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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on August 13, 2019, 12:18:17 AM
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I propose that it could be that Drakul is the third Walker (who might be called He Who Walks Between).
1. Drakul is something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child that wound up turning himself into the first Black Court vampire (around 600 years ago*). Ebenezar described him as "the Creature" and "Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel". Which is really something, considering all the stuff Ebenezar would have seen. Also notice the emphasis on "the".
2. The Black Court vampires are actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. The are not of the same ilk really as other vampires (compared to Reds in the quote - see bottom of post).
3. When Jim refers to things like Mordite and Outsiders (both in the novels and in interviews - he often decribes them as "not of this world" and "the Netherworld" etc. World here meaning the universe, not merely Earth. He also often describes the magic associated with them in the same way.
4. He is one of the few beings that could take out Mab.
5. Vlad Tepes (Dracula - the son of Drakul) was the King of Walachia roughly 600 years ago. Which means Mavra likely is one of the first Black Court Vampires (even if she wasn't one of the "Elders") - they would have definitely known each other. WOJ puts Mavra's age at around 600 years old.
So I think it is reasonable to think that Drakul has a strong connection to the Outside. But why specifically is he the Walker? Because of his nature. He seems to be described in terms of Other - not the regular levels of evil and monstrous. We know he is powerful enough to beat Mab. Something else that was not on that list that was as big and scary as Mab, but also hideously deeper, was Sharkface (He Who Walks Before). And there seems to be a strange connection between Mavra, the Black Court, the Black Council/The Circle, and the Outsiders.
The obvious counter-argument to my theory is why would he sign the accords? Shouldn't he and Mab be mortal enemies?
Well my answer is this - it is because he is Between. As in Between two worlds: this one and the Netherworld. A foot in each (a common trope in mythology). Unlike his fellows (Before and Behind) he is not truly immortal any more, perhaps a little more like Vadderung. He is trapped in human form, and that makes him vulnerable. So part of his cold war with Mab is he agreed to not take open action against her. Perhaps he resents being trapped, or left, in his human body. Perhaps he likes being in the mortal world (like Vadderung) and doesn't want to lose the influence he has. The openly horrific nature of the Walkers would be intolerable to the world (I believe there is a WOJ that HWWBh is at Uriel's level, in some ways). But as a somewhat mortal with unbelievable powers, yet still vulnerable, he can be flexible enough to work with. Almost like the Wyldfae, he is his own Power. Sure, when push comes to shove he will side with his own kind. Maybe he likes Reality now that he is in it, maybe he is pissed off at the Outsiders. But one thing is for sure - he is beyond the "usual evil".
Let me know what you think!
PS here is the quote
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They’re actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don’t really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don’t have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they’re basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.
2015 AMA
My only other theory is that he is the Son of the Devil (the Antichrist). Based on Blood Rites, p219. In that area Eb explains that he is the Blackstaff. He implies that Drakul is a scion (which Jim has since contradicted, see above). He is discussing that Scions are often freakishly powerful, insane malformed and monstrous, but occasionally look human. Which is how both Drakul and Kincaid look. Perhaps they are related. Kincaid (while he worked for Drakul was called the Hound of Hell or the Hellhound). One might take that to mean he is a servant of Hell. Which interestingly enough, some stories about the Antichrist mention a hellhound. It would fit that if an Archangel (Lucifer/Satan) had a child with a mortal, it would be an extraordinarily powerful scion (the most powerful Nephalim). But - as the above quote seems to contradict it (and is more recent 2015 AMA versus Blood rites in 2004) and we know Jim has retconned a lot of his original ideas - I think my first theory is more likely.
And no, I don't buy that Drakul is a Dragon. That is just too on the nose, even for Jim. It might have worked if Drakul was a scion, but he isn't anymore. I think that knowledge would be well known too - when Harry is mentioning who the Freeholding lords under the Unseelie Accord's are (White Night) when telling Murphy that he has bribed Marcone with becoming one, he mentions specifically that he has researched it and that there are two Dragons, Drakul, the Archive, the Ukrainian semi-immortal shapeshifting Guru, Vadderung. He specifically separates the Dragons from Drakul.
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Not sure I agree with this overall but we do have in-book reference in White Night whereby there is a connection between Outsiders and the Black Court. It /would/ make sense that Drakul is at least an Outsider trapped on our side and that his scion used his Outsider related power to create the Black Court.
"After which, were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell is going on."
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And no, I don't buy that Drakul is a Dragon. That is just too on the nose, even for Jim. It might have worked if Drakul was a scion, but he isn't anymore. I think that knowledge would be well known too - when Harry is mentioning who the Freeholding lords under the Unseelie Accord's are (White Night) when telling Murphy that he has bribed Marcone with becoming one, he mentions specifically that he has researched it and that there are two Dragons, Drakul, the Archive, the Ukrainian semi-immortal shapeshifting Guru, Vadderung. He specifically separates the Dragons from Drakul.
