Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there! He wasn't there again today, Oh how I wish he'd go away!There's a club for everyone who has spent time in the hotel Dresden.
5. Don't question the obvious. He got it because Butcher cares for canon only when it suits him. He killed every character that didn't have a magical basis. Thus Murphy and Hendricks. He had to put angels in the swords because he created a weapon that couldn't be used in a fight. Marcone needed a power up to stay relevant. So Butcher threw canon to the winds and Bob's your uncle. Marcone is officially a heavy hitter. This is the second time he has done this with the first being Butters. From zero to hero in one book and two hot werewolf babes to drive home the point. His inner fan boy has gotten a little out of control in this respect.That was my thought as well. And already Butters is managing "basics" of magic spells, right after "he didn't have a lick of talent, but used Molly to implement his theories, and Bob to power up his constructs.
On Murphy's death. There is another purpose. First she wasn't murdered, which was what the putting Harry in Rudolph's shoes is telling you. The shooting was accidental. The other is to sell you on Harry being a ruthless killer when provoked, the Destroyer so to speak. This has been going on since Storm Front, with someone there to stop him before he goes over the edge.
About Murphy's death... Well, it was the Knights of the Cross who actually helped her get in the battlefield to be with Harry, so it seems to me like the White God knew pretty well what was going to happen: that Harry would need help with the Jotun, Murphy would be the one that could help him for some reason, and that he would feel a little better with she around. TWG probably knew that she would die that night and that Harry would need help with that too, so that's why the knights remain there with him too.The shooting being accidental is irrelevant. He picked up a gun, aimed it and pulled the trigger. I still think that Harry should've burnt him into a crisp or something, and it wouldn't have anything to do with Winter either. Humans do vengeance fine on their own. Rudolph will never face justice. The only witnesses are a persona non-grata and someone with a horrible eyesight. Come to think of it, Harry always freezes when somebody aims a gun at him, and his thoughts are "I probably won't have time to put up a shield before he shoots" while the conversation lasts for minutes.
I guess it could be argued to some extent that it was TWG who set the whole thing up actually. But we'll see.
I think the scene made sense, as much as I didn't like it, it did. It was supposed to show us how Harry was so on the edge that night, and how he was very close to turn into a monster, and that was why the sword hurt him. I don't think the consequences ended that night, though, we'll see more about this whole thing in the next couple of books maybe.
On Murphy's death. There is another purpose. First she wasn't murdered, which was what the putting Harry in Rudolph's shoes is telling you. The shooting was accidental. The other is to sell you on Harry being a ruthless killer when provoked, the Destroyer so to speak. This has been going on since Storm Front, with someone there to stop him before he goes over the edge.
Michael touched the blade of Fidelacchius again, more reverently. “Angels aren’t allowed to interfere with mortals or their free will,” he said. “If you’re right, Harry . . . this blade of light is a direct expression of the will of an angel. It can’t impinge upon the free will of a mortal. It can only fight evil beings who attempt the same.”It matters not one whit that it didn't cut off his arm. Nor did Lucifer have to be involved. Harry was going to commit murder. Whatever was driving him was EVIL. Had it not been so the sword couldn't have hurt him at all. Butchers Rule.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I clenched my fists in fury, and I could feel the air crackle with tension as I prepared to destroy the lake house, the Shadowman, and any of the pathetic underlings he had with him. With such power, I could cast my defiance at the Council itself, the gathering of white-bearded old fools without foresight, without imagination, without vision. The Council, and that pathetic watchdog, Morgan, had no idea of the true depths of my strength. The energy was all there, gleeful within my anger, ready to reach out and reduce to ashes all that I hated and feared.Blood Rites
The silver pentacle that had been my mother's burned cold on my chest, a sudden weight that made me gasp. I sagged forward a little, and lifted a hand. My fingers were so tightly crushed into fists that it hurt to try to open them. My hand shook, wavered, and began to fall again.
Then something strange happened. Another hand took mine. The hand was slim, the fingers long and delicate. Feminine. The hand gently covered mine, and lifted it, like a small child's, until I held my mother's pentacle in my grasp.
I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.And something very similar in White Knight and in Grave Peril when he burns Bianca's place down.
And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.
Revenge is evil? What happened to "an eye for an eye"? I'd say that when Harry knelt and cried in shame is the part where he was out of character. The revenge part is on par.Here's a logical syllogism.
Brimstone is smelt only in two instances in the DresdenverseNeither was Lucifer unless you are saying that Harry was possessed or has picked up a coin again.
(1) when the devil and his minions are in play, and
(2) when Mouse has been fed onion rings.
Neither Mouse nor onion rings featured in that scene.
Revenge is evil?Yes, it is.
What happened to "an eye for an eye"?Justice is separate, and not evil.
I'd say that when Harry knelt and cried in shame is the part where he was out of character. The revenge part is on par.Acting out of hatred, rage, fear, etc... That's all very Sith, not at all Jedi.
The scene in Battleground when Butters and Sanya stopping Harry from killing Rudolph is a parallel of the scene in the short story "The Warrior" when Harry stops Michael from continuing to beat an unconscious Douglas (possibly killing him) after the priest had kidnapped Michael's daugher Alicia.
