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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: gawime on September 30, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
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Yes battleground was action packed. Yes battleground had interesting reveals. But peace talks/battleground was also dumb.
Exhibit A) Thomas. If Justine is nemfected, in what way does throwing your life away help in any way shape or form. Even if it was just a gambit to buy some time, he didn’t tell anyone about the situation, so how can he reasonably expect his child and love to be saved? Thomas is many things, but not dumb. A big part of the plot hinges on Thomas being dumb.
Exhibit B) Thomas ending up in Demonreach. This is an odd turn to say the least. We have never seen a wampire that’s alive yet unable to heal itself. Basically if they’re alive they’re healing. That’s been true the entire series. But suddenly Thomas is dying, and Harry’s solution is to entomb how at Demonreach? That’s gimmicky. And a serious contingency of nemesis’ plan is for Thomas to end up entombed there. That just doesn’t track.
Exhibit C) Harry’s conjuritis or whatever it’s called. What point did this serve? It’s a weird tonal shift. And it’s extremely odd Harry’s never heard of it. And it doesn’t seem to tax Harry. If he can be dropping 1000 pound anvils on blampires, why doesn’t he do that instead of inneffectively yelling “forzare”
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And apparently Alfred can't handle an Outsider?
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well...
A - Justine was pregnant...a pregnant lover can make people do incredibly dumb things. Basically he was being blackmailed, "I'll kill this body and unborn child unless you perform an assassination. If you do, I will let them both go." - I've seen movies with that plot, basically.
B - I thought they had established there were certain circumstances where a vampire could essentially be unable to heal themselves and die from wounds and so, a stasis pod isn't out of line thinking. They do that with people, put them on the blood bypasses while they try to look for answers to save them. Still, I do agree with you some here, gimmicky and ultimately par of the plan for Nemfected Justine to get not he island.
C- It was definitely a plot device and poorly placed and used. I'm in total agreement with you there. 100%.
Alfred - It could be he might have trouble fighting an Outsider that was INVITED onto the island, even if that guest right was revoked before Harry got incapacitated somehow. Think The Trojan Horse. Can't breach the walls? sneak inside and open the gates.
Not his worst book, but definitely not his best either. The split hurt the book a bit, it feels like chunks of some stuff were missing, especially at the end. It felt a bit rushed, so I wonder where it will pick up at the next book.
(I'm looking at you Butcher - for not mentioning Mister at all in the aftermath)
I'm unhappy about Murphy...I think he was just starting to write her well again only to take her out. I knew it had to happen of course, because of her mortality and wounds mostly sidelining her. Some people aren't the type to go quietly. I actually saw how it was going to be Rudolph doing it when he was put in the book and so freaked out (because - seen that plenty of times in movies and other books). But it was still a bit of a shock when it actually happened (and I had guessed, right after her heroic bit, that was going to be doomsday for her).
I feel sorry for Laura...you'd think after knowing Susan and Murphy going down, she'd want to stay FAR, FAR away from him as a wife/lover/whatever. I always liked Laura, I hope she doesn't get killed off too lol
Still, overall I thought it was done decently well. I'm sure Jim is feeling the burn out and same thing ole GRR Martin is - his plots and threads have gotten so convoluted that it makes writing them a big headache and puts a damper on the whole thing. I suspect we'll get another Aeronaut book next and may that will help him.
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The whole sneeze an anvil thing is prep work and continuation of something started in Skin Games. Harry's going to use it at some point to shape shift. Gray uses calls matter from the Never Never when he changes mass and Eb shows Harry that it is possible to stabilize it by adding power
As to the rest we agree.
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A - Justine was pregnant...a pregnant lover can make people do incredibly dumb things. Basically he was being blackmailed, "I'll kill this body and unborn child unless you perform an assassination. If you do, I will let them both go." - I've seen movies with that plot, basically.
I buy the blackmail thing, but at time, how would that help Justine and the baby? Only thing if somehow Thomas was convinced if the did this, the baby would be free of the Hunger or Justine would be protected from it.
B - I thought they had established there were certain circumstances where a vampire could essentially be unable to heal themselves and die from wounds and so, a stasis pod isn't out of line thinking. They do that with people, put them on the blood bypasses while they try to look for answers to save them. Still, I do agree with you some here, gimmicky and ultimately par of the plan for Nemfected Justine to get not he island.
