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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: FishStampede on October 10, 2012, 11:04:59 PM
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Is there any worse feedback to get? In my creative writing class today, my two peer reviewers had little of note to say about my story, other than "It's good," "I like it," "It's nice," etc. I managed to squeeze a few more helpful bits out of them, but in the end I came to the conclusion either my story is absolutely goshdarn perfect, or they're just being...nice. Maybe it's just because I had the misfortune to go first.
How can you get good, useful feedback from people?
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Do what Jim does: ask three questions.
1) What did you like about it and why? Please be specific.
2) What did you dislike it and why? Please be specific.
3) Any other comments?
And require an answer to all three.
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When I was ready to show my novel to my beta readers, I compiled the following checklist. All or some my apply:
1. Does story have flow? Do individual scenes hang together in a cohesive way?
2. What can be done to make opening scenes more compelling?
3. Are characters engaging? Which did you like/dislike, and why? Are their voices individual enough?
4. Does the overall plot make sense? Is the solution too obvious/not obvious enough?
5. Any plot holes you can drive a truck through? Inconsistencies of plot/character/continuity? Explain.
6. Do any characters behave in ways that are too stupid to live, or that seem out of character?
7. Are everyones' motivations clear and consistent, except where deliberately ambiguous?
8. Which scenes "work" for you and which don't? Why?
9. Any glaring anachronisms or factual errors?
10. Is the story suspenseful? Does it have a sense of urgency and build to a climax?
11. Is there sufficient balance between action, plot-driven, and character-driven scenes?
12. Is the overall tone consistent? Anything you find jarring and why?
13. Overall, does the story hold your attention? Do you care about the characters and what happens next?
14. Any errors of spelling and grammar?
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Actually there is worse feedback than "It's nice." IMHO: None at all. No reaction. No comments. Not even a flame. Just nothing.
But that's just from personal experience.
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Yeesh. Posting it on, say, DeviantArt I can see how yours might get lost in the shuffle, but how is that even possible for a peer review? Don't they kinda have to say something?
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I don't know what is more frustrating; receiving 'It's nice' or their anger when you actually critique their work. Ouch! Your instructor should be helping. Just remember to give back what you get. I always start gently. Creativity can be squelched far too easily. (Yeah, I know... They'll find out later that they need a thick skin...)
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Hah, that's funny. I went first in our peer review group, and then when the other people had their turn, I really tore into them. Mainly because they did have good ideas but they were executed very sloppily. One girl wrote a deeply personal autobiographical piece almost entirely in the passive voice, where she made a life changing decision with the powerful, moving line:
"The decision had been made." :o
The other girl in my group wrote poetry that I really liked, but she needed to work on her subtext. She accidentally made an ode to a beloved, deceased uncle make him sound like a drunken child molester. She was not happy when I pointed this out.
If I'd gone last, they probably would have torn into me out of pure revenge.
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One girl wrote a deeply personal autobiographical piece almost entirely in the passive voice, where she made a life changing decision with the powerful, moving line:
"The decision had been made."
What on earth is wrong with that ? Gives it a sense of power/inevitability that you just don't get by saying "I made the decision."
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Given the entire point of the piece was her struggling with making the decision, and emphasizing it was her decision, I really disliked her externalizing it like that. Turning the entire point of the work into an edict from on high just fell really flat to me. That is, of course, just my opinion.
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Actually there is worse feedback than "It's nice." IMHO: None at all. No reaction. No comments. Not even a flame. Just nothing.
I find holding their heads under water can help with this one.
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You ask in your initial post how to get good, useful information from a reader... After your, "I really tore into them. Mainly because they did have good ideas but they were executed very sloppily. One girl wrote a deeply personal autobiographical piece almost entirely in the passive voice, where she made a life changing decision with the powerful, moving line:"The decision had been made."" quote...
With an attitude like that and especially with writers who have exposed their inner thoughts to strangers, even if badly expressed, shows a huge lack of empathy on your part. Now, if you have your own cut-throat variety type group--have at it. These poor folks were probably just taking an English credit. Lighten up, my friend. Different groups have different goals and different levels of how they crit each other.
