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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: knnn on November 29, 2012, 01:50:41 PM
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I haven't quite thought out all the implications, but here goes:
When Harry meets with Lily under the truce, she implies that Nemesis corrupted Denton and his fellow FBI agents and that is what caused them to go power mad. This bothers me, because someone still had to physically make/give them the hexunbelts, and also Denton seemed quite informed about magic stuff (e.g. the need to frame Macfinn to cover his trail). Also, we see onscreen that when Harry uses one of the belts he gets an urge to kill. The implication I always took from this is that if he actually used the belt to kill he would have been permanently corrupted...
So granted Lily isn't a scholarly source about NtC (Nemesis-type Corruption), but this does raise the notion that we've seen NtC onscreen before. This leads me to my first WAG:
Basic WAG Theory 1: The corruption you get from killing with magic is Outsider-based.
...and the more radical form:
Crazy WAG Theory 2: The corruption you get is not only Outsider-based, but is actually Nemesis itself.
There's not much proof I can offer for these, but consider:
- Only mortal magic corrupts when used for killing.
- Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders.
Here's another interesting point:
- Outsiders have apparently have some natural immunity to regular mortal magic. If this is because they are the "source of magic", then this would be similar to the natural immunity Winter Fae have against cold, etc.
Crazy WAG Theory 3: The Laws of Magic are all anti-Outsider in origin
We know the Original Merlin (who apparently knew a LOT about the theory of magic) wrote down the Laws of Magic. If Outsiders are the source of corruption, then all seven Laws might originally have been anti-Outsider laws. Heck, even the law against time-travel might be Outsider related, because we see how they used time-magic to attack the prison on Demonreach.
Crazy WAG Theory 4: The Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
When Ebenezer uses the Blackstaff at CI, we see those black-tendrils curing him from the corruption. Call me crazy, but those black tendrils remind me a lot of the description we get of Mordite and the Mistfiend at the end of Turn Coat (which Harry reminds us was an Outsider). If the two types of corruption are similar (or identical), then it makes sense that the Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
For more possible evidence, consider also that the only "onscreen" cure to Nemesis so far is Lea -- cured by the Queen of Winter, who is also in charge of the defense against Outsiders. If the Blackstaff really is Mother Winter's walking stick, then it certainly makes some sense that it would have anti-outsider related powers (similar to the "Unraveling"?). The cure for "normal" magic corruption might just be a side effect...
Crazy WAG Theory 5: The Blackstaff itself was the true target at CI
Another implication is a renewed look at Changes. I personally have never been happy with the notion that the Red Court all got together to throw a super-uber-massive spell just to kill Ebenezer. Sure, he was a powerful wizard, but it still seemed like overkill. If the Blackstaff is really an anti-Outsider weapon I could totally see the BC manipulating the Red Court into using overwhelming force against Ebenezer, knowing that in doing so they achieve the true target of getting the Blackstaff out of commission?
Crazy WAG Theory 6: Faith/Faerie magic works fine against Outsiders
While regular magic reportedly has a hard time hitting outsiders, we have seen that Michael didn't seem to have any difficultly in PG. It is possible that this is simply because Michael gets unlimited powerups while "on duty", but note that the Wild Hunt didn't seem to have any particular problems with the Outsiders either. In PG (or maybe BR?) Bob says that faith magic "is on a different wavelength" than regular magic is . I propose that because faith magic comes from faith (or WG/soul/whatever), it is sufficiently different and can thus hurt Outsiders normally.
...And this brings me to my final WAG:
Super Duper Crazy WAG Theory 7:The reason a "starborn" can hurt Outsiders is because his normal magic incorporates an inherited amount of Faith magic in it.
One thing we have heard over and over again is that Harry's father is "a good man". It has long been a theory of mine that one of the criteria for becoming a Starborn is to have one parent a wizard and one parent "good" (similar to the cleric+magic user thing from D&D).
If faith magic allows you to kill Outsiders more easily, then this actually makes some sense as you can "infuse" your regular magic with "good stuff", and hurt Outsiders even more.
- My guess is that having "good" genes is only one of the criteria (perhaps being born in the right time?), and even that only gives you the potential to be a Starborn. You still need to follow up on your inherent "goodness" (whatever that means) before you can become a true Starborn.