I think it is pretty well established that to heal a WCvamp needs to feed if they are injured bad enough. Then the feeding is to the death, that was what Raith was after when he put Justine in bed with Thomas in Blood Rites when he was so badly hurt. That is what Shaggy did do him over and over again in Turn Coat, beat him up to the point of death, then feed him a young girl.
Alfred - It could be he might have trouble fighting an Outsider that was INVITED onto the island, even if that guest right was revoked before Harry got incapacitated somehow. Think The Trojan Horse. Can't breach the walls? sneak inside and open the gates.
But at the same time Alfred would have seen though Justine immediately, he had no trouble identifying what Thomas was or Lara. So while I think Trojan Horse is what Nemesis was going for, Harry figured it out before they got to the island. Still unanswered, can or cannot the island hold an Outsider? It can apparently hold everything else, but not an Outsider? Or is Harry so scared of them that he just didn't want to risk it? For that matter, if it couldn't get past the defenses unless it tricked Harry and Alfred, then wouldn't a cell hold it?
I'm unhappy about Murphy...I think he was just starting to write her well again only to take her out. I knew it had to happen of course, because of her mortality and wounds mostly sidelining her. Some people aren't the type to go quietly. I actually saw how it was going to be Rudolph doing it when he was put in the book and so freaked out (because - seen that plenty of times in movies and other books). But it was still a bit of a shock when it actually happened (and I had guessed, right after her heroic bit, that was going to be doomsday for her).
I still think it comes down to Jim not having a decent role for Murphy once he kicked her off the police force.
I feel sorry for Laura...you'd think after knowing Susan and Murphy going down, she'd want to stay FAR, FAR away from him as a wife/lover/whatever. I always liked Laura, I hope she doesn't get killed off too lol
It is something that came totally out of left field as far as I am concerned. I cannot see how it is going to work, I mean I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed off of him during sex no matter how pleasurable.. And I cannot see Lara not feeding off of him, nor can she touch him as long as he has no other sexual partners because he is still protected by his and Murphy's true love.
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I buy the blackmail thing, but at time, how would that help Justine and the baby? Only thing if somehow Thomas was convinced if the did this, the baby would be free of the Hunger or Justine would be protected from it.
It's a magical world and agreements can be binding in ways more than any legal contract. But usually the, "I'll let them live and leave you all alone" could be enough if it was truly binding. Though I am surprised Thomas never even ATTEMPTED to talk to Harry about it.
I think it is pretty well established that to heal a WCvamp needs to feed if they are injured bad enough. Then the feeding is to the death, that was what Raith was after when he put Justine in bed with Thomas in Blood Rites when he was so badly hurt. That is what Shaggy did do him over and over again in Turn Coat, beat him up to the point of death, then feed him a young girl.
Yeah, that may be what the issue was...how would Thomas feel if he fed and killed someone. Still, a bit of a railroad with that in order to get Harry alone with Justine and "on the island" basically.
But at the same time Alfred would have seen though Justine immediately, he had no trouble identifying what Thomas was or Lara. So while I think Trojan Horse is what Nemesis was going for, Harry figured it out before they got to the island. Still unanswered, can or cannot the island hold an Outsider? It can apparently hold everything else, but not an Outsider? Or is Harry so scared of them that he just didn't want to risk it? For that matter, if it couldn't get past the defenses unless it tricked Harry and Alfred, then wouldn't a cell hold it?
Yeah, but just because Alfred saw through it doesn't mean or change the fact Harry invited it....it's not like Harry hasn't invited others to the island...vampires, knights, etc. Alfred might expect Harry to have unusual guests at this point :) lol
I suspect it could hold an Outsider. If it can handle gods and titans and things even more powerful, it could likely hold the Outsider. But it was obvious that Nemesis wanted on the island and so, as unprepared as Harry was, he didn't want it there. Who knows what tricks it has? To jail something Alfred has to catch it and what if he couldn't before it managed to do some kind of big damage or sabotage something important? Alfred isn't all powerful and jailing something isn't always quick, easy and cut and dry. As exhausted, wounded, beaten down and on empty as Harry was, I think he chose to confront the problem another day. But lots of unanswered questions with regards to it.
I still think it comes down to Jim not having a decent role for Murphy once he kicked her off the police force.
