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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: jait on March 30, 2014, 06:35:12 PM
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So, I've got a player who's statting up a sponsored magic user... I want to confirm my understanding...
The character does NOT have any unsponsored magics. It's all from the source.
Evocation
The character decides how much power to call. Does he still take one mental stress for calling the power?
Does conviction still act as a limiter to the amount of power that can be called (before taking mental stress?) I'm assuming no, since he's not taking mental stress for calling the power from another power-source.
If these gloves are off, could a guy potentially choose to call 10-shifts of power, so long as the sponsor okays it?
I presume that Discipline is still needed to control the power, though. Right?
Thaumaturgy
Given that this is at evocation-speeds, the sponsored caster doesn't have to waste any time.
Does his Lore rank make any difference to the actual casting?
Does Conviction matter in sponsored thaumaturgy?
I"m super-tired and not focusing, so I might just be missing all sorts of stuff. I'd hate to tell this guy how to do things then recant later.
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His magic is exactly like anyone else's magic save for any bonuses/penalties that apply from his Sponsor. Period. If he calls up energy up to his Conviction, he takes on stress; and additional stress for each shift called above that, RAW. And yes, Discipline is still needed to control the power. Hope he has some Rotes. Lore affects how many Rote Spells he can have, RAW.
That said, his Sponsor's magic should give him bonuses (Like Soulfire, Hellfire, etc.) when he does connect. It might even give him Thaumaturgic magic and Evocation speed. Whether or not he also accepts Lawbreaker karma is strictly up to you and your table, as I understand it. 'Nuff said from me.
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So, I've got a player who's statting up a sponsored magic user... I want to confirm my understanding...
The character does NOT have any unsponsored magics. It's all from the source.
Sponsored magic and regular magic work pretty much the same way, the main difference is in justifying why the character has magic, as well as a few additional benefits from the sponsor.
Evocation
The character decides how much power to call. Does he still take one mental stress for calling the power?
Does conviction still act as a limiter to the amount of power that can be called (before taking mental stress?) I'm assuming no, since he's not taking mental stress for calling the power from another power-source.
If these gloves are off, could a guy potentially choose to call 10-shifts of power, so long as the sponsor okays it?
He takes casting stress like any other magic user. 1 shift for each spell +1 shift for each shift of power above his conviction. Sponsored magic does not absolve you from this.
However, the character can ask his sponsor to absorb the stress for him, in exchange for increasing the debt towards the sponsor.
I presume that Discipline is still needed to control the power, though. Right?
Yes, it is. Again, you can ask your sponsor to help you, if you fail, or if you want to get more oomph out of a spell. Usually the exchange rate is +2 per point of sponsor debt, just like invoking an aspect (because that's effectively what you do).
Thaumaturgy
Given that this is at evocation-speeds, the sponsored caster doesn't have to waste any time.
Does his Lore rank make any difference to the actual casting?
Does Conviction matter in sponsored thaumaturgy?
Thaumaturgy at evocations speed and methods basically means, that your evocations become more versatile. You can, for example, cast skill replacement spells, which evocation usually can't, in the blink of an eye, that would usually take you at least a few minutes.
You determine the power and the casting stress with your conviction, and you draw up the power in one discipline roll, just like it were a regular evocation.
Lore is still used in sponsored thaumaturgy, if you want or need to cast a spell that's too complicated to do it in one roll. In that case, it is no longer "thaumaturgy at evocations speed and methods", but regular old thaumaturgy, lore determines the base complexity and everything. Your conviction matters here as much as it does in regular thaumaturgy, as it is the number of shifts of power per exchange you can safely gather, without taking casting stress.
I"m super-tired and not focusing, so I might just be missing all sorts of stuff. I'd hate to tell this guy how to do things then recant later.
Hope this helps. Sleep is god, go worship. ;)
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Important Note (TM): There is a distinct lack of consensus regarding the actual workings of 'Thaumaturgy with Evocation's speed and methods'. Take all statements and advice regarding this subject as the poster's personal opinion only unless expressed as a direct quote from YS, preferably with page numbers to check for yourself.