Would the Fidelacchius of Butters have burned Michael in that moment?
The scene in Battleground when Butters and Sanya stopping Harry from killing Rudolph is a parallel of the scene in the short story "The Warrior" when Harry stops Michael from continuing to beat an unconscious Douglas (possibly killing him) after the priest had kidnapped Michael's daugher Alicia.Apples and oranges. No one dies and Harry never has to raise a hand to Michael. Michael is angry but not out of control.
Would the Fidelacchius of Butters have burned Michael in that moment?
If Harry had killed Rudy, Harry would have considered that evil after the event, crossing a line he was not previously prepared to do, kill a mortal in cold blood, not in self-defence. That’s what Sanya and Butters was trying to prevent, Harry flipping over into being a Destroyer by his own definition.
Apples and oranges. No one dies and Harry never has to raise a hand to Michael. Michael is angry but not out of control.Um, I think you need to go back and reread "The Warrior." Michael was proceeding to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat. A baseball bat can be a lethal weapon in the hands of anyone, especially a strong trained warrior like Michael. No one died because Harry was able to stop Michael from killing him. Michael says that, heck Uriel says that, because Michael was out of control and would have killed Father Douglas. It wasn't," well, I will wack him here and there to teach him a lesson", no, in that moment Michael wanted to kill him and would have. The "control blows" in contrast was when Harry wacked Cassius, broke his knee and ankle I believe, but didn't try to kill him.
In the real world this is the type of anger you see when a man kills his wife because of some perceived slight. It's irrational. When you get the internal view of what Rudolph is thinking he feels disgust and revulsion at what he has done. Harry feels joy watching Rudolph die. Feeling the bones breaking. Watching as Rudolph urinates on himself out of fear. The abject superiority of his vision of hate versus both Sanya's and Butter's.
I have just finished rereading Battleground.. I was less impressed with it the second time around, but many of my original sore points are the same. I don't know if anyone posted the answers before..
1. Who were the older wardens of Demonreach? And how did they trap beings that according to Harry, were much stronger than Ethniu? And when? And what exactly is stronger than a Titan?
2 .How did Justine get super-strength? There wasn't any mention of that in earlier possessions by Nemesis.
3. In Turncoat, Justine told the captain of the wardens about Thomas being Harry's brother. Effectively putting itself at risk of losing a favorable position in the White Court. Also in ghost story, Uriel shows Thomas and Justine to Harry, assuring him that his brother will be alright. So the archangel didn't know? Which makes me think that "Justine being Nemfected" wasn't in Jim's plan back then. It lacks consistency.
4. Why, after a few chapters of telling us that the Winter Knight's office was created to actually manifest a banner and lead troops in battle, do we find Marcone manifesting a banner as well?
5. How the hell did Marcone get enough juice to stand off a Titan for a few minutes when all other gods and immortals lost in a couple of seconds? Marcone was always purely vanilla. Zero magical ability. Yet he picks up a coin with a sorcery sensie fallen angel and he becomes a wizard? Older evidence suggests that it doesn't work like that. I remember in Death Masks Jim said that "over centuries, even a small scale talent develops teeth". Marcone didn't have that to start with. And he only had the coin for a few years.
Finally, and this is not a question: I never liked Murphy as a character, and I'm glad she's finally dead, but the scene with the knights stopping Harry from making a Rudolph Burger - and Harry crying afterwards and regretting attacking him- is just horrible and overblown. I mean.. His gf was shot dead in front of him, he can do something about it, I think this is the time to start cutting off bits of Rudolph, and it's quite childish to expect otherwise.
I liked the scene at the end of the movie "Seven" much better. Much more believable.
Here's a logical syllogism.The sword can only work against the swords definition of evil. Now you get into the discussion if absolute evil exist and if there is absolute morality.
If Butcher says the sword can only work against evil.
and it works against Harry
Then Harry was evil when the sword struck.
Seems clear enough. Take it up with the angel in the sword or Butcher, whichever you run across first.Neither was Lucifer unless you are saying that Harry was possessed or has picked up a coin again.
The sword can only work against the swords definition of evil. Now you get into the discussion if absolute evil exist and if there is absolute morality.
Some religions tell us that there is absolute morality but in practice moralities in different cultures differ.
The sword can only work against the swords definition of evil. Now you get into the discussion if absolute evil exist and if there is absolute morality.I'm not interested in the concept of absolute morality. I'm interested in what Butcher wrote. And he states it explicitly.
Some religions tell us that there is absolute morality but in practice moralities in different cultures differ.
I'm not interested in the concept of absolute morality. I'm interested in what Butcher wrote. And he states it explicitly.From the swords point of view. I think Jim uses both concepts.
From the swords point of view. I think Jim uses both concepts.
