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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Shift8 on July 12, 2017, 10:29:51 PM
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I forget which book it was but there was admission at some point that Dresden's reliance on revolvers due to their simplicity wasn't really necessary, and was a result of Harry's relative ignorance on guns at the start of the series or something.
We've seen alot of Wardens etc pack some pretty serious firepower throughout the series. So question is, when is Dresden going to get an assault rifle or something.
His enemies certainly use them. Micheal of course got the bad end of that. Seems about time Dresden and crew assault rifle up on the reg.
Actually this is part of an even bigger question of mine that I have wondered for some time. I can see why dresden doesnt pack a long gun everywhere since it would be inconvenient compared to a pistol. Although there have been a number of situations in the book where It might have been a good idea to get a rifle since he knew what he was going into. Context would be the determiner etc.
But how come the WC doesn't use full on geared out Wardens on high-end missions? Like it would seem totally logical to have Wardens who are going to war with the Ramps (for example) to basically just look like soldiers from any mortal army, save they can also do magic.
Keep in mind I am not saying this would make sense all of the time. Just a little confused why we haven't seen something like it except form singular characters.
Additionally this question is meant to be broad. Just a in general query about desire to increase the various characters firepower.
We need more Dakka.
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I can think of a couple of reasons.
From a Doyalist perspective, Jim just may not know guns. We know he's been criticized for using the wrong terms in books (Magazine vs clip).
From a Watsonian perspective for Harry, it could be just that he doesn't WANT a long gun. Now that he has the Winchester, that could change, but we really don't know. Also, I don't know the laws in Chicago, but we know Harry doesn't have a concealed carry license, so carrying a long gun would be out of the question. He even tells Eb not to have his shotgun in the rear window of his truck.
As to the Wardens being fully decked out ... you have to remember that the Wardens are actually police. So Large scale, coordinated efforts aren't really all that common. Most Wardens can take down a single warlock most of the time, so there isn't any real reason to heavily equip them. And really since the warlocks primarily will use their abilities, the old guard have the magical swords that can cut through enchantments. So they don't need much more.
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Also, long guns means two hands.
Most wizards use their hands for magic, or at least to hold staves and rods and other foci.
A handgun can leave one hand free to defend oneself -- hold up a shield while you're aiming -- while a long gun means you have to take a hand off it to do so. If you need to put up a magical shield, seconds count.
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Also, long guns means two hands.
Most wizards use their hands for magic, or at least to hold staves and rods and other foci.
A handgun can leave one hand free to defend oneself -- hold up a shield while you're aiming -- while a long gun means you have to take a hand off it to do so. If you need to put up a magical shield, seconds count.
A shield focus probably could be mounted on a wrist gauntlet to leave the left hand more free than Harry's bracelet focus does, with only slight changes to the design. If someone managed to do that and shape their shield with a slot or hole to the far side to shoot from (sort of like the Jackals in Halo, except they still use pistols and a hand-held shield) it could be quite formidable.
It does still pose a problem for carrying a staff, though, and reloads could be tricky.
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I forget which book it was but there was admission at some point that Dresden's reliance on revolvers due to their simplicity wasn't really necessary, and was a result of Harry's relative ignorance on guns at the start of the series or something.
It was Harry's ignorance, but admittedly he was parroting a very common prejudice against semi-automatics from revolver enthusiasts. The theory is that Semiautomatics statistically jam significantly more than revolvers (which are nearly impossible to jam); and to a wizard any such difference would be magnified by the Murphionic effect on all wizards. This is a common prejudice in a world (both RL and DF) were "Tried and True" rules because their lives are on the line, and trust comes slow. It took a long time for modern magazine designed to win over various police forces, for example. This was Murphy's point in SG, that actual, current, 21st century ones have largely solved the jamming issues.
BUT: Even though there existed electric lights in The Deeps strong enough to withstand a wizard duel, Marcone and Gard still decided to control their bombs with clockwork. When you have people running around who subconsciously warp reality itself so much that technology breaks near them (my interpretation of the murphionic effect), the risk assessment calculations change a great deal.
We've seen alot of Wardens etc pack some pretty serious firepower throughout the series. So question is, when is Dresden going to get an assault rifle or something.
His enemies certainly use them. Micheal of course got the bad end of that. Seems about time Dresden and crew assault rifle up on the reg.
Actually this is part of an even bigger question of mine that I have wondered for some time. I can see why dresden doesnt pack a long gun everywhere since it would be inconvenient compared to a pistol. Although there have been a number of situations in the book where It might have been a good idea to get a rifle since he knew what he was going into. Context would be the determiner etc.
But how come the WC doesn't use full on geared out Wardens on high-end missions? Like it would seem totally logical to have Wardens who are going to war with the Ramps (for example) to basically just look like soldiers from any mortal army, save they can also do magic.
In some ways they do, Changes showed that the Council wears modern military harnesses, with the speculation by Harry that modern military harnesses are actually modeled after the Council's gear.
As far as firearms (and grenades, etc) it always described as a generation gap: There is the Old Guard, most of which predate the invention of modern semi-automatic weapon, and the New Guard who are far more progressive thinkers and all carry modern military weapons (Carlos is the poster-boy for this group on page, but there are always mentions of there being plenty of others. The change is happening, and the War presumably forced them to shed a lot of pointless habits, but this is still a gerontocratic organization where the average age is measured in centuries, and most of the member predate the widespread use of electricity, and as a collective whole they tend to think they already know everything worth knowing, and know it better than anyone else alive.
So in other words, it's the same reason my grandmother refuses to get a cell phone: she lasted this long without one and doesnt need some young buck telling her what to do. :P
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With the resources the WC has they could get some really awesome stuff when they finally modernize to the max.
IMO, a team of wardens that is going into a very hot situation should look no different really than Seal Team Six. Helmets, rifles, optics, fatigues, E-SAPI plates, etc. General purpose machine guns, etc. Plus whatever swagatronious enchanted gear they can some up with.
M4 with underbarrel blasting rod anyone?
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I think you're asking the wrong question here. Why isn't the WC employing more mercenaries with guns so wizards have their hands free to do some more wizarding?
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I think you're asking the wrong question here. Why isn't the WC employing more mercenaries with guns so wizards have their hands free to do some more wizarding?
Who says they dont? ;)
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All I know is this: an increase in standard firepower that doesnt require magic would boost WC power significantly.
The great strength of magic is its distinct utility compared to tech. It can do many things tech cant, yet.
But the weakness is its inconsistency. Every wizard is different etc. This creates a tactical problem in the sense that losing single wizard in a team might be a critical blow. Akin to losing a queen in chess.
Id love to see how a Skin-walker handles being hit by an AT-4. Also who needs a black staff when I could just use a drone to AGM-114N any Vampire complex. Or anything else for that matter. Assuming its sufficiently resilient to magic, you could maybe even have it flying around in the never never and just have it pop out of a way wherever you need it, which would increase range and also avoid mortal authorities.
Plus smaller more less conspicuous civilian drones would be of significant use to all parties in the DV I would think. Simply for surveillance.
Things the wardens need:
-Standard assault rifle.
-Recoiless rifle or rocket launcher for big nasty hairy things. And small gods.
-Standard non-enchanted body armor with E-SAPI protection for wizards who cant make Dresden Duster 9000.
-More grenades.
-Thermal and night vision devices.
-Drones.
-short range wearable coms, such as throat mics.
-Grenade launchers such as M203 or M320.
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All I know is this: an increase in standard firepower that doesnt require magic would boost WC power significantly.
The great strength of magic is its distinct utility compared to tech. It can do many things tech cant, yet.
But the weakness is its inconsistency. Every wizard is different etc. This creates a tactical problem in the sense that losing single wizard in a team might be a critical blow. Akin to losing a queen in chess.
Id love to see how a Skin-walker handles being hit by an AT-4. Also who needs a black staff when I could just use a drone to AGM-114N any Vampire complex. Or anything else for that matter. Assuming its sufficiently resilient to magic, you could maybe even have it flying around in the never never and just have it pop out of a way wherever you need it, which would increase range and also avoid mortal authorities.
Plus smaller more less conspicuous civilian drones would be of significant use to all parties in the DV I would think. Simply for surveillance.
Things the wardens need:
-Standard assault rifle.
-Recoiless rifle or rocket launcher for big nasty hairy things. And small gods.
-Standard non-enchanted body armor with E-SAPI protection for wizards who cant make Dresden Duster 9000.
-More grenades.
-Thermal and night vision devices.
-Drones.
-short range wearable coms, such as throat mics.
-Grenade launchers such as M203 or M320.
Everything you describe just plain sounds like Vadderung and Co's style more than the Council of Wizards.
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Everything you describe just plain sounds like Vadderung and Co's style more than the Council of Wizards.
Yeah! Which would be a big improvement. Remember Vadderung taught the original merlin. Must know what hes doing.
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Yeah! Which would be a big improvement. Remember Vadderung taught the original merlin. Must know what hes doing.
Basically you're acting like the hidebound, centuries old order of wizards to not act like an order of wizards.
They're not a military. They're just not the kind of organization that would do most of what you're suggesting.
Also, doing all that kind of upgrading is going to get mortal authorities to notice. The White Council doesn't particularly want that kind of notice, but creating a military is going to get peoples' attention.
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Basically you're acting like the hidebound, centuries old order of wizards to not act like an order of wizards.
They're not a military. They're just not the kind of organization that would do most of what you're suggesting.
Also, doing all that kind of upgrading is going to get mortal authorities to notice. The White Council doesn't particularly want that kind of notice, but creating a military is going to get peoples' attention.
Im not saying the WC would do this, but that they should.
And the WC is functionally a nation state in the sense that they both wage war and do police operations. They already act as if they are/have a military. The question is what kind of military they want to be.
The only bit of gear on that list that would be even remotely difficult to get would be the predator drone and the AT-4. Thats it. Everything else on that list I could go out and buy myself without anyone giving a hoot. I just need the deep financial capacity of the WC. Not to mention that the acquisition difficulties are more or less moot, since everyone from Murphy to Vadderung seems to be able to get whatever they need whenever they need it. The Ramps certainly didnt give a crap about what they purchased, they just got it. Quite frankly the Ramps having modern weapons in spades is what kept them relevant during the war given their low number of sorcerers.
The WC needs to figure out what century its in. They are doing alright, but they could do alot better with their deep pocketbook.
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Seems to me I read somewhere that actual war between supernatural nations is a pretty rare thing.
That being said, having a standing army doesn't make sense. Having something like Archangel makes much more sense. A smaller team of heavy hitters that can do surgical strikes.
Then you have your para-military police force that can be called on to fight. Kind of like the Jedi or the Wardens.