- Note that if this is all really true, then Molly is also a potential Starborn, giving Winter a real advantage in any upcoming confrontation.
hehehehehe...
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I haven't quite thought out all the implications, but here goes:
When Harry meets with Lily under the truce, she implies that Nemesis corrupted Denton and his fellow FBI agents and that is what caused them to go power mad. This bothers me, because someone still had to physically make/give them the hexunbelts, and also Denton seemed quite informed about magic stuff (e.g. the need to frame Macfinn to cover his trail). Also, we see onscreen that when Harry uses one of the belts he gets an urge to kill. The implication I always took from this is that if he actually used the belt to kill he would have been permanently corrupted...
So granted Lily isn't a scholarly source about NtC (Nemesis-type Corruption), but this does raise the notion that we've seen NtC onscreen before. This leads me to my first WAG:
Basic WAG Theory 1: The corruption you get from killing with magic is Outsider-based.
...and the more radical form:
Crazy WAG Theory 2: The corruption you get is not only Outsider-based, but is actually Nemesis itself.
There's not much proof I can offer for these, but consider:
- Only mortal magic corrupts when used for killing.
- Only mortal magic can summon Outsiders.
Here's another interesting point:
- Outsiders have apparently have some natural immunity to regular mortal magic. If this is because they are the "source of magic", then this would be similar to the natural immunity Winter Fae have against cold, etc.
This is all a little too WA for me... Makes too broad of a vector for nemesis to approach from. But it does make me wonder if the source of the "parasite" was that belt.
Crazy WAG Theory 3: The Laws of Magic are all anti-Outsider in origin
We know the Original Merlin (who apparently knew a LOT about the theory of magic) wrote down the Laws of Magic. If Outsiders are the source of corruption, then all seven Laws might originally have been anti-Outsider laws. Heck, even the law against time-travel might be Outsider related, because we see how they used time-magic to attack the prison on Demonreach.
This is actually a pretty good support of your first 2 WAG's though
Crazy WAG Theory 4: The Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
When Ebenezer uses the Blackstaff at CI, we see those black-tendrils curing him from the corruption. Call me crazy, but those black tendrils remind me a lot of the description we get of Mordite and the Mistfiend at the end of Turn Coat (which Harry reminds us was an Outsider). If the two types of corruption are similar (or identical), then it makes sense that the Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
For more possible evidence, consider also that the only "onscreen" cure to Nemesis so far is Lea -- cured by the Queen of Winter, who is also in charge of the defense against Outsiders. If the Blackstaff really is Mother Winter's walking stick, then it certainly makes some sense that it would have anti-outsider related powers (similar to the "Unraveling"?). The cure for "normal" magic corruption might just be a side effect...
Apparently I missed some conversation... Hot damn Stars and Stones! the Blackstaff being Mother Winter's walking stick seems spot on!
Crazy WAG Theory 5: The Blackstaff itself was the true target at CI
Another implication is a renewed look at Changes. I personally have never been happy with the notion that the Red Court all got together to throw a super-uber-massive spell just to kill Ebenezer. Sure, he was a powerful wizard, but it still seemed like overkill. If the Blackstaff is really an anti-Outsider weapon I could totally see the BC manipulating the Red Court into using overwhelming force against Ebenezer, knowing that in doing so they achieve the true target of getting the Blackstaff out of commission?
By the way, I know the term "BC" has a lot of momentum, but I'm pretty confident the term is entirely inaccurate, and way way to narrow. I think Harry even says as much in CD. I might come back to this with a topic.
Crazy WAG Theory 6: Faith/Faerie magic works fine against Outsiders
While regular magic reportedly has a hard time hitting outsiders, we have seen that Michael didn't seem to have any difficultly in PG. It is possible that this is simply because Michael gets unlimited powerups while "on duty", but note that the Wild Hunt didn't seem to have any particular problems with the Outsiders either. In PG (or maybe BR?) Bob says that faith magic "is on a different wavelength" than regular magic is . I propose that because faith magic comes from faith (or WG/soul/whatever), it is sufficiently different and can thus hurt Outsiders normally.
...And this brings me to my final WAG:
Super Duper Crazy WAG Theory 7:The reason a "starborn" can hurt Outsiders is because his normal magic incorporates an inherited amount of Faith magic in it.
