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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Ren on February 25, 2011, 04:53:18 PM
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So I've been working on this character, a Monster-Hunting Texas Ranger, who is a Gunslinger and Gunsmith so he can modify and improve his own weapons. Would this allow him to add aspects to a given gun? I'm thinking of simple stuff like "Laser Sights", "Reliable", "Polymer Construction", "Scoped" etc...
Come to think of it, I can even see it added to non-gun weapons, "Razor-Sharp Edge", "Whistling Bulb Arrow", "Extra-heavy Head" or "Poisoned" though for the sake of this post I'll stick to Guns.
I would think these would be considered "Sticky" aspects that could be tagged the same way as other Aspects; with fate points or maneuvers and such.
For RP sake and flavor sake and not wanting to unduly break the game I'd like to work out a reasonable way to make such mods work so any help is welcomed. What kind of limits should be placed on modifications? I already figure that it has to be a mod available for the weapon currently (i.e. no death rays) and should fit the weapon its being attached to and the Aspect should be appropriate to the item.
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That's all more-or-less within the realm of Declarations, I would think.
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I don't think you'd need to worry to much about the extent of these aspects. If you take a stunt called something like Hi-Tech Arsenal or Nothin' Like Custom Made, they should allow you to make a declaration that you can tag as normal, but only one aspect per weapon per scene.
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I always find this part of the system to be awkward. Fate points are not the most abundant commodity, and it doesn't seem... correct that one should have to sink fate points over and over into a laser sight that is always on or a barrel that has been rifled, Its not like the barrel has been un-rifled after one shot and must have magical fate points applied again to make it rifled once more.
That said though the game balance can go rather screwy if you can permanently tag aspects. Don't treat these as pure positive additions to your guns though, they are situational a proper gm should be compelling you for those things in the right instances. I have some ideas on this so I'll jot em down.
Scopes - Anything running or moving fast (use judgment) is going to leave the scopes FOV pretty quick making for an easy compel. On top of this any jarring motion to the gun, kicked, dropped off a building etc will make the scope un-taggable.
Laser sights - usable almost all the time, but magic should interfere with their function, basically any magic user born 30 ago years or earlier should be putting these out of commission. Also they don't do very well for surprise attacks. Also in the right circumstances they can give your position away. Lastly using both a scope and laser sight doesn't make sense you should not be tagging them both at the same time ever.
If you want rattle off some mods you'd like to use, I rather enjoy coming up with house rules like this.
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I started a thread a ways back about Declarations and which skills could meet the knowledge/perception part of Declarations. Seems reasonable to me that the Gun Knowledge trapping under Guns could be used to make Declarations for most of this stuff. I suppose the GM could modify your skill with Resources or Craftsmanship if a particular gun mod seems pricey or complex, and definitely up the threshold on the Declaration as you bring more to bear.
"Okay, I'd like to declare that I have tracer ammo loaded in my M-16."
"Hmmm, okay, so tracers also...along with a bayonet, silver ammo, laser sight, thermal scope...yeah...hit me an 8 and you remembered to load your clips with tracers every 5 rounds..."
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Sounds like a smithing roll to add some sticky aspects to the gun in question. That way, the first tag is free...and between adventures tinker with the weapon some more (IE, reapply the aspect for another free tag). That should get you enough free tags to get through most combats. Laser Sight, Reliable, and Scoped are three free tags. You're always using them, sure, but it's only when you tag (or spend a FP) that it becomes the reason you succeed.
Just my 2c.
However, my Declaration rules are a bit fuzzy, so I'll have to reread and possibly rethink.
-EF
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I have used the gadget rules from Spirit of he Century to model such mods. The SotC SRD has more details, in short you can pay for mods/gadgets by spending stunts, buying them with Resources or building them yourself with Craftmanship. SotC defines the cost and other limits for such tricks. You need to adjust the rules a bit to match the level of weird science you want...
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I'm getting a little invasive into the system here but here is a thought.
These are specialized tools made by a practitioner of the art, they could be paralleled to a craftsman's equivalent of an enchanted item, albeit a mundane equivalent. Their recharge time's and requirements would be based on craft work paying back into them or something even simpler. And the player would be limited to having x mods where x equals their crafting skill. Similar to the limits on focus items.