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Most of the wizards in positions of authority were born pre civil war. Give it 50 years and the younger generation will be teaching newcomers to wear enchanted military body armor and carry flash bang grenades and concealed handguns at minimum.
flash bangs specifically would probably do amazing because most shields wouldn't block bright light or loud sounds and they would screw up mental concentration.
also Ive always wanted harry to get some enchanted firefighting turnout boots, grenades, vampbraces, maybe shin guards and some type of head protection. Those would go along way to protecting his weak spots without encumbering him too much. He is way to vulnerable to an ambush
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Bacchus,
Unfortunately, with the WK mantle, he doesn't feel the harm being done, so he's not going to even think about it.
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i don't know in his last adventures he had his forearm busted up and his calf shot through. hes got to know that his duster leaves huge gaps in protection.
i was also annoyed that during his year of isolation he didn't have Thomas bring over a variaty of overly reliable firearms and thousands of rounds of ammo so he could train himself.
i mean Murphy has been giving him crap about that for years.
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The ideal weapon for Dresden I think would be something like a MP-7. Small, but better than a pistol.
Maybe a Cz-75 or G-17 for when he needs something even more basic.
And a Tavor for when he knows he is going into the shit. Like the fight on Demonreach. Or South America.
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Those are all 9 mm right? I'd be thinking more extreme calibers he's 6'9" and super strong so he could easily control guns that only bodybuilders could effectively use. He would also have no problem hiding them under his duster.
how about a sawed off 12 gage with slugs shot one handed for close quarters
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Those are all 9 mm right? I'd be thinking more extreme calibers he's 6'9" and super strong so he could easily control guns that only bodybuilders could effectively use. He would also have no problem hiding them under his duster.
how about a sawed off 12 gage with slugs shot one handed for close quarters
The pistols were 9mm. The Tavor is 5.56x45 and the Mp7 is 4.6mm or something weird.
Strength really does not help weapon control much, and to the extent that is does, most massive rounds are still impractical for self defense use. There is also the issue to magazine capacity.
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Those are all 9 mm right? I'd be thinking more extreme calibers he's 6'9" and super strong so he could easily control guns that only bodybuilders could effectively use. He would also have no problem hiding them under his duster.
how about a sawed off 12 gage with slugs shot one handed for close quarters
One of the criticisms Murphy had of Harry's revolvers was that there were only 6 shots. Using a sawed off 12-gague would not help that.
I'm thinking more like a S&W 915. 9mm with 15 in the magazine and one in the chamber gives him 16 shots. Carry a couple of extra magazines and your set.
Granted 9mm doesn't have the stopping power of a .45, but it's still pretty good for the trade off of mobility and availability.
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personally I never understood why there isn't a weapons master for the wardens. If they all get a sword and a cloak why not a set of armor or shield like swat or at the very least someone independent that makes stuff like the guy that made daredevils suits in the netflix show
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One of the criticisms Murphy had of Harry's revolvers was that there were only 6 shots. Using a sawed off 12-gague would not help that.
I'm thinking more like a S&W 915. 9mm with 15 in the magazine and one in the chamber gives him 16 shots. Carry a couple of extra magazines and your set.
Granted 9mm doesn't have the stopping power of a .45, but it's still pretty good for the trade off of mobility and availability.
Honestly I dont think the weight advantage of a 9mm vs .45 is going to register on a guy Harry's size. For Murphy or even the average sized man it becomes more pronounced (and there will almost always be more rounds per magazine).
Personally Ive always thought Harry's future gun needs to be a Taurus Judge so that he'd have a pistol with .45 rounds AND the versatility of .410 shotgun shells (and all the various wonders you can load into shells). only 5 shots, but that does offer some fun thematic connections to a pentagram.
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I like the .410 with 5 shots. However, if he uses any of those special rounds he risks the weapon and not being able to use it any more.
Though with his diamonds, having enough weapons shouldn't be a problem now.
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I like the .410 with 5 shots. However, if he uses any of those special rounds he risks the weapon and not being able to use it any more.
Though with his diamonds, having enough weapons shouldn't be a problem now.
Not at all, this is an actual functional firearm that exists today, it has no unusual danger of blowing up or being damaged (they have specially designed rifling to hold up to firing shot).
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Not at all, this is an actual functional firearm that exists today, it has no unusual danger of blowing up or being damaged (they have specially designed rifling to hold up to firing shot).
Ohhhh ...
No, I was taking about the special rounds that Harry learned of from Kincaid. Like the SUPER hot ones that Harry used on DR in Small Favor.
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Ohhhh ...
No, I was taking about the special rounds that Harry learned of from Kincaid. Like the SUPER hot ones that Harry used on DR in Small Favor.
These are also real, if you mean the flame ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKxmKFld5DA
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https://youtu.be/RP4FjODPDFA?t=276
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There are no two ways about it. Harry needs a Tavor. :)
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he is better with sawed of rifle as his heavy option probably sawed of sniper with self made ammo and enchantment to magnify sight maybe with slow time effect so he can fire in emergency
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personally I never understood why there isn't a weapons master for the wardens. If they all get a sword and a cloak why not a set of armor or shield like swat or at the very least someone independent that makes stuff like the guy that made daredevils suits in the netflix show
I wondered something similar actually. Yes, Luccio used to make the swords BUT that's a specific, unique item. I don't watch daredevil, so maybe my thought is already expressed, but I'm thinking more like someone who is tasked with looking over the wizard's arsenal and directing them appropriately. (No wand? Oh, oh, sorry "blasting rod". Yeah, you'll need one. No bullet dampener focus? Ok, you'll need to fix that. Here's a book on how to create short and long term focii, and forms to request materials. Return it undamaged, if you value your health. Using a revolver? What are we, the wild west? Use a semi-auto son, we ARE in the 21st century after all!) He could even be responsible for handing out expensive materials for enchanting requirements, or even holding specific items when not needed in the field, and then chases down the wizard who borrowed it (with or without extreme prejudice :)). Basically... a wizard version of Q?
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a nerdier example would be microchip for the punisher or wayne tech for batman
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I think the real barrier for wardens with regards to packing serious firepower in the shape of guns is range. They pack swords in part because they are old school, but also because a wizard is at their weakest at point blank range. Wizards like to fight at range - where their magic is much more useful.
the other reasons is that wizards have limited time. Becoming experts in a lot of weapons simply takes time to achieve and practice to maintain. It is certainly doable, but almost all wizards are going to limit themselves to a small number of such weapons so as to minimize the time required as they really want to devote their free time to magic, not firearm skill. That naturally lends itself to wizards having a favorite few weapons and ignoring the rest.
Finally, when it comes to supernatural threats, a supernatural threat with a gun is going to have a significant advantage over a wizard with a gun -- faster reflexes, supernatural grace, etc. Firearms are never going to be more than a backup weapon for a wizard. Their magic is simply a far bigger threat to enemies. Where firearms have an edge is when the battle is long (ie - they exhaust their magic), when the gun is unexpected (surprise), when their foe is particularly good at blocking magic, or when they need to kill something without breaking the laws of magic.
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Actually I would say its the exact opposite in nature, at least with most of the direct evocation most of the Wizards in the DV use most of the time.
Range is usually the advantage of the guns in the DV. Wizards as I see it are much more deadly in close. Remember that Harry thought a sniper was the most dangerous thing to him. A in close enemy he can see is far more his purview.
I dont think it can really be argued that learning how to use a gun would somehow hinder the use of magic. Regular mortals IRL learn more than one skill in addition to using a gun. You can go to school for engineering and still be a special forces person. For the same reason you can play in the NBA and go to school for something useful. When you add in that wizards live for centuries, this becomes even more moot.
Really depends on the nature of the supernatural threat though. We have seen plenty of Ramps and Wamps get outdrawn and out fought in gun duels. There is alot more to a gun fight that reaction speed, and even then the speed difference has to exceed other factors to actually matter.
IIRC in the very first book Dresden lays out why he uses guns, and the theme is both restated and shown throughout the books. Guns are not secondaries. They are complements. In certain situations they are better than the magic most wizards use in direct fights.
Quite frankly one of the best parts about the DV is that guns and technology are in a competitive, rather than hierarchical, relationship. Most other urban fantasy tend to make regular non magic users completely worthless. One of the reasons I loved the DV in the first place is that it did NOT do this.
That is what makes the DV so awesome. No other fantasy series I know of combines magic with guns like the DV. Seriously what is better than a giant gunfight between vampires and wizards where both sides are also using supernatural abilities and flinging lightning?
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I think that wizards would be less effective if their focus was split between guns, and magic. They wouldn't be as good with guns as the professional mercenaries hired by the supernatural community, and by focusing on guns they would be giving up their greatest advantage, magic.
There is a saying that "you run when the plan fails" - Tremors movie. Well guns are what wizards use when the plan fails. Guns are basically a last ditch effort to survive.
That being said the White Council might be better off if they recruit the least magically talented people around the world (instead of ignoring them), and have them focus on traditional military training to help support the more magically gifted wizards.
That's how I see things anyways.
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I think that wizards would be less effective if their focus was split between guns, and magic. They wouldn't be as good with guns as the professional mercenaries hired by the supernatural community, and by focusing on guns they would be giving up their greatest advantage, magic.
I dunno, I think the same logic could be applied to studying markmenship vs hand-to-hand combat, but both are valuable to a soldier.
There is a saying that "you run when the plan fails" - Tremors movie. Well guns are what wizards use when the plan fails. Guns are basically a last ditch effort to survive.
I have to disagree here, it's been stated in the books over and over that guns do not fall behind magic when it come to killing, that they are unarguably well-optimized instruments of death.
That being said the White Council might be better off if they recruit the least magically talented people around the world (instead of ignoring them), and have them focus on traditional military training to help support the more magically gifted wizards.
That's how I see things anyways.
Ya, because the Have-Nots already loved getting drafted into the Council's war, they are going to LOVE getting conscripted into their subordinate military forces :P
No, that's not something the council is going to do or anyone is likely to agree to; the only actual benefit of Council membership is actual full Membership. That is, however, exactly what Nic has done give or take a few Tongues. Mostly Take.
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I dont think it can really be argued that learning how to use a gun would somehow hinder the use of magic. Regular mortals IRL learn more than one skill in addition to using a gun. You can go to school for engineering and still be a special forces person. For the same reason you can play in the NBA and go to school for something useful. When you add in that wizards live for centuries, this becomes even more moot.
I'd argue that this is true for the current generation and will be so for those following it, but that a big part of the reason why this isn't the case now is because Ebenezer, for example, grew up and fought in the age of muskets and blackpowder cannon. Yes, the puckle gun was a thing, but the idea of reliable, long-range, rapid-fire (read: faster than three shots per minute, the average for Von Steuben trained Colonial Regulars) guns is still relatively new, first showing up 160 years ago. Hell, McCoy still drives a '37 pickup. There are a couple of generations of wizards who are getting used to the idea, but they're mostly trained by those who aren't yet.
