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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 23, 2019, 05:49:25 AM
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So far there have been four characters who we know to have been Nemfected. They are the late Summer and Winter Ladies Aurora and Maeve, the Leanansidhe and Cat Sith. I once read speculation that the Red King wasn't just going senile, he may have been nemfected himself, but until there is a WOJ or something said in the books that confirms this, I can't include the Red King on this list. Plus, the Red Court is dead while Summer and Winter are very much alive, even if the two Ladies I mentioned are not. So I don't care very much whether Big Red was or wasn't nemfected.
We don't know where Cat Sith is and it appears that Lea was cured by Mab or is at least in remission. I think Lea said something in Ghost Story about not talking or dwelling on touchy subjects too long, because it could make her vulnerable. I'm actually going to post something much longer on this topic, so I don't want to get into the weeds of how Nemesis works it's magic on its victims. What I want is to ask everyone a question.
Who do you think is likely to be a target for Nemesis to infect with its poison in future? If you think it will one of the fae, because they are only type of beings in the Dresden verse who can be nemfected, that's fine. I think you're wrong, but even if anyone can be nemfected, the next victim might still be one of the fae. (I just had an odd thought. Let's say that normally, only the fae are vulnerable. Could Fix and Harry be vulnerable, even though they're mortals, because they carry the mantles of Summer and Winter, respectively? It's just a thought.) Feel free to name any character you wish.
I thought about doing this as a poll, but I'd have to list just about every character in the books who is still alive. So feel free to name any character you wish. Also, what makes that character a good candidate? I don't have an answer myself. I'm just curious to see what everyone else thinks and I think it would be interesting if several people name the same character, because I'd like to know why they see this character becoming nemfected when I don't.
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I personally believe Nemesis can affect just about anyone (excluding Archangels - WOJ on this) but not everyone. If the goal of Nemesis was to infect as many beings as possible, it would probably work a lot faster like a pandemic. But I tend to think it chooses its victims with care, it only goes after specifically vulnerable people. Also, I think it is "new". New is a relative term of course, but essentially most people who know of it seem to treat it like a new player in the game. Also, it doesn't affect everyone who knows of it. It only seems to infect certain types of people - and discards them if they become no longer useful. It certainly tries to be less overt and stay undiscovered. But the type of person it goes after, the profile of its victims, seems relatively uniform. That is: power-hungry, angry, resentful, ambitious, perhaps already somewhat mad, someone who wants things to change.
Cat Sith is the only one who is hard to profile, as it is unclear when he became infected and whether we ever met the "real" Cat Sith. But Lea, Aurora, Maeve, Victor Sells and the others all seem to fit the mold.
So with that in mind and to answer your question, I think the next person to be infected will be LARA RAITH. Assuming she isn't already. And I suspect we might even get a hint of it come Peace Talks. Why? She fits the mold (ambitious, wants to change things up, perhaps a tad mad, and very power-hungry). She also makes a dangerous villain and a difficult problem that can not be just blasted out of existence. Harry will ahve to outmanouvre her, which will be difficult.
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I don't think Victor Sells was infected, in my opinion he was what is called a "useful idiot.." You forgot that Mab, herself, was infected but she caught it in time.
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When was Mab infected?
I think all the events listed by Lily of people acting against their natures is a good place to start, but she was be fed information by Maeve, and those events could have been (and some definitely were) orchestrated by players off screen. It could be the players off screen who were nemfected and not the actors on stage, to slightly mix my metaphors.
I lean towards the idea that mortals can't be nemfected. I think mortal corruption by the forces of Outside is what the black magic taint is. I'm quite willing to admit that these opinions aren't even close to proven.
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I'd like to sign up, if the Outsiders are taking applications right now. It'd be nice to abdicate responsibility for my actions, you know.
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When was Mab infected?
I think all the events listed by Lily of people acting against their natures is a good place to start, but she was be fed information by Maeve, and those events could have been (and some definitely were) orchestrated by players off screen. It could be the players off screen who were nemfected and not the actors on stage, to slightly mix my metaphors.
I lean towards the idea that mortals can't be nemfected. I think mortal corruption by the forces of Outside is what the black magic taint is. I'm quite willing to admit that these opinions aren't even close to proven.
Remember in Proven Guilty at Arctus Tor when Harry was talking to Lea? Lea was on ice, but Mab was beside her also on ice.. Now either she was hiding or when she realized what was happening with Lea and her own contact with the Knife she decided an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.. Or since she did have contact, she wore the Knife for a time, Mab decided best to treat before she started to show symptoms, upon which it might be too late because in her madness she'd think she didn't need to be treated..
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I’m not a big believer in the Mab is Nfected but fighting it theory, although I am a little puzzled as to why Mab was in the Winter garden during PG. if I were playing devils advocate, perhaps this is why the BC assault on Arctis Tor mysteriously stops in the courtyard before the spire in PG - they were able to Nfect Mab, so they didn’t need to press their attack further. However they don’t know that Mab has a way to defeat Nfection (becoming a Sidhecicle in the Wellspring).
@Mira
I would point out that while Harry refers to Lea as a Sidhecicle, Mab is referred to as an ice statue - so perhaps they weren’t undergoing the same thing. It is also possible that the fight with the BC assault team took a lot out of Mab & she needs to heal - perhaps this is the way the high Winter Sidhe heal?
As a side note, I believe an individual Nemesis vector can jump from host to host but not split itself into 2, thereby Nfecting 2 people. So if Lea were Nfected by the athame, the athame no longer carried an Outsider (unless it had 2 Outsiders hidden inside I suppose).
@Bad Alias
While I agree with you about Nfection being ineffective with mortals, I disagree with the black magic taint being caused by the Outside bit. I believe rather that the taint is what allows practitioners to reach Outside if they so choose.
Here is a side question, do you believe that necromancy is powered/ created by the Outside, or it is a natural force within the DV?
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As a side note, I believe an individual Nemesis vector can jump from host to host but not split itself into 2, thereby Nfecting 2 people. So if Lea were Nfected by the athame, the athame no longer carried an Outsider (unless it had 2 Outsiders hidden inside I suppose).
That depends, if it is one organism yes, but if it is many tiny ones like a virus or bacteria, then it could infect many at once.... Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference between an "icesycle" and an ice statue in this case, both Lea and Mab were encased in ice.. And when you think about it, if the infection organism can think why was Mab immune when she wore the Knife for a time? That makes no sense, plus Maeve was also fatally infected by the Knife after it was passed on to her by Lea I believe... Not clear on the last if it was Mab who gave it to her after she got it from Lea, or Lea who gave it to Maeve who in turn handed it over to Mab.. Who at some point realized the danger it presented, in time to help Lea but too late to help Maeve.
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Lea's words to Harry in Changes provide a clue as to the nature of Nemfections.
“A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”
I think that a Nemfection is precisely that. An infection rather than an entity. A conduit to something else. Like putting a transmitter in your mind. And that once you have it, it's always there.
There is no way of knowing for certain why Mab was hiding in the garden. However you may be able to draw an inference from how Jim revealed her presence to the reader.
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I personally believe Nemesis can affect just about anyone (excluding Archangels - WOJ on this) but not everyone. If the goal of Nemesis was to infect as many beings as possible, it would probably work a lot faster like a pandemic. But I tend to think it chooses its victims with care, it only goes after specifically vulnerable people. Also, I think it is "new". New is a relative term of course, but essentially most people who know of it seem to treat it like a new player in the game. Also, it doesn't affect everyone who knows of it. It only seems to infect certain types of people - and discards them if they become no longer useful. It certainly tries to be less overt and stay undiscovered. But the type of person it goes after, the profile of its victims, seems relatively uniform. That is: power-hungry, angry, resentful, ambitious, perhaps already somewhat mad, someone who wants things to change.