... Another thing to note is that we actually don't know that Marcone had no magical talent prior. According to Jim, any human can learn magic. Namshiel clearly helped Marcone fast-track, and Marcone is FAR more driven and organised than Harry, so I can imagine he has spent far more time developing than Harry has in recent years (given Harry has been on the back foot and learning on the go for the same period). But suppose for a second Marcone actually has always had magical talent. It would change everything. I mean, he knew EXACTLY what a soul gaze was in Storm Front. He actually got the better of Harry in that moment. And if you examine the language that Jim uses with Marcone over the years he often says things like "He pulled out a knife so fast it appeared as if by magic" and such. This is a writing technique. Now he might be just saying Marcone is exceptionally quick. But considering how often he has said that...it is quite possible he was hinting Marcone was actually magically inclined. It's a reinforcement/foreshadowing thing. And Marcone works in the shadows, unlike Harry. He would make damn sure most don't know about that hidden talent. It's an ace up the sleeve. Think about how long he managed to keep his status as a Knight of the Blackened Denarius secret, that he was the bearer of Thorned Namshiel's Coin.
... It's no accident that Jim wrote the Jedi-Sith moment with Harry firing lightning at Butters (like a Sith) and Butter's using his Fidelacchius (in lightsabre form) to deflect it - it's a clear reference. And Harry is the Sith Lord in the scene ...
... And Harry is the Sith Lord in the scene. He has likened himself to Darth Vader in the past. And like Vader, his emotions often get the benefit of him and he is prepared to meet out harsh vengeance on those he believes are evil and have wronged him ...I feel stupid now...
But Harry is not normal now, is he?@ Mira: Didn't Marcone pull him out of the water in Death Masks? They've had so much contact with each other, and been in a lot of fights together.
@Yuillegan: #6: exactly. Harry has killed a lot of people. In dead beat he shot Luccio in the back of her head, and killed the Denarian in cold blood, he was no threat, but he killed him as punishment. And Uriel indirectly condoned it later on by saying that he sent an incipient knight of the cross for help.No exactly true as far as Luccio goes, it was her body but she no longer occupied it, the Corpstaker did.
... Edit: I think Luccio's block is mental, not physical. Corpsetaker seems able to efficiently use his magic regardless of the body. At least in dead beat. In ghost story that changed a bit, but he still said that it was "workable".
That doesn't make Marcone a practitioner, Harry and Michael have been in more fights together. Harry would have seen it in his soul gaze with Marcone when he first met him...
That doesn't make Marcone a practitioner ...Notwithstanding my arguments above -- you're right. None of that argument, nor anything in the books (that I recall), "makes Marcone a practitioner."
Hmm. Did Harry ever shake hands (or otherwise have skin/skin contact, including a slap or a punch or etc?) with Marcone? He rescued Marcone a couple of times; did it happen then?You're most welcome, but you shouldn't feel stupid. There is so much content we all miss things, I certainly find others making connections or noticing tidbits that I wouldn't.
I don't actually recall any such...
I was going to disagree with you, but... this element suggests you may be correct. I expect Marcone has a good enough "read" on Harry to know Harry would find "handshake from a crime-lord" offensive (and therefore would do so!) ... unless he was protecting this particular secret.
I mean, the case for "Marcone was always a practitioner" is hardly proven! But it looks like a solid, credible theory.
(Add in the "corpsetaker" facts, (a) that she was looking for a "suitable" body to be able to properly express her own talents, & (b) that Luccio couldn't make swords in the new body (even though it apparently had SOME magical talent, or the corpsetaker wouldn't have been wearing it). So Marcone having (at least some) inherent talent seems a likely explanation for Namshiel being able to so quickly do the power-up.
I feel stupid now...
I hadn't put these two in conjunction before.
TYVM!
@Yuillegan: #6: exactly. Harry has killed a lot of people. In dead beat he shot Luccio in the back of her head, and killed the Denarian in cold blood, he was no threat, but he killed him as punishment. And Uriel indirectly condoned it later on by saying that he sent an incipient knight of the cross for help.I think it's a stretch to say that Harry's execution of Corpsetaker in Luccio's body was condoned by Uriel. I don't really see how Uriel (or more likely, The White God himself) sending Butters (an incipient Knight of the Cross) to save Harry from an ex-Denarian (Quintus Cassius "Snakeboy") earlier in Dead Beat is condoning Harry's actions that had not yet occurred.
The point is, the emotional reaction after getting burned by the sword is not very believable. It might have been if Harry was a normal man, and a pacifist and perhaps a member of PETA, but even a normal man who's never killed before won't be crying in shame, he'll be furious, but maybe understanding that he's either beaten and can't get on with the task or that it's morally wrong, so he'll grudgingly concede and maybe skullstomp the killer a little bit.
But Harry is not normal now, is he?@ Mira: Didn't Marcone pull him out of the water in Death Masks? They've had so much contact with each other, and been in a lot of fights together.
Edit: I think Luccio's block is mental, not physical. Corpsetaker seems able to efficiently use his magic regardless of the body. At least in dead beat. In ghost story that changed a bit, but he still said that it was "workable".
That doesn't make Marcone a practitioner, Harry and Michael have been in more fights together. Harry would have seen it in his soul gaze with Marcone when he first met him.Would he have? I mean, Jim has said all that soul gazes reveal is truth. But they don't reveal everything. McCoy even said they are not good lie-detectors. And Marcone was prepared for the encounter. Perhaps he also prepared to hide things. Who knows?
