...This is also my memory.
The idea that maybe Odin and Uriel have maybe negotiated over Murphy's destiny after her death is fan speculation with a base on the WOJ about the lunchs, and another WOJ where Jim says that people are not asked to join the Einherjaren but can be sort of drafted. But he's never said/confirmed that Odin and Uriel have effectively negotiated Murphy's fate.
The only relevant WoJ I recall (and it was only cited by someone else, I haven't seen / heard the original) suggests that afterlife!Murphy isn't satisfied with her options and is actively seeking loopholes & rule-bending in order to return.I've seen the quote today. Jim basically says Murphy isn't the type to just stand around waiting and that she is trying to find a way back into the fight.
I've seen the quote today. Jim basically says Murphy isn't the type to just stand around waiting and that she is trying to find a way back into the fight.
The only relevant WoJ I recall (and it was only cited by someone else, I haven't seen / heard the original) suggests that afterlife!Murphy isn't satisfied with her options and is actively seeking loopholes & rule-bending in order to return.
My first question was: "Since Murphy has recently become a just mostly dead Einherjar, how likely do you see it that she, given her personality and love for Harry, would be content to abide by the „until she has passed out of living memory“ rule and not try to subvert it in some way?"
His answer: Does Murphy strike you as someone to just follow along with such a rule? Of course she will try to subvert it somehow.
Yeah I posted a bunch of reddit transcription as a new topic with summaries and some links. Some might be redundant.TYVM!
I posted on reddit about Vadderung making a deal with Uriel for Murphy but I can't find the WOJ. Recent WOJ's have seemed hard to find as they aren't in Serack's compilation. Anyone have that WOJ handy?go through the actual Jim site to the woj official site. He seems to update it regularly enough it's ahead of the archives here, especially since the links aren't broke there.
go through the actual Jim site to the woj official site. He seems to update it regularly enough it's ahead of the archives here, especially since the links aren't broke there.
... one mentioning Murphy and how she got to be with Odin despite her traditional Catholic heritage ...
Might be a whisper thing there's a WOJ about Odin having to make deals with other religions in order to recruit einherjaar.
WOJ:"No not really. They can get roped into it. I mean if they've already got a claim somewhere else that's different. In which case Odin has to make a deal of some kind, it's like "I know you had plans for this guy and all Anubis but I really need him for the rest of the mortals" and that's the kind of thing that can happen. Very confused people occasionally wake up in Valhalla.
... One wonders if Murphy made herself vulnerable to be taken by Odin when she spent so much time
training with the Einherjaar. After she left the police force she was adrift. After Harry seemingly died I think she also became disillusioned about her faith, she seemed to have found a purpose when she started doing some work with Odin. If she hadn't been dismissed from the police force and had remained a practicing Catholic I doubt she would have woken up in Valhalla.
I think this is part of Uriel and/or Odin pulling another fast one.
As part of Uriel's "spook squad" (running under her dad's office), she gets to work directly against the plans of the Fallen, in realtime/now, without waiting for the Einherjar "beyond living memory" to kick in.
But as one of Odin's soldiers... well, as it happens, she gets that shiny new Einherjar body.
Odin and Uriel roll their eyes helplessly and go "Mortals, sheesh... wotcha gonna do?"
(ya gotta use your imagination to see the wink&nod passing between them... but it's there)
I suppose.... The lengths some authors will go to turn an otherwise strong female character into a superhero.. ::)
I posted on reddit about Vadderung making a deal with Uriel for Murphy but I can't find the WOJ. Recent WOJ's have seemed hard to find as they aren't in Serack's compilation. Anyone have that WOJ handy?
Uriel is charged with preserving the free will of independent entities. There is no way “making a deal” with Odin squares with that duty without Murphy signing off in advance.
Which means if she hasn't, her free will has been violated, doesn't it? Though she could very well have agreed to it to stay in the fight.
Yes. But I’m trying to square that choice with Murphy’s devout faith.
She had just as much devout faith in being a cop, but she compromised on that alot in Ghost Story and beyond.
Uriel and Vadderung are colleagues. If an Archangel tells someone whose devout that she'd still be fighting the good fight. Thats the next best thing from mission from God. Which she already turned down when she didn't pick up the Sword.Actually I don't think Uriel has much say at all in the matter, free will, is free will. Not sure if the same rules relating to free will apply to Odin or not.. Either way, I think Murphy did make a free choice, she believes she stays in the fight as an Einherjaar and will be able to continue to fight along side of Harry, something she doesn't think she could do along side of her father helping Uriel.