I think there must be limitations to how Nemesis infects people or a strict limit on the number of victims it can put under the influence, because you are right. Without such limits the situation would look something like a pandemic or "Invasion of the Body Snatchers." The main difference would be that Nemesis wouldn't have to take over everyone. It would only need to reach a single wizard of the White Council, a single member of the White Court, a single member of Winter or Summer, and sooner or later nemfection would spread to the leaders of each organization. We know that didn't happen with Lea, because if Mab was telling Harry the whole truth at the end of Cold Days, Maeve was only one the illness was passed on to, and it's also possible that Aurora was the only member of the Summer Court to get the Nemesis flu.
Cat Sith is the only one who is hard to profile, as it is unclear when he became infected and whether we ever met the "real" Cat Sith. But Lea, Aurora, Maeve, Victor Sells and the others all seem to fit the mold.
Cat Sith is the odd man out (literally) in what has happened so far. If Harry was correct, Cat Sith was grabbed by Sharkface, A.K.A. HWWB4, when the Malk progenitor was helping Harry out at the nature preserve (whatever it was called). It's difficult to see how Nemesis could use Sith now. I assume Mab would have figured it out what happened to Harry's batman, even if Harry failed to report it. It will be interesting if we see Grimalkin again and find out that he's been promoted.
So with that in mind and to answer your question, I think the next person to be infected will be LARA RAITH. Assuming she isn't already. And I suspect we might even get a hint of it come Peace Talks. Why? She fits the mold (ambitious, wants to change things up, perhaps a tad mad, and very power-hungry). She also makes a dangerous villain and a difficult problem that can not be just blasted out of existence. Harry will ahve to outmanouvre her, which will be difficult.
Lara would definitely be a target unless some limitation on Nemesis prevents that from happening. It might be necessary to make Lara an ally instead of taking her over. It appears Lord Raith made a deal with Nemesis or HWWB (same thing really) for magical protection, probably in exchange for future help. Lara might be offered the same deal or something similar.
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Here is a side question, do you believe that necromancy is powered/ created by the Outside, or it is a natural force within the DV?
I think there are two types of black magic. There is the "unlawful" use of magic, like burning someone to death. Then there is the type of "oily" black magic Harry first runs into in, I think, Grave Peril. Necromancy would be a subset of the second type. I think the second type is, if nor directly from, associated with the Outside.
@Mira: I'm not sure if Lea infected Maeve with the knife, or the knife infected Lea and Lea infected Maeve.
and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right.
Chapter 53, Cold Days
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Lara has always been one of those background villains, the devil you know. But definitely more worrying than even Marcone - she has better networks and has been in the game longer. Which isn't to say people should underestimate Marcone, but I think strategically she is expanding faster than he is. I think she is aware that things are about to shake up and is preparing accordingly. But I also think she is the epitome of her race, patient and dangerous but not apathetic. The appearance of being a good option, an easy ally. The White Court kill you with comfort. I always remember that line from Madeline Raith "We have pens for the kine. We call them cities". I think I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. Chilling words - using our own structures against us.
Yeah Nemesis is tricky, and either there are hard limits on how many and who it can infect or it imposes limits on itself and chooses selectively. Curiously, I always thought Titania was a good candidate for infection. She told Harry its name (which doesn't rule her - Maeve told Lily so we know that is one tactic it employs) but after that chat Harry sees the Mothers, and I feel if they were worried about that they would have implied that was the case. WOJ is that Titania will only really start having a bigger role during the BAT, which suggests she is going to make some big moves.
Just to be clear - canon is currently that Victor Sells was infected. I know that Maeve could have fed Lily misinformation, but until we get actual contradictory evidence, all we are actually doing is speculating. I am not entirely sure why we all believe that it is so unlikely that Nemesis can infect mortals/humans. Remember Leonid Kravos and the FBI agents were also in that list - which makes sense. The Gatekeeper virtually confirms this when he tells Harry that whether he meant to or not, his cases have resulted in placing thumbs in the Adversary's eye (or something to that effect).
Lily also refers to it as "a disease, a parasite, a poison...a contagion" "a spiritual malady. A mental plague. An infection spreading slowly across the earth". So she is saying it is a sentient virus of sorts. All virus' are living things so to distinguish between an infection and an entity when discussing a malevolent spiritual entity is sort of redundant. Remember Titania and the Mothers remind Harry not to say Nemesis but rather say the Adversary "lest it hear you" so it at least is somewhat sentient. It also takes full control of Cat Sith for a moment so the evidence tends to support the fact it is a sentient creature.
Lily says it "changes which ought not to change. It destroys a father's love for his family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It distorts and corrupts the good intentions of agents of mortal law into violence and death. It erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly talented sorcerer from reaching out for more power, no matter the cost". All of which is true. Now we might all speculate that there is other reasons that they were corrupted. But Occam's Razor - simplest explanation is the right one.
I had not heard the theory Mab was infected...but it seems rather unlikely. And Mira, not a fact either - it certainly isn't yet canon just speculation at this point. Mab has always acted like Mab - the seeds of doubt were there true enough. But mostly Maeve was the one pointing the finger (so we know that is pretty questionable). Could Mab even stop it if she were infected? Despite all of Leah's power, she was no match. Attacks from within are the hardest to defend against. Most people Harry talked to, including the Gatekeeper and the Mothers seemed to believe being Mab was no obstacle to being infected. I always infered that Mab was hiding in that garden due to secondary events that were happening - namely she wanted to see the rescue of Molly. Which was one of her plans all along - else none of them would have ever left. Mab never just has one plan and she was setting up Molly to be a potential Winter Lady one way or another.
Winter seems to have a fundamental property that is related to pain and logic that seems to be a counter to the corrupting nature of the Outside. Almost like it was specifically built for it. I suspect that is partly why it is Winter, not Summer, that guards the Outer Gates. That cold and terrible power seems to be somewhere between an immune system, antibody and cure (within limits) to the Outsider corruption. Not necessarily Nemesis specifically, but it worked well enough. Both Winter's nature and structure is that of a defense for reality.
Kbrizzle: I am not sure I agree with the idea that the Athame carried a presence at all. I think there was a WOJ that discussed how Nemesis infects its victims and whilst Jim was tight-lipped about it, there was the indication that it was something to do with the possibility of infection. Which was implied to be an imbalance of power. So I don't think there was a sentience in the knife, rather that the power of the knife itself was tainted and allowed for an opening into the Leanansidhe. So it doesn't really need to split, rather it extends itself. Whether the Athame is still tainted or not is hard to say...although you will notice that Mab was wearing it after she imprisoned Lea so I would say not.
Bad Alias: I think you are pretty much right about magic. There is the kind of dark magic which is based in the same origins as good magic (to be so simplistic) - origins are from Inside, from Life. Then there is a kind of black magic, including Necromancy, that's source is Outsider based or at least Outside based. There definitely is a qualitative difference in the black magic that say, Corpsetaker uses, and the black magic Leonid Kravos or Victor Sells uses. Which isn't to say that one cannot use both types of black magic, and that there is no connection at all, but there is definitely a descriptive difference (that even Dresden notices). Curiously, Cowl's "normal" magic seems to be of the first kind of black magic (the source is Life). It seems he plays with both kinds.
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@Yuillegan
The reason I think that Nemesis cannot affect mortals is exactly because of what Lily says - it changes things that ought not to change. Immortals are incapable of free will, & hence they cannot choose to change themselves even if they so desired.
Mortals however can choose to change, & do so often - what is the added benefit provided by Nemesis here apart from directing the nature of the choice to change? There are several ways Nemesis could influence a mortal’s choice without Nfecting them.
