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Messages - Duke Blue

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Honestly, I always thought that method of IDing the # of necromancers was shoddy.  I think too much emphasis was put on it in the blurb, and never really thought it was worth this much discussion.

You're probably right.  The main reason I always found that part interesting is because given that Jim is not one for extraneous details, you have to figure that he mapped out exactly what each of those necromancers did at each of those locations and had a reason for all of them.  Not to mention Lasciel's shadow screwing around with Harry's head the whole book induces a certain amount of paranoia.  I have never been able to shake the feeling that something weird was going on in Dead Beat which Harry wasn't catching on to.  Of course I get that feeling about most of the books.   ;D

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I've proposed that there were three other necromancers running around in DB who didn't show up because time-travelling future Harry disposed of them (and had to do so once he found out they were there in order to make sure history happened the way he remembered it), if that counts.

Your theory doesn't seem to address the ink spot or Mort's haircut.  However, if you work in a DeLorean then I think we can accept it.

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It's also interesting because this meeting in DB is also where the Mort's haircut discrepancies arose that Serack mentioned earlier.  I bet someone could turn this into an awesome conspiracy theory.

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I don't know if this is a discrepancy or I just missed something but the talk of weird counting made me think of it so I thought I would bring it up.

In Dead Beat, when Mort does the red ink trick to show where necromancy has been used around the city, Harry clearly lists out seven locations.  Then both Mort and Harry say "six" (Harry then concludes that there are six Necromancers in town which I didn't get either but probably is a side issue).  Why did both Mort and Harry say six when there when seven locations were just pointed out on the map?  As I said, I don't know if it is a discrepancy or if I am just missing something but if I am just missing something please tell me because it is bugging the heck out of me.

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3) The Hob attack

The Hob attack is another weird event.  On the face of it, it seems like an attempt to abduct or kill the Archive, but in fact, I find it hard to believe that gang of Hobs would be a reasonable threat to her.  This is after all a being that is at least as powerful as one of the Faerie Ladies (according to the underestimation of the Warden files), and we see her hold off a horde of Denarians without much trouble.  Add to this Kincaid and Luccio, (and possibly also Harry and Michael - Mab must be keeping tabs on her Emissary), and using a bunch of Hobs for such an operation seems downright stupid -- which Mab is not.  At the very last resort, Ivy could retreat into the Nevernever...

Thus, I suggest that if Mab really wanted to kill the Archive, she could (and would) have easily assembled a way more powerful force (e.g. sending Santa to abduct the child Archive would have been a cool twist), one that would have a better chance at overpowering the Archive and her protectors..

So if the Hob attack was not meant to kill the Archive, what was its purpose?

One possible answer is that all this is simply "warning shot" for the Archive.  Sending a bunch of Hobs to attack her is essentially Mab's way of telling her "Someone is up to no good. Take extra precautions."  One could even say that those clothes thrown around the aquarium to obscure Ivy's smell is a precuation taken by Kincaid as a direct result of this obscure warning. 


Actually I have been thinking about this attack a lot and I am not sure that the conclusion that the Hobbs were not much of a threat to Ivy is reasonable.  Think about what we know about Ivy in a fight from the Shedd Aquarium.
1. Her first tactic is to veil herself and wait for Kinkaid to kill the attacker(s).
2. While she has incredible skill with magic she still a little girl and probably doesn't have the stamina to fight for a long time even though she is really efficient with her magic.

Now consider the abilities of the Hobbs:
1. They make the area pitch black and fight without seeing (as they have no eyes).  As such not only does the myrk reduce the effectiveness of Kinkaid and Luccio but Ivy can't hide with a veil because invisibility is pretty much useless against an opponent with no eyes.
2. There were a lot of them.  A LOT!  Had Harry not dispelled the Myrk and Michael and Tiny cleared some of the Hobbs out the fight might have gone much much longer.

Also remember that Mab removed Harry's knowledge of fire evocation.  Harry used fire to turn on the sprinklers to dispel the myrk.  It could be that Mab miscalculated by not expecting Harry to think of using thaumaturgy to start the sprinklers when she only removed his fire evocation knowledge.

Now that doesn't mean that the Hobbs would necessarily have won but it does indicate that they were a particularly effective threat against the Archive even though they were not necessarily Mab's strongest troops in a general sense.  Also even if Mab didn't think the Hobbs could kill Ivy that doesn't necessarily mean they were some sort of warning.  Could be that Mab wanted the fight to continue until Ivy was forced to flee to the NN (where Mab or something else might have been waiting).  It is also possible that the fight was designed to wear down Ivy so that she would have less energy against the Denarians. 

Anyway, all I am saying is that I think that the Hobbs posed a real threat to Ivy and that things could have gone much differently if Harry and Michael hadn't showed up and done what they did.  Of course this is assuming that Mab sent the Hobbs.  IIRC she didn't actually answer that part of Harry's question at the end.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: Catalogue of Harry's Nightmares (WIP)
« on: April 17, 2012, 04:09:16 PM »
Isn't the fairy Queen Mab supposed to be connected with bringing dreams and/or nightmares according to English folklore?