Murphy had been working with and alongside Einherjaar for awhile. She has respect for them as warriors. Besides I doubt she'd just serve blindly faithful.
I think there actually *is* a WOJ about her being a pain to Vadderung same way Harry is to Mab. iirc.
She had just as much devout faith in being a cop, but she compromised on that alot in Ghost Story and beyond.
Uriel and Vadderung are colleagues. If an Archangel tells someone whose devout that she'd still be fighting the good fight. Thats the next best thing from mission from God. Which she already turned down when she didn't pick up the Sword.
Murphy had been working with and alongside Einherjaar for awhile. She has respect for them as warriors. Besides I doubt she'd just serve blindly faithful.
I think there actually *is* a WOJ about her being a pain to Vadderung same way Harry is to Mab. iirc.
The thing that does bother me is Murphy ending up working directly for… or taking orders from John Marcone. While he has morals… it has always been clear that he sees himself as a “monster”.
I don’t understand the hard and fast “rule” about the new Einherjar/Valkeries not being allowed to see their loved ones.Einherjar and Valkeries are not the same thing.. The rule is a kindness actually for both the living and the dead. Odin wants his warriors to be loyal to him and not to those who they loved when alive. It is also a kindness to the living, imagine seeing your loved one but knowing at the same time they are dead to you.
HAAH! I am the master of WOJ Google Fu!
Took me an hour of searching through youtube transcripts before I remembered to check a chat I'm on Discord. Found it in five seconds.
WOJ: "My first question was: "Since Murphy has recently become a just mostly dead Einherjar, how likely do you see it that she, given her personality and love for Harry, would be content to abide by the „until she has passed out of living memory“ rule and not try to subvert it in some way?"
His answer: Does Murphy strike you as someone to just follow along with such a rule? Of course she will try to subvert it somehow."
Edit: Credit to Magnuskin he posted it from a panel from Denmark. https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,54936.0.html
... I don’t understand the hard and fast “rule” about the new Einherjar/Valkeries not being allowed to see their loved ones...As noted, Valkyries & Enherjaren are different.
Einherjaren are generally not allowed reincarnation "within living memory." Dunno if this is a rule Odin imposes; or part of TWG's rules for Odin to have Soulfire; or what...
Gard said, " Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her. That is a limit not even the Allfather may cross."
:o sooo I'ma make a nice lil theory based of this conversation(click to show/hide)
Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.what people? She's going with Dresden. Her whole crisis of faith revolved around Dresden and she came to believe in HIM. He ain't gonna call her and then just go home without her lol. There's a complicated set of circumstances I could see.. but that'd just be telling lol.
Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.
what people? She's going with Dresden. Her whole crisis of faith revolved around Dresden and she came to believe in HIM. He ain't gonna call her and then just go home without her lol ...Her.
Heh, heh, ha, ha hhhhhaaaaa? She abandons "her people" every time she chooses to risk her life, when she chooses to be a cop in spite of her families desire...
... I expect her to end up a corpse by the end of the book quite frankly with all the implications that implies.That seems entirely possible.
Nice loophole, but... Murphy ain't gonna be willing to leave her own people behind.to
Murphy wouldn't be so selfish as to abandon those people to that darkness and dangerfor me to reply
She abandons "her people" every time she chooses to risk her life, when she chooses to be a cop in spite of her families desire...And then as SOON as I ASSAIL the straw man of murphy needing to abandon her people to do what she does, not my position, your theoretical problem with my position... you try to lambaste me for it here
No; going out into the world to "fight the good fight" is NOT abandoning her people. We have to do things contrary to the desires of our loved ones on a daily basisfrom my perspective, you literally just tried to play me for a chance to act uppity about it. The ORIGINAL game everyone wanted to play with me that turned me into such a deep seeded azzhole quite frankly 🤷♂️
OTOH, I think he got more fan-hate for killing Murphy than for anything else he wrote. So "bringing her back" as fanservice might be a choice he makes, to avoid a "salt in the wounds" effect on his fandom.
I think that is a bit of a toss up, those really offended can simply quit the series...
... Maybe that's why he has treated Molly the way he has, she remains strong, while her and Harry do have love for one another, there is no romance.It's pretty clear that Molly is still harboring feelings for Harry; and Harry still admits (at least to himself) some sexual attraction (he may not be vocalizing it; but to Molly-the-Sensitive, he can't deny it).
So while there may not be any active "romantic relationship," there's still a background tension there (much as there was between him and Murphy, for many books).