I also find Sells’ story to be more powerful without Nemesis being part of it. The story of a man driven to insanity by his unquenchable thirst for power shows the real pitfalls & dangers of black magic - this is why the WC forbids certain acts, because unchecked these acts lead to people becoming like Sells, Kravos & the beheaded Korean kid.
I take the Gatekeeper’s words about Harry being an obstacle to a lot of Outsider plans for most of the series as almost every bad guy Harry faces in the casefiles is either on the Black Council or being manipulated by them as a cats paw, not necessarily that they are all Nfected.
@Yuillegan & Bad Alias
I like the idea that there are 2 separate things kinds of black magic - the taint on someone’s soul from regular use/ one big use of black magic, & actually using the un-life spectrum of energy (since Harry says that his type of magic uses the life spectrum) to wield black magic.
I think one leads to the other - one cannot wield the un-life spectrum of energy without having a black magic taint on their soul. This is why Harry is adept at necromancy in DB - he has a huge taint on his soul from HWWB (and the fact that he has killed before).
However I do believe that in order to be able to wield magic from the un-life spectrum, one must seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.
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It was Felicia Raith who made the comment about the pens. Madeline was already dead. I agree with kbrizzle's interpretation of what Lily said, but it's all very speculative at this point.
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I had not heard the theory Mab was infected...but it seems rather unlikely. And Mira, not a fact either - it certainly isn't yet canon just speculation at this point. Mab has always acted like Mab -
As I said, it isn't clear, only that she had put herself on ice along with Lea.. Harry never asked Mab, and Lea was too out of it to say one way or the other... However it is a fact that Mab for a time wore the Knife, the next time Harry sees her after the Party she is wearing it on her belt. This means she is exposed to the "infection or infestation" so just as you or I would take steps if we were exposed to germs or contamination to prevent getting sick, I think this is what Mab did. So while it isn't confirmed one way or the other, it seems like a logical answer to me.
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This means she is exposed to the "infection or infestation."
We don't know that. Many don't even suspect that, but I see why you do, and you aren't being unreasonable. For all we know, it may be a simple matter to cleanse an object of infection. As Yuillegan says, "Whether the Athame is still tainted or not is hard to say."
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We don't know that. Many don't even suspect that, but I see why you do, and you aren't being unreasonable. For all we know, it may be a simple matter to cleanse an object of infection. As Yuillegan says, "Whether the Athame is still tainted or not is hard to say."
It is hard to say, except we do know that two of the three known handlers of the Knife were affected.
I also think it is safe to say since she did wear it on her belt Mab either didn't know the danger or is immune to it's effects.. I doubt that she was able to rid it of the infection or is immune because since it is an object of power you'd think she'd still be wearing it..
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It is hard to say, except we do know that two of the three known handlers of the Knife were affected.
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Here are the three who came into physical contact with the Knife after the party, Lea, Mab, and Maeve... Of those three, Lea and Maeve definitely got infected, other than she put herself on ice as well, not confirmed that Mab was infected.. It is possible that Cat Sith perhaps came in contact, but that would be total speculation, however confirmed that he was infected.
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When did Maeve handle it?
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When did Maeve handle it?
Mab confirms that the infection came from the knife in Cold Days. Though granted unclear if Maeve caught the infection from directly from Lea or from handling the Knife... Page 503
"It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone--but her eyes were far away. "The one given her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That is how the Leananside was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
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Well here’s a question - are Maeve & Lea Nfected at the same time? We know from DB that Lea has been a Sidhecicle since before the events of the book. And I’m sure Maeve has been Nfected for a little while before the events of PG.
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Well here’s a question - are Maeve & Lea Nfected at the same time? We know from DB that Lea has been a Sidhecicle since before the events of the book. And I’m sure Maeve has been Nfected for a little while before the events of PG.
But we don't know it is possible that Mab knew that Maeve was infected as of Small Favor and that is why she was so angry, that is also hinted at in Cold Days..
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Lea gets the Athame in Grave Peril. There may be a foretelling of sorts in Summer Knight. She warns Harry about the Stone Table, and she is furtive as if she doesn't want Mab to hear. There is a callback to this moment in Cold Days where she reminds Harry in Mab's presence. It is almost certain that Lea and Maeve were on the field in Summer Knight and this would have given Lea a shot at Maeve. By Dead Beat we know that Lea is detained because of a dispute with Mab. However Mab still isn't aware the Maeve is compromised. When we next see Mab in Small Favor she has ceased speaking directly. She will only speak directly after she has made Harry her Knight. She know knows that Maeve is infected, Harry relays what he believes to Mab in Cold Days.
"A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears. That was why. Because you figured out the the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife." Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone-but her eyes were far away.
"The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That was how the Leanansidhe was tainted-and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
I find this particular passage to be one of the most powerful of the series. The sense of melancholy as Mab faces the loss of her children, Maeve dead and Sarissa lost to Summer. Almost certainly knowing that the worst is still to come.
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Lea gets the Athame in Grave Peril. There may be a foretelling of sorts in Summer Knight. She warns Harry about the Stone Table, and she is furtive as if she doesn't want Mab to hear. There is a callback to this moment in Cold Days where she reminds Harry in Mab's presence. It is almost certain that Lea and Maeve were on the field in Summer Knight and this would have given Lea a shot at Maeve. By Dead Beat we know that Lea is detained because of a dispute with Mab. However Mab still isn't aware the Maeve is compromised. When we next see Mab in Small Favor she has ceased speaking directly. She will only speak directly after she has made Harry her Knight. She know knows that Maeve is infected, Harry relays what he believes to Mab in Cold Days.I find this particular passage to be one of the most powerful of the series. The sense of melancholy as Mab faces the loss of her children, Maeve dead and Sarissa lost to Summer. Almost certainly knowing that the worst is still to come.
Yes, she showed vulnerability to Harry, deep down Mab is a very human mother, and for all her Fae
cleverness she was unable to save her children. which she loved.. As Kringle warns Harry not to challenge her on that point..
"but never challenge her pride, wizard. I don't know exactly what passed between you, but I suspect that if it had been witnessed by another, she would break you to pieces. Terrible pride in that creature. She'll never bend it."
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When did Maeve handle it?
"A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears. That was why. Because you figured out the the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the knife." Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone-but her eyes were far away.
"The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That was how the Leanansidhe was tainted-and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
There is no reason to think Maeve physically handled the knife. It seems more likely to me that Lea found a way to directly infect Maeve.
There is another related idea that I think needs to be challenged. Because Mab wore the Athame on her belt, it is easy to conclude that Mab has been exposed to Nemesis. I think that is incorrect and I will say why further below. First, I suppose an alternative to this thought is that Mab found some way to shield herself from the infection, but that seems unlikely to me because it's too simple and too easy. If Mab could protect herself than Nemesis is no longer so scary a weapon.
A more subtle alternative is that the Athame's nemesis infection was a one shot item. Mab could wear the Athame because it had lost its power to do harm to the one who uses it. I think that is also an unlikely explanation; however, if you reread the previous sentence I just wrote, the clue to how I think the Athame works is found at the end of that sentence. I'll just wait while you reread that.....
I think Lea didn't become nemfected until she used the Athame to summon everyone in Winter who owed her a favor to capture Harry, near the end of Grave Peril. If simply touching the item passed the infection, it would have been all too easy for Bianca to infect herself, assuming she was just a patsy and not the mastermind of the operation. I can't describe it in exact terms, but something about using the Athame's magic passes the poison to its user. So it makes sense for Mab to permanently keep hold of the item. It can't harm her as long as she doesn't use it and it can't harm anyone else either.