For example: my personal interpretation of 'Evothaum', derived from the sidebar on page 288 of YS, places particular emphasis on certain phrases, including prominent ones such as "evocation's methods". Essentially, all I allow Evothaum to accomplish is to add a non-standard 'element' to a character's available evocation effects. That's it. Everything still has to be phrased (mechanically) as an attack, block, maneuver, or counterspell, regardless of its narrative representation ('attack' with a summoned swarm of demon-wasps? sounds nasty!). I don't allow multiple aspects to be created with a single maneuver; I don't allow durations not expressed in exchanges; I don't allow direct skill-replacement effects (note the 'direct'; invoke-for-effect is a powerful tool, but also one subject to additional case-by-case oversight); etc..
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That's a very restrictive interpretation, but yeah. It's ambiguous.
And it's not just the field of effects that's unclear. Which foci and specializations you use is too.
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I have to say that I can't get the "still just attack, block, maneuver or counterspell" interpretation from the text on Sponsored Magic "with evocation's speed and methods". It's ambiguous, but not THAT ambiguous IMO.
But it is definitely not clear...
...whether Lore limits your complexity/power...
...what focus items work with Evothaum...
etc.
EDIT: Specifically, this text
Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are broader-reaching, not constricted by the straight-line force principles of evocation. With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell.
means, as far as I can tell, that it really does give you thaumaturgic effects.
EDIT x2: I think "The spell is cast like evocation: power first, control later" and "In these cases, use what would
have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation" means you use Conviction and Lore is not involved. But that is, IMO, less certain than the above.
No real guidance on focus items....
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Everything still has to be phrased (mechanically) as an attack, block, maneuver, or counterspell, regardless of its narrative representation ('attack' with a summoned swarm of demon-wasps? sounds nasty!). I don't allow multiple aspects to be created with a single maneuver; I don't allow durations not expressed in exchanges; I don't allow direct skill-replacement effects (note the 'direct'; invoke-for-effect is a powerful tool, but also one subject to additional case-by-case oversight); etc..
It's not THAT ambiguous (IMO). From the RAW "In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation." (Emphasis mine.)
I'll grant you there is a little wiggle room on if you use thaumaturgy or evocation's skills and focus items/specialties are not mentioned at all. As far as focus items/specialties go I'd have to say its probably not relevant since it doesn't come with specializations or focus items and it doesn't mention the Refinement power (or vice versa). But since "here's what it means" sounds an awful like "if and only if mentioned here", if you allow the Refinement power to work for Sponsored Magic and focus items aren't mentioned its either "they don't work on Evothaum" or "use the thaumaturgy ones".
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The discussion has been had before. I don't really feel like getting into it in detail, here, and derailing yet another thread. I just thought that it was worth pointing out that there are different interpretations of that sidebar, and that definitive unqualified statements as to its meaning are probably not justified (unless they come from the dev who actually wrote it or somesuch).
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Here's another controversial question: Does evothaum gives a second set of rote spells or rotes at all?
(My opinion is yes, because they are tied in a different power. The first set is about evocation and the second about thaumaturgy.)
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In my interpretation:
Sponsored Magic provides a set of rotes (which can be applied to Evothaum if that is also provided) unless the character also has Evocation (in which case that provides the Rotes, and the Sponsored Magic is just adding its available evocation effects to those available through Evocation).
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That's my take as well. You get 1 set of rotes based on your lore. If you have a Sponsored Magic, you have more flexibility on what those rotes can be, as far as theme and effect are concerned.
You don't get Thaum rotes, in any case. So having a sponsor lets you do Thaum-type spells as evocation rotes.
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That's my take as well. You get 1 set of rotes based on your lore. If you have a Sponsored Magic, you have more flexibility on what those rotes can be, as far as theme and effect are concerned.
You don't get Thaum rotes, in any case. So having a sponsor lets you do Thaum-type spells as evocation rotes.
I agree. Having evothaum doesn't give you twice as many rotes.
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I think evothaum should use thaumaturgy specializations, thematically, but that doesn't really work mechanically, because even in Thaum you still use Conviction to draw power. But since there's no such thing as a Thaumaturgy Power specialization, it seems like that if you use thaum focus items and specializations, then you might have Biomancy Complexity +5 and Control +5... but you can still only draw power equal to your Conviction for 1 stress, so actually casting that Complexity +5 spell would cost you 6 stress!