Maybe. Though Murphy was getting further and further out of her weight class as the books went along and power levels increased. Also, I remember something Butcher was saying about Susan too - where you can't keep a hero hooked up and happy/content in noir settings (though this has kind of moved on from being noir and is now more like urban high fantasy). Though I'm not sure any marriage to Laura could ever really be 'happy/content'. Maybe more like the movie "Mr & Mrs. Smith"
It is something that came totally out of left field as far as I am concerned. I cannot see how it is going to work, I mean I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed off of him during sex no matter how pleasurable.. And I cannot see Lara not feeding off of him, nor can she touch him as long as he has no other sexual partners because he is still protected by his and Murphy's true love.
On some further thought, I think Molly knew about it beforehand. We weren't clued in though. And see my Mr. & Mrs. Smith comment above lol. I'm right there with you. Makes me wonder why Laura wanted to 'court' Dresden in the first place, knowing his love for Murphy. The marriage thing was all Mab though. I suspect the whole 'we need to be united and have staunch allies' is not the whole truth, but who knows for sure?
Maybe it is, one thing not touched on - consider the losses the Winter Court took, as well as the White Court too. They seemed to take the brunt of things. Everyone is going to be licking their wounds and suffer a loss of manpower. You know whose not? Nemesis and the being throwing themselves against the Outer Gates.
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Back again.
Exhibit B -again) If Thomas needed to feed in order to heal, why wasn’t Lara giving Thomas humans to feed on? They had an Thomas dying for at least an hour, and instead of doing the obvious Lara accompanies Harry to Demonreach. If it was so serious, why would Lara be so passive when the obvious solution to heal Thomas was available. We’re entering territory where both Thomas and Lara are acting out of character.
Exhibit D) Alfred and outsiders. It seems odd that Harry wouldn’t be able to keep Justine out if Demonreach once he realized the plan. Alfred has shown himself capable of as much in the past. And there’s the possibility of Alfred potentially capturing Justine, which Harry doesn’t even think about. That whole plot sequence is badly thought through
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Exhibit B -again) If Thomas needed to feed in order to heal, why wasn’t Lara giving Thomas humans to feed on? They had an Thomas dying for at least an hour, and instead of doing the obvious Lara accompanies Harry to Demonreach. If it was so serious, why would Lara be so passive when the obvious solution to h
I was wondering the same thing at the time, Lara was never shy about feeding on "kine" before, especially if it were to save herself or Thomas. Or was afraid that Harry would stop helping her?
Exhibit D) Alfred and outsiders. It seems odd that Harry wouldn’t be able to keep Justine out if Demonreach once he realized the plan. Alfred has shown himself capable of as much in the past. And there’s the possibility of Alfred potentially capturing Justine, which Harry doesn’t even think about. That whole plot sequence is badly thought through
The idea that Harry was so tired and hurt he knew he couldn't think straight enough to be successful works about as well as anything. But following him after he went overboard, supposedly Alfred helped him ashore, and supposedly Harry gave him the Eye to keep safe in the armory or somewhere, Harry didn't want to know. Yet Harry was found suffering from severe hypothermia half in the water, by two of Lara's men allowed on the island to help Harry. None of that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
Maybe. Though Murphy was getting further and further out of her weight class as the books went along and power levels increased. Also, I remember something Butcher was saying about Susan too - where you can't keep a hero hooked up and happy/content in noir settings (though this has kind of moved on from being noir and is now more like urban high fantasy). Though I'm not sure any marriage to Laura could ever really be 'happy/content'. Maybe more like the movie "Mr & Mrs. Smith"
If Murphy had remained on the police force, she could eventually been promoted to police chief or something of that nature. Even as a detective, she could still assist Harry, keep her skills and still remain believable as a character.
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Harry didn't have the oomph to perform a binding on a Titan and a Walker on the same day.
Harry only looked like he had hypothermia, he comments their attempts to treat him were annoying.
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I was wondering the same thing at the time, Lara was never shy about feeding on "kine" before, especially if it were to save herself or Thomas. Or was afraid that Harry would stop helping her?
I think that last bit is probably the most on point. Lara knows harry well enough to know what he isn't going to allow if she wants his help.