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I have no idea about the precise mechanism. I come at it backwards. Of all the creatures in faerie, Mab, more so than anyone else, understands the hazard of infection. The Gatekeeper exists to forestall this very possibility. Since I presume that Mab is no fool I dismiss the possibility that the adversary could infect her.
In addition, just for a basis for my thinking, I assume the infection works much like the coins. Jim is into adaptive reuse. So I think the Athame has had its moment and that as long as the shadow is still on Lea, that the knife can't infect anyone else. And the shadow is still there, she tells us so in Changes. I think this sets up a scenario where Lea backslides and backstabs Mab.
Other possibilities exist. Lea was under the radar for some time, it isn't out of the realm of speculation that Cowl or some other member of the circle gave Lea more infected artifacts before she was discovered.
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[quote
I think Lea didn't become nemfected until she used the Athame to summon everyone in Winter who owed her a favor to capture Harry, near the end of Grave Peril. If simply touching the item passed the infection, it would have been all too easy for Bianca to infect herself, assuming she was just a patsy and not the mastermind of the operation. I can't describe it in exact terms, but something about using the Athame's magic passes the poison to its user. So it makes sense for Mab to permanently keep hold of the item. It can't harm her as long as she doesn't use it and it can't harm anyone else either. quote]
Or Bianca never handled the knife herself...
Grave Peril page 270 paperback
Bianca presented her with a small black case. Lea opened it, and a slow tremble ran down her body, made her flame-red hair shift and glisten.
Possible but doubtful that Bianca handled the knife herself.. Or Bianca could very well have been infected, but we will never know because she was killed by the ghosts of her victims. Or she was showing symptoms in the guise of her delusions of grandeur and power..
Also in Cold Days Mab confirms that "it was the knife..." That this is how Lea was infected and from her to Maeve.. So somehow Lea was infected by the knife and in turn infected Maeve, Mab suspected and was able to deal with Lea in time, but not Maeve.. So is Mab wrong about this?
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I don't think Victor Sells was infected, in my opinion he was what is called a "useful idiot.." You forgot that Mab, herself, was infected but she caught it in time.
There's a WOJ that the first Nemfected character to appear on stage did so in Grave Peril. So barring the remote possibility that this was one of the times he absolutely had to lie when answering a fan question because "I'm not going to tell you" would itself have been confirmation that someone was onto a big spoiler, I think you're right about Sells being a pawn. (Presumably, so were the FBI werewolves. Kravos is technically a candidate for the first N-fectee seen, but I lean towards him being another pawn and the WOJ most likely referring to Bianca or Cowl).
The question is, was Sells a pawn aimed at Marcone, or a pawn aimed at Harry?
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So somehow Lea was infected by the knife and in turn infected Maeve, Mab suspected and was able to deal with Lea in time, but not Maeve.. So is Mab wrong about this?
The knife is like the monkey from Outbreak. It didn't infect everybody. It was patient zero. Lea is infected by the knife. What happens to the knife at this point doesn't matter. Lea throws it into the river. Lea's infected. Lea sneezes on Maeve. Maeve is infected. Mab never says "Lea infected Maeve with the knife." She says "knife --> Lea --> Maeve."
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Possible but doubtful that Bianca handled the knife herself.. Or Bianca could very well have been infected, but we will never know because she was killed by the ghosts of her victims. Or she was showing symptoms in the guise of her delusions of grandeur and power..
Also in Cold Days Mab confirms that "it was the knife..." That this is how Lea was infected and from her to Maeve.. So somehow Lea was infected by the knife and in turn infected Maeve, Mab suspected and was able to deal with Lea in time, but not Maeve.. So is Mab wrong about this?
Perhaps I wasn't clear. If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself. Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item. The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.
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@Yuillegan
The reason I think that Nemesis cannot affect mortals is exactly because of what Lily says - it changes things that ought not to change. Immortals are incapable of free will, & hence they cannot choose to change themselves even if they so desired.
Mortals however can choose to change, & do so often - what is the added benefit provided by Nemesis here apart from directing the nature of the choice to change? There are several ways Nemesis could influence a mortal’s choice without Nfecting them.
I also find Sells’ story to be more powerful without Nemesis being part of it. The story of a man driven to insanity by his unquenchable thirst for power shows the real pitfalls & dangers of black magic - this is why the WC forbids certain acts, because unchecked these acts lead to people becoming like Sells, Kravos & the beheaded Korean kid.
I take the Gatekeeper’s words about Harry being an obstacle to a lot of Outsider plans for most of the series as almost every bad guy Harry faces in the casefiles is either on the Black Council or being manipulated by them as a cats paw, not necessarily that they are all Nfected.
@Yuillegan & Bad Alias
I like the idea that there are 2 separate things kinds of black magic - the taint on someone’s soul from regular use/ one big use of black magic, & actually using the un-life spectrum of energy (since Harry says that his type of magic uses the life spectrum) to wield black magic.
I think one leads to the other - one cannot wield the un-life spectrum of energy without having a black magic taint on their soul. This is why Harry is adept at necromancy in DB - he has a huge taint on his soul from HWWB (and the fact that he has killed before).
However I do believe that in order to be able to wield magic from the un-life spectrum, one must seek knowledge from beyond the Outer Gates.
I think there's some evidence that indirectly supports your take on things. As someone else pointed out, Lily was getting her information about Nemesis from Maeve, so that makes her a unreliable narrator when it comes to explaining who was or wasn't taken over by it. More specifically, we know it was the wolf pelt belts which turned the FBI agents who used them into crazed killing machines, and we know this because Harry used one of the belts himself. Unless Jim wants to change the narrative of the entire series and reveal that Harry has been nemfected since Fool Moon, which seems like a ludicrous idea, then the FBI agents weren't taken over by Nemesis either. More likely, the wolf pelt belts used a corrupting type of Outsider magic, and nothing more.
So if Lily was wrong about the FBI agents, it's likely she was wrong about Victor Sells too. Harry figured out that someone had to give Victor Sells training, because Sells wouldn't have known how to create something like the three-eye drug on his own. So Victor's teacher introduced him to using Black Magic but didn't warn him about its side effects. Also, it appeared Victor didn't know about the White Council either. Harry had to explain them to Victor. This destroys Lily's conception of events. Victor's teacher is part of what Harry has called the Black Council and it appears they are in league with the Outsiders, or they think they are using the Outsiders, it doesn't matter which is the case.
So it appears to me that only a few high ranking members of the Winter and Summer Courts can be confirmed as direct Nemesis victims. The FBI agents in Fool Moon and Victor Sells in Storm Front and probably Kravos in Grave Peril were only its pawns, but not controlled directly it. They weren't victims exactly either. They all made their own choices to use something they didn't and couldn't fully comprehend.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. If Bianca wasn't the person who decided to hand out a Nemesis infected gift or gifts, the last thing the real culprit would want Bianca to do is decide to look at the item; perhaps before the party, and pick it up and in the simple act of examining it, become nemfected herself. Seeing as Bianca was studying magic, it might be natural to assume she might want examine such a powerful artifact, both out of curiosity and to make sure it was an acceptable gift or trade item. The best way to ensure that couldn't happen was for the Athame to only infect the individual who used it.
Yes, however according to Mab, this is how Maeve got infected, up in the air whether or not because Lea let her handle the knife or directly from contact with Lea..
Cold Days page 503
" A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people fl;eed from the ears. That is why. Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
" It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's atame," Mab said in a neutral tone---but her eyes were far away. "The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That is how the Leananside was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
So according to Mab, once infected Lea was indeed able to pass on the infection to another, in this case her daughter... So either the knife was capable of spreading the infection to more than one or the individual once infected could spread it to others.. If you think about it it makes sense, if Bianca was infected by handling it, then giving it to Lea would have no effect save the power trip that Lea was already on.. If only Lea was infected by it there would be no way for her to pass it onto Maeve.. If the enemy wanted to create chaos with in the Winter Court, while Lea alone could cause damage, an epidemic of infection or infestation would create more..