Best example is Carlos. The younger wardens get it, and they're arming up. I wouldn't be surprised if someone like, say, Butters figures out ways to combine guns and magic to get different effects. Harry's Winchester could be crafted and enchanted to function as a modified blasting rod, for instance—I don't see why it couldn't. Though likely a bull-pup design would work better, with a magazine in the stock to keep it farther away from the heat.
Anyway, old habits die hard, but the new generations are using more mixed approaches to combat.
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Given that wizards tend to mess up sensitive equipment, I sadly don't see them using things like night-vision googles or drones etc. If they were using firearms, well then it would be things like AK-47's which are built to be used in the most adverse conditions or sporting-rifles or pump-action shotguns. Simple, but reliable weapons.
/Ulfgeir
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I have to disagree here, it's been stated in the books over and over that guns do not fall behind magic when it come to killing, that they are unarguably well-optimized instruments of death.
Against vanilla mortals. Supernatural creatures are made of tougher stuff.
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Against vanilla mortals. Supernatural creatures are made of tougher stuff.
What's said in the books is that guns are so much overkill for killing humans that they're starting to be able to threaten supernatural creatures.
Guns absolutely fall behind magic when it comes to killing; it's just that they're catching up.
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What's said in the books is that guns are so much overkill for killing humans that they're starting to be able to threaten supernatural creatures.
Guns absolutely fall behind magic when it comes to killing; it's just that they're catching up.
that's true. I have argued that the best thing for Lord Raith would be a .50 cal sniper round to the head (since magic slips off of him). It's not as much the weapons but the training required for wizards working as a military unit would diminish their use of magic I think. Like Jim saying that wizards tools require a lot of weekly up keep to function. Seems like the training required for traditional military conflict, + magical weapons upkeep seems like they would do little else than prepare for war which doesn't sound like their style.
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that's true. I have argued that the best thing for Lord Raith would be a .50 cal sniper round to the head (since magic slips off of him).
And given that such weapon could be used at a supposedly safe range (current world record for longest confirmed kill (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canadian-sniper-iraq-world-record-longest-kill-shot-rifle-military-a7802151.html) is at almost 3.5 km now as far as I know). Now, the question is wether or not he would be able to sense the bullet approaching, and then move out of the way due to his super-speed.
/Ulfgeir
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An even easier way to kill Raith would be a JDAM to the Raith Mansion. Plus you'd wipe out quite a few Wamps. One does wonder why McCoy didnt do this already. If your going to drop a Sat on Ortega, you might as well take out the Wamps too.
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And given that such weapon could be used at a supposedly safe range (current world record for longest confirmed kill (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canadian-sniper-iraq-world-record-longest-kill-shot-rifle-military-a7802151.html) is at almost 3.5 km now as far as I know). Now, the question is wether or not he would be able to sense the bullet approaching, and then move out of the way due to his super-speed.
/Ulfgeir
I think a sniper like Kincaid would be successful for 3 reasons
1. He wouldn't hear it coming because the bullet moves faster than sound
2. His energy reserves are either gone, or nearly gone so he's not that powerful
3. He didn't dodge the bullets Harry shot him with so it might be beyond his ability to do
An even easier way to kill Raith would be a JDAM to the Raith Mansion. Plus you'd wipe out quite a few Wamps. One does wonder why McCoy didnt do this already. If your going to drop a Sat on Ortega, you might as well take out the Wamps too.
It does make you wonder....
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I dont think it can really be argued that learning how to use a gun would somehow hinder the use of magic. Regular mortals IRL learn more than one skill in addition to using a gun. You can go to school for engineering and still be a special forces person. For the same reason you can play in the NBA and go to school for something useful. When you add in that wizards live for centuries, this becomes even more moot
I don't really agree-people who learn multiple skills to a professional or elite level are exceedingly rare.
In the US military, you probably not going to be pursuing an engineering degree while serving in a combat unit. If you're in med school as active duty-THAT is your job, not preparing for/fighting war.
Some NBA players pursue degrees in summer, but not during the season. And being in the playoffs wouldn't allow summer classes either. For NCAA players in major sports, actually getting a good education is an aberration, not the norm.
Sure a bit of versatility is always welcome. But your average wizard is likely better served by becoming a better wizard, rather than worrying about 'muggle' skills.
I'll offer a real world example as a rebuttal: the minimum salary in the NBA is over $400000. Is an NBA player better served by finishing that accounting degree, or becoming a better basketball player and chasing a max contract(20 million+ a season).
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But anyway, the real reason I'm against all this is because I don't want to pick up a Dresden book and have to skip paragraphs of gun porn.
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I don't mind seeing firepower from wizards. I think Jim has a pretty good balance throughout the books. I could maybe see Harry meeting a special ops group who specialize in guns because their role is to target creatures where guns are actually a preferred weapon to magic. Some sort of close quarters combat where speed is preferred to magic.
Kincaid has shown that guns are effective, even if not as "powerful" as magic.
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I don't really agree-people who learn multiple skills to a professional or elite level are exceedingly rare.
In the US military, you probably not going to be pursuing an engineering degree while serving in a combat unit. If you're in med school as active duty-THAT is your job, not preparing for/fighting war.
Some NBA players pursue degrees in summer, but not during the season. And being in the playoffs wouldn't allow summer classes either. For NCAA players in major sports, actually getting a good education is an aberration, not the norm.
Sure a bit of versatility is always welcome. But your average wizard is likely better served by becoming a better wizard, rather than worrying about 'muggle' skills.
I'll offer a real world example as a rebuttal: the minimum salary in the NBA is over $400000. Is an NBA player better served by finishing that accounting degree, or becoming a better basketball player and chasing a max contract(20 million+ a season).
Ill counter with my own real world example.
Its not really rare at all. I dont know the exact percentage, but a large portion of military members pursue degrees in STEM fields while also being in combat units. When it comes to officers, this is actually the norm, since they must have a college degree in almost all cases. Officers with combat MOS specialties have degrees in just about everything. It is pretty common if not the majority case that Army officer's degrees have nothing to do with their military job. I myself am a Combat Engineer and I am currently pursuing a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Many many military personnel in combat jobs pursue college degrees, often in difficult fields. An Infantryman I knew on deployment had a PhD, another was a Lawyer. An officer I knew who ran our Operations section (planning and controlling all our missions) was a Navy helicopter pilot who had a degree in Mechanical engineering. Hows that for multi-specialty? Its fairly common.
The wizards we are talking about live for centuries, and have money out the wazoo. They pretty much have nothing but time and cash to blow. They have many times the capacity of a normal mortal to obtain many different skills.
Not to mention that acquiring low level tactical competency is not that difficult, especially since most of the people you will ever go up against will also be in that category of skill. And given all the time the wizards have, not to mention all the combat experience, they could/should be operator as all get out.
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Ill counter with my own real world example.
Its not really rare at all. I dont know the exact percentage, but a large portion of military members pursue degrees in STEM fields while also being in combat units. When it comes to officers, this is actually the norm, since they must have a college degree in almost all cases. Officers with combat MOS specialties have degrees in just about everything. It is pretty common if not the majority case that Army officer's degrees have nothing to do with their military job. I myself am a Combat Engineer and I am currently pursuing a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Many many military personnel in combat jobs pursue college degrees, often in difficult fields. An Infantryman I knew on deployment had a PhD, another was a Lawyer. An officer I knew who ran our Operations section (planning and controlling all our missions) was a Navy helicopter pilot who had a degree in Mechanical engineering. Hows that for multi-specialty? Its fairly common.
The wizards we are talking about live for centuries, and have money out the wazoo. They pretty much have nothing but time and cash to blow. They have many times the capacity of a normal mortal to obtain many different skills.
Not to mention that acquiring low level tactical competency is not that difficult, especially since most of the people you will ever go up against will also be in that category of skill. And given all the time the wizards have, not to mention all the combat experience, they could/should be operator as all get out.
Thank you! I /felt/ like this should be the case, but I dont have enough personal exposure to actual military life (or anything reasonably comparable) enough to articulate it.
PS Am I the only one seeing a huge block of empty space at the end of your post?
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Thank you! I /felt/ like this should be the case, but I dont have enough personal exposure to actual military life (or anything reasonably comparable) enough to articulate it.
PS Am I the only one seeing a huge block of empty space at the end of your post?
np, and yeah I was wondering about that too. No idea what happened. I did lose internet connection while I was typing that so maybe that did it.
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Harry's Winchester could be crafted and enchanted to function as a modified blasting rod, for instance—I don't see why it couldn't. Though likely a bull-pup design would work better, with a magazine in the stock to keep it farther away from the heat.
If that could be done, then you'd see more wizards carrying firearms as a first choice. It's probably not easy crafting metall into a useful focus for versatile magic. Staffs, Harry's blasting rod, Molly's wands seem to be made of wood, sometimes with the addition of crystals.
Luccio's swords were extremely special in that respect. I suppose the younger wardens might not carry swords any more because a sword isn't that useful either without being a powerful focus at the same time.
Each wizard spends a lot of time thinking about his gear and maintaining it. We've seen Harry crafting new stuff, sometimes he keeps them, sometimes dismisses them later. I'm sure a lot of wizards have experimented with firearms too. So far there wasn't an enchanted gun in the books. But we might see one at some time.
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If that could be done, then you'd see more wizards carrying firearms as a first choice. It's probably not easy crafting metall into a useful focus for versatile magic. Staffs, Harry's blasting rod, Molly's wands seem to be made of wood, sometimes with the addition of crystals.
Nah, Harry did a lot of work in Metal (force rings, shield bracelet, bear belt buckle, svartalf Summoning circle, lighting chain). He even laments in SG that he'd not yet had the time or money to rebuild his metalcrafting capabilities, which is why he moved some of his standard enchantments to his staff. But have you ever tried to carry around a 2"x6' staff made of steel? Or even a 1"x18" rod? Not going to be winning any footraces carrying those. Wood is traditional, is far easier to work in general, and makes a far lighter final product. Also, if a wooden blasting rod explodes from being overloaded (like in Changes) its going to do less damage to it's wielder than a metal rod exploding (with or without molten shrapnel).
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If that could be done, then you'd see more wizards carrying firearms as a first choice. It's probably not easy crafting metall into a useful focus for versatile magic. Staffs, Harry's blasting rod, Molly's wands seem to be made of wood, sometimes with the addition of crystals.
Luccio's swords were extremely special in that respect. I suppose the younger wardens might not carry swords any more because a sword isn't that useful either without being a powerful focus at the same time.