Yeah, I think there was a WOJ about the other Dragon having domain over fire (Pyrovax?). And while one can never be entirely sure who of the higher powers might be one guy wearing two hats, it seems unlikely in this case.
Not everything unworldly is a Walker, though. He could be a peer of them from before the current creation but who isn't loyal to the Old Ones the outsiders and the walkers are trying to wake / free either.
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Not sure I agree with this overall but we do have in-book reference in White Night whereby there is a connection between Outsiders and the Black Court. It /would/ make sense that Drakul is at least an Outsider trapped on our side and that his scion used his Outsider related power to create the Black Court.
Yeah fair enough - there is certainly not enough empirical evidence that Drakul is a Walker, hence why it is still a theory. But his connection to the Outsiders, and his mystery, are strong enough I think to build a good theory around. In fact there a many in-text references to connections between the Black Court and Outsiders, not just White Night! Blood Rites for one, when Ebenezar is explaining who Drakul is and his difference from his half-human son Dracula. Eb goes on to say that Dracula went to join the Black Court as a teenage rebellion. As Jim got older and revised/retconned/forgot his old ideas Drakul no longer became a scion (half human, half immortal) only Dracula (his son) was the scion and seems to have turned himself into the first Black Court Vampire (rather than merely joining them).
Yeah, I think there was a WOJ about the other Dragon having domain over fire (Pyrovax?). And while one can never be entirely sure who of the higher powers might be one guy wearing two hats, it seems unlikely in this case.
Yeah Pyrovax (fire) and Ferrovax (metal) are the two remaining Dragons - there is a WOJ on this. So it seems logical that they are the two Freeholding lords that are Dragons (indeed Ferrovax is implied to be one). I did consider whether their might be a masks/mantles situation going on but I think Outsiders don't do masks/mantles. They change depending on which universe they are trying to enter (almost as if they have no Free Will in which to choose who they will be... *wink wink, nudge nudge*)
Not everything unworldly is a Walker, though. He could be a peer of them from before the current creation but who isn't loyal to the Old Ones the outsiders and the walkers are trying to wake / free either.
Yeah true. I wondered about that also - if he is some other being from before Creation. One wonders about TWG in relation to Outsiders too, did he come from the same place as the Outsiders? In that case, is he an Outsider too? Or something else entirely... Bit of a rabbit hole to go down!
I think the difficulty with defining Drakul is from his lack of information about him. Especially about what he wants, what he is doing, what he has done. All we know is that he is incredibly powerful and cruel, and no one wants to mess with him. And that his son tried to impress him by creating the Black Court - which it didn't impress him much.
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Hmm, given the name Drakul, I think it more likely that he is an Nfected Dragon who was trapped in human form as a way of containment. Dracula’s attempt to break out was tainted by Nemesis, which was the ritual that created the BCV.
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The Devil is occasionally referred to as a serpent in biblical lore, based on the whole Eden thing.
And a Dragon is just Greek for a serpent.
So, to me, a Hellish connection makes sense. Of course we are sure Lucifer himself is not wholely trapped (or Small Favor could not have happened), but it could be another major-league Fallen Angel (one of the Watchers/Grigori maybe?)
Mind, it has the downside of not explaining the Black Court/Outsider connection, but it explains the name which the Outsider theory does not.
Though with some further work, it is possible to pin the Outsider angle in there - the Watchers taught men forbidden lore, and what is more forbidden than knowledge of the Outside?
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Hmm, given the name Drakul, I think it more likely that he is an Nfected Dragon who was trapped in human form as a way of containment. Dracula’s attempt to break out was tainted by Nemesis, which was the ritual that created the BCV.
But White Night implies that Drakul is NOT a Dragon - Dresden specifically separates him from the other two Dragons that are Freeholding Lords. Not to mention, it is too obvious. Think about it, it isn't like Ferrovax is referred to as Ferrovax the Dragon, or simply "Dragon"...he is called Ferrovax. As some have pointed out, in historical terms Vlad Dracul was given that name as he was made a Knight of the Order of the Dragon. While I can understand why the Outsiders might want a Nfected Dragon, why would they trap him in human form? The Outsiders are pretty cruel but they tend to utilise their assets towards furthering their goal of destroying reality. Having a weakened asset just for kicks seems...unusual. If not outright foolish.
The Devil is occasionally referred to as a serpent in biblical lore, based on the whole Eden thing.
And a Dragon is just Greek for a serpent.
So, to me, a Hellish connection makes sense. Of course we are sure Lucifer himself is not wholely trapped (or Small Favor could not have happened), but it could be another major-league Fallen Angel (one of the Watchers/Grigori maybe?)
Mind, it has the downside of not explaining the Black Court/Outsider connection, but it explains the name which the Outsider theory does not.