... Actually I think it would have been better if Jim has stuck with Murphy's original reasons for not wanting a sexual relationship with Harry. They were very good reasons, once they were abandoned, while he tried to make her more kick ass than ever, I found her a lot less interesting and a lot less believable.Murphy had to die (or maybe "die").
Murphy had to die (or maybe "die").Which kind of goes back to my original point about Murphy, what was originally appealing about her in my opinion, was her mortality. The amazing stuff she was able to do stopped being believable, she became Bruce Lee on steroids, Annie Oakley with a high powered scope, all with a higher IQ than Einstein. So now that she is dead...
She was just a mortal, and Harry was moving further and further up the supernatural food-chain. She could do amazing stuff against Valkyries, Whampires, etc... But put against something like a Naagloshii, she'd be d-e-d dead.
Which kind of goes back to my original point about Murphy, what was originally appealing about her in my opinion, was her mortality. The amazing stuff she was able to do stopped being believable ...
She was an extremely-advanced martial-arts practitioner; many of them are startlingly-competent.
I personally knew a "Murphy"-like person -- cute, small, blonde, senior aikidoka. Nice lady, and when she came at you seriously she was the scariest person I've ever met (this with years of karate behind me). I have literally seen another black-belt take a glance at her then turn and run away, on the mat!
When Murphy added the Sword at Chichén Itzá... yes, that turned her dial up to "11," and I liked it -- for her character, for the story -- that she decided to put the Sword back down again, afterwards. The post-Changes Murphy was back to being a mortal, not Supermurphy; but she was much more being stretched to her limits, and barely-keeping-up. Before that, with a couple of exceptions (vs the Nightmare & vs. Papa Raith), Murphy was mostly on top of even the supernatural situations.
From the high-fantasy action-adventure aspect of the Casefiles, Murphy was no longer a "viable" adventuring character to accompany Harry.
Well, in Battle Ground, Murphy is able to do the things she does because of the magical boost she's getting from Mab. Bob explains it to Harry and even holds up Murphy as an example of how it's working. If Murphy had survived Rudolph, I suspect she would have been left in charge to hold the impromptu fortress while Sanya, Butters and Harry went to ambush the Formor.
That was before the boost.
Or, she appears as an already on scene Immortal...Mab via one from alternate reality, past, present or future. We do have WOJ that Mab can speak with the other Mabs in the multiverse though they really are too busy to bother.
The Einherjar are specially honored dead. They are not immortals in the sense that they live forever, but the most honored of spirits who get special treatment in the afterlife. Most religions have such people, like the honored Greek dead who go to Elysium.
Come on guys, this "she can't come back as long as mortals remember her" is a thing Jim made up on the spot to avoid having to bring her back immediately (because he clearly was planning to write out his own personal pain of the last years in the next book and you can't have Harry happy for that). And it's in the series of books where Jim himself has said that Harry will have broken all the laws of magic by the end of the series. If Jim wanted Murphy out of the series permanently, he wouldn't have built in this backdoor.
Or he is merely giving himself an option..
Given that he had the entire arc of his Dresden books planned out since the first one got published, I doubt that.
A good author always gives himself wiggle room because characters often have a way of taking on a life of their own. If an author is too wedded to his timeline he often ends up ruining the series.
Given that he had the entire arc of his Dresden books planned out since the first one got published, I doubt that.But a lot of the details weren't decided in advance.
Jim didn't decide (until just beforehand) which of Denarius/Darkhallow/Mantle Harry would pursue when he needed to power-up to get Maggie back.Well, Jim could have his cake and eat it too with alternate realities in which he does each of them. And we may get to see one of those other options in Mirror Mirror or other alternate reality.
I think Jim has hinted that one option for the series is to just wrap things up, particularly if he becomes unable to continue via sickness, etc. So in that case, Murphy's further story and his plans for her may just not make it into the series.
Hey guys,oof, zee King is dead 😞🫡
I think my last work on the WoJ website was in the period after Skin Game. I'm not really interested in working on it anymore and sort of gave the keys to Jim's payed assistant, although I think she is part time and I don't think she has the time to work on it to the level I used to either.
If I ever put any effort into it again it will probably be limited to just collecting links to sources and transcripts out there.
Hey guys,
I think my last work on the WoJ website was in the period after Skin Game. I'm not really interested in working on it anymore and sort of gave the keys to Jim's payed assistant, although I think she is part time and I don't think she has the time to work on it to the level I used to either.
If I ever put any effort into it again it will probably be limited to just collecting links to sources and transcripts out there.