The idea that Harry was so tired and hurt he knew he couldn't think straight enough to be successful works about as well as anything. But following him after he went overboard, supposedly Alfred helped him ashore, and supposedly Harry gave him the Eye to keep safe in the armory or somewhere, Harry didn't want to know. Yet Harry was found suffering from severe hypothermia half in the water, by two of Lara's men allowed on the island to help Harry. None of that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
We must always remember, Harry is an unreliable narrator. We are obviously not getting the whole story.
And the entire ending after the battle was pretty rushed, I bet material was cut out of it. I find some missing chunks of information here and there where stuff obviously happened off-screen and we only see bits of it.
he might have needed to make it a mini-trilogy lol
If Murphy had remained on the police force, she could eventually been promoted to police chief or something of that nature. Even as a detective, she could still assist Harry, keep her skills and still remain believable as a character.
I agree, though when I look back over her department tenure, it doesn't seem like she was really on the track to become a PC of a big department. That's very political and she was not super political. She could have remained a detective, but I think that for the most part, we've outgrown that bit of the story where that's really exceptionally useful. Harry isn't really a PI doing PI stuff with a supernatural twist anymore. He's dealing with gods, titans and legendary beings.
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I agree, though when I look back over her department tenure, it doesn't seem like she was really on the track to become a PC of a big department. That's very political and she was not super political. She could have remained a detective, but I think that for the most part, we've outgrown that bit of the story where that's really exceptionally useful. Harry isn't really a PI doing PI stuff with a supernatural twist anymore. He's dealing with gods, titans and legendary beings.
I think that about sums it up. Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy. Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry. So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died. So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible. Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc. But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring.
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I think that about sums it up. Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy. Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry. So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died. So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible. Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc. But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring.
It is entirely possible that Mab gave some extra attention to Murphy.
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I think that about sums it up. Harry outgrew being a P.I. though for my part I miss that, it is what set the Dresden Files apart from your run of the mill fantasy. Jim said no power ups for Murphy, at the beginning of the series I believe it says she is about five years older than Harry. So over time her physical talents were going to diminish once she hit forty-five, which she was about when she died. So had she lived her going out and kicking supernatural ass would became less and less plausible. Even the explanation in Battle Ground wasn't believable, she said that those on Mab's side didn't feel pain so she could ride a motorcycle and fight, but she didn't say her injuries were healed by Mab. There was more going on than simple pain that limited her movements etc. But back to being Harry's lover, that is sort of a come down for her as well in after a while it becomes boring.
I miss that aspect of the novels too (his PI stuff). I guess I missed where Jim said no power up's for Murphy, but that explains why she never got one (to me anyway). Yeah, she was going to dimish over time, so I'm with the Kurgan (Highlander) on that point: "It's better to burn out, than to fade away!".
And yeah, the whole ignoring pain while injured stretches some credibility, especially when you are injured in a way that limits you physically...but then again...MAGIC. Those people would all be paying a price for that though, maybe permanent injuries once they come down from that. Well at least those that lived.
And yeah, just being a love interest and demoted to occasional side character would be doing her a disservice. At least Lara won't have a problem keeping up, until Harry becomes an Immortal Star Lord or whatever.
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A little more mystery and less battle?
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I just miss some of the street level stuff he did.
Books have grown beyond that and that's okay too. I enjoyed the big battle.
now wait, are we talking less battle or les battles?
Because...you know...(just kidding)
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Less battle. Jim can write good dialog too.
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aww you edited it. That's no fun :)
and I think he writes a pretty good balance of description/action/dialogue.
I have to admit, I teared up a bit for Murphy.
I got angry and threw the book against the wall when Susan got bitten. I left it there for a month before I picked it up and finished it.
So, I think he does a good job overall.
Not all of his books lately have had great editing, but I don't really fault him for that.
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I liked that scene with Harry and Gard at the end mourning their lovers. Gard probably was right about Murphy but it still hurts. For her as well.
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I liked that scene with Harry and Gard at the end mourning their lovers. Gard probably was right about Murphy but it still hurts. For her as well.
Actually rereading Heorot before Battle Ground came out, I thought Harry and Gard made an excellent combo. I think her practical warrior woman attitude played well with Harry and what he is about to face.
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Don’t get me wrong...I’m glad to get Dresden back, especially after a long hiatus. There were some strong points to the story, especially Battle Ground. But Characters acting out of character and dubious or incoherent plot points all took me out of the story. Rather than being immersed in Dresdens world, I was constantly booted out by the glaring flaws in the storytelling.