Though with some further work, it is possible to pin the Outsider angle in there - the Watchers taught men forbidden lore, and what is more forbidden than knowledge of the Outside?
Indeed, makes a good alternate theory. Why couldn't have Small Favor happened? Drakul by no means seems to be weak (he terrifies Ebenezar - just think about that, the guy who did the Tunguska Event, New Madrid, Krakatoa...) So if he were Lucifer, I see no reason why him being trapped in human form would limit him. Uriel giving Michael his Grace was not the same as Falling - Uriel specifically mentions that he is merely loaning his Grace to Michael and should Michael abuse that Power, Uriel would Fall. We don't really know what that would mean in terms of Power, but we do know it hasn't seemed to limit Lucifer's Power much (hence providing the power for Thorned Namshiel ritual in SmF). I see no reason Drakul being Lucifer means he couldn't use his power.
But yes, the Lucifer-theory has the drawback of not explaining the Outsider connection well enough. Hence why I think Drakul is an Outsider trapped in a human body. And when I think of Outsider characters...there are not many by name. So He Who Walks Between seemed to work.
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I've assumed Drakul was a former Outsider who got stuck here during the chaos of the last time the Gates turned over (Hastings, in my opinion). The Changing of the Guard is a good time to try an attack, I'd think.
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I like the theory that Drakul is an Oustider trapped in human form. We really can't know until we get more information, but it's fun anyway.
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Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.
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But White Night implies that Drakul is NOT a Dragon - Dresden specifically separates him from the other two Dragons that are Freeholding Lords. Not to mention, it is too obvious. Think about it, it isn't like Ferrovax is referred to as Ferrovax the Dragon, or simply "Dragon"...he is called Ferrovax. As some have pointed out, in historical terms Vlad Dracul was given that name as he was made a Knight of the Order of the Dragon. While I can understand why the Outsiders might want a Nfected Dragon, why would they trap him in human form? The Outsiders are pretty cruel but they tend to utilise their assets towards furthering their goal of destroying reality. Having a weakened asset just for kicks seems...unusual. If not outright foolish.
Hmm you seem to misunderstand my theory. My WAG is that Drakul was originally a Dragon who got Nfected - he was trapped in human form by the good guys - this was likely the only way they would’ve been able to contain him, obviously to the detriment of the Outsiders (which is why they haven’t succeeded).
I also wouldn’t take Harry’s offhand categorization in WN as gospel about the nature of Drakul. But I suppose it’s possible that now that he’s ‘human’, Drakul no longer counts as a Dragon. Also, I doubt Drakul is his real name.
Drakul being an Outsider trapped as a human seems incongruous - i don’t think Outsiders have the capacity for free will like humans do - indeed we don’t even know if Outsiders are capable of taking human form - they have never mimicked another creature from the mortal world in the series so far (& they don’t really need to, thanks to Nemesis).
Also, I imagine Outsiders are next to impossible to kill, especially on our world, so even when they are vanquished (like 16 yr old Harry vs. HWWB), they likely just ‘re-spawn’ in the Outside again. So why wouldn’t human trapped Drakul just kill himself & re-spawn?
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If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. ... time travel ... these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.
I'm not sure I follow.
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Kindler: Maybe so! That would fit nicely, but sadly we have so little information about that time not much more we can add. Still I like it - it has the right flavor of things.
Bad Alias: I am 90% sure Drakul is an Outsider. Which one is the question - but I am a bit less certain on who. I can't imagine he is some nobody Outsider, but probably not an Old One (they seem to be rather Apocalyptic and altogether insane), so the third Walker seemed a good fit. But who knows!
Here's some more evidence about the Black Court not fitting with the rest of the game. Free will is a constant theme in the series and its integral to any shift from human to other. Scions, white, and red court vampires all have an aspect of free choice before they change. So do wizards in fact though it's broader in that case. But black court vampires are a glaring exception. If you're turned you're turned. Its a violation of free will, an extension or subset of necromancy. If you look carefully at the laws of magic all of them, except the 7th, except the one about outsiders, specifically ban magic as it is used to override free will. Murder, murder through forced animal tranformation, time travel, enthralling others and invading minds, necromancy, these are all violations of free will as its defined in the series.