If Marcone is using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel then Butcher has broken canon over his knee. Even if he picked up the coin in the helicopter you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. But it's Butchers book and he can do as he pleases.I am unsure what you mean about Marcone using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel. I don't think Namshiel could use a host that couldn't do any sort of magic though. Remember, the Fallen can boost but cannot change mortals. Otherwise they abrogate free will. I, at least, am suggesting that Marcone's current magical display could be explained by a combination of his own magical talent and learning prior to connecting with Namshiel, and then being tutored and schooled and empowered for years by the magical expert of the Denarians (the Fallen Angel Namshiel).
Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered. Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline. A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.
Butcher had to show Harry getting emotional relief for the events. If he doesn't break down then the passage serves absolutely no purpose. He has to show remorse and grief. And the reader has to understand the why. He goes through a lot of effort in Peace Talks preparing for this moment.
Remember why Corpsetaker need a powerful wizard in Ghost Story.
Unless Namshiel knows something Corpsetaker doesn’t.I think it's a given Namshiel knows a hell of a lot more than Corpsetaker (pun intended). But I doubt the bloodline thing can be circumvented, given the power blood has in the series and the importance of mortals.
Yeah I think Butcher broke canon. Marcone shouldn't be able to use magic at that level but as I said it's Butchers book. The alternate forms do a lot of magic. And Marcone shows the stigmata(the eyes and the mark) when they are underwater.It's something he does every now and then. Sometimes it's frustrating, and it often causes disagreements online (oh the horror), but mostly it doesn't matter to me. He's human, he's bound to change his mind or forget things or just make plain old errors. I admit, as the series has gone on more canon-breaking moments have happened and it appears to be becoming more of an issue. I know he cleverly hinted that it might be intentional (which certainly helps get the monkey off his back...for a while), but I am not so sure how much is intentional and how much are genuine mistakes. Hopefully he will find a clever way to rectify most of it (hoping for all of it is madness).
Harry preaches often enough about the sanctity of his magic. The whole paradigm of the books is that you don't use magic to kill mortals. Either it's BS or it isn't. Harry didn't launch the curse at Chichen Itza. And he murdered Susan by tricking her into turning. And even then he used a knife. Personally I think the Destroyer put some spin on it but that's just me.
Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered. Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline. A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.
Yeah I think Butcher broke canon. Marcone shouldn't be able to use magic at that level but as I said it's Butchers book. The alternate forms do a lot of magic. And Marcone shows the stigmata(the eyes and the mark) when they are underwater.
If Marcone is using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel then Butcher has broken canon over his knee. Even if he picked up the coin in the helicopter you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. But it's Butchers book and he can do as he pleases.Lea explained that. Because just like Harry she was dead.
Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered. Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline. A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.
Butcher had to show Harry getting emotional relief for the events. If he doesn't break down then the passage serves absolutely no purpose. He has to show remorse and grief. And the reader has to understand the why. He goes through a lot of effort in Peace Talks preparing for this moment.
Remember why Corpsetaker need a powerful wizard in Ghost Story.
@ Mira: Didn't Marcone pull him out of the water in Death Masks? They've had so much contact with each other, and been in a lot of fights together.No, he used the shroud. They didn't touch.
... He may not get convicted of murder, but he can be tried and even convicted of either negligent homicide or manslaughter.
You're most welcome, but you shouldn't feel stupid. There is so much content we all miss things, I certainly find others making connections or noticing tidbits that I wouldn't.
I hadn't considered the need of the correct body before, but that is an excellent point. Jim said in an interview that in order to be a wizard the bloodline is important, otherwise you just end up a sorcerer. Considering Harry's potential bloodline it's no wonder Harry is so potent. We know next to nothing about Marcone...but we do have a lot of references to him making an excellent monarch in a past era. I wonder if Butcher is foreshadowing Marcone's own bloodline.
Off the top of my head, no they haven't. In point of fact, I do recall Harry explicitly avoiding taking Marcone's hand in the Raith Deeps. I would have to read through all their interactions to be sure, but I suspect that Marcone and Harry have never had skin-to-skin contact.
I think it's a stretch to say that Harry's execution of Corpsetaker in Luccio's body was condoned by Uriel. I don't really see how Uriel (or more likely, The White God himself) sending Butters (an incipient Knight of the Cross) to save Harry from an ex-Denarian (Quintus Cassius "Snakeboy") earlier in Dead Beat is condoning Harry's actions that had not yet occurred.
Harry's reaction after being burned by Fidelacchius can be explained in two ways. Firstly, if you go back to Skin Game where Harry sees Uriel's halo burn with holy light, and it reminds him of every shameful act in his life, one could infer that similar holy power might have a similar effect (i.e. Fidelacchius's contact with Dresden broke his rage and showed him the truth - his actions and rage were immoral). After all, Jesus did say turn the other cheek. I would imagine that The White God of the Dresden Files has a similar moral code (considering there is a Saviour in the Dresden Files - Harry uses several artefacts associated with him). Consider that Harry has a sort-of forced empathy for Rudy in this moment. He is forced to see some of Rudy's soul, and to see how Rudy sees him. Murphy wasn't a murderer. She believed in the law. And as much as she hated Rudolph, she would not want Harry to break the law and commit an extrajudicial killing for her (at least, on a rational level). Had Harry murdered Rudy, he quite possibly would have gone to jail. Killing a cop has consequences. And Harry wasn't acting in self-defence (or defence of another). And I doubt Harry banging on about magical reasons would have helped his case (have you seen many court cases that clear cop killers?). Not to mention that once Harry starts down the path of murdering people, humans specifically, that becomes a slippery slope. And that doesn't even take into account what happens when magic (the power of creation) is used to do it. Harry was also risking becoming a warlock.