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Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.
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Back to the question of future Nemfection, I reckon Harry will be infected, and this will be what causes him to cease being the Winter Knight. Something has to, at some point, since I don't see him staying in that role for the rest of the series, and I don't think Mab would let him go (and let him live) unless she absolutely had to. If Mab (or Molly?) needs to break the infection, it's possible that removing the mantle is necessary. It wouldn't have worked with Lea because of how long she's had her mantle, but Harry or Molly, maybe.
Does Lea even have a Mantle? I think she's just personally powerful. Not all powers are "mantles" per se...
I note that Vadderung seems able to put the "Kringle" mantle on, and take it off, more or less at will. I've been suspecting that Harry will learn this trick.
I think the Winter Knight mantle will be needed by Starborn Harry the Wizard in the BAT, where (I suspect) the Outsiders mount a huge offensive. But as you note, there's likely to be some non-Winter Harry between now and then!
Tentatively, I peg "Fight Night" for this. Harry wrestles gods, needs WK-Mantle to be more than a punching-bag, gets respect, one of them teaches him the trick for handling Mantles.
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A general comment about Lea & the athame: We must remember that the athame itself is so powerful that it is considered to be equal value to Amoracchius. So let’s sidestep the Nfection for a second (we’ll get back to it).
Here is the sequence of events from Lea’s POV -
Lea gets Amoracchius in GP, however it is kinda useless to her due to its nature. Lea manages to exchange Amoracchius for Morgana’s athame, which is an artifact whose power can likely be tapped by a Sidhe.
Lea is probably supposed to turn over the athame to her Queen so as to not upset the balance, however being a power-hungry Winter Fae, she is tempted to see if she can use the athame to overcome “that which stalks us all”. She fails & is instead Nfected. The likely target of this Black Council ploy is Mab, with Lea having been incidentally Nfected (clearly not something Nemesis is opposed to).
By merely choosing to keep/ use the athame, Lea upsets the power balance in the Winter Court - Mab has to take away Harry’s debt in compensation (talk about equal value!) to balance things. I wonder if this seemingly ‘free-willed’ choice on Lea’s part is what told Mab she was Nfected?
@KurtinStGeorge
Exactly - we only see high-level elder Sidhe get Nfected in the series so far, so having C/D grade bad guys like Sells & Kravos also be ‘Nfected’ would somehow cheapen the danger posed by Nemesis.
It is also clear that Nemesis cannot spread beyond a certain audience - if it is spreadable over a larger audience, everyone would know about it thus defeating one of its’ greatest weapons. My WAG is that Nemesis can only possess 3 people at a time.
@Lady Inez & g33k
The purpose of Winter is protect the DV from Outsiders - this is why they have the power etc. that they do. My WAG is that post-BAT, the Outsider threat will be neutralized once & for all - when this happens, what becomes of Winter’s purpose? Without the looming threat of Outsiders, the Fae courts will lose a lot of their raisin d’etre & power. Perhaps they will no longer require Knights, thereby freeing Harry?
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I don't think the athame was ever meant to be Mab's. The way I read it is that it was an arrangement between Marva, Bianca, and Lea. The sword was obtained by Lea. To get the athame Mab would have had to give Lea a gift of equal value, isn't that canon? And if the athame infected after being used then Lea was infected almost immediately. Since she opens some kind of portal with it.
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I don't think the athame was ever meant to be Mab's. The way I read it is that it was an arrangement between Marva, Bianca, and Lea. The sword was obtained by Lea. To get the athame Mab would have had to give Lea a gift of equal value, isn't that canon? And if the athame infected after being used then Lea was infected almost immediately. Since she opens some kind of portal with it.
No, it wasn't, Lea wanted it because she wanted Mab's job... Mab saw it and confiscated it.
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@Lady Inez & g33k
The purpose of Winter is protect the DV from Outsiders - this is why they have the power etc. that they do. My WAG is that post-BAT, the Outsider threat will be neutralized once & for all - when this happens, what becomes of Winter’s purpose? Without the looming threat of Outsiders, the Fae courts will lose a lot of their raisin d’etre & power. Perhaps they will no longer require Knights, thereby freeing Harry?
Winter is its own thing; being the Army Defending The Gate is a new gig for Winter... probably dating back to the Battle of Hastings or so.
Before that, it seems to have been one or more of the pagan gods.
Winter will move along just fine if the Outsider threat is neutralized. Possibly the Summer/Winter Courts will be a bit more balanced?
I expect the Knights will continue: "knights" seem like an integral part of medieval-esque "courts."
Dunno... maybe Mab will die, Molly will advance from Lady, and Harry will advance from Winter Knight to Winter's King, and they'll finally resolve that element of their relationship (yes, I know the DV doesn't seem to have such a thing; this mini-WAG includes that there IS such a role, but for some reason the role is unoccupied, or submerged in some other activity due to the War at the Outer Gates).
Or maybe Harry will figure out how to strip off Faerie Mantles, and get both himself and Molly out
I mean... we don't even know what's happening in the already-written next novel... and we're WAG'ing about the BAT & beyond?!? Why yes... yes we are. :o ::)
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We can't even be sure that non-fae CAN be infected. So far 100% of the known infected people are fae, being Lea, Maeve, Aurora, and Cat Sith. Others may be manipulated by those who are infected, but not necessarily infected themselves. Or even straight out working with them, but of their own free will.
I almost think that a creature with Free Will can not be infected, if the whole thing is to go against one's nature, as Free Will already lets someone do that.
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There are no humans who have the capacity to do much even if they were nemfected. So why bother? The outsiders want the Outer Gates to fall.
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There are no humans who have the capacity to do much even if they were nemfected. So why bother? The outsiders want the Outer Gates to fall.
Um, Harry is human, as is those on the White Council, the Holy Knights, White Vamps in my opinion as mere hosts for the Hunger Demon can be considered human, at least Thomas is according to Mab.. All have the capacity to do a great deal if they can become infected...
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Wizards are only quasi humans, given that, in the Dresdenverse humans can't do magic and won't live to be 400 years old, nor have the capacity to rebuild a burnt hand. White Court vamps are immortal. The Knights are a special case, but even they don't have access to the Outer Gates nor the ability to do much about it if they did. It isn't their brief.
You know, there is one question I haven't heard asked. What does the Gatekeeper do if he finds one of the wounded who has been Nemfected?
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As I recall, it explicitly takes a human to summon an Outsider directly into our world. And Wizards are human enough, if they have Free Will, for the purposes of my post.
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Maeve implies in cold days that she intended to Nfect Justine.
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Maeve implies in cold days that she intended to Nfect Justine.
I had forgotten that. Much like Archimedes lever and fulcrum. A human worth infecting. Maybe.
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As to the wizards/Whites aren't human debate, I try to be careful and either use the term "mortal" or "person" to try to distinguish different categories. It would be simple if the term mortal was always used the same way in the books, i.e., to refer to "vanillas" like Murphy and Marcone, but sometimes it's used to refer to wizards and such as well.
From my science learnin', when anything that can produce viable offspring with another thing, in their natural habitat, those two things are the same species. That would make Whites, Fae, Big Feet, and a host of other things human, but not mortal (unless you quibble about natural habitat).
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@morriswalters
I’m pretty sure Lea (or any other Fae) cannot accept artifacts that change the power balance of the Court without first consulting their ruler. Iirc, Mab says that Lea challenged her power once she had the athame like @Mira says. In the end, Mab is forced to take the athame as well as Harry’s debt in compensation to rebalance things. I’d be really curious about what happened there.