Great stuff there! An excellent observation - the Black Court vampires get zero choice about what they will be. Indeed, there have been some hints that Black Court vampires are essentially somewhere between reanimated corpses and controlled spectres. Perhaps a melding of the two. They have more Will than the average undead spook, and yet are very much enthralled to their sires. Harry even notices that Mavra isn't really a "she". It is an "It" a animated monster, but nothing really living or human or gendered about it. It begets some serious implications on how the Outsiders work. You will notice that apart from their terrifying speed, strength and general toughness - they can both invade and enthrall mortal minds (violating Free Will) by creating both Thralls and Renfields. They also seem to be able to to this to animals. Beyond that - turning into smoke or even other animals suggest a level of tranformation not normally possible. Plus they seemingly can become Wizard-level talents over time - but their magic is horrible and disruptive (especially to other dead things). Their abilities seem to match up to several of the Laws of Magic. Obviously a botched job creating them though, as they are so full of spirit energy they are massively vulnerable in certain areas. Fire, Sunlight both disrupt magic. Decapitation is commonly used to dispatch the undead. Holy Water - suggests a certain spiritual connection to the antithesis of Heaven. Garlic is unusal...not sure how Jim will work that in. But it fits the lore. And of course - they cannot flat stick cross a threshold without permission. While many beings suffer from the threshold problem, only Outsiders seemed to be similarly hampered. If we consider the borders of Faerie as the threshold of reality, and the Outer Gates as the front door, the situation is very similar.
Actually I think all the Laws of Magic are about Free Will. Including the 7th. When you reach beyond the Outer Gates, you might violate your own Free Will and potentially another's (as we don't know the mechanics of reaching beyond the Outer Gates) perhaps you have to sacrifice someone. Or of course the fact that while you are exercising your Free Will to invite them in, you risk all of Humanity's Free Will when they are here.
Bad Alias: Time Travel overrides Free Will by creating problems in the time lines perhaps, you are enforcing your will over the destinies of others. But that is only one such possibility.
Kbrizzle: Well that is true, I did misunderstand who might have trapped him in your theory. I certainly think it is more likely the good guys trapped him than the bad, on that we agree. It is certainly possible he is a trapped Nfected Dragon. But which Dragon then? Not Ferro (metal) or Pyro (Fire) or Sirio (Lightning/Air/Earth) for certain. Leaves only Water and Wood. And WOJ is that there are only two left, when Michael killed Siriothrax he only left two remaining. I just don't see big bad Drakul as the Dragon of Water or Wood. I suppose yes it isn't gospel (Harry's categorization) but since Jim has confirmed it in interviews, it does feel pretty solid.
I am sure Drakul isn't his real name...but why label yourself "Dragon" if you were hiding? Or had stopped being one when becoming human? Why would anyone label you that way either?
But as you yourself have guessed, the Outsider in question may not have had a choice in becoming human. Whoever trapped him was not giving him the option. Quite right that they never have mimicked Mortals, they hate being constrained and don't really need to. However, as you say, trapping him might have been the best his foes could hope for (think Maggie's death curse on Lord Raith - she couldn't kill him but she could slow him down).
A very good question! If you kill the Outsider and they just respawn in the Outside - why wouldn't Drakul just suicide? I think the clue is in the wording: "He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". This is why. He cannot leave his mortal body even via death, or perhaps on his death he will be truly destroyed. Either way he is stuck. As one redditor mentioned, this has similarities to Lovecraft's Magnum Opus "The Shadow Out Of Time". Which as we know, Lovecraft was killed for his knowledge. In a the book, a being that can travel through space and time invades and posses the mind of a man and they swap roles. The man experiences life in prehistory, and the alien experiences life in the man's present. The problem is for these creatures, they become trapped in the bodies of people trying to avoid more horrible entities.
Finally, I would like to point out here and elsewhere that the Devil connection is probably wrong. Drakul has been around for 600 years...and the Antichrist is meant to show up during the End of Days. Seems like the End of Days has not yet happened...as evidenced by it all still existing. If he is the Devil himself - similar to the World of Darkness rpg - why is he still in command of Hell? General's who abandon their armies for too long tend not to be in charge.
Also according to WOJ the Devil wants reality. He is apart of our world. Outsiders, on the other hand, do not. They have no limits.
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People across the world have thought garlic guarded them against various dangers for thousands of years. http://americanfolklore.net/folklore/2010/10/garlic_superstitions_folklore.html (http://americanfolklore.net/folklore/2010/10/garlic_superstitions_folklore.html)
I'm not sold on time travel violates free will. I mean, sure, maybe, but it would also give everyone the opportunity to choose again, increasing free will.
To play Devil's Advocate on the Anti-Christ theory, pun intended, Drakul could be an Anti-Christ as opposed to the Anti-Christ.
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Bad Alias: Interesting take on the Garlic theory...not sure why they are affected more than others though.
Well true enough, if we could all Time Travel, we all would have pretty good options. We are getting into the realm between physics and metaphysics here. But I think it all depends on whether there is ONE timeline, ONE destiny or SEVERAL. And if there are many, what does that mean about our choices? WOJ is that each choice spins off another alternate reality (much like some real world physics theories), and so each choice is therefore extremely significant. Which means even ONE rewrite whilst creating many more options, would obliterate others. The original special timeline (in the continuum of timelines) would not exist, as new ones replaced it. That in and of itself overrules other's Free Will. But now we are getting into ethics and philosophy.
Someone much brainier than I but I forget who pointed out that if we could travel back in time, we would do so endlessly, reliving the past and correcting our mistakes, which is probably an excellent reason we cannot and indeed should not. Why move forward at all? How can you? It would be an endless loop.