The second way to explain Harry's reaction is that Harry wasn't just mad or furious, he was in grief. His anguish at Murphy's sudden death was overwhelming. And once he had moved beyond his rage he was devastated by losing her. This is the women he was currently in love with, had loved for over a decade, and wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. Not surprising really then he felt such terrible sadness at her devastating loss. Regardless of how anyone feels about the character of Murphy, Dresden clearly loves her.
Marcone may have pulled Dresden out of the water...but Harry already knows that Marcone can do magic at this point. So why would he comment on any sort of "spark"? It's prior to Battle Ground that the contact is important. Prior specifically to the reveal.
But perhaps there is another passage earlier in the series that shows contact.
The body issue is a matter of having a body with enough magical connection. As I said above, Jim mentioned that to be a wizard the bloodline is important. So some bodies are better than others.
Would he have? I mean, Jim has said all that soul gazes reveal is truth. But they don't reveal everything. McCoy even said they are not good lie-detectors. And Marcone was prepared for the encounter. Perhaps he also prepared to hide things. Who knows?
It is true we don't know what level Marcone was prior to receiving a Coin. I would note that particular Fallen in the Coin is known to be a magical theory expert. But I think it isn't unreasonable to guess that Marcone may have had more magic than he let on. Now whether that was at Victor Sells level, or Madge's level, or even just the level of one of the Ordo Lebes/Paranetters, or even just one of those types that visit Mac's we don't know. My guess is probably Madge's level to Kravos or Sells. But it is just a guess. I don't think there is any strong evidence in the earlier books that Marcone has magic, or displays anything but subtle magic at best. But there are a few strange things around him as many have commented on. And he did know about the supernatural long before he met Dresden. I just don't think we can rule out the possibility just yet.
I think @g33k hits the nail on the head that we don't have proof. But the point around here is to speculate after all.
I am unsure what you mean about Marcone using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel. I don't think Namshiel could use a host that couldn't do any sort of magic though. Remember, the Fallen can boost but cannot change mortals. Otherwise they abrogate free will. I, at least, am suggesting that Marcone's current magical display could be explained by a combination of his own magical talent and learning prior to connecting with Namshiel, and then being tutored and schooled and empowered for years by the magical expert of the Denarians (the Fallen Angel Namshiel).
Also, is it precisely one mortal with magic? Because I am pretty sure he burned Bianca's house down and several mortal bodies were burned up. Not to mention the Fomor Servitors (Turtlenecks) that he fireballs in Battle Ground. Now if you're referring to Justin, I am not even sure he did in fact murder him. That wasn't even proven in the White Council. We now know they had plenty of other reasons to put the Doom of Damocles on Harry, and the apparent murder was a convenient excuse. I also am curious about the half-bloods Harry killed (the half Red Court vampires) with the bloodline curse. That curse was serious dark magic. Not so sure that won't count either.
I agree about why Butcher had to show Harry's emotional turmoil, and the reasons Corpsetaker needed a powerful host.
I think it's a given Namshiel knows a hell of a lot more than Corpsetaker (pun intended). But I doubt the bloodline thing can be circumvented, given the power blood has in the series and the importance of mortals.
It's something he does every now and then. Sometimes it's frustrating, and it often causes disagreements online (oh the horror), but mostly it doesn't matter to me. He's human, he's bound to change his mind or forget things or just make plain old errors. I admit, as the series has gone on more canon-breaking moments have happened and it appears to be becoming more of an issue. I know he cleverly hinted that it might be intentional (which certainly helps get the monkey off his back...for a while), but I am not so sure how much is intentional and how much are genuine mistakes. Hopefully he will find a clever way to rectify most of it (hoping for all of it is madness).
Do the alternate (demonic) forms wield more magic than the human forms? I hadn't really noticed that. Not saying it isn't the case but that would be curious. I don't know why that would make a difference.What do you mean by "the Destroyer put some spin on it"? It sounds interesting but I am not sure I follow.(click to show/hide)
plural noun: stigmataDepending on how you define magic the Denarian's use it constantly. The classic example is that they are immortal in either form. If you mean that they don't throw fireballs then you're right, but that is merely a nod to the fact that there are only so many ways to represent magic in prose.
1.
a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person.
"the stigma of having gone to prison will always be with me"
Except that it appears that the officials won't have a body.
Any charges at all are exceedingly unlikely (sadly).
Honestly, the Marcone-always-had-some-magic-theory makes sense to me. I have always found it weird, how well he managed everything in the magical world and how he knew so much and so on. He didn't fit into the story IMHO. But with him being a secret practitioner it actually makes sense. Maybe he was just a one sided talent like Mortimer and his ectomancy, but in his way one of the best. Not council level but no lightweight either.
