did think about that sort of thing, he only thought about what he could or should do to save his daughter back in Changes when he was injured beyond repair and made the bargain that would condemn him. That's some of what they talked about in the boat in PT. We went through that line of thinking, being responsible for others in Ghost Story and Skin Game. Michael advised that no, Harry was not responsible for not foreseeing all the consequences of the decisions made in Changes, when he gets himself killed. Why should Murphy need to think about what he'll do after her death when there was a chance of him not even surviving the night?
About the sword, what do you think about that time where Dresden (the man) misused it against Lea?To begin with, at that point in time Harry had no understanding on how Holy Swords work, that they wouldn't allow themselves to be misused. So he struck before Michael could stop him and the Sword fell out of his hands. He also struck more out of fear for himself than out of judgement that Lea deserved death, that is the main difference between when he struck verses when Murphy tried to kill Nic with an added "damn you!" She judged him. Harry did pay a heavy price though they did get the Sword back. It is possible that if he hadn't lost the Sword to Lea, he wouldn't have attended the party. It is also possible without the without him being there Susan may have actually gotten away with being a party crasher... Then again, she might have been eaten outright.
About the sword, what do you think about that time where Dresden (the man) misused it against Lea?No consequences. Lea gets the sword, trades up for the Atheme, Thomas steals it back, Michael does a happy dance and the sword is back in action.
Because she is supposed to be this thinking wise person..
She is also not thinking of the other people she could put in harm's way because of her injuries nor is she thinking of the people she is charged to protect.
and if she saw Harry as a commander in the battle then she should have done her duty
No consequences. Lea gets the sword, trades up for the Atheme, Thomas steals it back, Michael does a happy dance and the sword is back in action.Do you mean just like Butter gets the sword, does happy dance and the sword is back in action and now in some ways stronger than before?
Harry like Murphy attempted to use the sword in a way for which it was never intended. In the process the sword leads to Lea's nemfection and a plot line which ends on Demonreach Island with Maeve and Lily dead. This is my favorite plot line. The sword isn't damaged and Michael gets it back and it's like it never happened.
On the other hand Murphy gets crippled and the sword broken.
Butters gets a Jedi power up for which he has no experience. By the next book he gets two werewolf lovers and can bandy words with a Titan. He can also threatens Harry and stops Harry from doing a berserker attack on Rudolf.
I'll recap. Butters fucks up, almost derails Mab's program. Gets Murphy crippled and ends up with a sword. So Butters goes from zero to superhero in one book. Murphy goes from hero to zero in the same span.
Yes Butters like many characters in the books screwed up royally. Murphy got Murphy crippled. She had Nicodemus beat, and screwed up. Butters took up the torch, and he's now fighting the good fight, but history is not on his side. Chances are good that he's going to meet a bad ending.