:D Good pun! And a reasonable alternative. However, how many Antichrists does one need to have an apocalypse? What do you do with the spares, the failures, the rejects? And still, if the Antichrists purpose is to turn the people away from God and bring forth the End Times, why is Drakul taking so long? If I were the Devil I would be pretty mad myself, and probably would have done something earlier. Although, I am pretty sure all those Angels are looking at the Macro-perspective as well as the Micro (including the Fallen) and therefore there are timelines and realities where the Devil has won. Food for thought!
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I've always had a problem with the exercise of free will creates another timeline. Doesn't that just mean that there is a (actually several, taking into account others' choices) Harry out there that has never exercised free will because he exists in the timeline in which he didn't make the choice and just acted in accord with his nature? Doesn't that mean that that Harry doesn't have free will because 1. he must exist, and 2. he must not exercise free will in order to exist? :o
Since free will is the choice to act against ones nature, wouldn't someone in the exact same situation as they had been be able exercise free will when they hadn't before? Definitely a metaphysical question. A detailed explanation of how time travel works might help persuade me one way or the other.
Once again, I'm not really partial to the idea that Drakul is the Devil's offspring, and I am partial to your idea that he is an Outsider somehow trapped here in a human form. One definition of Anti-Christ is "a person or force seen as opposing Christ or the Christian Church," so that would include evangelical atheists like Richard Dawkins, Muslims who seek to convert Christians, and probably plenty of examples of other people most would describe as perfectly decent individuals. Only a couple of theological beliefs even define the Anti-Christ as the spawn of Satan. But if Satan can have a child, why not a dozen?
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Mmmm yes I know what you mean. I am not sure I would have written it myself as it creates so many problems, but this is Jim's party, as they say. Hopefully Jim does a really good Time Travel book - it seems he has already begun to lay the foundations in Cold Days so I expect Mirror Mirror to be very enlightening (and will be rather disappointed if it is not). But notoriously difficult and tricky to write too, considering the physics isn't even that clear on how it should all work (and there are many theories, and interpretations of those theories)! But you are tying my head in a pretzel with your questions about multiple Harry's. I suppose you question assumes that all possible Harry's exist, rather than just some. If it is just some, then they would likely tend towards being the same (consider the Law for the Conservation of History, as Harry puts it). But if they all exist then likely there is at least one Harry that doesn't ever act against his nature, probably because the Devil has won in that creation (if not several versions). Which I imagine means Uriel or one of the other Archangel's nuke the whole thing at that point. I see the whole war being like an enormous game of Go or Mahjong...it's not about winning one game, but the set. But it is rather a bleak view of existence. But to answer your question, no. Harry always has Free Will -whether he chooses to use it or not is an entirely different matter. Just because he never has exercised his ability to Choose, doesn't mean he can't. Your conclusion is wrong because one of the premises of your argument is false - Free Will is NOT the ability to choose to act against one's nature. Free Will is the ability to Choose. Period. It only matters whether you can Choose, not whether you act in accordance with your nature, or against it. Quite probably what the Devil is so upset about, at least in the Dresden Files.
The whole timeline thing has the same problem as the Base-Reality theory (which is popular amongst the computer simulation crowd - a la the Matrix - which of course is just a much older theory with a new coat of paint). Which is the first Time Line? How could you even tell? Is it more important than all the others? Does it still exist or did it fail? That is too deep a rabbit hole for this discussion I suspect, fun as it is.
As for the Antichrist issue - well, that is an interesting way of looking at it. Drakul fits the role with what he is, rather than it being integral to his origins. Like if a person is a fireman. You are not necessarily born one, but you can become one by your choices and your actions.
But. To answer your question about why the Devil can't have several - just reading it gave me the answer. Because I suspect it is against his very nature. Commonly, TWG is equated to be similar in most aspects to the Christian God. The God of Love. Harry says the act of creating a child, a soul, is a fundamental act of love. Two souls combining to create a new third soul, separate from the original two. Now you could argue that definitely love is often not involved in creating a child, and Jim often leaves things very vague and mystical in this area, but you could imagine at the point that TWG creates that new soul, that is an act of Love. I really have no idea how Jim looks at this in his world, and I suspect we will never ever get a clear answer as it probably runs too close to his own views (and Jim is quite private about that stuff).
So I think unless the Devil fell in love, he couldn't make a soul. It requires a full-on act of love. And the Devil cut himself off from Love, or so we are led to believe (unless he actually serves a purpose in Creation). Maybe that's how it happens and then he gets mad when something goes wrong. Who knows? Unlike Dresden though, he really could burn the entire world.
The other side of this is of course, that in creating an Antichrist or several, he is really just creating the possibility of an Antichrist. And that because his child would be half-mortal, they get the freedom to Choose. Which I imagine would piss him right off.