Each wizard spends a lot of time thinking about his gear and maintaining it. We've seen Harry crafting new stuff, sometimes he keeps them, sometimes dismisses them later. I'm sure a lot of wizards have experimented with firearms too. So far there wasn't an enchanted gun in the books. But we might see one at some time.
Easy fix. Under-barrel blasting rod.
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Id have to assume putting the actual enchantments on the gun itself would severely intensify any murphionic effects that might screw it up at the worst possible moment, a lot more than just being operated near active magic.
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Nah, Harry did a lot of work in Metal (force rings, shield bracelet, bear belt buckle, svartalf Summoning circle, lighting chain). He even laments in SG that he'd not yet had the time or money to rebuild his metalcrafting capabilities, which is why he moved some of his standard enchantments to his staff. But have you ever tried to carry around a 2"x6' staff made of steel? Or even a 1"x18" rod? Not going to be winning any footraces carrying those. Wood is traditional, is far easier to work in general, and makes a far lighter final product. Also, if a wooden blasting rod explodes from being overloaded (like in Changes) its going to do less damage to it's wielder than a metal rod exploding (with or without molten shrapnel).
These are all very special tools, the more versatile foci are wooden. At least those we've seen. Elaine has come closest to a versatile metall focus with her lightning chain. Which Harry promptly copied and taught the Warden trainees about.
I agree with your point about the weight. It's definitely a factor wizards consider when they are preparing their weapons.
Easy fix. Under-barrel blasting rod.
If it were easy and/or practical, we'd have seen it by now. Look, you keep arguing that the older wizards are somehow being stupid about all that modern stuff. Not in those words, maybe, but in essence, because being hidebound and arrogant is a dumb way of being stupid when your life is on the line.
That can't be it imo, because being prepared is what wizards are supposed to be good at. It just doesn't make sense that the more experienced ones would simply ignore the possibilities of firearms. Especially not the Wardens, who have full-time jobs as fighters/police. They see their younger colleagues using them. They put a lot of time and effort into deciding what they carry into a fight and into maintaining their gear. They make choices about what they carry and what they leave behind. Their life depends on those choices. And the life of the people they protect. They literally can't afford to ignore a good idea when it comes to weapons.
btw: Older Wizards do use guns too. Here are just two examples:
Ebenezar has a rifle in his car in Blood Rites and he shot at Kincaid with it. Last sentence in chapter 29: "And then both of them went for their guns." First sentence in Chapter 30: "Kincaid was faster." It goes on with Ebenezar rending Kincaid's weapons useless with magic.
Morgan shot Peabody in the end and his shots were very precise and spot on. Seems to me that he was a good marksman, which suggests training. He just doesn't use guns as his preferred weapon in a fight. As he's dead now, we'll probably never know his reasons for this, but he was considered one of the best fighters the WC had. That's sort of connected I think.
Imo, it comes down to this: Each wizard decides carefully which stuff is worth the effort in both creating and maintaining it and when it comes to the action, carrying the weight around that might slow them down. So we have evidence that some wizards - apparently the younger ones - prefer guns, grenades and such things, while others aren't seen using them. (They might still have a gun somewhere in their inner pockets). Now imagine you were the one who's going to fight them. Are you really assuming your opponents are just being stupid or are you planning for a fight that might kill you? ;)
Consider this too: There are some comments from younger wizards or fighters (Sanya for example) about how progressive they are being by also using guns and such. There is none from an older wizard (or from Michael, who used to be in the army so he must have had basic training with weapons) about how stupid those kids are to rely on them. Despite the fact that most of them apparently have decided at some point in their career that they'd rather bother with something else. The conclusion I'm drawing is that they have their reasons and they respect the choices of the kids because they might know from experience that their alternatives might not yet be available or really better for the kids.
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These are all very special tools, the more versatile foci are wooden. At least those we've seen. Elaine has come closest to a versatile metall focus with her lightning chain. Which Harry promptly copied and taught the Warden trainees about.
I agree with your point about the weight. It's definitely a factor wizards consider when they are preparing their weapons.
I suppose it's always possible that the material plays a role in what sort of enchantments it can take. We know Rubies, Silver, and Iron all have specific effects, for example. I guess I always got the impression that the two sort of went together: the more specific/specialized the application, the more specific and/or specialized the requirements of construction, and thus the more general the application (ie a staff as the extreme) the /less/ specialized the requirements.
It's also likely that it's not a Pass/Fail sort of situation, but rather that different materials have different pro's and con's. We know, for example, that at a certain point only Blood is capable of carrying large amounts of Power in a ritual (per SmF iicr), or when Harry worried in SG that he'd miscalculated his new staff and might overload the limits of what the physical material could hold (risking an explosion of kinetic force), and at the absolute end there's supposed to be a hard limit on the amount of magic that can be crammed into a given physical object (a limit DR breaks). All this to say that materials certainly play a role on the descision matrix, but might not be hard and fast by spell application.
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well if harry gonna cast magic via revolver i think jim would made him a cowboy instead but there is a way to harry to get some real good gun and funnily its from monoc securities and it must be custom made to just for him like Mjölnir for thor. only person can buy him a major boom stick is molly via request to odin and the only time she can buy is accidentally where harry can bust a cap on mabs ass aka Halloween and i dont think mab will like that.
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Most pilots have STEM degrees going in. For AF it's pretty much impossible to become a pilot otherwise.
I'd double check on the people getting graduate degrees. By brother and most of his friends have their masters in engineering management. They're not actual practicing the discipline. Yes, there are schools that cater to the military and accommodate a military schedule. My brother and his friends chuckle at the quality of education vs the schools that were actually trying to prepare them to be practice a discipline. Compared to checking a box for promotional boards. My brother has also laughed about needing to go back retake his entire bachelors if he wanted to engineer. Yeah he has two degrees in it, and they helped inform his piloting reflexes. But he hasn't done any engineering in his entire career as a pilot, nor will he.
Yeah I have a marine friend getting a phd, but he's a linguist & teaches at the...DLI? So it's in his discipline.
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More than just training for wizards, the real force multiplier for the White Council would be to form and maintain a dedicated team of soldiers who train alongside the wardens using combined arms tactics. A wizard firing a rifle isn't putting up a shield or launching fireballs; there's an opportunity cost to it. What they really need is a minion with a machine gun laying down suppressing fire so that the wizard can line up the big 'boom' - basically, dungeons & dragons tactics with a SAW instead of a broadsword.
Heck, this is more or less exactly what Harry does with his squads - everybody has a dedicated role that they support each other with. The wardens would be much more effective if they used the same tactics instead of just sending wizards off by themselves.
The problems is that while this would physically be a world-beating force, it is wholly dependent on trusting in the loyalty of a bunch of vanilla mortals who would suddenly gain insights into the strengths and vulnerabilities of the wizards (of which there are many). That's already hard enough with wizards who have a vested interest in banding together - a regular mortal who develops a grudge against the warden has a lot less binding them to the council than any wizard would.
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Most pilots have STEM degrees going in. For AF it's pretty much impossible to become a pilot otherwise.
I'd double check on the people getting graduate degrees. By brother and most of his friends have their masters in engineering management. They're not actual practicing the discipline. Yes, there are schools that cater to the military and accommodate a military schedule. My brother and his friends chuckle at the quality of education vs the schools that were actually trying to prepare them to be practice a discipline. Compared to checking a box for promotional boards. My brother has also laughed about needing to go back retake his entire bachelors if he wanted to engineer. Yeah he has two degrees in it, and they helped inform his piloting reflexes. But he hasn't done any engineering in his entire career as a pilot, nor will he.
Yeah I have a marine friend getting a phd, but he's a linguist & teaches at the...DLI? So it's in his discipline.
Whether or not its a practicing discipline is utterly irrelevant. Having the time to do two separate jobs at the same time is not the same thing as having a level of competence in more than one thing. A wizard does not have to be a Navy Seal in order to be usefully competent with a weapon. Clearly this is the case, because Dresden spends basically no time perfecting his skills but finds guns highly useful. The notion that someone could not be an expert in more than one thing, especially with a lifespan in centuries, is self-evidently absurd. Were not even talking about leaning entire professions here, but rather simply additional skills. I'm sorry but this line of reasoning is as abjectly ridiculous as saying a Doctor could not take a martial arts course. Or that Murphy could not learn martial arts on the side of her police job.
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More than just training for wizards, the real force multiplier for the White Council would be to form and maintain a dedicated team of soldiers who train alongside the wardens using combined arms tactics. A wizard firing a rifle isn't putting up a shield or launching fireballs; there's an opportunity cost to it. What they really need is a minion with a machine gun laying down suppressing fire so that the wizard can line up the big 'boom' - basically, dungeons & dragons tactics with a SAW instead of a broadsword.
Heck, this is more or less exactly what Harry does with his squads - everybody has a dedicated role that they support each other with. The wardens would be much more effective if they used the same tactics instead of just sending wizards off by themselves.
The problems is that while this would physically be a world-beating force, it is wholly dependent on trusting in the loyalty of a bunch of vanilla mortals who would suddenly gain insights into the strengths and vulnerabilities of the wizards (of which there are many). That's already hard enough with wizards who have a vested interest in banding together - a regular mortal who develops a grudge against the warden has a lot less binding them to the council than any wizard would.
Exactly. In a way, they were doing it with their alliances with the Venatori and the Fellowship. But that was the limit. I don't know if Morgan's attitude (TC, after hearing about Kirby's death) was an exception or the rule, but he seemed to have a moral objection to bringing in normals in a supernatural fight.
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Nah, Harry did a lot of work in Metal (force rings, shield bracelet, bear belt buckle, svartalf Summoning circle, lighting chain). He even laments in SG that he'd not yet had the time or money to rebuild his metalcrafting capabilities, which is why he moved some of his standard enchantments to his staff. But have you ever tried to carry around a 2"x6' staff made of steel? Or even a 1"x18" rod? Not going to be winning any footraces carrying those. Wood is traditional, is far easier to work in general, and makes a far lighter final product. Also, if a wooden blasting rod explodes from being overloaded (like in Changes) its going to do less damage to it's wielder than a metal rod exploding (with or without molten shrapnel).
True, but he could add a tip to each end of the staff - perhaps something out of that silvery stuff the Sidhe use, making it "legal" to carry around Mab - which makes his staff a bit more versatile. In fact, come to think of it... he could have a snap-on steel attachment to cut through Fae enchantments?
Has the idea of enchanting a gun itself to be a staff- or blasting-rod-like item come up in this thread? It could be one of those polymer material guns to avoid the iron in faery problem. There's actually two bonuses here: he runs out of bullets, he starts throwing magic through it, or if he starts with magic, he can resort to bullets. Each clip could be imbued with an energy spell, refreshing himself in prolonged battles while replacing the bullets.