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DF Reference Collection / Re: Black Council "Recruitment" [GS Spoilers]
« on: January 25, 2012, 03:33:59 PM »
So in thinking about topics like Lea, Christos, and Nic, I think I might have put a few things together...  The main inspiration for my conclusions is how during the conversation between Nic and Harry before the Rumble at the Shedd, Nic/Andariel seemed genuinely concerned about Harry's account of Hellfire being used at Arctis Tor, and considers such a thing a "contamination" if it's a member of the "Order."

Contamination is the key word here.   I am thinking that most of the “Black Council” operatives that Harry has a chance to interact with aren’t actually card carrying “members” but rather are contaminated somehow into doing things along the lines of what they want.  Contaminated by what?  Some kind of Outsider influence.  Vittorio Malvora was flat out possessed by an outsider, but maybe the same is true for pretty much every operative we have come across…  Others that are somehow contaminated, and possibly by outsiders (to some degree) would be… Aurora, Lea, Vittorio, and some more that deserve more elaboration… 

Thorned Namshiel might have been contaminated, but I’m thinking that Tessa is actually the major vector there, and he was working on her orders.

Since you have been talking so much about the contaminated line, I had to look it up.  And then because the Shedd fight scene is so awesome I had to keep reading.  That is when I noticed something wierd.  After Tessa has captured Harry in the aquarium and is trying to get him to reveal where Ivy is, she says to him: "They say to give a man three chances to say no" (Small Favor Chapter 32). Now it may be just a coincidence but that immediately struck me as awefully similar to Cowl's: "Thrice will I ask and done" (Dead Beat Chapter 8) when he is asking Harry for Das Lied Der Erlking.  I don't know if it has been mentioned before but if there is a connection between them, then it would certainly seem to support your theory.

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I'm not seeing evidence for that position.

I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal who demonstrates working knowledge of Outside power are Cowl and Peabody. (Unless you count Ivy with mordite in DM, and she does not need a direct link to be aware of that information, they just have to have written it down or formally taught it at some point.)  The Cowl ==Simon hypothesis ties all of them up in one neat bundle.

I'd also note that the Reds' sorcerous auxiliaries use Outsiders more than once in DB and PG.  possibly that's entirely new, but it says to me that the Reds aren't reluctant to think of Outsiders as tools.

Both of those feel to me suggestive of a larger scheme going further back.

I'd find that easier to believe if the apparent workings out of that plan had not exterminated the Reds and done very serious damage to the White Court.


I may not have been completely clear.  I agree that there is some larger master scheme at work behind the scenes.  What I was describing was how I believe that Maggie might have been duped into becoming involved in that larger scheme.  Furthermore, I think Maggie figured out the full extent of what was going and that is what led to her to run away from Raith.  The apparent expendability of the Red Court in Changes and the White Court in White Night just shows that Lord Raith and Ariana were being used as pawns too.

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I think you are on to something here but I think you are starting from the wrong place.  Maggie was involved in some sort of plan with bad types but I don't think she knew about the outsiders angle until later.  The start of this plan probably has to do with the meeting that Eb mentions at the end of Changes where Maggie invited him to a dinner to discuss a plan and then Lord Raith and Arianna were both there.  Eb specifically says that Maggie was pitching a plan to him which he didn't want anything to do with.  What was that plan?  Both White Court Vampires and Red Court Vampires can live without actually killing humans so they might seem like decent groups to try to make a deal with against more dangerous supernatural types.  Second, both White Court Vamps and Red Court Infected are kind of half mortal with a dangerous evil spirits in them that give them incredible strength.  Thus maybe she got sold on trying to breed some weird hybrid vampire/wizard super race that could fix the world.  Besides, if you think about it, we know of exactly one thing that came out Maggie working with Lord Raith which is Thomas.  If Thomas was in part the result of an experiment in wizards breeding with WC Vamps then it might explain why she was willing to leave him behind when she ran or why Lord Raith might have protected him so much that she couldn't grab him when she decided to leave.

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Serack,

First I want to say that I was very impressed by your catch of the inconsistent descriptions.  I just had a thought of a possible explanation that I thought I would throw out to see what your take was on it.  I really don't know about the house but as far as the descriptions of Mort here it goes... Mort appears to look pretty much like he did in Dead Beat but Harry is saying that this is the first time that he has seen him like that with the weight loss and the shaved head.  That could mean that someone or something has caused Harry to completely forget his meeting with Mort in Dead Beat.  If you couple that with the sudden recent attacks on Morty both ghostly and now physically it could mean that someone is trying to make sure that Harry can't be reminded by Mort about that meeting either.

Now as I recall, during their conversation in DB, Mort had ghosts show on a map locations where necromancy had been used around Chicago recently. Now Harry never got to check out more than a couple of those locations before he got caught up with other leads but could it is possible that one of those other locations that Harry never visited will actually be a vital clue to resolving the current situation.  Its a bit speculative but there you go.

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