JUST TO BE CLEAR TO ANYONE READING - this is purely a discussion for how things might work in the Dresden Files. It doesn't necessarily reflect my views, and isn't gospel in our world. So please don't get mad. I know this is skirting a tad close to Touchy Topics so I am doing my best to stay away from the line.
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<heh> The multi-universe thing, Free Will, choices creating new branches, etc... has given me a realization.
Somewhere in the multiverse, there's a universe where nobody has made any "choice" that departed from the basics of who they are... nobody ever exercised their Free Will.
THAT is the "real" universe, the one from which, ultimately, all others diverge. Everything else is an "alternate" universe of that one.
No wonder God likes free will so much !!!
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I think choice is the decision to act outside one's nature. WoJ about Bob and free will:
Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it. She simply isn't capable. She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.
The premise of Mirror Mirror is that Harry made a different choice/didn't make a choice in Grave Peril and every time a Choice is made, the universe splits. One universe in which the Choice is made, and one in which it wasn't. Therefore there must be a universe in which Harry hasn't made a single choice. Because that universe must exist, there has to be a Harry incapable of making choices.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding and any Choice point causing a split is where different Choices happened, but I don't really see how that works.
As to the Spawn of Satan (SoS) issue, how could one SoS show up if love is against his nature and creating a child requires love? Also, how could Goodman Grey show up?
While we're on the subjects of SoS and free will, a thing that has always annoyed me in fiction centered on the SoS and his or her struggle to not be evil, I've basically never seen one where some character points out that this person, the SoS, should have free will just like their parents. Generally, angels and humans are considered to have free will. Angels can't change their mind because they exist outside of time, so their choice to move in one direction has always and will always exist, or at least that's how it was explained to me once. So a SoS should be able to exercise free will and not be evil. It would at least make any story about one more interesting as there wouldn't be a necessarily foregone conclusion to the story.
I'd also like to see in one of these stories where someone sells their soul to the Devil that relies heavily on Christian beliefs, to have the solution be the obvious solution of repentance and forgiveness, which is kinda a big deal in Christianity. I'd love to see something where a character figures that out and says something along the lines of "no, it doesn't work that way." I just can't imagine it being done in an entertaining way that doesn't feel very preachy and cheesy.
To relate that back to the DF, this seems like this may be the case with Michael. Michael offered to trade himself for the Sword. Lea said "For once the Redeemer's blade was in your hands again, you would find the shattering of our pact a simple enough matter." Why wasn't Harry able to do this? Why did his attempt result in the Sword rejecting him and leaving itself vulnerable? Perhaps because Harry lacks faith? Just seems a little weird to me.
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... that universe must exist, there has to be a Harry incapable of making choices ...
Not incapable... he just hasn't.
If you can't make a choice, there is no choice!
... So a SoS should be able to exercise free will and not be evil. It would at least make any story about one more interesting as there wouldn't be a necessarily foregone conclusion to the story.
The usual presumption here is "bad blood" -- free will from the human side, but a powerful pull toward evil, from the Infernal side. So they CAN be good... it's just really REALLY hard for them (much harder than it is for you and I).
I'd also like to see in one of these stories where someone sells their soul to the Devil that relies heavily on Christian beliefs, to have the solution be the obvious solution of repentance and forgiveness, which is kinda a big deal in Christianity. I'd love to see something where a character figures that out and says something along the lines of "no, it doesn't work that way." I just can't imagine it being done in an entertaining way that doesn't feel very preachy and cheesy.
It goes one of two ways, I think...
deathbed repentance, which sometimes seems like a stupid "get out of jail free" cardtrick, and I hate (but a LOT of people did the priest-at-bedside to confess not just sins-since-last-Sunday, but a litany of never-confessed sins). I mean, if your ONLY motivation is escaping punishment, I don't consider that true "repentance" for the sins.
I've also seen the last-minute repentance where St.Peter at the Gates of Heaven says, "Really? You expect us to believe that bullpucky? Sorry, nope!"
For the "genuine repentance" thing, look to the song "Amazing Grace" and the story of its writing. Someone who repents because they have repented, not because they are afraid of imminent punishment.
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Not incapable... he just hasn't.
If you can't make a choice, there is no choice!
That's my point. A Harry who hasn't made a choice must exist. If a choiceless Harry must exist, he can't make a choice, otherwise, he wouldn't exist as a choiceless Harry. It is only the Harry that chose that had the ability to choose.
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That's my point. A Harry who hasn't made a choice must exist. If a choiceless Harry must exist, he can't make a choice, otherwise, he wouldn't exist as a choiceless Harry. It is only the Harry that chose that had the ability to choose.
"Didn't choose" is different from "couldn't choose."
Unfortunately, "choiceless" does not differentiate.
A Harry who could have chosen, but didn't... who just drifted with whatever the mood of the moment brought? He didn't have his free will taken away; he just never made use of it.