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Don’t get me wrong...I’m glad to get Dresden back, especially after a long hiatus. There were some strong points to the story, especially Battle Ground. But Characters acting out of character and dubious or incoherent plot points all took me out of the story. Rather than being immersed in Dresdens world, I was constantly booted out by the glaring flaws in the storytelling.
Yes, I felt that way in both Peace Talks and Battle Ground. Rudolph for one, did he just go nuts or why would he kill Murphy in cold blood after she saved everyone by killing the giant?
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Yes, I felt that way in both Peace Talks and Battle Ground. Rudolph for one, did he just go nuts or why would he kill Murphy in cold blood after she saved everyone by killing the giant?
I honestly don't think it was "in cold blood," I think the massive screw-up just screwed up again. I think it was an accidental shot... This is terrible, and ugly, because it means Murph was a casualty of something so damn small. This should play out in an interesting way, but honestly is pretty ugh. I want to see Rudolph scarred by this, don't Dresden's reaction, but his stupid mistake.
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I honestly don't think it was "in cold blood," I think the massive screw-up just screwed up again. I think it was an accidental shot... This is terrible, and ugly, because it means Murph was a casualty of something so damn small. This should play out in an interesting way, but honestly is pretty ugh. I want to see Rudolph scarred by this, don't Dresden's reaction, but his stupid mistake.
Possible, or he has lost it mentally, Rudolph seemed very paranoid, and the Fomor invasion only made it worse. Someone that paranoid with a loaded gun, safety off in his hand was bound to kill someone. Since the focus of his ire was Murphy, she became the target for all of his fears and she died for it.
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He was a normal person who was basically confronted with the Supernatural and just cracked up. That doesn't make it any better, but some people just can't handle anything out of "normal"
Cops are an interesting breed too. Some of them are very steeped in the "nitty gritty" I work with cops and I'm in IT and tech and you'd think some of the things I show them or talk to them about IS magic and it's incomprehensible to them. Some are adaptable and just fine, but others - are not.
Unfortunately we've seen this scene played out before in plenty of TV shows and movies where the panicking person with the gun accidentally shoots someone important to the Hero. I saw that coming a mile away when the scene started - unfortunately predictable.
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I read Thomas condition as he was brought to the absolute edge and kept there. The demon took over while Thomas died slowly and it just became a bad spiral where if they fed thomas the demon would heal quicker and take up more space than the human part. Basically magical cancer.
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I read Thomas condition as he was brought to the absolute edge and kept there. The demon took over while Thomas died slowly and it just became a bad spiral where if they fed thomas the demon would heal quicker and take up more space than the human part. Basically magical cancer.
Lara explained it though in Peace Talks. This is how a White Court Vamp dies, the Hunger cannot live on it's own. She said this is how Lord Raith is dying, he cannot feed on others so his Hunger is slowly feeding on him and killing him. Margaret must have known this when she threw her curse.
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I honestly don't think it was "in cold blood," I think the massive screw-up just screwed up again. I think it was an accidental shot... This is terrible, and ugly, because it means Murph was a casualty of something so damn small. This should play out in an interesting way, but honestly is pretty ugh. I want to see Rudolph scarred by this, don't Dresden's reaction, but his stupid mistake.
It was Chekhov's poor trigger discipline. Every time we see Rudolph this book it's mentioned. It was pretty obvious by the second time that the idiot would kill someone because of it.
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... it feels like chunks of some stuff were missing, especially at the end. It felt a bit rushed, so I wonder where it will pick up at the next book.
Jim said he's going to release microfictions about Harry's year of mourning that mostly center on political functions.
The whole sneeze an anvil thing is prep work.
I agree. It's a disease child wizards get. They're too young to learn from it. Harry isn't.
Yeah, that may be what the issue was...how would Thomas feel if he fed and killed someone.
I think we've found a use for Rudolph.
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I find, as I listen to Marsters spin this story, that I am getting wearier and wearier. It's a brutal book that is filled with slaughter and hopelessness aside from a few points. I'm at 31 right now and I just want it over with.
I pretty much figured out the Justine bit, so that comes as no surprise. I guess I'll check back in with you guys when Mab does her thing with Harry and Lara. Pointedly not looking forward to that.