Could even have a "don't look here" compulsion added to it so that it wouldn't be noticed ordinarily..
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We know that Gard has done Magic bullets, and we knwo that Harry is slowly getting over his fear of modern guns jamming and whatnot. Im really hoping he enchants that old-school rifle Harry got in CD; it was described as having the same security blanket aspect that the staff does, namely being a heavy piece of Mass that you can bash things with. And it's of a vintage that he shouldnt fear too much (That fear alone is likely enough to make it legitimately dangerous, given how it can effect a wizards magic and murphionic field)
EDIT: OOOh, Found a direct WOJ on this topic:
The 'Harry screws up guns' thing hasn't been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it's something JB has decided to let go to dust. First away, if Harry's disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work? Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking...
On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car. Proximity has a lot to do with it, too. Harry's actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot. In fact, the gun is small enough that it's actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).
The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress--and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.
And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware. Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient. :)
The rules aren't changing. The proper circumstances just haven't all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.
Jim
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I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them. They are there to make the plot work. Let me give some examples:
1 - Guns: Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun. Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice. All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech. Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry. So automatic weapons should be completely available to him. Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem. I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.
2 - Phones: Okay he kills cell phones, but I am more interested in his interference with Landlines. In the earlier stories in particular, this was a problem. Now if he was smart he would have had an old style rotary dial desk phone. Technology perfected in the 1920s. Pulse dialing still works today. Now the problem might be on the other end of the line...but the standard for cable length in the US Outside Plant in a Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC and given this is Chicago this is now AT&T formerly SBC formerly Ameritech) is 12,000 ft or about 2.5 miles. The tech used is older than in cell phone - which Harry does not blow up walking down the street. So, it seems to me that impacting tech 2.5 miles away when you are not impacting tech in the next room seems dubious. The kind of patch cord switch that is used in Edinburgh is a much trickier proposition. The allocation of functions that worked in the days of patch cords is not true today and without very special arrangements would be greatly problematic. The loss plan and echo cancellation and where it happens has moved. It would make this very old fashioned model a problem for network operations. The same could be said with a stepper motor based switch, but I think there are one or 2 of those still in active use.
3 - Computers: Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS? Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS. That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet! How so? There are 4 problems. One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer. All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap. The first is pretty easy. Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air. For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor. The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago. He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer. The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets. This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap. Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key). Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap. And poof Harry has a computer.
All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.
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I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them. They are there to make the plot work. Let me give some examples:
1 - Guns: Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun. Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice. All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech. Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry. So automatic weapons should be completely available to him. Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem. I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.
2 - Phones: Okay he kills cell phones, but I am more interested in his interference with Landlines. In the earlier stories in particular, this was a problem. Now if he was smart he would have had an old style rotary dial desk phone. Technology perfected in the 1920s. Pulse dialing still works today. Now the problem might be on the other end of the line...but the standard for cable length in the US Outside Plant in a Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC and given this is Chicago this is now AT&T formerly SBC formerly Ameritech) is 12,000 ft or about 2.5 miles. The tech used is older than in cell phone - which Harry does not blow up walking down the street. So, it seems to me that impacting tech 2.5 miles away when you are not impacting tech in the next room seems dubious. The kind of patch cord switch that is used in Edinburgh is a much trickier proposition. The allocation of functions that worked in the days of patch cords is not true today and without very special arrangements would be greatly problematic. The loss plan and echo cancellation and where it happens has moved. It would make this very old fashioned model a problem for network operations. The same could be said with a stepper motor based switch, but I think there are one or 2 of those still in active use.
3 - Computers: Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS? Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS. That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet! How so? There are 4 problems. One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer. All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap. The first is pretty easy. Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air. For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor. The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago. He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer. The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets. This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap. Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key). Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap. And poof Harry has a computer.
All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.
The WWII bar for functioning tech is mostly applicable to automobiles iirc, and the WOJ above explains some of the various situational differences between that and a gun.
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In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it. Read my section on phones.
See the whole notion that Jim puts forth makes no sense for something like the scene in the Van in PG. Here is Harry - in a panic - tossing around magic...and the van works perfectly. And he is inside the van directly above the transmission. Why didn't it lock up?
So my view of this again is don't examine it too closely...there is a whole lotta...it is this way to make this story work.
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In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it. Read my section on phones. Because he is inside his car.
The WORLD exists to make the stories work, that doesnt mean the rules arent consistent.
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It's actually a bit of a misnomer to call revolvers 'simple' than autos (particularly modern semi-autos). They're definitely simpler to operate, but they are mechanically much, much more complex than a modern striker-fired handgun like a Glock (which Ramirez uses without problems). The average person can detail strip a Glock into all its component parts, clean them, and then re-assemble them in well under an hour. I would not ever recommend attempting to do the same thing with a revolver.
It's the modern materials and manufacturing methods which are more complex than in the past; mechanically, modern guns are far more robust than older ones.
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I wanna see a blunderbuss, just because. Pretty much any old school wizard could have one.
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I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them. They are there to make the plot work. Let me give some examples:
1 - Guns: Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun. Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice. All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech. Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry. So automatic weapons should be completely available to him. Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem. I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.
All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.
You left out the BAR and the StG 44 (or Sturmgewehr). However, in Cold Days Thomas pointed out that he didn't offer Harry the use of an automatic weapon because Harry is a lousy shot. It takes practice to fire these things accurately. I've fired the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun and a few other WW2 era guns. That thing wants to jump out of your hands, though there are some other weapons of that time period that are much easier to keep on target. However, I'm getting off topic here. The fact is Harry doesn't have a lot of time to practice new skills. For me, that's the only reasonable explanation for Harry not becoming a gun expert.
But I'm not dismissing your main point. I never really liked the idea that magic messes up modern technology. It seems too easy a fix to keep modern tech from interfering with or overpowering a story. I think both Ben Aaronovitch in his Rivers of London books and Benedict Jacka in his Alex Verus series have found different ways of not having modern technology interfere with the magical world. I especially like that British Light Council in the Alex Verus books uses non-magical mercenaries so the magic users can do their own thing.
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In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it. Read my section on phones.
See the whole notion that Jim puts forth makes no sense for something like the scene in the Van in PG. Here is Harry - in a panic - tossing around magic...and the van works perfectly. And he is inside the van directly above the transmission. Why didn't it lock up?
So my view of this again is don't examine it too closely...there is a whole lotta...it is this way to make this story work.
The rules are not readily apparent without thought, but they exist and while they are mutable, they haven't changed yet in the pages of the stories that I've noticed. This isn't odd to me at all. You have to examine the evidence, both book and woj deductively. uhh let me try it this way.
Wizards effect technology because they are conflicted. that confliction this is what causes machines to break down. Said effect is actually wizards effecting probability, the randomness of luck.
It's contained to machines as even top wizards don't usually put off enough magical aura to do what say, meeting with mother winter would do, but the transfer can happen. Also because they are 'spirit callers' not necessarily of previously living beings but the spirits of the elements themselves, like in GS the ghosts can effect the van but not people. they aren't supposed to, and without manifesting(whih is bad juju) they can't. Wizards can effect people and obects inside others aura's because wizards are mortal, they possess the free will to do so.(technically, ghost can screw with the nautral order too, but notice if either a wizard or ghost do so they tend to go kooky for cosmic reasons)
Now notice when said conflict or belief of conflict fails to come into play, is when they aren't conflicted! guns pointed at Dresden misfire all the time. Dresden himself enjoys blowing out technology, that's prime reason why anything around him would go bonkers, deep down he wants it somewhere. Notice now that NEVER not once has Harry's gun ever misfired? He doesn't want it to! it's very clear cut to me but I might not have explained well enough. however I take great offence to the statement no single theory can explain it, mine can... if only I could explain it lol. Oh, and yea... that's totally an underestimation of jims ability to say they're that way to make the story work. of course they're there to make the story work. But not as silly plot devices that go one way or another depending on what makes the current story. the over arcing story.
I use this connection between magic and random luck to make my own connection between the 3rd fate, the chooser, Nemesis who meets out punishment and literal fortuna, luck. it's all the same thing. Before she was ousted she controlled magic to decide the fate of everything as much as MW destroys and MS is the source of creation.
*Notice milk stopped spoiling and skin conditions desisted as part of the magical effect, right around when people started to learn more about the world and contributing those things to reality based effects instead of bad luck or 'little demons', Ahhh think about it, milk was left out to ward away bad luck! It twas the focus to to be used against it, a talisman if you were. An what happened because of it? Random 'badluck' from wizarding aura's began to accumulate in milk causing it to spoil!
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You left out the BAR and the StG 44 (or Sturmgewehr). However, in Cold Days Thomas pointed out that he didn't offer Harry the use of an automatic weapon because Harry is a lousy shot. It takes practice to fire these things accurately. I've fired the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun and a few other WW2 era guns. That thing wants to jump out of your hands, though there are some other weapons of that time period that are much easier to keep on target. However, I'm getting off topic here. The fact is Harry doesn't have a lot of time to practice new skills. For me, that's the only reasonable explanation for Harry not becoming a gun expert.
But I'm not dismissing your main point. I never really liked the idea that magic messes up modern technology. It seems too easy a fix to keep modern tech from interfering with or overpowering a story. I think both Ben Aaronovitch in his Rivers of London books and Benedict Jacka in his Alex Verus series have found different ways of not having modern technology interfere with the magical world. I especially like that British Light Council in the Alex Verus books uses non-magical mercenaries so the magic users can do their own thing.
I dont have any objections really to this, just want to add something.
It really depends on which full auto weapon he uses. Not to mention that for most tactical situations he would just want to use semi-auto. That being said, I have fired the M-16/M4 extensively in burst/auto. They are easy to control. Within 50m, you can pop a man sized target with ease. The mistake many people make when using full auto is they try to keep using the sights. The very first time I ever got to use the M-16 in burst, I found that I could repeated strike the 50m target over and over by aiming over the sights and just using my instincts to fire. I went through about 400 rounds in the space of about 20min and it was a real eye opener as to how useful and easy to use full auto can be in some circumstances: ie split second moving or simply brief targets at close range with little opportunity to aim. Also making a weapon smoke is fun :)
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3 - Computers: Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS? Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS. That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet! How so? There are 4 problems. One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer. All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap. The first is pretty easy. Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air. For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor. The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago. He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer. The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets. This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap. Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key). Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap. And poof Harry has a computer.
All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.
You don't really have to make the computer itself survive the Murphyonic field, just the user interfaces: keyboard, mouse, monitor, camera, mike, speakers. Put them in a circle (except for the keyboard and maybe a mouse, but they are probably not that easily destroyed and cheap to replace), have some strongly insulated cables running to your friend's place a couple of houses down and use his computer with internetconnection.