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I think evothaum should use thaumaturgy specializations, thematically, but that doesn't really work mechanically, because even in Thaum you still use Conviction to draw power. But since there's no such thing as a Thaumaturgy Power specialization, it seems like that if you use thaum focus items and specializations, then you might have Biomancy Complexity +5 and Control +5... but you can still only draw power equal to your Conviction for 1 stress, so actually casting that Complexity +5 spell would cost you 6 stress!
My opinion is that thaum has its characteristics "translated" to evocation. Discipline stays the same, Lore takes the spot of conviction, complexity specialisation takes the role of power specialisation.
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I use Evothaum the same way you use Evocation: conviction for power, roll discipline to control the shifts. It uses the same foci as whatever element you're using it with, usually with a GM call on whether or not the effect is offensive or defensive.
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The way I do it is the sponsor becomes another element for the caster to use in evocation. So a full wizard with Soul-Fire might have: water, earth, air, soul-fire.
When you do your foci, you specify whether it is an evocation foci or thaum.
So thaum foci are not changed: Complexity/Power. Soul-fire is a new Theme that can be used for foci.
Since Evothaum is speed and methods of evocation, I use Power and Control for foci, except "Soul-fire" is the specific element instead of Air or Earth or water.
So, I might have a +2 Soul-fire, defensive Control Foci.
I use it when casting evothaum Wards(blocks), for instance. Or I can use it to cast a normal evocation block. The difference between an evothaum ward and a regular block are fairly significant.
The soul-fire evothaum ward can only be cast on corridors/doors/thresholds and are immobile and lasts longer
The regular soul-fire evocation is 1 exchange and mobile.
Both use the same "evocation element".
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I think I get what you're saying, but I think your specific example of evothaum with soulfire is wrongly presented. Remember, soulfire gives evothaum to EVERY aspect of thaumaturgy. If we want to go with your method of adding evocation elements, we must add about a million: divination, conjuration, biomancy, ectomancy, disruption, worldwalking, necromancy, astrology... Anything at all! If you just add only one element, it would make taking specialisations useless.
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I don't think that's relevant. Soul-fire is a theme, just like any sponsored magic. If I add Summer as my sponsor, I wouldn't add, Biomancy, SUmmer fire etc, etc, etc.. You just say 'Summer'. It's an element. It does summer-y stuff, like healing and growth.
So yes, you take Soul-fire as an element. Why does it make taking specializations useless? Why does it matter how many schools of thaumaturgy it covers? For thaumaturgy, it definitely makes taking a Divination specialization less worth it...as long as you don't mind your spells being at the whim of your sponsor. Remember, it has to fit your sponsor's agenda. Good luck spying on that pretty girl when you should be out killing necromancers.
But that has nothing to do with evo-thaum. Soul-fire could already do all those schools of magic, so it makes sense that it should extend to evo-thaum.
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Evothaum, in my interpretation, uses Evocation stuff. To give you an example of how I would apply it:
Alice Grace has Kindly Magic, and is currently battling a demon who just realized he bit off more than he can chew. He tries to run, but Kindly Magic gives Alice Divination Evothaum when hunting a target down. So Nar, Alice's player, says to his GM: Alice wants to cast a spell that will allow her target this guy and make him into barbecue. The spell will work by giving her a constant channel of air that she can follow, giving her a direction. vultur, in his everlasting wisdom, nods and allows the spell. Alice has Air specializations that take her up to 11 shift of power/control with Air in evocation, so when she casts the spell, it functions as a tracking spell of 11 shifts. Alice rolls the control easily, and grins as she follows the demon to a private area so she can roast the motherfucker.
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I don't think that's relevant. Soul-fire is a theme, just like any sponsored magic. If I add Summer as my sponsor, I wouldn't add, Biomancy, SUmmer fire etc, etc, etc.. You just say 'Summer'. It's an element. It does summer-y stuff, like healing and growth.
True. BUT. I disagree in the case of soulfire, because it doesn't give a specific theme of thaumaturgy, but the POWER thaumaturgy (I mean other sponsors give just the power [-2]Ritual with an appropriate theme, but soulfire gives the power [-3]Thaumaturgy).