The Gatekeeper likely kills the host & attempts to contain the Outsider (perhaps to banish it back beyond the Outer Gates seeing as he & DR had a past disagreement (perhaps about an issue like this one)?). I’m fairly certain that once an Nfected host dies, the Nfection dies with it. After all, Mab did not seem unduly concerned about containing anything after Maeve dies in CD.
I’m also not sure that Whamps should be considered immortal. During the duel in WN, Harry explicitly says that the Whamps in attendance were entranced by Madrigal’s death since a typical Whamp is supposed to live for centuries. Besides, they are not true immortals since they can be killed any day of year, including Halloween.
@peregrine
I believe Lash says that Vito Malvora was “possessed by an Outsider” in WN. While I also don’t think that humans/ wizards can be Nfected, if I were playing Devil’s advocate, I would say that perhaps wizards/ quasi-mortals who get Nfected get a massive power boost, superhuman resilience & arcane knowledge? These are traits Cowl seems to show.
@g33k
Hmm not sure about that, the Aesir & Jotun don’t seem to be running around much these days (outside of Odin & his cohort). Hell, Monoc Securities seems to be functioning just fine without a Thunderer or any of the other Norse deities, so why wouldn’t Winter without most of its power (since it is derived through purpose in the DV) be able to function in the future without a WK?
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From my science learnin', when anything that can produce viable offspring with another thing, in their natural habitat, those two things are the same species. That would make Whites, Fae, Big Feet, and a host of other things human, but not mortal (unless you quibble about natural habitat).
Neanderthals beg to differ, but it isn't really important. Jim is somewhat vague about it, often using the term vanilla mortal. My use is aimed at the idea, that what is important, isn't who you are, but how you can affect the outcome the Outsiders seek.
@kbrizzle
The balancing is how Mab ends up with Harry's debt. And she still has the athame in Summer Knight.She arched her brows. "You should know better, dear godchild. You know I cannot speak what is untrue. During our last encounter I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, and your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ."
I frowned at her for a minute. "Returned with great power." My eyes fell to the knife at her waist. "That thing the vampires gave you?"
She rested her fingers lightly on the knife's hilt. "Don't cheapen it. This athame was no creation of theirs. And it was less a gift than a trade."
It's an interesting point for discussion, if not having a use by date is the same as not being able to be killed.
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The balancing is how Mab ends up with Harry's debt. And she still has the athame in Summer Knight.
Quote
She arched her brows. "You should know better, dear godchild. You know I cannot speak what is untrue. During our last encounter I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, and your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ."
I frowned at her for a minute. "Returned with great power." My eyes fell to the knife at her waist. "That thing the vampires gave you?"
She rested her fingers lightly on the knife's hilt. "Don't cheapen it. This athame was no creation of theirs. And it was less a gift than a trade."
This has me confused, Lea still has the knife after Mab has gained his debt... After she was gifted the knife in Grave Peril Lea gives Bianca the Holy Sword that Harry lost to her when he tried to kill her with it. We also know that a little human sacrifice was arranged as both entertainment and the breaking of a Holy Sword by it's misuse.. So my question is was the trade prearranged between Lea and Bianca? In other words was the knife something that Lea wanted but couldn't get until she got lucky when Harry screwed up?
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Harry was manipulated. Or so I believe. Marva wanted to strike at Michael. Bianca wanted Harry or war with the White Council. And Cowl wanted to strike at Winter, or more precisely at Mab. So my guess is that the deal was done in advance. However it is only a guess.
It is worth noting that Ferrovax got a gift. If you go into full tin hat mode then it is possible that his gift was tainted as well.
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Harry was manipulated. Or so I believe. Marva wanted to strike at Michael. Bianca wanted Harry or war with the White Council. And Cowl wanted to strike at Winter, or more precisely at Mab. So my guess is that the deal was done in advance. However it is only a guess.
It is worth noting that Ferrovax got a gift. If you go into full tin hat mode then it is possible that his gift was tainted as well.
A couple of things, and I wrote a post about this a while back, I think Lea may have possibly been infected before she got the knife. She just seemed a bit too power hungry and not as loyal to her queen as she should be. The events surrounding her helping young Harry for example, she manipulates him into striking a bargain with her for help to take on Justin. However he'd already taken on an Outsider successfully, and as Jim has pointed out at least once, she didn't give him anything in return for his promises other than some confidence.. Her offers to keep him safe by turning him into one of her hounds for example is hardly helpful, which leads him to grab and misuse a Holy Sword enabling her to take it to trade at the party... She had to know what Bianca wanted to do with it, or those behind Bianca, that the Sword would be unmade and the side her Court is essentially on no matter how loosely the affiliation would be weakened.
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@morriswalters
Hmm despite Lea saying so about Harry’s debt we know that Mab possesses the athame by Changes, so we know that she took it from Lea. Whether she took it because she figured it is Nfected & this wanted it away from Lea, or simply because its an object of immense magical power is debatable.
@Mira
I agree, the symmetrical set up of the gift giving at Bianca’s ball had me confused as well. Here is how I see the BC thinking about it:
- They give the Nfected athame to Lea, who in turn gives it to Mab
- They gift Lea a magical artifact of great value knowing that she will owe them a huge, commensurate favor in return in order to ‘balance the scales’. Perhaps the favor they were planning to call in was inside knowledge of the defenses @ Arctis Tor.
So in a way, they didn’t care if Lea had something to gift them in return to balance the scales since they were covered either way. I believe that Mavra was always planning on killing the girl as a way to force Harry & Michael to break their guest privileges - that she had Amoracchius was the cherry on top.
It is also possible that the Ramps reached out to Lea & set up the trade, although it would be awfully last minute. Lea was only able to get Amoracchius through a lucky series of events a day or 2 before the ball. So I doubt there was a longer term plan for Lea to steal Amoracchius- it reads to me as being opportunistic.
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Mab has the athame by Dead Beat.
Gift giving among the fae is symmetrical and part of canon. If you give them a gift they must reciprocate. At least that is my understanding.
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Wizards are only quasi humans, given that, in the Dresdenverse humans can't do magic and won't live to be 400 years old, nor have the capacity to rebuild a burnt hand ...
Nah, wizards are human.
Wizards just occupy a space within the "human range" not previously documented by science.
Humans and wizards look the same, intermingle socially, and interbreed freely. Non-wizards can have wizard kids, and wizards can have non-wiz kids.
It doesn't entirely follow "normal" genetics. Molly had the gift in part because Charity had lately been a practitioner; most/all the other kids have no gift, because Charity hasn't been using her gift at all. Lysenko lives!
The unlimited healing and long lifespan don't seem to be a feature of being (or not-being) a wizard, but of doing magic; otherwise the folks like Charity would stick out like sore thumbs! Any human doing magic will get those side effects, probably proportional to how often they work magic, and how powerful their workings. So the innumerable minor talents will tend to heal slightly faster/better, and live longer, but it shows as "unusual, but not shocking."
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@morriswalters
That’s right about Mab, my mistake. Yes I believe that about Fae gift giving as well - so my point was that by giving Lea such a powerful magical artifact (there must be a handful of artifacts that would be in the same league as Amoracchius), the BC was trying to create a massive obligation on Lea’s part - one they would likely brutally exploit.
Perhaps Uriel arranged for Lea to get Amoracchius in GP - Lea likely only decided to keep the athame for herself because she had opportunistically been able to get her hands on a commensurate ‘return gift’ - this basically saves Mab from becoming Nfected like Lea was.