On Chichen Itza there is a two minute span where Harry blanks out. It's meaningful because it is otherwise unnecessary. I suppose this is what they call Chekov's Gun.
I think ID Harry or alternate Harry may not be as squeamish as our Harry and gave the curse a hard push with whatever Butcher is concealing about what Harry is.I think HarryPrime has too much mental discipline for it to be that... But we'll probably see, I guess!
You may be right. I don't think so but I am not Butcher. So it's a personal bias. On Reddit there has been some talk that he's told the betas that it will all come out in the end.
If we all live long enough to see it... It may all come out, but that doesn't mean it will be satisfactory.. ::)
Mab gives Harry the norovirus, the “Winter vomiting bug”?
Depending on how you define magic the Denarian's use it constantly. The classic example is that they are immortal in either form. If you mean that they don't throw fireballs then you're right, but that is merely a nod to the fact that there are only so many ways to represent magic in prose.
I'm saying something at a lower level. Butcher made magic a use it or lose it affair. And he used it in a fairly prominent way. He justifies Molly's talent and Charity's lack of talent using this device. You can always say that Marcone had latent powers, but by canon you use them or lose them. Marcone isn't particularly old but he's closer to Charity's age then to Molly's. This at least suggests that Butcher is using deceit to further the story versus having a coherent vision. For theory crafters there are some other implications as well. Take Malcolm. The fact that Eb said that he was a mortal is now meaningless. Because if Harry could miss Marcone, Eb could have missed something similar about Malcolm.
Susan triggered the curse when Harry murdered her. This is one of those arbitrary points in the story where Butcher uses the distinction to keep Harry from using magic to murder directly. He can cut Susan's throat but he can't strike her down with lightening.
On Chichen Itza there is a two minute span where Harry blanks out. It's meaningful because it is otherwise unnecessary. I suppose this is what they call Chekov's Gun. I think ID Harry or alternate Harry may not be as squeamish as our Harry and gave the curse a hard push with whatever Butcher is concealing about what Harry is.
Proceed on the idea that Marcone- or even all mortals- have a small amount of talent (hence why rituals like Raith's canned summoning works). Say further that they can't develop it in a useful way because they lack the Sight. Further, developing skills takes confidence in possibility and the ability to refine the skill- when you first break a board you are using a lot more unfocused force and energy than you will in 10 or 20 years, even if you are less objectively strong by that point.I don't think we know, or should assume, Marcone is "very weak". Weaker than Harry in magical might, sure. But we don't know how much weaker he is than most. This is without adding Hellfire into the equation, and we know that adds a lot of muscle. Raw strength versus effective strength has also been shown to be a consideration. You can have incredible strength but if you're not efficient/effective at using it, it hardly matters. A classic example is Uriel versus Nicodemus. Uriel can end galaxies, universes. Yet is powerless to act against Nicodemus directly. So in many situations, Nicodemus is effectively stronger. In wizard terms, Harry has always had a big tank but the more efficient wizards get far more bang for their buck - Carlos is a great comparison in this. Where Marcone falls on the gradient is unclear, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume he is low-powered. As you point out, he is has clearly had enough training to be highly efficient and effective. His biggest lack is experience, and he is gaining ground quickly.
By that analogy, Namshiel is providing certainty that things are possible, the sensor suite to observe what Marcone is doing when he manipulates eldritch energies, and possibly through "VR training" giving Marcone the refinement of a lot of practice in a short span of time. Consider Marcone's shields. Very weak- to me, that represented how weak his ability at magic is compared to Harry's. He then used it with maximum cleverness and efficiency. The teapot dome? Namshiel slows time from Marcone's perspective, he works on tiny bits at a time that represent the maximum he can move, but he objectively does it so fast it is like he has expanded massive power quickly. He hasn't- instead of lifting the entire crate of sand in one mighty heave, he made the equivalent of millions of tweezer trips in seconds.
To me, emphasizing the weakness of Marcone's shields- and that he compensated by just stacking them as rapidly as possible for a kind of disintegrating defense-in-depth- was exactly what I'd expect of a low-powered but highly knowledgeable theoretician. He did the big effect (powerful effective shielding) with barely any use of energy (because he's very weak).
Regarding the burning- technically Harry didn't do anything to Bianca. He poured his mystic might into the ghosts of her victims like a loan, allowing them to have enough mystic energy to affect the physical world. That's why it neither violated the Laws nor the Accords. Harry didn't do anything to Bianca or her guests- he gave her prior victims the ability to do so. So no Accorded curbstomping of the White Council. A brilliant White Court vampire-style solution.
Killing Fomor minions with magic is a fascinating question, though. Once modified, are they still human? Are there any without at least gills? When does backlash occur? If you throw a fireball at someone, and they get capped seconds before your fireball hits, do you backlash? Or is it when you gather your power to kill? If you blast in a door with air or force, and an elderly gentleman has a heart attack from the noise, does that count?
Depending on how you define magic the Denarian's use it constantly. The classic example is that they are immortal in either form. If you mean that they don't throw fireballs then you're right, but that is merely a nod to the fact that there are only so many ways to represent magic in prose.I think the transformation the Denarians use is essentially the same as Werewolves like the Alphas use i.e. a single spell. From memory, the type of lupine theriomorph the Alphas are is just considered a classic werewolf. This is like a wizard who knows just one spell (how to become a wolf and turn back into a human again). Beyond that, most of what we have seen from Denarians is just sorcery i.e. destructive magic.