That Harry isn't "choiceless," in that he still has his free will. At any future instant he might be confronted with a meaningful choice... and make such a choice. He isn't "choiceless" in the sense of being unable to make a choice, but in the sense of not having done so in any prior instance.
(are we descended into the uttermost pits of geek depravity here? Or is there a Lower Hell yet to delve? And will we 'Choose' to do so?)
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The premise of Mirror Mirror is that Harry made a different choice/didn't make a choice in Grave Peril and every time a Choice is made, the universe splits. One universe in which the Choice is made, and one in which it wasn't. Therefore there must be a universe in which Harry hasn't made a single choice. Because that universe must exist, there has to be a Harry incapable of making choices.
There can't be a point where no choice is made since not making a decision is, in itself, a choice. Mirror Mirror wold seem to be about contrasting the difference between two different possible paths.
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I like the concept of Drakul being an outsider trapped and unable to die. Perhaps Vlad II was a real man who sacrificed his own life and existence to save his people from this evil and became a human prison for it? Or was some evil person who sought power but didn't understand the price. Like how Fallen is trapped in a coin and, when it has a host, a human-shaped can. They can do more things but are still limited by a human's reach.
As for SoS and Dracula being born, two possibilities. If Drakul is the human-shaped can the outsider is in, then some of that plumbing still works and there could be enough of his soul left to care for someone to produce a child. And like that, maybe Lucifer will posses a human to conceive a child that way. He will use the love of these two mortals to force the creation of his offspring. After all, Nicodemus shows his plumbing still works in having made a daughter after he was possessed, and several centuries after he found the coin.
And while love is nice in the creation of a new soul, I don't think it is needed in all cases, otherwise you set a bad precedent for when rape causes pregnancy. I don't think you want to say there is love in that moment when the victim is against this from happening, nor that any kid born from rape is "soulless" as the parents' souls didn't merge into a third.
It is just that an act of love is a type of creation but not all types of creation are acts of love.
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(are we descended into the uttermost pits of geek depravity here? Or is there a Lower Hell yet to delve? And will we 'Choose' to do so?)
To the very depths we shall go. But the thing is, when Harry makes a Choice, this rule causes there to be a Harry that doesn't make a Choice. It takes his Choice away. It just occurred to me that perhaps the universe splits because in exercising free will, Harry opens up multiple/all possible realities in which a Choice can be made. Let's keep the Choice binary for simplicity's sake (three options). Let's say it's at the point where Ortega offers Harry a way out. Option 1: Harry doesn't exercise free will and this results in his death because he "gives up." Option 2/Choice 1: Harry does what he did in the book. Option 3/Choice 2: Harry takes the deal. So, when Harry chooses to exercise free will, then Choices 1 and 2 both come into being and Option 1 doesn't exist.
Otherwise Option 1 Harry must exist. If he must exist, the can't Choose and every use of free will is also not a use of free will.
There can't be a point where no choice is made since not making a decision is, in itself, a choice. Mirror Mirror wold seem to be about contrasting the difference between two different possible paths.
I'm using "choice" as short hand for the exercise of free will, which is a rarity. Think of it as if Dresden lives in a largely deterministic universe where in rare instances people exercise free will in a non-deterministic fashion. Most actions or inactions would normally be entirely predictable given enough information. However on rare occasions, the prediction would be wrong because someone Choose.
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I like the concept of Drakul being an outsider trapped and unable to die. Perhaps Vlad II was a real man who sacrificed his own life and existence to save his people from this evil and became a human prison for it? Or was some evil person who sought power but didn't understand the price. Like how Fallen is trapped in a coin and, when it has a host, a human-shaped can. They can do more things but are still limited by a human's reach.
As for SoS and Dracula being born, two possibilities. If Drakul is the human-shaped can the outsider is in, then some of that plumbing still works and there could be enough of his soul left to care for someone to produce a child. And like that, maybe Lucifer will posses a human to conceive a child that way. He will use the love of these two mortals to force the creation of his offspring. After all, Nicodemus shows his plumbing still works in having made a daughter after he was possessed, and several centuries after he found the coin.
And while love is nice in the creation of a new soul, I don't think it is needed in all cases, otherwise you set a bad precedent for when rape causes pregnancy. I don't think you want to say there is love in that moment when the victim is against this from happening, nor that any kid born from rape is "soulless" as the parents' souls didn't merge into a third.
It is just that an act of love is a type of creation but not all types of creation are acts of love.