@g33k
While I mostly agree with you, I believe there is an obscure WoJ that almost all wizards have some Changeling blood in their ancestry in the past - this is why they are able to do magic
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@g33k
Ok. I say instead they are members of the sub species homo wizardnerds. ;) As distinct from the sub species homo sapiens. :'( As a homo sap I should state that I am green with envy. In particular of the spell flickum bicus. As any rational person would be who has tried to start a camp fire in the rain. ;)
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Neanderthals beg to differ, but it isn't really important.
Also dogs and coyotes. Either I've never found/been given the proper scientific definition of species, or it's a wrong/incomplete concept.
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@g33k
Ok. I say instead they are members of the sub species homo wizardnerds. ;) As distinct from the sub species homo sapiens. :'( As a homo sap I should state that I am green with envy. In particular of the spell flickum bicus. As any rational person would be who has tried to start a camp fire in the rain. ;)
Except if you consider Molly, she is a wizard, but her siblings are all vanilla mortals.. So your theory of wizards being a sub species doesn't quite work.
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Also dogs and coyotes. Either I've never found/been given the proper scientific definition of species, or it's a wrong/incomplete concept.
I don't think the biologists understand it all that well.
@Mira
Jim plays fast and loose with biology. On one hand he ascribes magic to a genetic combination. On the other hand he he states to pass on magic you have to practice magic. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
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@Mira
Jim plays fast and loose with biology. On one hand he ascribes magic to a genetic combination. On the other hand he he states to pass on magic you have to practice magic. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
It's magic.
it doesn't have to make sense.
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I don't think the biologists understand it all that well.
@Mira
Jim plays fast and loose with biology. On one hand he ascribes magic to a genetic combination. On the other hand he he states to pass on magic you have to practice magic. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
Think of wizards like Labrador Retrievers, species wise they are dogs , however genetically the Labrador loves water and has the drive to retrieve... However not all Labs do, most are born sweet and happy, but won't retrieve a ball or duck, some are so obsessed with retrieving that they are considered hyper.. Some have the right combo of drive and intelligence, but to become a great hunting dog they have to be trained..
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@g33k
This is a deeper dive than I anticipated for an offhand remark. The obvious problem is, if magic is required to produce baby wizards, how did you get the first wizard? ???
@Mira
I understand what you mean, it's just that my head canon differs.
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The obvious problem is, if magic is required to produce baby wizards, how did you get the first wizard? ???
LOL
I just imagined talking to my bosses about wizard genetics. Either they would laugh and hope I made a joke. Or they would instantly fire me. Or they would keep me on probation but I would definitely loose lots of competence points. ;D
Maybe the magic was in humans (and animals) from the beginning. There was a time when magic was everywhere. But the talent for feeling and using it manifests only in few individuals nowadays. Recessive inheritance.
That's why some children have it and some not even if the parents are non-magical. That way magic can be inherited over several generations without a wizard in the family. And when two recessive magic genes are combined, then the possibility of a baby wizard is not so high as with a wizard or two in the family but it exists.
And maybe by using magic, the magic genes can be made stronger so that the possibility of making a baby wizard is higher than with a wizard parent who doesn't use his or her magic.
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@g33k
This is a deeper dive than I anticipated for an offhand remark. The obvious problem is, if magic is required to produce baby wizards, how did you get the first wizard? ???
@Mira
I understand what you mean, it's just that my head canon differs.
Dogs are a good example because there is such a wide variety of them from the tiny tea cup poodle to a giant Irish Wolfhound and everything in between, long hair, short hair, hairless, all were bred for different things, look and act totally different from one another, but in the end, they are all dogs descended from a common animal. That is the point..
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The obvious problem is, if magic is required to produce baby wizards, how did you get the first wizard? ???
The theory that all mortal practitioners are descended from faeries would answer that question. Though I'd imagine if mortals first became supernatural by being scions, it wouldn't be limited to faeries.
The counter to this is that the beliefs of mortals, most of whom are not practitioners, shape reality. Practitioners are just better at it than non-practitioners.
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As mentioned before, I believe there is an obscure WoJ that most wizards are descendants of Changelings. So at some level in order to be able to do magic, you have to have the blood of the NeverNever in you.
This makes sense since magic in the DV relies a lot on the NN to power it (shapeshifters using it to store/ borrow mass etc).
@morriswalters
Completely agree, I like your point about shaping reality.
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@kbrizzle
attribute that to Bad Alias. More later.
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Also dogs and coyotes. Either I've never found/been given the proper scientific definition of species, or it's a wrong/incomplete concept.
I believe that most modern biologists agree that "species" is an out-dated idea; still useful in some ways, the way Newtonian Physics is useful when launching satellites/spacecraft, even though it is known to be wrong (Einsteinian Physics is much closer to correct; but for most purposes the difference is negligible).
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Dogs are a good example because there is such a wide variety of them from the tiny tea cup poodle to a giant Irish Wolfhound and everything in between, long hair, short hair, hairless, all were bred for different things, look and act totally different from one another, but in the end, they are all dogs descended from a common animal. That is the point..
Then Mira we agree, at least broadly.
@g33k
If you must drag Ebeneezer into this discussion use Newtonian Mechanics rather than physics.
@Bad Alias
I wish more people understood that concept better, when applied to ephemeral events. Putting that aside though, I tend to think that Molly carried the gene and that her siblings didn't or that her siblings do and that if exposed to magic for any long span of time that they would come into magic themselves.
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...
@g33k
If you must drag Ebeneezer into this discussion use Newtonian Mechanics rather than physics ...
Point!
... Putting that aside though, I tend to think that Molly carried the gene and that her siblings didn't or that her siblings do and that if exposed to magic for any long span of time that they would come into magic themselves.
I'm pretty sure we have WoJ that it was specifically due to Charity's magical behavior. She was relatively-recently-active with Molly, but years-inactive with the others.
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I believe that most modern biologists agree that "species" is an out-dated idea; still useful in some ways, the way Newtonian Physics is useful when launching satellites/spacecraft, even though it is known to be wrong (Einsteinian Physics is much closer to correct; but for most purposes the difference is negligible).
My education on the subject is a good while back, and one's education is usually a decade or two out of date at the time it is received, so my education on the issue is probably cutting edge for the 80's or so. I have read recently that the field of evolution has been at a stand still for a "generation," a vague term that, based on the scientists mentioned, is likely to be at least two generations, so maybe my education was cutting edge since there wasn't a cutting edge at the time.
It was always very evident to me that the theory of evolution I was being taught wasn't fully baked as speciation was kind of an important part of the theory, and the definition of species resulted in humans being, necessarily, supernatural beings. But the scientific community was preaching evolution as inarguable fact. All that sort of thing does is damage credibility.
I tend to think that Molly carried the gene and that her siblings didn't or that her siblings do and that if exposed to magic for any long span of time that they would come into magic themselves.
Plenty of genes are "activated" by things that happen in utero. Based on WoJ, I think there is a strong possibility that magical talent may be one of them.
As mentioned before, I believe there is an obscure WoJ that most wizards are descendants of Changelings.
I remember plenty of discussion about that idea here, but I don't recall the WoJ. If anyone can find it, that would be appreciated.
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My education on the subject is a good while back, and one's education is usually a decade or two out of date at the time it is received, so my education on the issue is probably cutting edge for the 80's or so. I have read recently that the field of evolution has been at a stand still for a "generation," a vague term that, based on the scientists mentioned, is likely to be at least two generations, so maybe my education was cutting edge since there wasn't a cutting edge at the time.
It was always very evident to me that the theory of evolution I was being taught wasn't fully baked as speciation was kind of an important part of the theory, and the definition of species resulted in humans being, necessarily, supernatural beings. But the scientific community was preaching evolution as inarguable fact. All that sort of thing does is damage credibility.