Harry needs a vacation from all of this. A really long vacation.
I've never been so exhausted in my life getting through a book.
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Exhibit A) Thomas. If Justine is nemfected, in what way does throwing your life away help in any way shape or form. Even if it was just a gambit to buy some time, he didn’t tell anyone about the situation, so how can he reasonably expect his child and love to be saved? Thomas is many things, but not dumb. A big part of the plot hinges on Thomas being dumb.
The point wasn't, "Thomas thought that attacking Etri would save Justine and the kid."
The point was, "Nemfected Justine told him, 'Kill Etri, or Justine and your baby die.'"
He didn't think it would help. He knew it wouldn't. But he had to do it or else Justine and the kid die. It's basically a hostage situation.
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The point wasn't, "Thomas thought that attacking Etri would save Justine and the kid."
The point was, "Nemfected Justine told him, 'Kill Etri, or Justine and your baby die.'"
He didn't think it would help. He knew it wouldn't. But he had to do it or else Justine and the kid die. It's basically a hostage situation.
Could be, or Justine has been manipulating him from the beginning. Here is a thought, Nemeses has been manipulating Justine from the get go. When Thomas and Justine fell in love it made it's task more difficult so it gave Justine the idea to bring a friend in to break the protection. Thus they could once again make love and Nemeses could continue to manipulate.
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I honestly don't think it was "in cold blood," I think the massive screw-up just screwed up again. I think it was an accidental shot... This is terrible, and ugly, because it means Murph was a casualty of something so damn small. This should play out in an interesting way, but honestly is pretty ugh. I want to see Rudolph scarred by this, don't Dresden's reaction, but his stupid mistake.
Anyone else suspect that Mab helped Rudolph along to his stupid, awful action?
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Could be, or Justine has been manipulating him from the beginning. Here is a thought, Nemeses has been manipulating Justine from the get go. When Thomas and Justine fell in love it made it's task more difficult so it gave Justine the idea to bring a friend in to break the protection. Thus they could once again make love and Nemeses could continue to manipulate.
The Walker says that he'd only been in Justine since she got close to Lara, and I don't see a reason to lie there (if it even could, given Harry's abilities over Outsiders).
When does Even Hand take place, again? I thought the events there might be where it happened, but I think it's after Justine gets close to Lara.
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The Walker says that he'd only been in Justine since she got close to Lara, and I don't see a reason to lie there (if it even could, given Harry's abilities over Outsiders).
When does Even Hand take place, again? I thought the events there might be where it happened, but I think it's after Justine gets close to Lara.
Between turncoat and changes according to the Brief Cases short story collection.
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The Walker says that he'd only been in Justine since she got close to Lara, and I don't see a reason to lie there (if it even could, given Harry's abilities over Outsiders).
When does Even Hand take place, again? I thought the events there might be where it happened, but I think it's after Justine gets close to Lara.
She became Lara's secretary at the end of Blood Rites, that is pretty close but it may have been a while before Nemeses decided to take advantage of that.
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Between turncoat and changes according to the Brief Cases short story collection.
OK, so yeah, that's a little later than what the Walker said.
She became Lara's secretary at the end of Blood Rites, that is pretty close but it may have been a while before Nemeses decided to take advantage of that.
The question is still one of opportunity, though. When she could have been possessed. Though given we don't know the mechanisms of it -- whether she'd need to be out or captured somewhere for a while -- it's hard to narrow it down.
Unless Lara's the one who infected her, but that's a WAG at best.
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The question is still one of opportunity, though. When she could have been possessed. Though given we don't know the mechanisms of it -- whether she'd need to be out or captured somewhere for a while -- it's hard to narrow it down.
Unless Lara's the one who infected her, but that's a WAG at best.
I don't think Lara had anything to do with it. In Grave Peril she was captured along with Susan. Susan got half turned I think out of spite by Bianca, supposedly nothing happened to Justine. However it was at that very party that Cowl gave Lea the Knife infected with Nemeses. So it is plausible that if they knew the connection between her, Thomas, and the White Court, with the help from Bianca, Justine was also infected. That is a WAG, but plausible because of the connections..
At the end of Blood Rites, she then becomes Lara's secretary/assistant and supposedly was doing some spying for Harry as well. We know all the Outsider connections with the White Court so it is also plausible that it was set up then.