One thing we have heard over and over again is that Harry's father is "a good man". It has long been a theory of mine that one of the criteria for becoming a Starborn is to have one parent a wizard and one parent "good" (similar to the cleric+magic user thing from D&D).
If faith magic allows you to kill Outsiders more easily, then this actually makes some sense as you can "infuse" your regular magic with "good stuff", and hurt Outsiders even more.
- My guess is that having "good" genes is only one of the criteria (perhaps being born in the right time?), and even that only gives you the potential to be a Starborn. You still need to follow up on your inherent "goodness" (whatever that means) before you can become a true Starborn.
- Note that if this is all really true, then Molly is also a potential Starborn, giving Winter a real advantage in any upcoming confrontation.
hehehehehe...
I like your "Super Duper" WAG, but it's too speculative to throw support behind :) I love seeing things like this though, because I feel kinda incapable of posting theories that I haven't hashed out rampart like support for.
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Initial thoughts, some of it sounds good (Blackstaff, 7 laws of Merlin), some a bit out there. You might be on to something, gonna sleep on this one though.
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My WAG for theory 7 is that the only thing being Starborn gives Dresden is the ability to shrug off Outsider mental powers. That's all we've seen him do, but it seems to be pretty effective.
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My WAG for theory 7 is that the only thing being Starborn gives Dresden is the ability to shrug off Outsider mental powers. That's all we've seen him do, but it seems to be pretty effective.
I don't have the books on me ATM, but my memory of what Lash said near the end of WN is a part of my paradigm of how magic works where it is a rewriting of reality and that the outsiders coming from a seperate reality have an advantage in rewriting ours, thus making them harder to work magic on. Somehow Harry's Starborn status serves as a potential effective counter for this.
An attempt at an explenation: Starborn means he is more magically in tune with the entire universe/reality?
Time to reread the 2 encounters with HHWB4's mind wammy to see how Harry countered them, as well as the time in WN.
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I don't have the books on me ATM, but my memory of what Lash said near the end of WN is a part of my paradigm of how magic works where it is a rewriting of reality and that the outsiders coming from a seperate reality have an advantage in rewriting ours, thus making them harder to work magic on. Somehow Harry's Starborn status serves as a potential effective counter for this.
An attempt at an explenation: Starborn means he is more magically in tune with the entire universe/reality?
Time to reread the 2 encounters with HHWB4's mind wammy to see how Harry countered them, as well as the time in WN.
Here it is:
Lasciel squared her shoulders and straightened. "You're right," she said. "It is my choice. Listen to me." She leaned closer, her eyes intent. "Vittorio has been given power. That is how he can do this. He is possessed."
I wished I could have raised my eyebrows. Possessed by what?
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."
Gosh, that was interesting. Not relevant, but interesting.
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth—because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump: 1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
Which didn't make any sense. Outsiders were all but immune to magic. It took power garnered only from centuries of study and practice, wielded by the most powerful wizards on the planet, even to slow them down.
"Strange, then, don't you think, that you defeated one when you were sixteen years old?"
What? Since when? The only serious victory I'd had over a spiritual entity when I was that young had been when my old master had sent an assassin demon after me. It hadn't turned out the way DuMorne had been hoping.
Lasciel leaned closer. "He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities. But when he came for you, you overthrew him."
True. I had. It was all still a little blurry, but I remembered the end of the fight well enough. Lots and lots of kaboom, and then no more demon. And there was a burning building.
Thud-thump: 1:25.
"Listen," Lasciel said, giving my head a little shake. "You have the potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want, I can give you an opportunity to defy Malvora's sending. But you'll have to hurry. I don't know how long it will take to throw it off, and they are almost upon you."
After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Lasciel—Lash, rather—nodded once and said, "I will tell you all that I can, Harry."
Then she rose and stepped past me and toward the oncoming ghouls and Vitto Malvora. Her clothes made a slow, soft rustle as she stepped away from me, and Marcone's stopwatch went thud—
Tick, tick, tick . . .