I'm saying something at a lower level. Butcher made magic a use it or lose it affair. And he used it in a fairly prominent way. He justifies Molly's talent and Charity's lack of talent using this device. You can always say that Marcone had latent powers, but by canon you use them or lose them. Marcone isn't particularly old but he's closer to Charity's age then to Molly's. This at least suggests that Butcher is using deceit to further the story versus having a coherent vision. For theory crafters there are some other implications as well. Take Malcolm. The fact that Eb said that he was a mortal is now meaningless. Because if Harry could miss Marcone, Eb could have missed something similar about Malcolm.
Susan triggered the curse when Harry murdered her. This is one of those arbitrary points in the story where Butcher uses the distinction to keep Harry from using magic to murder directly. He can cut Susan's throat but he can't strike her down with lightening.
On Chichen Itza there is a two minute span where Harry blanks out. It's meaningful because it is otherwise unnecessary. I suppose this is what they call Chekov's Gun. I think ID Harry or alternate Harry may not be as squeamish as our Harry and gave the curse a hard push with whatever Butcher is concealing about what Harry is.
He never struck me as having any magical talent at all. Nor did he need it, he is a very clever coldHe might have been shocked because it was a 6'9" angry wizard who was a lot stronger than him, and not many had the balls (or insanity) to attack him openly in his territory. He also just could have been scared. After all, Harry has scared plenty of magical humans and monsters too. And I think it's clear that Marcone DOES need magic, otherwise why would Jim write it in? Marcone could hardly be expected to survive all the supernatural encounters he has just vanilla. He's always had more on the ball than most expected. Not to mention, his heavyweight showdown with Harry has been on the cards since Storm Front.
predatory crime boss. He began to lust for the power of the supernatural world the minute he witnessed Harry blowing the doors of his night club. A guy with real magical talent wouldn't have been shocked, Marcone was.. So he began his quest to acquire as much as he could, even though he was a mere vanilla human, he had amassed a great deal of influence and power[not the magical kind] that he used to great effect in bargaining with the supernatural world. He couldn't do magic so bought and surrounded himself with magical talent, he tried to buy Harry if you will remember and Harry refused. Now Marcone claimed to respect him for it, but who knows. Harry also made use of Marcone when he could as payment for pulling his goodies out of the fire in the case of the Loop and on Demonreach. Then the relationship started to fall apart when Marcone wouldn't help him in Changes. Then when Namshiel's coin fell into his lap in Small Favor, it presented a temptation that ultimately Marcone couldn't turn away from. Though he may live to regret it, as the old Chinese curse says,"be careful for what you wish for, you may get it."
The idea behind why Mab was so bound and determined to have Harry as her Knight has probably changed over the course of the series. The current answer might be that she knew why Harry was created.All interesting points. I like it. So to be clear, the theory is that Harry's whole life is a time loop around the end of the world? Perhaps all of human history? Essentially an ontological paradox?
My crack theory that she became Mab to make sure that he can do what he will need to do. Whatever that might be.
Take the marriage to Lara. Mab says decisions she made while mortal keep her from marrying Lara. In my crack scenario she couldn't do it because she knows Harry has to. And she knows this because someone told her.
There are other things going on in the background as well.
Vadderung suggesting that this has all happened before, when he says that perhaps Harry had already kept the incursion on Demonreach from releasing the prisoners. This suggests a possible once through time loop.
Vadderung telling Harry Margaret's location so Harry can go and rescue her and then accepting no payment.
Members of the Senior Council so badly frightened that they will not explain what's going on.
Butcher introducing the idea that Alfred is concealing something.
Bonea as a new talking head.
This is my crack theory. Yours might be better and if so I may embrace it and take it to heart.
All time travel stories are paradoxical by definition since they break causality. If Harry is going to time travel and Butcher says he is, and if he is going to change things, then he has to explain the paradox since he directly pointed it out.In a nutshell why I don't like time travel stories. I like causality.
If his intent is to merely fix continuity errors he can use the dazzle them with footwork technique. Spielberg did this in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he has Indy hide on a submarine in broad daylight in the middle of the Med. He then ramps up the action and never gives you a chance to question it. That's one way and I would be okay with that.
He seems to have something more substantive in mind. I don't know the why but I think he's telling us how. His chosen path seems to be a branching history. This is Mirror Mirror in a nutshell. So if he is in a time loop, the idea may be that he has not returned to the future he comes from. The Dresden time line that we see doesn't contain Harry Prime. That the reality the DFiles takes place in, isn't the the reality it started from.
What I would suspect if this were true, is that eventually Harry Prime ended up in a place where things are falling apart. And goes back from the end of the world to loop through again to try and stop it. But this timeline is a product of the loop. This is classic time travel fodder. So in this scenario the Harry we see isn't Harry Prime. Harry Prime is either dead somewhere in the past or hidden somewhere.