So yes, you take Soul-fire as an element. Why does it make taking specializations useless? Why does it matter how many schools of thaumaturgy it covers?
Shamelessly copying narphoenix, I submitt my own example
Dr. Dante Gheil has soulfire, and has discovered a rare infection in the blood of his werewolf patient, the product of archaiozoic bacteriae from the NeverNever. These bacteriae produce a neurotoxin that assaults the synapses responsible for controlling his shapeshifting powers and, by extend, his bloodlust. The Great and Benevolent vultur decrees that to purge the toxin and the bacteriae from his system, Dante needs a 12-shift ritual. With his specialisation in Biomancy at +6, he reaches the required complexity just enough. If he were to use a soulfire themed ritual, though, his base complexity would be +6, not having any specialisation, and he would need 3 successfull declarations (or inflict 3 mild consequences on his patient).
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True. BUT. I disagree in the case of soulfire, because it doesn't give a specific theme of thaumaturgy, but the POWER thaumaturgy (I mean other sponsors give just the power [-2]Ritual with an appropriate theme, but soulfire gives the power [-3]Thaumaturgy).
No it doesn't. It gives you all the benefits of Thaumaturgy as long as it fits the Theme and Agenda of the Sponsor.
So when your Fairy Friend (let's say another PC) asks you to help them hunt down an enemy they want to avenge, maybe because you owe them a favour, You might not have access to your Soul-Fire because Soul-fire isn't really about vengeance and it doesn't care about hunting down Fae in the Nevernever.
You'd be much better off with Thaumaturgy.
Dr. Dante Gheil has soulfire, and has discovered a rare infection in the blood of his werewolf patient, the product of archaiozoic bacteriae from the NeverNever. These bacteriae produce a neurotoxin that assaults the synapses responsible for controlling his shapeshifting powers and, by extend, his bloodlust. The Great and Benevolent vultur decrees that to purge the toxin and the bacteriae from his system, Dante needs a 12-shift ritual. With his specialisation in Biomancy at +6, he reaches the required complexity just enough. If he were to use a soulfire themed ritual, though, his base complexity would be +6, not having any specialisation, and he would need 3 successfull declarations (or inflict 3 mild consequences on his patient).
Correct. Because you put all your Foci in to Biomancy and not Soulfire. In this situation, if you'd put all your foci in to Soul-fire, I'd allow the exact same spell because Curing people of Lycanthropy seems like something that suits the Agenda.
If you were wanted to TURN people into Lycanthropes, your foci are better spent on Biomancy because Soulfire wouldn't let you turn people into were-wolves..
You see. While Soul-fire does every type of Thaumaturgy, it doesn't do every type of spell. Why? Because it has an agenda.
Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288), with a potentially gentler agenda
(though this may come with a tighter credit limit
on the matter of debt).
and
thaumaturgic application…well,
we don’t know really, so for our current purposes
consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy
spells (those which are agenda-compatible,
at any rate).
Notice what I bolded. It DOESN'T give Thaumaturgy. They specifically say they don't know and that you should assume the full range as long as they are "agenda compatible".
This is VERY important. It's not a free, flexible Thaumaturgy with extra benefits and a GM should make sure they recognize this.
EDIT: you pay extra because of the extra flexibility of Soul-fire and because it down-grades ALL toughness, regardless of Catch. It doesn't cost more because they assume it gives you Thaumaturgy.
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Of course it is important. But I am comparing cases in which both methods can be used (and let's face it, when you play a character with sponsored magic, the majority of your spells would be compatible to your sponsor, otherwise you REALLY need a new character)
If you were wanted to TURN people into Lycanthropes, your foci are better spent on Biomancy because Soulfire wouldn't let you turn people into were-wolves..
But what if turning him into a werewolf would save his life? It's all about context.
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Of course it is important. But I am comparing cases in which both methods can be used (and let's face it, when you play a character with sponsored magic, the majority of your spells would be compatible to your sponsor, otherwise you REALLY need a new character)
Not necessarily. And the other players don't have Sponsored magic, and sometimes their goals might not be compatible with your sponsors agenda. It doesn't mean you can't help them...it just means it'll be hard for you to use your Sponsors magic.