Sounds like you had bad teaching going on. Sorry for your lost hours during childhood.
Plenty of genes are "activated" by things that happen in utero. Based on WoJ, I think there is a strong possibility that magical talent may be one of them.
Absolutely, this seems a given based on the Carpenter example WoJed. But I think we may also be overdoing it, because the books don't have to follow evolutionary theory TOO closely, they're fiction (with magic!) after all. Maybe the right genes aren't activated, maybe the soul is simply exposed to the Nevernever more directly thus allowing latent wizardry to bloom.
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I add emphasis:
... I believe there is an obscure WoJ that most wizards are descendants of Changelings ...
I suspect a great many NN beings can, potentially, be the cause of wizardry in their mortal descendepnts. Scions of old gods, etc etc etc.
I suspect that YHWH wants there to be wizards in the world, and His agents can probably effect that... even where no occult/NN bloodline is involved. Just as Uriel "nudged" Harry's casting vs. Thorned Namshiel in the Shedd to enable Harry's use of Soulfire, I suspect Dresdenverse angels can "nudge" a mortal who is intensely wishing/praying for something beneficial, enabling them to directly enact their wish.
I suspect there are other ways for wizardry to begin, too. Maybe "most" are descendents of Changelings... but if "most" is the word used in the (presumed) WoJ... that clearly means that not all wizards are descended from Changelings!
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... I believe there is an obscure WoJ that most wizards are descendants of Changelings ...
There is also, IIRC, the thing where Changelings can merge fully back into Faerie, or become fully human.
And the thing where Mab herself may once have been... mortal.
Not only are wizards biologically "human" ... so are the fae!
(biologically speaking. Magic obviously gets a say, too)
<wanders off, whistling innocently>
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Sounds like you had bad teaching going on. Sorry for your lost hours during childhood.
That was the end of college, so maybe childhood isn't the right term, but I do believe I've "wasted" a lot of time on education as I don't really think much is gained after 8th grade. After 8th grade, about 90% of the new information is in math classes, and the first year or so of college is basically the last two years of high school.
And I doubt it was a bad education because I went and looked for a better definition of species, being sure I was receiving an incorrect representation of scientific consensus, and couldn't find one. Not that I looked too hard. More google (or maybe it was yahoo back then?) and less library/scholarly journals.
I did point out to the professor (not in front of the entire class, teachers don't like that) the definition proffered required humans to be outside of and above nature, thus supernatural beings. He simply agreed with me. Maybe it was a bad education, but it's not like the subject matter of that class was going to add much/any value to my life even if taught impeccably. It just met a requirement for my degree plan.
[T]he books don't have to follow evolutionary theory TOO closely, they're fiction (with magic!) after all.
Agreed, but it is at least usually, but not always, an inherited thing, JB tries to make the stories fit the real world as best he can, so it stands to reason that genetics are probably one of the mechanisms that determine whether and to what degree one is a practitioner.
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Jim wanted Molly to be a wizard. The outcome then, is, inconsistency by retconning. I don't have a problem with that. However I called wizards quasi humans and that is incorrect given how the word human is defined
@Bad Alias
I did point out to the professor (not in front of the entire class, teachers don't like that) the definition proffered required humans to be outside of and above nature, thus supernatural beings.
His response should have offered you some insight to the nature of the problem.
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LOL
I just imagined talking to my bosses about wizard genetics. Either they would laugh and hope I made a joke. Or they would instantly fire me. Or they would keep me on probation but I would definitely loose lots of competence points. ;D
I have a drafted nonfiction book called "The A$$hole/Competence Matrix: How to Keep Your Job Forever." Basically, the idea is that you can be an a-hole OR incompetent and avoid getting fired for a while, but if you're both, you're let go pretty fast. If you're nice and competent, you'll hang around as long as you like. Obviously, layoffs, cutbacks, downsizing, and reorganization happens and there's little you can do to influence who gets let go during an organizational change like that, but assuming that the business will stay in business, staying in the correct quadrant the A$$hole/Competence Matrix will make sure you to keep your job as long as possible.
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On the First Wizards:
The books state outright that vanilla mortals can do magic, it's just really, really, really, really hard, to the point that it is impractical (when you could get the same or similar result using another method). Blood Rites included that mollochio (mallochio?) entropy curse ritual that could have been done by vanillas, presumably, since the power doesn't come from within themselves.
I believe it's also possible for vanillas to cut deals for power. Contact a demon or powerful Nevernever denizen, sell them an extra baby you had lying around, and get access to enough power to do real magic. I had assumed that's what Victor Sells did originally—he had a minor talent, worked at it, found a Sponsor, and used ritual magic to do his nastiness, with a side helping of thunderstorm-derived power.
Considering that Wizards' long lives are, per WoJ, a side effect of them using magic rather than a genetic anti-aging trait, I think it's possible that the first naturally-born wizards were those descended from vanilla mortals who cut deals or used enough ritual magic. It's closer to Lamarck's Acquired Traits theory than natural selection + Darwinian evolution, I think.
That could also partially explain why most wizards inherit their magic from their maternal line rather than paternal: their mothers were using magic while in the womb.
Obviously this is all speculation.
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That could also partially explain why most wizards inherit their magic from their maternal line rather than paternal: their mothers were using magic while in the womb.
Or magic is a sex linked gene carried by the mother.. It could also be recessive, which might explain how a future wizard can pop up in a family of vanilla humans..
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Makes me wonder what that gene would do. Simply unlock a kind of sixth sense that lets Wizards perceive magic better, maybe?
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Or magic is a sex linked gene carried by the mother.. It could also be recessive, which might explain how a future wizard can pop up in a family of vanilla humans..
Harry's grandma wasn't magical.
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Makes me wonder what that gene would do. Simply unlock a kind of sixth sense that lets Wizards perceive magic better, maybe?
That's basically my view of it. I'm sure it's more complicated because everything is usually more complicated. I'd guess that it's a number of magic genes because different wizards, and lesser practitioners, have different areas of innate talent and levels of strength, so it is probably a combination of multiple genes and environmental factors. And that is only what sets the stage for possibilities. The individual would then have to develop the inborn talents or set them aside like Charity did.
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Harry's grandma wasn't magical.
Exactly, but that doesn't mean she didn't carry a recessive gene for it... Like blue eyes are recessive, yet two brown eyed parents can have a blue eye child if the combo is right.
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... Considering that Wizards' long lives are, per WoJ, a side effect of them using magic rather than a genetic anti-aging trait ...
Is there (a WoJ on this)?
I was presuming it worked that way from how the books seemed to be written, but hadn't known of this WoJ.
I am presuming it's also responsible for the wizardly "can heal almost anything" effect... Is this also WoJ'ed?
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Is there (a WoJ on this)?
I was presuming it worked that way from how the books seemed to be written, but hadn't known of this WoJ.
I am presuming it's also responsible for the wizardly "can heal almost anything" effect... Is this also WoJ'ed?
Yes:
I’ve been wondering, is a magic-users longevity/ability to repair themselves due to their use of magic, or is it because they are able to access magic at all?
It’s because they /use/ magic.
Charity Carpenter was able to use magic at one point; will she have an extended life?
Not unless she takes it up again, which would be extremely difficult and which she doesn’t want to do.
And is the longevity tied to strength levels, as in do stronger wizards live longer?
Indeed. In the Dresden Files universe, magic is the essence of creation itself. Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes.
Source: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files/
Ctrl + F Longevity. All three of these questions are right after the other.
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Yes:
Source: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files/
Ctrl + F Longevity. All three of these questions are right after the other.
TYVM!
(your reply just rocks, btw -- quotation and citation!)
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One of my degrees is in History. Quoting and citing is about 3/4s of what you have to do.