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What Harry really needs (or doesn't, as the books have demonstrated that guns absolutely do not suffer from the the murphonic field) is a anti-murphonic field bracelet. It will be a plot device defeating plot device.
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What Harry really needs (or doesn't, as the books have demonstrated that guns absolutely do not suffer from the the murphonic field) is a anti-murphonic field bracelet. It will be a plot device defeating plot device.
"Absolutely," huh?
Storm Front:
There
were a number of sharp clicking sounds. The automatic had
jammed. Hell, with this much magic flying around the room, we
were all lucky the thing hadn't just exploded.
Grave Peril:
One of the security men’s guns suddenly
jumped and twisted, and he cried out in pain, reeling back, blood
streaming from his hands and the ruins of his face.
Technology doesn’t tend to work too well around magic.
Including the feeding mechanisms of automatic weapons.
Two of the guns jammed before dumping their full clips, and the
others fell silent, spent.
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"Absolutely," huh?
Storm Front:
Grave Peril:
He's talking about Harrys gun never jamming, or his allies. But Harry's not conflicted when he uses a gun, point of fact, murder takes a good deal of willpower/intent, so why would he be conflicted when choosing to pull the trigger anyway? probably never read the woj where jim talks about the narrator(harry) not having all the pieces on this one.
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"Absolutely," huh?
Storm Front:
Grave Peril:
For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.
Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc. And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.
Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....
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For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.
Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc. And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.
Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....
Not really, Harry explains also that weaker wizards effect things less and it's specifically known Carlos is weaker then Dresden in raw power. please explain the 'ignoring that his is Harry's assumption paragraph...' so I can refute it too.
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For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.
First, pet peeve: It's "all intents and purposes."
Second, "all intents and purposes" is not "absolutely not." We have direct, observed evidence that magic does, in fact, cause firearms to jam.
Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc.
Cripes I hate this "argument." "Harry doesn't know everything" is not license to disregard when he's talking about the things he observes directly and knows what he's talking about.
Harry knows how magic works. He can be relied upon to be right about the things he is observing actually happening. Just because it inconveniences your argument doesn't make it not true.
Seriously, this is like when certain people were arguing that the Red Court War wasn't even actually happening.
And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.
Right, because Murphy knows more about how magic works than Dresden.
Which is why, I presume, she has to ask Harry, multiple times every book, how magic works.
Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....
Carlos's glock is a semiautomatic. Not an automatic.
Yes, I know there are glocks that can be automatic, but Carlos's does not appear to be one of them.
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First, pet peeve: It's "all intents and purposes."
Second, "all intents and purposes" is not "absolutely not." We have direct, observed evidence that magic does, in fact, cause firearms to jam.
Cripes I hate this "argument." "Harry doesn't know everything" is not license to disregard when he's talking about the things he observes directly and knows what he's talking about.
Harry knows how magic works. He can be relied upon to be right about the things he is observing actually happening. Just because it inconveniences your argument doesn't make it not true.
Seriously, this is like when certain people were arguing that the Red Court War wasn't even actually happening.
Right, because Murphy knows more about how magic works than Dresden.
Which is why, I presume, she has to ask Harry, multiple times every book, how magic works.
Carlos's glock is a semiautomatic. Not an automatic.
Yes, I know there are glocks that can be automatic, but Carlos's does not appear to be one of them.
For all intents and purposes its true. Two occurrences to the contrary do not make a rule. I could cite literally dozens of firefights int he DV where nothing of the sort happened. This despite Dresden flinging all sorts of magic all over the place at the same time. The point here is whether the reliability problem is sufficiently large to matter, and the battles of the book make it clear that it is not.
As was stated earlier, Dresden does not have completely accurate knowledge of this. Per WOJ, actually. So its fair to say that Dresdens perspective and opinion here is not fully reliable. So in point of fact, it is license to assume Dresden doesnt know what he is talking about, isnt it?
You do realize that the mechanical difference between fully auto and semi auto is trivial right? It would almost certainly make no difference.
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Just because something doesn't happen every book does not mean it's not true.
We see magic interfering with technology all the time, including things with no electronics. That includes guns.
Why would it not include guns? What makes guns special compared to, say, an internal combustion engine, that Harry's magic would reliably foul up one, but is "absolutely not" a problem for the other?
Harry's observations are generally spot on, and I see no reason to doubt his assessment here, except that it's inconvenient for your idea of everyone packing state-of-the-art weapons.
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Just because something doesn't happen every book does not mean it's not true.
We see magic interfering with technology all the time, including things with no electronics. That includes guns.
Why would it not include guns? What makes guns special compared to, say, an internal combustion engine, that Harry's magic would reliably foul up one, but is "absolutely not" a problem for the other?
Harry's observations are generally spot on, and I see no reason to doubt his assessment here, except that it's inconvenient for your idea of everyone packing state-of-the-art weapons.
Because it does not happen in the overwhelming majority of cases that is why. And we have other direct statements in the book that guns are very much primary weapons in the DV.
We have per WOJ that Harry's understanding of this is incomplete and or flawed. Dont know how much simpler it could be really. Makes alot of sense considering that despite Harry's constant suspicion of technological failure, it very often seems to not matter. Take his fear of hospitals for example, and then the fact that it didnt seem to do anything during all his visits to one. Or the fact that 9.5 time out of ten every gun in the DV seems to work just fine. Sure is awfully consistently a non-issue.
Dresden sure had no problems with a lever action rifle. And they are not what you would call mechanically simple. Especially compared to semi-auto pistols or assault rifles.
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Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?
Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?
That it's only happened a couple times on the page does not mean it's not something that happens.
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Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?
Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?
That it's only happened a couple times on the page does not mean it's not something that happens.
Read back a bit, it was quoted already IIRC. Jim stated that the rules are not changing, but the reason Harry's assumptions about magical interference dont work out alot is because he doesnt fully understand the physics of it.
Cars and guns are not on the same level. A car is objectively far more complex. Even just the engine.
Statistically, is matter of fact that in the Dresden files, guns work without fail an order of magnitude more often than they fail based on all the instances we have seen in the books. Its not that it never ever ever happens, but that it happens so rarely it basically doesn't matter much.
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Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?
Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?
This I can answer, there's a specific WOJ where he spells out the various differences. They are actually affected MORE than cars (despite being of comparable vintages), due to relative size, aura interaction, and the typical emotional state of a gunman vs a driver in the moment. Also, alas, he did say there are factors involved which harry is unaware because his understanding of Magic is not Perfect.
The 'Harry screws up guns' thing hasn't been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it's something JB has decided to let go to dust. First away, if Harry's disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work? Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking...
On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car. Proximity has a lot to do with it, too. Harry's actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot. In fact, the gun is small enough that it's actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).
The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress--and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.
And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware. Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient. :)
The rules aren't changing. The proper circumstances just haven't all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.
Jim
Read back a bit, it was quoted already IIRC. Jim stated that the rules are not changing, but the reason Harry's assumptions about magical interference dont work out alot is because he doesnt fully understand the physics of it.
Cars and guns are not on the same level. A car is objectively far more complex. Even just the engine.
Statistically, is matter of fact that in the Dresden files, guns work without fail an order of magnitude more often than they fail based on all the instances we have seen in the books. Its not that it never ever ever happens, but that it happens so rarely it basically doesn't matter much.
You are lookign at the right WOJ, but I think it's directly contradicting several of your conclusions
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So if I'm reading Quantus's post right, Shift8, you're using a WOJ where Jim is explicitly talking about why Harry's magical field does affect guns, to argue that Harry's magical field does not affect guns?
He is not saying Harry is wrong. He is saying there are other factors. He is saying, with direct and explicit certainty, that guns can be and will be fouled up by magic, just that it doesn't happen as often because of particular circumstances.
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So if I'm reading Quantus's post right, Shift8, you're using a WOJ where Jim is explicitly talking about why Harry's magical field does affect guns, to argue that Harry's magical field does not affect guns?
He is not saying Harry is wrong. He is saying there are other factors. He is saying, with direct and explicit certainty, that guns can be and will be fouled up by magic, just that it doesn't happen as often because of particular circumstances.
Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.
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Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.
I think the last sentence of the WOJ is very specifically refuting that assertion, which was part of the forum post that sparked the WOj in the first place. It's not that it isnt a real concern, it is just that circumstances in the stories have not yet aligned to have it appear on stage yet.
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Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.
Jim is saying, directly, that a wizard handling a gun in his hand and using it is likely to cause a malfunction. He lays out several reasons for that.
If I'm not mistaken, you're still arguing that wizards (i.e., the type of person Jim's WOJ says would have trouble with guns) should use guns (i.e., the items that Jim's WOJ just said wizards would have trouble with).
Do you not see the issue with your assertion here?
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I think the last sentence of the WOJ is very specifically refuting that assertion, which was part of the forum post that sparked the WOj in the first place. It's not that it isnt a real concern, it is just that circumstances in the stories have not yet aligned to have it appear on stage yet.
Which is kind of my point really. If those circumstances haven't aligned, then they must be so specific as to not be much a a problem in general.
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Which is kind of my point really. If those circumstances haven't aligned, then they must be so specific as to not be much a a problem in general.
Because Harry's personal experiences are Universal? The hazards of Radiation Poisoning have not come up in my own personal experience, but that doesnt mean they arent still an entirely valid a concern, one I should absolutely acknowledge if it /does/ become relevant.
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Because Harry's personal experiences are Universal?
Wait, I thought he was an unreliable narrator, though?
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Jim is saying, directly, that a wizard handling a gun in his hand and using it is likely to cause a malfunction. He lays out several reasons for that.
If I'm not mistaken, you're still arguing that wizards (i.e., the type of person Jim's WOJ says would have trouble with guns) should use guns (i.e., the items that Jim's WOJ just said wizards would have trouble with).
Do you not see the issue with your assertion here?
No, because Jim is just clarifying that the direct factors of the effect differ based on circumstances. But then then goes on to say that the reason it appears to have "gone away" is because Harry's impression of its function is incomplete. In the context of the books, it clearly shows that he hugely over estimates the effect and how it works based on the fact that is seems like the effect doesnt do much most of the time. Hence why the stars havent aligned as it were.
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Not to beat a dead horse, but waaay back when I responded to Namkas I had an alternative theory that would completely cover said holes you perceive.
*horse ain't dead until you acknowledge the body. It was never found.
The rules are not readily apparent without thought, but they exist and while they are mutable, they haven't changed yet in the pages of the stories that I've noticed. This isn't odd to me at all. You have to examine the evidence, both book and woj deductively. uhh let me try it this way.
Wizards effect technology because they are conflicted. that confliction this is what causes machines to break down. Said effect is actually wizards effecting probability, the randomness of luck.