For example say a laser sight can be used effortlessly and gives a bonus on the roll to hit, but cannot be used again in sustained fire. Firing must stop for a turn until the bonus can be used again. A short recharge time but suddenly its not so game breaking.
This line of thought could get complicated though.
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For example say a laser sight can be used effortlessly and gives a bonus on the roll to hit, but cannot be used again in sustained fire. Firing must stop for a turn until the bonus can be used again. A short recharge time but suddenly its not so game breaking.
This line of thought could get complicated though.
Isn't that how sights can work now? You do a manouver to get the aspect "in my sights", tag it for an invocation to get +2, then do that over again the next turn if you want the +2 without spending a fate point.
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It's been a house rule at my table that most stuff has basically a High Concept Aspect. For stuff like guns, I would allow someone to invoke "M16" for a FP to get a bonus on things M16s are good at, and likewise I could compel that "M16" aspect for things it's bad at.
Armed with a shotgun and trying to take down a man with a human shield? Bet your ass I'm compelling the "Shotgun" aspect so you don't have a shot.
Another POV I think would be as previously mentioned, where the hostage-taker would instead make a Declaration that your "shotgun is no use in a hostage situation" or some such.
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Isn't that how sights can work now? You do a manouver to get the aspect "in my sights", tag it for an invocation to get +2, then do that over again the next turn if you want the +2 without spending a fate point.
Yes but if it existed as something akin to an enchanted item it wouldn't need to be maneuvered every other round it would automatically refresh itself for use since it satisfied its recharge requirement.
I'm just saying IMO that something like laser sights are automatically useful without any further effort of the user to start. Whereas "In my sights" is a direct effort or observation of the user. Once you switch that laser on it is on... until the battery runs out.
This can also be described as a declaration, but what if the player fails the declaration or maneuver in a freak accident? Does their custom pistol grip poof out of existence for a turn and pop back in when they make the declaration again? Perhaps it simply doesn't help them that turn due to extenuating circumstances the GM is now required to come up with. That makes sense I suppose, I'd be hard pressed to explain to my gun-nut player why his advanced rifling inexplicably didn't help his aim this turn though. Perhaps I'll just blame it on the wizard's tech ruining aura. "A wizard did it"
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Yes but if it existed as something akin to an enchanted item it wouldn't need to be maneuvered every other round it would automatically refresh itself for use since it satisfied its recharge requirement.
I'm just saying IMO that something like laser sights are automatically useful without any further effort of the user to start. Whereas "In my sights" is a direct effort or observation of the user. Once you switch that laser on it is on... until the battery runs out.
This can also be described as a declaration, but what if the player fails the declaration or maneuver in a freak accident? Does their custom pistol grip poof out of existence for a turn and pop back in when they make the declaration again? Perhaps it simply doesn't help them that turn due to extenuating circumstances the GM is now required to come up with. That makes sense I suppose, I'd be hard pressed to explain to my gun-nut player why his advanced rifling inexplicably didn't help his aim this turn though. Perhaps I'll just blame it on the wizard's tech ruining aura. "A wizard did it"
If you fail your manoeuvre then you weren't able to line up the target with your laser pointer and keep it on there for the shot.
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If you fail your manoeuvre then you weren't able to line up the target with your laser pointer and keep it on there for the shot.
That works for laser pointers sure, but what does it mean for a pistol grip maneuver to fail or advanced rifling to fail? I didn't mention lasers in the last paragraph because I'm trying to speak to the more permanent properties of firearms. How would a "reliable" maneuver fail? It doesn't make sense for some properties to turn on and off at a whim, its either always a factor or not.
I guess it would be even more interesting for a barrel to suddenly jam and become useless due to faulty rifling in a failed rifling maneuver, pretty painful to the player though. I can't come up with anything for a failed custom grip maneuver though.
I think we've violated a law of the system though. I remember reading about keeping it simple in the first place and just lumping guns into categories of 1 2 3 or 4 damage.
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Not every weapon add-on needs to be (or perhaps even should be) an aspect. Take scopes for example, all they really do is extend the rifle's accurate range. Someone who can't hit a target at 50' without a scope isn't going to be any better at 50' with a scope. Probably be worse.
Some things do make sense as aspects - Polymer Construction for example. It's only going to matter in a limited number of circumstances...and only hiding from detection systems seems immediately applicable to the game. I suppose lack of rust / corrosion might become a factor but can't see it being common.