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I don't think Lara had anything to do with it. In Grave Peril she was captured along with Susan. Susan got half turned I think out of spite by Bianca, supposedly nothing happened to Justine. However it was at that very party that Cowl gave Lea the Knife infected with Nemeses. So it is plausible that if they knew the connection between her, Thomas, and the White Court, with the help from Bianca, Justine was also infected. That is a WAG, but plausible because of the connections..
At the end of Blood Rites, she then becomes Lara's secretary/assistant and supposedly was doing some spying for Harry as well. We know all the Outsider connections with the White Court so it is also plausible that it was set up then.
The problem with an infection that early is that she did not look that important in Grave Peril. Pappa Raith was in power and Thomas was a spoiled brat soon to be killed by his father just like the other ones.
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The problem with an infection that early is that she did not look that important in Grave Peril. Pappa Raith was in power and Thomas was a spoiled brat soon to be killed by his father just like the other ones.
Thomas was Harry's brother. Plenty of "people" seemed to know then. Why not Nemesis? That's reason enough.
The real problem with Grave Peril is that Justine was infected after Blood Rites. That's what HWWBeside said anyway.
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The problem with an infection that early is that she did not look that important in Grave Peril. Pappa Raith was in power and Thomas was a spoiled brat soon to be killed by his father just like the other ones.
But things are not always what they seem, what better way to plant someone who would then work her way up to being important? That way Nemeses could hang out in plain sight in a crazy girl who's only value seemingly was as kine...
The real problem with Grave Peril is that Justine was infected after Blood Rites. That's what HWWBeside said anyway.
HWWBesde only said since Justine became close to Lara. However HWWBeside is an Outsider, which isn't the same as Nemeses is it? So the Nemeses infection could happened earlier. It is a bit confusing though because HWWBeside is a Walker, an Outsider, but Harry also call him Nemeses, are they the same thing or not? If not, the two could have happened at different times. As I said, at Bianca's party the Knife infected with Nemeses was given to Lea.. Justine could have been infected then, which softened her up for the Walker to take over later. I don't know but it all seems plausible.
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What the thing says is that it is Nemesis. Then it gives its name. The Walker clearly equates the two, and says that it possessed Justine after she got close to Lara.
Ergo, Justine was not infected until she became close to Lara, and that doesn't happen until well after Blood Rites.
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What the thing says is that it is Nemesis. Then it gives its name. The Walker clearly equates the two, and says that it possessed Justine after she got close to Lara.
Ergo, Justine was not infected until she became close to Lara, and that doesn't happen until well after Blood Rites.
Not well after, at the end of Blood Rites Justine is in a wheel chair having almost died saving Thomas. She becomes Lara's secretary shortly after.. Problem, Harry calls it Nemeses, an Outsider, and a Walker.. We know that a Walker is an Outsider knight, but are Outsiders really Nemeses?
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Anyone else suspect that Mab helped Rudolph along to his stupid, awful action?
I don't think so. That would not have been necessary. She would have had Harry married to Lara with Murphy still alive. Wouldn't matter to her. Harry would have had to ask her permission to marry anyway and she would have said no to Murphy (assuming Murphy would even have wanted to marry Harry) and told him to choose Lara.
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What the thing says is that it is Nemesis. Then it gives its name. The Walker clearly equates the two, and says that it possessed Justine after she got close to Lara.
Ergo, Justine was not infected until she became close to Lara, and that doesn't happen until well after Blood Rites.
Yes, it gets confusing or Jim confused in that reveal. When Harry discovered that Cat Sith was infested with Nemeses, it was just Nemeses, no mention of Walkers or Outsiders, the same with Leah and Maeve. So without someone who suspects, Nemeses could hang out for a long time undetected. Nobody in the Winter Court, suspected Cat Sith or Maeve for that matter of being infected until it was too late. Now Justine may have gotten the full viral load as they say,and that took place later.
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Not well after, at the end of Blood Rites Justine is in a wheel chair having almost died saving Thomas. She becomes Lara's secretary shortly after.. Problem, Harry calls it Nemeses, an Outsider, and a Walker.. We know that a Walker is an Outsider knight, but are Outsiders really Nemeses?
I don't follow the last question.