It's contained to machines as even top wizards don't usually put off enough magical aura to do what say, meeting with mother winter would do, but the transfer can happen. Also because they are 'spirit callers' not necessarily of previously living beings but the spirits of the elements themselves, like in GS the ghosts can effect the van but not people. they aren't supposed to, and without manifesting(whih is bad juju) they can't. Wizards can effect people and obects inside others aura's because wizards are mortal, they possess the free will to do so.(technically, ghost can screw with the nautral order too, but notice if either a wizard or ghost do so they tend to go kooky for cosmic reasons)
Now notice when said conflict or belief of conflict fails to come into play, is when they aren't conflicted! guns pointed at Dresden misfire all the time. Dresden himself enjoys blowing out technology, that's prime reason why anything around him would go bonkers, deep down he wants it somewhere. Notice now that NEVER not once has Harry's gun ever misfired? He doesn't want it to! it's very clear cut to me but I might not have explained well enough. however I take great offence to the statement no single theory can explain it, mine can... if only I could explain it lol. Oh, and yea... that's totally an underestimation of jims ability to say they're that way to make the story work. of course they're there to make the story work. But not as silly plot devices that go one way or another depending on what makes the current story. the over arcing story.
I use this connection between magic and random luck to make my own connection between the 3rd fate, the chooser, Nemesis who meets out punishment and literal fortuna, luck. it's all the same thing. Before she was ousted she controlled magic to decide the fate of everything as much as MW destroys and MS is the source of creation.
*Notice milk stopped spoiling and skin conditions desisted as part of the magical effect, right around when people started to learn more about the world and contributing those things to reality based effects instead of bad luck or 'little demons', Ahhh think about it, milk was left out to ward away bad luck! It twas the focus to to be used against it, a talisman if you were. An what happened because of it? Random 'badluck' from wizarding aura's began to accumulate in milk causing it to spoil!
discuss :)
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Because Harry's personal experiences are Universal? The hazards of Radiation Poisoning have not come up in my own personal experience, but that doesnt mean they arent still an entirely valid a concern, one I should absolutely acknowledge if it /does/ become relevant.
Not at all. Harry's use of guns is quite clearly one of many many many many examples of the effect not doing anything. Hence why the wardens use them, Vampires them, Fae use them etc. And strangely the just keep on working even when 9000 people are flinging every sort of magic possible at the same time. It is very much the opposite of his singular use.
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Not at all. Harry's use of guns is quite clearly one of many many many many examples of the effect not doing anything. Hence why the wardens use them, Vampires them, Fae use them etc. And strangely the just keep on working even when 9000 people are flinging every sort of magic possible at the same time. It is very much the opposite of his singular use.
Vampires and Fae dont have a murphionic field, that's only mortal practioners of sufficient Power. And the only Wardens that use guns are the youngest and most inexperienced of them.
And STILL, just because it has not been plot relevant enough to have appeared on stage, doesnt prove that Harry's experience isnt anything less than an extreme outlier.
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Not at all. Harry's use of guns is quite clearly one of many many many many examples of the effect not doing anything. Hence why the wardens use them, Vampires them, Fae use them etc. And strangely the just keep on working even when 9000 people are flinging every sort of magic possible at the same time. It is very much the opposite of his singular use.
Harry never uses automatic weapons. To the best of my knowledge, he's used revolvers, a double-barrel shotgun and a lever-action rifle, each of which have far fewer moving parts -- and little to no "automatic" parts.
To my knowledge, we've never seen a wizard firing an automatic weapon. Even the young wardens appear to be using, at most, semiautomatic pistols.
The RPG books put a qualitative assessment on it, with a table on hexing. The higher the number, the more power a wizard has to put into the spell to deliberately hex things. "Conceptually complicated, more modern guns (automatic weapons, etc.)" are listed as 4, in the same category as older cars from the last few decades (like Harry's car) and "The exciting technologies 1967 had to offer."
At 5 are "Some smaller firearms may be affected, though conceptually simple ones still work pretty well, at least for a time."
It's not till 7 -- and the chart tops out at 8+ -- that you get to, "Simple guns may stop working at inopportune moments."
For further reference's sake, Harry's power level circa Storm Front has a base of 5, his rote Fuego spell is a power of 4, and he only gets stronger from there.
So that lays it out pretty neatly. The kinds of guns that Harry tends to use most often, revolvers, require more magic being flung around to malfunction, while more complex, modern, automatic weapons, are nearly half-way down the scale -- and they're right under the threshold of his base power.
(Incidentally, when my players found out about that chart, it made any kind of encounter with mortal hired guns trivial, since they could just cast a zone-wide hex to wreck their weapons. It also made some encounters hilarious, such as when a wizard took out a mortal driver by hexing his airbag into going off.)
Whenever fully-automatic weapons are used, they're always in the hands of non-wizards and they are usually a considerable distance away from the wizards they're firing at. And out of the four instances I can think of where fully-automatic weapons are used in the middle of wizard throw-downs (Storm Front, Grave Peril, White Night, Turn Coat), they're specifically noted as jamming in two of them.
As for Changes, the automatic weapons we see there are in the hands of the mercenaries, who are all up on the walls and not down where people are using magic... and out of those 200+ hired guns, their impact on the battlefield is a grand total of "wound an apprentice with a stray shot, while the wizardly targets shrug off every bullet harmlessly, then literally kill every single one of us with a wave of his hand."
You're right that we don't see wizards having trouble using automatic weapons. But the reason jams don't happen isn't because it isn't a problem. It doesn't happen because everyone who it would affect is avoiding the circumstances that would create the problem.
Nobody in my family has had a skydiving accident. This isn't because there aren't real risks inherent in skydiving, but because none of us are crazy enough to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
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Harry never uses automatic weapons. To the best of my knowledge, he's used revolvers, a double-barrel shotgun and a lever-action rifle, each of which have far fewer moving parts -- and little to no "automatic" parts.
To my knowledge, we've never seen a wizard firing an automatic weapon. Even the young wardens appear to be using, at most, semiautomatic pistols.
The RPG books put a qualitative assessment on it, with a table on hexing. The higher the number, the more power a wizard has to put into the spell to deliberately hex things. "Conceptually complicated, more modern guns (automatic weapons, etc.)" are listed as 4, in the same category as older cars from the last few decades (like Harry's car) and "The exciting technologies 1967 had to offer."
At 5 are "Some smaller firearms may be affected, though conceptually simple ones still work pretty well, at least for a time."
It's not till 7 -- and the chart tops out at 8+ -- that you get to, "Simple guns may stop working at inopportune moments."
For further reference's sake, Harry's power level circa Storm Front has a base of 5, his rote Fuego spell is a power of 4, and he only gets stronger from there.
So that lays it out pretty neatly. The kinds of guns that Harry tends to use most often, revolvers, require more magic being flung around to malfunction, while more complex, modern, automatic weapons, are nearly half-way down the scale -- and they're right under the threshold of his base power.
(Incidentally, when my players found out about that chart, it made any kind of encounter with mortal hired guns trivial, since they could just cast a zone-wide hex to wreck their weapons. It also made some encounters hilarious, such as when a wizard took out a mortal driver by hexing his airbag into going off.)
Whenever fully-automatic weapons are used, they're always in the hands of non-wizards and they are usually a considerable distance away from the wizards they're firing at. And out of the four instances I can think of where fully-automatic weapons are used in the middle of wizard throw-downs (Storm Front, Grave Peril, White Night, Turn Coat), they're specifically noted as jamming in two of them.
As for Changes, the automatic weapons we see there are in the hands of the mercenaries, who are all up on the walls and not down where people are using magic... and out of those 200+ hired guns, their impact on the battlefield is a grand total of "wound an apprentice with a stray shot, while the wizardly targets shrug off every bullet harmlessly, then literally kill every single one of us with a wave of his hand."
You're right that we don't see wizards having trouble using automatic weapons. But the reason jams don't happen isn't because it isn't a problem. It doesn't happen because everyone who it would affect is avoiding the circumstances that would create the problem.
Nobody in my family has had a skydiving accident. This isn't because there aren't real risks inherent in skydiving, but because none of us are crazy enough to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
Lever actions are extremely complex relatively speaking. And again, fully automatic weapons are meaninglessly more complex. Feel free to look this up. Its not like full auto weapons have some ultra complicated mechanism for this. And additionally, you would rarely use full auto anyhow in most situations.
I could care less about the RPG, thanks.
It has been suggested already that the real reason the old wizards dont use the guns as much is they they are just that, old backwards farts. If wizard interference was that good that they could just boink out all the guns, they would do this every single fight. Except they dont.
More to the point, the level of complexity between a revolver and a automatic pistol is tiny really. Unless you think springs are complicated.
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Before another thread gets locked down, please take deep breaths and review the
Forum Rules. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html)
Keep your arguments to I/me statements, and fact based citations.
Blaze, as Mod
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Let's try breaking this down to the numbers.
Any gun, regardless of its cycling mechanism, has a chance of jamming with any given shot. This is true in the real world on a normal day. Even with a double-barreled shotgun -- which doesn't have a cycling mechanism -- wear and tear and dirt in the barrel can make an empty shell stick when you go to reload. At the end of a long day of trap shooting, I've seen it happen.
Therefore, the more often a gun is fired, the more opportunities it will have to fail. Additionally, the more a gun is fired, the more likely subsequent shots will jam or otherwise fail, thanks to the accumulation of powder, oil and other grime.
By that metric alone -- totally ignoring the hexing field -- fully-automatic, high-capacity weapons are more likely to jam in the same time frame as single-shot revolvers, shotguns or rifles.
Now let's say, for the sake of argument, that regardless of the gun's cycling mechanism Harry's ambient hexing field creates a flat 5% chance of jamming on any given shot.
Harry's 6-shot revolver, given a 1/20 chance of failure, can be generally relied upon to get off its shots without malfunctioning.
A 30-round assault rifle, given the same 1/20 chance of failure, is much more likely to jam before it gets through all its shots.
To go a little further, if Harry goes through a reload and empties his revolver a second time, he's still looking at pretty good odds of going without a jam.
Harry could certainly fire his revolver 30 times, but he's very unlikely to. If he's fighting something that can soak 30 shots from a .44 (be it one really tough creature or 30 individuals), he's honestly better off running away. Hell, if he fires six shots into something and it hasn't gone down yet, chances are the other 24 aren't going to make much more of a difference.
If he reloads the assault rifle and empties it again, then statistically speaking, he's looking at three jams.
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How about this.
Harry's magic is tied up in his belief of what reality should be.
Harry believes revolvers are older, more reliable technology, and thus are less susceptible to his wizard's aura.
Harry believes automatics are newer, less reliable technology.
Automatic weapons fail around him more frequently than his revolver.
Actual complexity and failure rates may matter, but what really matters is what Harry believes about his magic. And thus, his natural hex is more likely to cause failures in the automatics who's technology he is suspicious of.