One method of representing crafting unique weapons (weapons with aspects) is re-skinning the maneuver mechanics and using thaumaturgy's duration. For a gunsmith adding laser sights to a pistol: roll relevant craft / repair / gun skill, need at least three shifts per use per scene, add shifts for duration (next time it needs calibration, using thaumaturgy duration). You might or might not require the weapon smith to have a stunt depending on much you want this in the game.
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Not every weapon add-on needs to be (or perhaps even should be) an aspect. Take scopes for example, all they really do is extend the rifle's accurate range. Someone who can't hit a target at 50' without a scope isn't going to be any better at 50' with a scope. Probably be worse.
Some things do make sense as aspects - Polymer Construction for example. It's only going to matter in a limited number of circumstances...and only hiding from detection systems seems immediately applicable to the game. I suppose lack of rust / corrosion might become a factor but can't see it being common.
One method of representing crafting unique weapons (weapons with aspects) is re-skinning the maneuver mechanics and using thaumaturgy's duration. For a gunsmith adding laser sights to a pistol: roll relevant craft / repair / gun skill, need at least three shifts per use per scene, add shifts for duration (next time it needs calibration, using thaumaturgy duration). You might or might not require the weapon smith to have a stunt depending on much you want this in the game.
This seems the most sensible idea to me. I only worry that a player would get mod happy adding a silly amount of mods on in an effort to break things. I suppose upping the difficulty of adding subsequent mods to offset this, and if you're feeling evil you could compel it later on saying the gun is now "unbalanced" or some other mishap like a cracked frame and jamming action.
I totally agree on scopes though good call.
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I have used the gadget rules from Spirit of he Century to model such mods. The SotC SRD has more details, in short you can pay for mods/gadgets by spending stunts, buying them with Resources or building them yourself with Craftmanship. SotC defines the cost and other limits for such tricks. You need to adjust the rules a bit to match the level of weird science you want...
Would the rules in the SotC book or SRD need any tweaking for Dresden Files? I know the rules for stress are wildly different, is there anything here that could cause issue or could it just be "dragged and dropped" right in?
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The tweaking I needed was very minor: SotC uses a different skill for building stuff and the details of the gadgets are based on a pulp / weird science environment. Fix those and you are pretty much good to go - no need to scale things or anything. I can easily see some tricks Kincaid pulled in the books being modeled using those rules.
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Is there any sort of Crafting stunt or something similar needed to allow a player to build items using these rules, or can anyone with the right skill at the right level use them?
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Not every weapon add-on needs to be (or perhaps even should be) an aspect. Take scopes for example, all they really do is extend the rifle's accurate range. Someone who can't hit a target at 50' without a scope isn't going to be any better at 50' with a scope. Probably be worse.
Some things do make sense as aspects - Polymer Construction for example. It's only going to matter in a limited number of circumstances...and only hiding from detection systems seems immediately applicable to the game. I suppose lack of rust / corrosion might become a factor but can't see it being common.
One method of representing crafting unique weapons (weapons with aspects) is re-skinning the maneuver mechanics and using thaumaturgy's duration. For a gunsmith adding laser sights to a pistol: roll relevant craft / repair / gun skill, need at least three shifts per use per scene, add shifts for duration (next time it needs calibration, using thaumaturgy duration). You might or might not require the weapon smith to have a stunt depending on much you want this in the game.
I too like this idea but I will have to examine it in detail a bit more and talk to the GM of the game as well as the players in the game I run then test it out and see how it works.
A lot of the mod/aspects I'm looking at are based on the design of the individual weapon.
Some Examples;
EAA Witness 10mm Semi-Auto; Polymer Construction, Laser Sight, Reliable
Dan Wesson PPC .357 Revolver; Reliable (Revolvers rarely jam), Intimidatin' Manner (It's a big and ugly gun), Limited Ammo (revolver)
AA-12 Auto Shotgun; Full Auto-Fire. Scary as hell (Yep)
Kriss Vector Sub Machine Gun; Full Auto-Fire, Laser Sight, Silencer, High Tech (more vulnerable to hexing?)
Sniper Rifle; Long-Range, Scope, Silencer
Barrett XM-109 25mmm; Anti-Material (Bonus to hit vehicles), Long Range, Scope
Note: I don't actually expect the character to use any of these but wanted to cover a spectrum of possible examples.