The Outsider Walker named "He Who Walks Beside" is commonly known as Nemesis. He's a specific Outsider, who specializes in infiltration. I rather think Demonreach was setup to deny him access to hosts he'd otherwise infected, and therefore free to deny their natures.
On the overall topic: Nemesis-infected Maeve told Justine she'd be seeing things Maeve's way soon. This is either recognition of a latent infection, or identification of where Nemesis "jumped," if that is its mechanism, when Maeve died. At that point, a couple of years prior, Justine was an ideal target, close to Lara, etc. I rather think people are looking too far back for Justine's exposure.
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The Outsider Walker named "He Who Walks Beside" is commonly known as Nemesis. He's a specific Outsider, who specializes in infiltration. I rather think Demonreach was setup to deny him access to hosts he'd otherwise infected, and therefore free to deny their natures.
I know that, but was it a Walker who infested Cat Sith? No Walker or Outsider was mentioned there, only Nemeses.
Harry does say he thinks Shark Face got to him and that is how he got infected. But that is all, no Outsiders.. Harry further says; on page 427 of Cold Days.
"Like Mab wouldn't have figured it out," I said. "Like she did when you infected Lea."
Or later page 503 Cold Days
"It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone--but her eyes were far away. "The one given to her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That is how Leanansidhe was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
So, no mention of Lea or Maeve being possessed by a Walker or Outsider, merely that both got infected by contact with Morgana's athame which was tainted. Some how Sharkface an Outsider
managed to get Cat Sith infected, however he never possessed Cat Sith. So Justine is infected and possessed?
My theory, just as the plan was to infest the more important members of the Winter Court to spy and undermine.. The same plan was to undermine the White Court. Bianca wasn't blind, she may have observed the closeness between Justine and Thomas, so just as the knife was used to get to the Winter Court, Justine could eventually be used to get to the White Court.
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I wonder if being imprisoned in Demonreach for a time will 'cure' an infected being?
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I know that, but was it a Walker who infested Cat Sith? No Walker or Outsider was mentioned there, only Nemeses.
Harry does say he thinks Shark Face got to him and that is how he got infected. But that is all, no Outsiders.. Harry further says; on page 427 of Cold Days.
Or later page 503 Cold Days
So, no mention of Lea or Maeve being possessed by a Walker or Outsider, merely that both got infected by contact with Morgana's athame which was tainted. Some how Sharkface an Outsider
managed to get Cat Sith infected, however he never possessed Cat Sith. So Justine is infected and possessed?
My theory, just as the plan was to infest the more important members of the Winter Court to spy and undermine.. The same plan was to undermine the White Court. Bianca wasn't blind, she may have observed the closeness between Justine and Thomas, so just as the knife was used to get to the Winter Court, Justine could eventually be used to get to the White Court.
The infestation would appear to *be* a Walker. It's not a disease they wield.
Much like the cornerhounds are avatars a single being has its hand pressed within with multiple vessels.
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The problem I have with the whole is Nemesis just Nemesis or a Walker is that there is no new info. Everything we know to this point is that it is a contagion that infects people. In this as in so many other things...whwre is the world building?
Where is the mystery? The complexity? The plot twists? The descriptions? The emotion? The more I think about it the more I realize how much is just WRONG about this book...how its written and the seeming way critical world & character elements are forgotten.
Case in point....family. Family is everything to Harry. When Susan was turned he burned down a building. He also went pyrofuego when Michael (someone he sees as a surrogate father) was shot. Now that he has the Winter Mantle and all why didn't he loose it even MORE so and let loose a Winter fueled version of pyrofuego after Murphy was killed?
Why is it that the several times Harry just wants to give up and die does he not think once about his daughter? The same daughter he was willing to let himself be turned into the Winter Knight to save before he even knew her. Her presence was more real in Cold Days and Skin Game than here. The thing with Ethniu doesn't count since it was so damn obvious it was fake. I was devastated when Michael was shot in Small Favor. This time I felt absolutely nothing.
Pretty much how the whole book make me feel...just numb. Authors have a specific voice and I'm very used to how he sounds. The problem with this story (Peace Talks + Battle Ground = story) is that most of the time it didn't sound at all like Jim.
Which brings me to something else. Thorned Namshiel was one of the Denarians who imprisoned and tortured Marcone on Demonreach. It doesn't at all ring true that he'd take up that coin voluntarily. Lasciel or Anduriel yes.