And even if that understanding is incomplete (http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm), it explains the body of evidence well enough that I'm satisfied.
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How about this.
Harry's magic is tied up in his belief of what reality should be.
Harry believes revolvers are older, more reliable technology, and thus are less susceptible to his wizard's aura.
Harry believes automatics are newer, less reliable technology.
Automatic weapons fail around him more frequently than his revolver.
Actual complexity and failure rates may matter, but what really matters is what Harry believes about his magic. And thus, his natural hex is more likely to cause failures in the automatics who's technology he is suspicious of.
That's probably a part of it, but it doesn't explain very well how that belief came into existence in the first place. It's not something Harry alone believes, it's shared by all wizards as far as we know.
We'd have to look at instances of Harry interacting (badly or otherwise) with technology when he isn't aware of it. Cell phones in peoples's pockets malfunctioning when he had no idea there was a cell phone or something like that.
ETA and btw: Butters is using the Murphyonic field theory in Day One to sense the final attack. It caused a conflict with the electromagnetic field in his ear plugs or something. He theorized that magic is something similar to electromagnetic waves that disturbs normal electromagnetic fields. It reminded me of the problems I sometimes have with my WLAN: too many interferences from neighbor's WLANs and my own electronic stuff.
And even if that understanding is incomplete (http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm), it explains the body of evidence well enough that I'm satisfied.
Great read. Thanx for the link. :)
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That's probably a part of it, but it doesn't explain very well how that belief came into existence in the first place. It's not something Harry alone believes, it's shared by all wizards as far as we know.
Ok, so are you familiar with Jim's comments about... blah, I'll blanket quote em.
As technology advances, will wizards become marginalized?
It sort of depends on where magic goes. Magic wasn’t always screwing up post WW2 tech. Before WW2 magic had other effects. It sorta changes slowly over time, and about every 3 centuries it rolls over into something else. At one time, instead of magic making machines flip out it made cream go bad. Before that magic made weird molls on your skin and fire would burn slightly different colors when you were around it. I do mention this in Ghost story (in passing). It’s not really aware or something like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who use it.
PR: So, do you, yourself, when you're writing them, do you draw lines in your head between, say, the sort of magic that Harry does and the sort of magic the people in Bayport are capable of? Or is it just an issue of skill and quantity?
JB: Well, it's all a little bit different, but everyone interacts with that kind of energy in a different way. For instance, wizards cause disruptions in technology and other things around them because, you know, people are never all one thing or all the other, people are a conflicted group of weirdos, and so when you have human beings that are using magic, that sort of self-inner conflict, that's one of the side-effects that comes out, that's why they wreck things that are around them. If you're a fairy who's using magic, you're doing the same thing as a human being, but you don't have that cluttered human nature. You can sit around as a fairy and play X-box all you want, you're never going to ruin it, and still be an awesome wizard, but not as Dresden.
Now here's my more detailed theory on how the murpheonic field came to be. Quoted from my theory on black magic. (note: I wrote the below outside of the context of this nit-picky argument about gun mechanisms. I'll try to tie it to that after the quote)
Reality Pushes Back
In other words, if you use your will/mind as an applied force to change reality, reality will exert an equal and opposite force upon your will/mind that could be changing it as well.
My thoughts on this idea of reality pushing back come from multiple inspirations. One of the most poignant is how Harry insists to Lash that if she has been changing him, she pretty much has to have changed in return.xrt#X
Even more fundamental is the nature of the "murpheonic field." Or at least why it exists from my theorizing PoV. As a wizard develops his ability to shape reality according to his will, he is coming into direct conflict with the fact that humanity has been doing a pretty dang good job of defining just exactly how reality is supposed to work, and as a result is accomplishing all these really cool technological things. But because the wizard is a member of humanity, and is breaking these hard and fast "rules" that this cool technology is based off of, his magic interferes with it and makes it likely to fail.
You could even say that the wizard's mind has been warped by his continued use of magic to reshape reality, until the parts of reality that utilize highly specialized physical laws that his magic flies in the face of [I.E. technology] become highly unreliable to him.
Ok, back to gun mechanisms... let see. Another way of framing the above murpheonic theory is that modern mankind has used the Scientific Method to nail down the mechanisms of how stuff works pretty well. But outside the lab, things break down, or have failures. Somehow when the side effect of magic making cream go bad, morphed into the murpheonic field, it manifested into emphasizing the things brake down or have failures aspect of technology, and even though the M1911 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol) was a WW1 service semi-automatic pistol, the fact that it's generally perceived that it has modes of failure that are a part of it's technological advances over Harry's trusty '38 make it susceptible to his murpheonic field.
Here are two anecdotes slightly offset from this discussion but that are relevant.
Compared to me, my step father is a gun nut. He prefers a trusty revolver too, but he doesn't have a problem with an "automatic" so much as a problem with a police force deploying them without sufficient training in how to clear a failure. And he once stopped and showed me the house that was involved in a shoot-out when the local county sheriff's office converted from revolvers to automatics across the force. Several deputies died during that shootout, and he blames it on their not being sufficiently trained in clearing a failure in their automatics.
When I was a soldier, in basic training, they drilled me in clearing my M-16 to the point where we did it in synchronized formation step by step, eyes front until we all in synchrony slanted our weapons and looked down to check that the chamber was empty. Look up and tilt the weapon back to the vertical plane. Release the bolt. *Slam* the entire formation's bolts slide home at once.
Ok second anecdote. As a green beta I once tried to call out referring to the P90 as a carbine in a beta comment. Jim responded with a WALL of text about the P90, carbines, sub-machine guns, and the differences between them. So Jim knows more about guns than me. Although I doubt he's spent as many nights cuddling with an M-16.
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How about this.
Harry's magic is tied up in his belief of what reality should be.
Harry believes revolvers are older, more reliable technology, and thus are less susceptible to his wizard's aura.
Harry believes automatics are newer, less reliable technology.
Automatic weapons fail around him more frequently than his revolver.
Actual complexity and failure rates may matter, but what really matters is what Harry believes about his magic. And thus, his natural hex is more likely to cause failures in the automatics who's technology he is suspicious of.
This is more or less how I've always assumed it works. Harry is conflicted about newer technology because it's not something he doesn't 'get' on a fundamental level. If I lived in the DF universe and knew Harry, I'd suggest Harry try detail stripping & re-assembling a Glock and a revolver, and then see how well each one worked afterwards.
But I don't live in the DF universe, and don't think this really matters much in the story. Unless somebody sits Harry down and points out how much more mechanically complex a revolver is to a modern semi-auto, it's not going to affect Harry. Butters is the person most likely to try experimenting like this, but he doesn't strike me as a gun guy (especially now that he's got a light saber).
Of course, there's always the possibility that once Harry learns how complex revolvers are, they won't work in his presence, either. Actually, scratch that; of course they won't work once Harry learns how complex they are. It's Harry.
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How about this.
Harry's magic is tied up in his belief of what reality should be.
Harry believes revolvers are older, more reliable technology, and thus are less susceptible to his wizard's aura.
Harry believes automatics are newer, less reliable technology.
Automatic weapons fail around him more frequently than his revolver.
Actual complexity and failure rates may matter, but what really matters is what Harry believes about his magic. And thus, his natural hex is more likely to cause failures in the automatics who's technology he is suspicious of.
And even if that understanding is incomplete (http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm), it explains the body of evidence well enough that I'm satisfied.
That's an incredibly generalized idea. It aligns the info we already know quite well, don't get me wrong, excellent organization on it. I just can't see it being the definite answer to anything. With all your inside info your theorizing has suffered with this generalization effect in recent years. Even what you choose to respond to as far as others theories has changed... avoiding heavy or major topical theorizing. Not really fair that, as the main chooser of 'quality theories'.
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Ok, so are you familiar with Jim's comments about... blah, I'll blanket quote em.
Now here's my more detailed theory on how the murpheonic field came to be. Quoted from my theory on black magic. (note: I wrote the below outside of the context of this nit-picky argument about gun mechanisms. I'll try to tie it to that after the quote)
Ok, back to gun mechanisms... let see. Another way of framing the above murpheonic theory is that modern mankind has used the Scientific Method to nail down the mechanisms of how stuff works pretty well. But outside the lab, things break down, or have failures. Somehow when the side effect of magic making cream go bad, morphed into the murpheonic field, it manifested into emphasizing the things brake down or have failures aspect of technology, and even though the M1911 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol) was a WW1 service semi-automatic pistol, the fact that it's generally perceived that it has modes of failure that are a part of it's technological advances over Harry's trusty '38 make it susceptible to his murpheonic field.
Here are two anecdotes slightly offset from this discussion but that are relevant.
Compared to me, my step father is a gun nut. He prefers a trusty revolver too, but he doesn't have a problem with an "automatic" so much as a problem with a police force deploying them without sufficient training in how to clear a failure. And he once stopped and showed me the house that was involved in a shoot-out when the local county sheriff's office converted from revolvers to automatics across the force. Several deputies died during that shootout, and he blames it on their not being sufficiently trained in clearing a failure in their automatics.
When I was a soldier, in basic training, they drilled me in clearing my M-16 to the point where we did it in synchronized formation step by step, eyes front until we all in synchrony slanted our weapons and looked down to check that the chamber was empty. Look up and tilt the weapon back to the vertical plane. Release the bolt. *Slam* the entire formation's bolts slide home at once.
Ok second anecdote. As a green beta I once tried to call out referring to the P90 as a carbine in a beta comment. Jim responded with a WALL of text about the P90, carbines, sub-machine guns, and the differences between them. So Jim knows more about guns than me. Although I doubt he's spent as many nights cuddling with an M-16.
Because magic seems to evolve over time, and how it affects things, do you see the possibility that wizards will use magic to control technology sometime down the road rather than cause it to malfunction? Because that would be awesome.
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That's an incredibly generalized idea. It aligns the info we already know quite well, don't get me wrong, excellent organization on it. I just can't see it being the definite answer to anything. With all your inside info your theorizing has suffered with this generalization effect in recent years. Even what you choose to respond to as far as others theories has changed... avoiding heavy or major topical theorizing. Not really fair that, as the main chooser of 'quality theories'.
Thanks, I'm glad to have contributed to the forum, and I try my best to harvest other contributions before the autodelete monster gets them.
If you have anything positive to generate that you feel is worthy of conservation please point out your efforts to me.
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Thanks, I'm glad to have contributed to the forum, and I try my best to harvest other contributions before the autodelete monster gets them.
If you have anything positive to generate that you feel is worthy of conservation please point out your efforts to me.
Your welcome, really is a shame one of the brightest minds handicapped on doing what they love best. I'm rather afraid I lack presentational skills.