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Some of those (Scary as Hell, Intimidatin' Manner, etc) look like they should be combat declarations rather than crafted weapon modifications.
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Could you not flat out make the scope a mortal stunt?
Custom Scope on old Betsy (my M16)
+1 to all gun skill rolls when shooting in a sniper or other scope approriate situation.
Only applies when using Betsy.
Seems about right when compared to "Target-rich environment".
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I too like this idea but I will have to examine it in detail a bit more and talk to the GM of the game as well as the players in the game I run then test it out and see how it works.
A lot of the mod/aspects I'm looking at are based on the design of the individual weapon.
Some Examples;
EAA Witness 10mm Semi-Auto; Polymer Construction, Laser Sight, Reliable
Dan Wesson PPC .357 Revolver; Reliable (Revolvers rarely jam), Intimidatin' Manner (It's a big and ugly gun), Limited Ammo (revolver)
AA-12 Auto Shotgun; Full Auto-Fire. Scary as hell (Yep)
Kriss Vector Sub Machine Gun; Full Auto-Fire, Laser Sight, Silencer, High Tech (more vulnerable to hexing?)
Sniper Rifle; Long-Range, Scope, Silencer
Barrett XM-109 25mmm; Anti-Material (Bonus to hit vehicles), Long Range, Scope
Note: I don't actually expect the character to use any of these but wanted to cover a spectrum of possible examples.
a EAA Witness? tsk tsk.
Why not a The Colt Delta Elite10mm 1911. Thats just fancy
For example, you forgot things you could do.
Sniper Rifle (I suggest something simple like a Remington 700 bolt action) for example, you could throw Night Vision on there or Thermal Scope (see in the dark/see things that can bend light)
The Shotguns/Pistols/Sub machine guns you forgot something simple yet useful, a flashlight.
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Well I couldn't bloody well cover everything now could I? sheesh!
Yes some of the aspects are not weapon mods but the question about applying aspects is still relevant.
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A Craftsmanship or Guns version of the Martial Artist stunt could work here, I think.
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That's not a bad idea; maybe call it Gun Enthusiast.
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where the hostage-taker would instead make a Declaration that your "shotgun is no use in a hostage situation" or some such.
Now, I just can't let this goes as such a blatant statement of fact. I mean...let's look at that hostage. Life insurance paid up? Would-be rescuer had a bad day? Foul mood perhaps?
I mean, it's established canon that shooting a hostage is perfectly acceptable and leads to promotions and Sandra Bullock goin steady...
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Craftmanship or Resources stunt "Personal Gadget" is how I do it. Using a stunt allows the character to replace the gadget for free if it is destroyed or leave a "gadget slot" open much like with the potion rules. Gadget crafting ended up resembling magic item crafting quite a lot - fate fractal at work.
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Well I couldn't bloody well cover everything now could I? sheesh!
Yes some of the aspects are not weapon mods but the question about applying aspects is still relevant.
I'd just take an aspect like "Lots of high tech stuff" and invoke it when something high tech was relevant and interesting. Fate rewards making interesting scenes. Scopes are going to interesting in that one tense sniper scene and then it's old hat.
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Craftmanship or Resources stunt "Personal Gadget" is how I do it.
Stunt names are supposed to be a little more evocative. Personally, I'd go with "I Call It Vera."
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Sure. Personal Gadget is what SotC calls it, but it's of course better to customize the stunt name based on what sort of gadget the character actually has....
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Stunt names are supposed to be a little more evocative. Personally, I'd go with "I Call It Vera."
Love the reference! Kudos Biblio. :D
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How about handing it sorta like potions? Have a stunt which is supposed to reflect modified weapons, which gives 1 ( or maybe 2) modified slots, so to say. You can do 1 of 2 things with these slots: 1. either declare at the beginning of the mission what kind of mod you have, e.g. maybe silver bullets, laser-sights, or a night-vision scope. OR you could leave it empty, and by spending a Fate point you can declare what kind of mod you have e.g. so you say we are surrounded by monsters on all sides? My assault rifle has has an extended clip which gives +2 to my weapons roll when using spray attack, take that!! Or something similar.
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That is exactly how SotC handles the stunt: you either get 3 fixed mods or 2 open mods, just like a potion. There are also guidelines on what the mods can do - mecanics-wise they look very similar to the guidelines of building new stunts, actually.