Just to be clear, I am not saying love is necessary to create life, Jim did (via Harry). I quite agree that such a simplistic idea runs into very obvious and much more complex problems, but read that whole passage where Harry talks (I think to Susan) about it. He talks about primal forces of energy and stuff. True, I did embellish and discuss it in more depth than the original passage, but that was what I inferred. Perhaps Jim will clarify one day I hope, I certainly don't believe it myself. Hence why I put the disclaimer at the bottom of that post. :)
Your theory is good, although I couldn't tell if you were saying Lucifer was an Outsider or not...I think Jim makes a pretty strong distinction that he isn't. He also has stated that they are not working together, and that Lucifer isn't Nfected. Something to do with Archangels being Absolute and such. And that Lucifer wants Creation to exist, he is merely engaged in an argument with God about its nature or some such. Where as the Outsiders just want to obliterate it.
I agree that there is enough *something* for Lucifer to produce a child. Even Drakul can. Which would imply that "love" and indeed GTWG are not necessarily directly required to create life. But that opens up a whole new can of worms.
Guys: I think we also in this argument should consider how Jim writes, and talks, about Free Will. Whilst it might not be the entirety of his views, I do suspect there are a fair bit of them embedded in his works and comments. So in terms of the Dresdenverse, I think that there is always Choice. I think to Jim's way of thinking (if I can be so bold as to guess his mind), no Free Will and no Choice, amounts to one and the same - which is tyranny. It is so fundamental to the series, and the universe he has created, I cannot imagine there is any part of Creation that has no Choice for Mortals. Outside is quite likely different. But I think Inside you always have a Choice. If not several.
Bad Alias: Whilst your argument is logically sound, I don't think it fits the structure of the series. Which is probably more a fault in Jim's planning than anything else. Will he ever correct this? Probably not, unless it imposes a major issue on the story.
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Your theory is good, although I couldn't tell if you were saying Lucifer was an Outsider or not...I think Jim makes a pretty strong distinction that he isn't. He also has stated that they are not working together, and that Lucifer isn't Nfected. Something to do with Archangels being Absolute and such. And that Lucifer wants Creation to exist, he is merely engaged in an argument with God about its nature or some such. Where as the Outsiders just want to obliterate it.
I agree that there is enough *something* for Lucifer to produce a child. Even Drakul can. Which would imply that "love" and indeed GTWG are not necessarily directly required to create life. But that opens up a whole new can of worms.
I wasn't meaning Luci was an Outsider, rather to produce the Anti-Christ, Luci could possess or have a shadow possess a mortal man who sires the child with a woman.
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Guys: I think we also in this argument should consider how Jim writes, and talks, about Free Will. Whilst it might not be the entirety of his views, I do suspect there are a fair bit of them embedded in his works and comments. So in terms of the Dresdenverse, I think that there is always Choice. I think to Jim's way of thinking (if I can be so bold as to guess his mind), no Free Will and no Choice, amounts to one and the same - which is tyranny. It is so fundamental to the series, and the universe he has created, I cannot imagine there is any part of Creation that has no Choice for Mortals. Outside is quite likely different. But I think Inside you always have a Choice. If not several.
Bad Alias: Whilst your argument is logically sound, I don't think it fits the structure of the series. Which is probably more a fault in Jim's planning than anything else. Will he ever correct this? Probably not, unless it imposes a major issue on the story.
Agree entirely, which is why what I've heard about how the multi-verse in the Dresden Files works irks me so much. That and perhaps the Emerson quote a "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
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I'm using "choice" as short hand for the exercise of free will, which is a rarity. Think of it as if Dresden lives in a largely deterministic universe where in rare instances people exercise free will in a non-deterministic fashion. Most actions or inactions would normally be entirely predictable given enough information. However on rare occasions, the prediction would be wrong because someone Choose.
Jim seems to have cribbed his idea of free will from the Alex Verus. Or maybe I put the cart before the horse, and it's the other way around. Benedict Jacka's character sees events as a set of diminishing probabilities as he approaches a nexus. So his choices become limited by decisions he makes as he goes on. But if he survives that nexus the choices again become numerous.
This almost perfectly mirrors what Mother Summer and Winter appear to be seeing when events in Cold Days lead Mother Summer to take Harry to the outer gates. Harry's exercise of free will is in accepting the consequences Mother Summers invitation. It is at this nexus that choice or free will come into play.
The idea being that most choice or exercises of free will are lost in the noise, and makes no difference to the final outcome. Until you approach one of these points. So in Grave Peril Harry moves to the point where he must must make a choice about Susan. At each step through the books he progressively narrows the number of possible outcomes to reach that point where there is only a limited number of choices to move forward. And it is at this point where free will and the idea of choice become important.
I don't know if this makes much sense in the context of this thread but is how I see free will playing out in the Dverse.
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Jim seems to have cribbed his idea of free will from the Alex Verus. Or maybe I put the cart before the horse, and it's the other way around. Benedict Jacka's character sees events as a set of diminishing probabilities as he approaches a nexus. So his choices become limited by decisions he makes as he goes on. But if he survives that nexus the choices again become numerous
IIRC, Dresden actually describes how the Ordo Lebes member with short term precognition’s ability works in a very similar, cloud of probabilities kind of way.