For just a second, no more than a heartbeat or two, I remained impaled on that horrible pike of psychic anguish. Then an odd sensation fell over me, and I don't know precisely how to describe it, except to say that it felt like stepping from brutal, burning sunlight into a sudden, deep shadow. Then that horrible pain eased—not much, but enough to let me suddenly move my arms and my head, enough to know that I could act.
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I liked the WaG, especially the 7 law and merlin, and if you think that it was an artifact used by a mortal (Morgan Le'Fay) that corrupted the Lea and Maeve it gives even more strengh to this idea. We only got learn what corrupted Aurora..
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By the way, I know the term "BC" has a lot of momentum, but I'm pretty confident the term is entirely inaccurate, and way way to narrow. I think Harry even says as much in CD. I might come back to this with a topic.
Fair enough. Replace that with "Outsiders"
I like your "Super Duper" WAG, but it's too speculative to throw support behind :) I love seeing things like this though, because I feel kinda incapable of posting theories that I haven't hashed out rampart like support for.
Yeah, I personally give the full theory about 10% chance of being right (and hence all the WAG warning tags). Still, does seem to reasonably fit everything we know, and is internally consistent so I thought I'd throw it out there.
Besides, who knows, maybe someone will find more evidence for it, or maybe someone will ask Jim a leading question based on this...
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An attempt at an explenation: Starborn means he is more magically in tune with the entire universe/reality?
OOOHHHH... Just had another cool idea.
Remember my old "Entropy Curse reaches back in time to achieve desired effect " theory? Combine this with Odin's description of what happens when you change time (parallel universe) and the fact that Maggie was killed by an Entropy Curse, and maybe this means that Harry is already slightly "out of tune" with the universe, and hence better able to deal with other-reality creatures.
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That's... a really great idea! And it made me realize something that should have been obvious: if Knnn's theory (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35138.msg1677801.html#msg1677801) that that the Laws of Magic exist to prevent Outsiders from gaining influence, then Harry, who has a special immunity to Outsider mental attacks, may be able to violate the Laws without becoming mad! A living Blackstaff!
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one thing, harry using the belt without being corrupted back the starborn/nemesis immunity theory.
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I partially disagree with this theory. I think the last 3 Laws are Outsider prevention based while the first four are about Free Will.
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I don't have the books on me ATM, but my memory of what Lash said near the end of WN is a part of my paradigm of how magic works where it is a rewriting of reality and that the outsiders coming from a seperate reality have an advantage in rewriting ours, thus making them harder to work magic on. Somehow Harry's Starborn status serves as a potential effective counter for this.
An attempt at an explenation: Starborn means he is more magically in tune with the entire universe/reality?
Time to reread the 2 encounters with HHWB4's mind wammy to see how Harry countered them, as well as the time in WN.
I like this theory.
It seems to me that Harry has always had an 'easy' affinity for magic that is not 'normal' wizard magic - necromancy, hellfire/soulfire, etc. Something that implies that the traditional barriers between realities and magics don't really apply fully to him.
Maybe 'starborn' means that Harry is connected to the 'sphere' in the whole multiverse analogy rather than limited to a single reality. Perhaps similar to the cosmic level gods he touches upon all realities simultaneously or something.
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When Ebenezer uses the Blackstaff at CI, we see those black-tendrils curing him from the corruption. Call me crazy, but those black tendrils remind me a lot of the description we get of Mordite and the Mistfiend at the end of Turn Coat (which Harry reminds us was an Outsider).
"Mordite," I said quietly. "Deathstone."
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Wow that's beautiful. It would also explain why any wizard with any Outsider experience gets a real "unexplainable" hardliner stance one anyone violating the laws.
So if you use magic to kill someone, which is what outsiders seem to do they absorb/take/destroy life aka magic, in essence you are directly drawing power from them/bringing them closer to this world.
Similar approach might apply to necromancy, the "gods/representations of necromancy" are probably not exactly the same as the outsiders but in essence ..no one likes them too.
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Crazy WAG Theory 4: The Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
When Ebenezer uses the Blackstaff at CI, we see those black-tendrils curing him from the corruption. Call me crazy, but those black tendrils remind me a lot of the description we get of Mordite and the Mistfiend at the end of Turn Coat (which Harry reminds us was an Outsider). If the two types of corruption are similar (or identical), then it makes sense that the Blackstaff can cure Nemesis corruption.