EDIT: Actually, having an evil character with Soul-fire would be an awesome character. They'd rack up sponsored debt like crazy. A great way for the Sponsor to "convert" someone...or make someone evil do things they might not normally do. There'd be way more chances for compels as well...the FP's would roll in.
But what if turning him into a werewolf would save his life? It's all about context.
Taking away someone's free will so that he'll go and kill other people? I might rule that as against Soul-fire. Others may not. But, obviously, context matter.
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Soulfire makes no mention of providing any Evothaum whatsoever, let alone all Thaum compatible with the agenda as Evothaum.
All other Sponsored Magics explicitly call out what effects, if any, they provide as Evothaum, and in almost every case the Evothaum is narrower than the Thaum (Hellfire is a special case, but that requires sponsor debt; Kemmlerian Necromancy is also a special case, but then, it would be entirely pointless for that power to offer any Thaum, since it already requires you to have access to all of it; even in these special cases, though, the presence of Evothaum is explicitly called out).
It is illogical, then, to assume that Soulfire provides something that in all other cases is explicitly stated as being available when no mention of it is made in the description of Soulfire.
Houserule as you will.
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Soulfire makes no mention of providing any Evothaum whatsoever, let alone all Thaum compatible with the agenda as Evothaum.
All other Sponsored Magics explicitly call out what effects, if any, they provide as Evothaum, and in almost every case the Evothaum is narrower than the Thaum (Hellfire is a special case, but that requires sponsor debt; Kemmlerian Necromancy is also a special case, but then, it would be entirely pointless for that power to offer any Thaum, since it already requires you to have access to all of it; even in these special cases, though, the presence of Evothaum is explicitly called out).
It is illogical, then, to assume that Soulfire provides something that in all other cases is explicitly stated as being available when no mention of it is made in the description of Soulfire.
Houserule as you will.
Huh. When you read this:
Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288),
It's easy to assume Evo-Thaum. But when you read page 288, there is no mention of evo-thaum. I always assumed evo-thaum was part n' parcel with all Sponsored magic...but, perhaps, this isn't true!
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It's definitely a possible benefit. And probably even a common benefit, but it seems not to be a default benefit.
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It's definitely a possible benefit. And probably even a common benefit, but it seems not to be a default benefit.
Yeah, I was just about to point to the same quote as before,
The full scope of what soulfire can do is not
clear to us at this time.
So depending on Agenda and GM, evothaum could be a benefit.
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True, but so far as the rules are concerned, that's no less true for Evocation.
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Personally, I'd have Evothaum be able to do everything that full-blown Ritual (since that's what it is, not full Thaumaturgy) can do within that 'speed and methods of Evocation'... but Evocation has a firm limit on the amount of power you can call up. You can do some quick Biomancy with Summer Magic, but it'll never be as good as Thaumaturgy with a Biomancy theme.
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Honestly I think Sponsored Magic is just a really bad way to model SoulFire based on the way the books portray it.
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Honestly I think Sponsored Magic is just a really bad way to model SoulFire based on the way the books portray it.
Well, when Harry uses it as "mystical rebar" that's sponsored magic.
There's more to it, though ... as we see in CD. But that is really more plot devicey.
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Well, when Harry uses it as "mystical rebar" that's sponsored magic.
That's kind of my point. Sponsored Magic as 'boost' is kind of the edge case, but that's ALL Soulfire seems to do (according to the novels). And while the ability may or may not actually be granted by the Almighty (as opposed to having been simply unlocked) it feeds on the 'soul' for power rather than some sponsor with an agenda. That's why I think its a really bad model for it. Anyway, not gonna get in a debate about, just voice my opinion.
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That's kind of my point. Sponsored Magic as 'boost' is kind of the edge case, but that's ALL Soulfire seems to do (according to the novels). And while the ability may or may not actually be granted by the Almighty (as opposed to having been simply unlocked) it feeds on the 'soul' for power rather than some sponsor with an agenda. That's why I think its a really bad model for it. Anyway, not gonna get in a debate about, just voice my opinion.
It's definitely an oddity, yes.