Only Harry is aware that Elaine is nearly as strong as him, the lazy White Council are relying upon Carlos assessment, as being too weak for the White Council. Carlos and his judgements on attractive women should not be trusted. I wonder if he reported back on the Molly incident?Well, as far as we know. If Cowl were on the White Council he would know about Elaine's real strength (along with whatever other agents that may exist, who may know of her). Carlos is an admittedly poor judge.
Carlos will almost certainly try to reign in Elaine on orders of the White Council only to find to his horror, she is both much more powerful and more technically gifted (due to her tuition in Summer) than he is. It will not go well for Carlos psyche.
All time travel stories are paradoxical by definition since they break causality. If Harry is going to time travel and Butcher says he is, and if he is going to change things, then he has to explain the paradox since he directly pointed it out.I agree, some type of paradox has occured...somwhere. It would surprise me to learn Harry isn't one...
If his intent is to merely fix continuity errors he can use the dazzle them with footwork technique. Spielberg did this in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he has Indy hide on a submarine in broad daylight in the middle of the Med. He then ramps up the action and never gives you a chance to question it. That's one way and I would be okay with that.
He seems to have something more substantive in mind. I don't know the why but I think he's telling us how. His chosen path seems to be a branching history. This is Mirror Mirror in a nutshell. So if he is in a time loop, the idea may be that he has not returned to the future he comes from. The Dresden time line that we see doesn't contain Harry Prime. That the reality the DFiles takes place in, isn't the the reality it started from.
What I would suspect if this were true, is that eventually Harry Prime ended up in a place where things are falling apart. And goes back from the end of the world to loop through again to try and stop it. But this timeline is a product of the loop. This is classic time travel fodder. So in this scenario the Harry we see isn't Harry Prime. Harry Prime is either dead somewhere in the past or hidden somewhere.
I agree, Morty would be of wizard level, only a bit below Molly, but his talents and affinities run so clearly into the spirit, even more so than Molly, he would be tarred with necromancer brush, he would fake being weaker, and still manage to get on Morgan’s shit list. Wizard of Ghosts?
There may indeed be several Wizard Level talents who are going to be very interested in seeing what the White Council do with Harry publicly declaring himself the Wizard of Chicago. We might see others declaring themselves the Wizard of something or other
Or joining Harry to make a Council of their own.. When you think how Wardens go around nabbing young possible future warlocks and lopping their heads off, and yet we know of at least two very talented wizards the go unnoticed.. Just how competent is the White Council?I think it is heading to something like this. Yet truly, I think a lot of Harry doesn't want there to be a large White Council. I think as much as anything, Harry wants people to be left alone to look after themselves. The problem is when others start to form larger groups to take on those smaller than them...then you either must try and beat them yourself or join them or die or run away. So you run into the issue of making a governing body too small (i.e. it allows larger groups to form and dictate things). Because groups will inevitably form one way or another. A nation of individuals isn't a nation if you don't unify enough. But too much of it lessens the importance of the individual, which has it's own problems.
More likely to join the Paranet, get themselves certified as a wizard by Harry (who was recognised for years by the White Council), and set up shop. Harry needs to get the Paranet set up as an Accorded Nation, he doesn’t need to recreate the White Council with all its flawsI don't really get the point of setting up the Paranet as an Accorded Nation. Yes, they gain status and a measure of protection. But they also are then on the radar of bigger threats as well. Can you imagine witches like those Ordo Lebes practioners trying to mediate a dispute between the White Council and the Summer Court? Or Ferrovax and Drakul? Or Marcone and Harry? They just are not really at that level. They would need a sponsor far mightier than Harry, like some old god, and that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for them.
They would have to become members of Winter, like Toot and his band did. I don’t see many volunteers despite the sterling job Harry has done selling the proposition. Like having himself shot.
The point is a far wider membership than just wizards.
... On Reddit there has been some talk that he's told the betas that it will all come out in the end.
Membership of the Accords would protect the members from the depredations of other Members or face the wrath of Mab.
The White Council could not hunt down and execute ‘warlocks’ openly who are members of an accorded nation, Winter could not prey on them. The Black Court, the Denarians and the Fomor would incite Article 4 should they attack them.
The benefit? The Accorded Nations can point to a relatively large base of ‘normal’ humans and say to the rest of humanity “look we support and protect you, just like we did with Chicago” it’s an essential step in opening up the Supernatural. The White Council is too small and unrepresentative to do this. It’s an elite and very happy about that thank you.
I'm pretty sure Mab isn't that proactive about the Accords.
If you can't maintain your own position when the standard predators come sniffing around -- and they will! -- you probably shouldn't have signed on in the first place.
Mab approves of predators culling the weak.
It's very Winter!
Membership of the Accords would protect the members from the depredations of other Members or face the wrath of Mab.
The White Council could not hunt down and execute ‘warlocks’ openly who are members of an accorded nation, Winter could not prey on them. The Black Court, the Denarians and the Fomor would incite Article 4 should they attack them.
The benefit? The Accorded Nations can point to a relatively large base of ‘normal’ humans and say to the rest of humanity “look we support and protect you, just like we did with Chicago” it’s an essential step in opening up the Supernatural. The White Council is too small and unrepresentative to do this. It’s an elite and very happy about that thank you.