I think you need to pull back a bit. I might even apologize... When a writer is using her personal experiences, she is exploring her inner soul. Not all writers write for others. And writers have various levels of proficiency. In a new group or in a forced class crit group, your goal is to share what is right first. Then pick one or two things that, in your opinion, might improve the work and something that their skill level can accomplish with work. Writing is a journey that never ends. Your own work will grow and develop over your lifetime. What you can't see now, you might with time.
If you enjoy tearing apart someone's work in the manner that you describe and in the setting that you describe? I find that rather sadistic my friend. :-) I'm pretty sure that you didn't really express yourself in that manner, right?
My favorite quote, "Could have laughed it off and done less damage." Not a bad way to approach a critique.
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You're right. I should have been nicer to them. I do sometimes suffer from lack of empathy, and I guess I forgot how crushed I felt the first time someone gave me a brutally honest critique of my work. Maybe I felt angry because their critique was so limp, but that doesn't excuse me being a jackass. This is my first time critiquing in a classroom setting, so in the future I'll try to take a middle path.
And oooh yeah, my work has developed a lot. Just over the past year, in fact, though really that's around when I started writing for real after a long time not. My story for this class is actually a reworking of a story I wrote early this year as fanfiction, and even removing the fanfiction element, there is just no comparison between the two.
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Cool. I worried all night. Here's the thing, I love a knife fight (Bowie or scalpel) when everyone knows that's what it is going to be. In fact, you can learn a hell of a lot after one. The key thing is to leave your ego at the door. The end result of a critique is an improved work and a more enlightened writer.
Tell us how your next session goes. You may have been a bit brutal, but that isn't all bad. Just look for the one who was damaged too much as a result and withdraws, and then fix it. It ain't the end of the world.
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Is there any worse feedback to get? In my creative writing class today, my two peer reviewers had little of note to say about my story, other than "It's good," "I like it," "It's nice," etc. I managed to squeeze a few more helpful bits out of them, but in the end I came to the conclusion either my story is absolutely goshdarn perfect, or they're just being...nice. Maybe it's just because I had the misfortune to go first.
How can you get good, useful feedback from people?
There is worse criticism--"This is really good! I'd like to read more!" I got that a lot in my college workshops. Course, I also had one note "What's a brazier? Is that like a brassiere?" My experience is that it comes from a lack of experience with critiques, or not wanting to be offensive or mean. And sometimes it's that they don't understand what you're writing--e.g. they write mainstream/literary, and you write fantasy/sci-fi. Also, nonfiction, poetry, and fiction all in the same class? Unless that was the assignment, and everyone was doing that, that's not really the best thing--they don't get critiqued quite the same way, at least for me they don't.
For the most part, I ignored the critiques I got in my workshop classes--they were mostly useless, except for my poetry professor and my nonfiction professor. Though those classes are why I tend to be so extremely picky with who I do chose to beta/critique for me. I go for people that will understand the genre, so I don't have to explain every little thing, and that know how to pick out what does/doesn't work in a story. And I look for people who are good at different things--I've got one beta who's good with grammar and medical stuff, one who's good with grammar and little details and pacing, and one who's good with big picture plot and storyline. And they're all good at picking out what does/doesn't work for character.
Also--read through this link--Communicating Criticism (http://12most.com/2012/09/14/crucial-tips-when-communicating-criticism/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+12Most+(12+Most)&utm_content=Google+Reader)--it gives some pretty good advice on how to keep the criticism helpful instead of harsh, or sounding like you're trying to tell somebody how to write.
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There is worse criticism--"This is really good! I'd like to read more!"
That may not be useful from a critical point of view, but I certainly find it helps from a motivational point of view. One of these years I will finally satisfy the handful of dedicated people who've been following a project I a have mostly shelved since 1996 by going through the draft ending again and sending it to them, even though it's unsellable, because they have been good to me.
Course, I also had one note "What's a brazier? Is that like a brassiere?
Oh, ouch. In more ways than one.
My experience is that it comes from a lack of experience with critiques, or not wanting to be offensive or mean. And sometimes it's that they don't understand what you're writing--e.g. they write mainstream/literary, and you write fantasy/sci-fi. Also, nonfiction, poetry, and fiction all in the same class? Unless that was the assignment, and everyone was doing that, that's not really the best thing--they don't get critiqued quite the same way, at least for me they don't.
Indeed, and I would see there as being not very much use to getting critique from people interested in doing fundamentally different things.