For more possible evidence, consider also that the only "onscreen" cure to Nemesis so far is Lea -- cured by the Queen of Winter, who is also in charge of the defense against Outsiders. If the Blackstaff really is Mother Winter's walking stick, then it certainly makes some sense that it would have anti-outsider related powers (similar to the "Unraveling"?). The cure for "normal" magic corruption might just be a side effect...
I'm not sure we have enough information to classify the Blackstaff's mode of operation as more like a "filter" or more like a "cure." If it's a filter, then it would only protect Eb from corruption that he would otherwise gain while wielding the Blackstaff. If it's a cure, then it might well "eat" the diseased parts of Eb's soul that were corrupted even before he picked up the Blackstaff (hypothetically speaking). The visual effect of the black tendrils tends to support the "cure" idea, in my opinion, but we don't know exactly how it operates.
Crazy WAG Theory 5: The Blackstaff itself was the true target at CI
Another implication is a renewed look at Changes. I personally have never been happy with the notion that the Red Court all got together to throw a super-uber-massive spell just to kill Ebenezer. Sure, he was a powerful wizard, but it still seemed like overkill. If the Blackstaff is really an anti-Outsider weapon I could totally see the BC manipulating the Red Court into using overwhelming force against Ebenezer, knowing that in doing so they achieve the true target of getting the Blackstaff out of commission?
I don't agree with this part, mostly because I think it is incomplete in several respects. First, I think there were at least two or three chessmasters operating on Team Evil's side, including but possibly not limited to the Red King and Nemesis itself. I think the Red King got set up; Nemesis knew there was a chance that the Bloodline Curse could end up backfiring on the Red Court, but it was worth risking the pawn to take out some combination of the forces that threaten its longer-term goals.
In that case, the Blackstaff was certainly one target of Chichen Itza, but I don't think it was the only target. Per some of your later points concerning Faith magic, all three Swords of the Cross were also present, each of which is probably at least as significant as the Blackstaff. Both the Winter Knight and Queen Mab's right hand woman were there--the loss of either would not only limit Mab's influence, but also reduce her ability to fend off the threat posed by Maeve. The Grey Council was also drawn onto the battlefield, and while we don't know the Council's full roster, Eb and Odin's participation indicates a heavy-hitting group, in my opinion. In the giant mystic powder keg that was Chichen Itza, any number of significant artifacts or entities that threaten Nemesis might have been taken off the board--the Blackstaff is a noteworthy item on the list, but I don't think it's alone on that list.
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I don't agree with this part, mostly because I think it is incomplete in several respects. First, I think there were at least two or three chessmasters operating on Team Evil's side, including but possibly not limited to the Red King and Nemesis itself. I think the Red King got set up; Nemesis knew there was a chance that the Bloodline Curse could end up backfiring on the Red Court, but it was worth risking the pawn to take out some combination of the forces that threaten its longer-term goals.
In that case, the Blackstaff was certainly one target of Chichen Itza, but I don't think it was the only target. Per some of your later points concerning Faith magic, all three Swords of the Cross were also present, each of which is probably at least as significant as the Blackstaff. Both the Winter Knight and Queen Mab's right hand woman were there--the loss of either would not only limit Mab's influence, but also reduce her ability to fend off the threat posed by Maeve. The Grey Council was also drawn onto the battlefield, and while we don't know the Council's full roster, Eb and Odin's participation indicates a heavy-hitting group, in my opinion. In the giant mystic powder keg that was Chichen Itza, any number of significant artifacts or entities that threaten Nemesis might have been taken off the board--the Blackstaff is a noteworthy item on the list, but I don't think it's alone on that list.
Nice theorising - had the Curse gone off, two of the biggest hitters on the GC's side would have been killed - Eb and The Winter Knight, and even if Lea had still killed a bunch of the LoONs, they'd still have been annihilated. Mab and the GC were taking a real risk there.
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I bet I can out crazy your crazy WAGs... The reason Harry can effect as iff they were on a more level field, and the reason why Harry has a peculiar influence as a namer is because he is part outsider, and that to be star born requires not just an alignment but also requires other specific circumstances to enhance the foetus with outsider genetics, anything from full scion to some ritual involving lots of squiggly lines an copious quantities of fluffernutter consistency goo.