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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 06, 2018, 05:08:26 PM

Title: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 06, 2018, 05:08:26 PM
Just posting for people who might not have heard it.
 
Black Gate Magazine Interview w/ Jim Butcher - ConFusion 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHJU5NwFiXk

Harry in Changes had 3 choices:
Book of Kemmler, and full on Necromancer
Summon Lasciel's Coin and go full Denarian
Deal with Mab.


I like where he discusses villains.  That there is something "missing".  "They have this hole that is bottomless that they keep trying to fill."  This does give some insight into people like Nicodemus, and Cowl.  Like Nicodemus wanting to save the world...  What is his definition of saving it?  Is it like Skywalker telling Obiwan that from his perspective the Jedi are evil?  Which would mean saving the world would be more like destroying it to the average person....  Maybe saving the world means ending Free Will, and Choice.

Harry's strength's: Direct magic, and magic that requires time, investment, and love.  "his gadgets are second to none in the wizard world even though he's a punk kid".  Surprised by that one, didn't realize the stuff he made was such a high level in comparison to more advanced wizards.

Love how Jim describes how he builds wizards, and how their magic is like martial arts.  Different people are suited for different things, and if you want to be good you need to find what you're good at, and focus on it.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 06, 2018, 06:16:05 PM
Quote
I like where he discusses villains.  That there is something "missing".  "They have this hole that is bottomless that they keep trying to fill."  This does give some insight into people like Nicodemus, and Cowl.

Ooh. I could make an Amber comparison here, but it for Amber is a rather specific case.  Julia and Brand and any others that walk a broken Pattern, touching the broken pieces rather than the whole ones get attuned to a magic that has something 'missing', something from the void.  This really isn't such a moral thing except that in Amber those that touch this magic with a bit of the void get changed by it and negatively so.  I had wondered if Jim was going to take Outsiders as coming into or manifesting from the void via those that walk broken Patterns.  So, I've made comparisons to those that summon Outsiders to in some way touching broken Patterns.

Of course, I don't think this can generalize to simple villains, but some of the villains in Amber Chronicles had this 'magic' and property.

Now, in Jim's other series, Cinder Spires, the 'magic wielders' actually do have something missing as they become more adept at their craft.  These missing pieces though manifest as psychological disorders like OCD and other peculiarities.

Oh and on OCD, ect, I've made progress on likely identifying the partial cause of my psychiatric disorder.  I hit my head at age 15 during a flip turn at a swim meet. So, essentially I slammed my head into concrete.  THis would be a mild traumatic brain injury that I didn't seek treatment for but left lasting unseen effects.  It took me awhile to think that a nonpsychological issue like hitting my head could be part of the problem. Also, in my history psychiatrists don't ask if you have hit your head.

Sorry for derailing the thread after mentioned the OCD of the characters in Cinder Spires and it reminding me of my own (computer games, etc).
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Argonometra on May 07, 2018, 09:37:36 AM
Harry's strength's: Direct magic, and magic that requires time, investment, and love. 

moar skull babies down the line?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 07, 2018, 10:47:20 AM
Quote
Harry's strength's: Direct magic, and magic that requires time, investment, and love.  "his gadgets are second to none in the wizard world even though he's a punk kid".  Surprised by that one, didn't realize the stuff he made was such a high level in comparison to more advanced wizards.

This is a little surprising at first, but when you think about it I think it fits for the most part.  Harry always had a major leg up on crafting thanks to having Bob as both mentor and magical sensor package.  His early potions were deceptively effective, some of the lesser used and/or not maintained designed could have become a lot more effective with continued development (the Bear Belt chi storage, the Murphionic Suppression charm, etc), unfortunately he always had to prioritized his combat gear over broader research.  But his duster enchantments are legitimately pretty hardcore, his 2.0 shield has been complimented by several wizards who are nominally his superiors in magical skill, and most recently he even managed to successfully build a skull Spirit Sanctum, without bob's help and literally using stone age tools by the sound of it.

And then there was Little Chicago, and whoooBOY that one could have been a biggun. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Snark Knight on May 07, 2018, 02:06:22 PM
Well, his bulletproofing enchantment on the duster is demonstrably second to at least Ebenezar's work, which protects the head and ankles even if they're not physically covered. Though I'm not sure whether he's actually marking up his robes with spells, or doing it some entirely different way.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: dspringer1 on May 07, 2018, 05:58:51 PM
I have to admit mixed feelings on all this.  I love the insight we get from these interviews.  I get that fans love all these book signings.   But I do think this is an example where fan enthusiasm gets in the way.   By demanding teasers and personal appearances (which we do demand), we delay getting actual new books.   

Now maybe JB gets a kick out of all this.  In that case, the man should do what he likes.   But if JB is rather so/so about all these appearances, I would personally prefer that fans place less distractions in front of "The Man" and let the guy write.   :)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 07, 2018, 06:10:26 PM
The delay in getting actual new books isn't on us. It is clear Jim enjoys these engagements. He likes spilling things in these interactions.  I wish he would spill more of it in the actual novel rather than in the Q&A.  I hope Jim gets his Muse back.  I think these interactions with his fans might help.  It does seem to me and you that it may delay the novels release.

As I was stating before though, I think these Q&A's help him think through some ideas and get juiced up.  To me I get the impression that life events have drained him somewhat.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 07, 2018, 06:42:15 PM
I have to admit mixed feelings on all this.  I love the insight we get from these interviews.  I get that fans love all these book signings.   But I do think this is an example where fan enthusiasm gets in the way.   By demanding teasers and personal appearances (which we do demand), we delay getting actual new books.   

Now maybe JB gets a kick out of all this.  In that case, the man should do what he likes.   But if JB is rather so/so about all these appearances, I would personally prefer that fans place less distractions in front of "The Man" and let the guy write.   :)

Probably contractual obligations.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 07, 2018, 07:07:31 PM
Pretty sure a lot of those appearances are contractual obligations, as in several of them he mentions being given guidance on what stories, etc he should or shouldnt tell. 

The other side of it is that they (the Publishers) would typically want to keep Jim in the public eye/mind at least a little between books.  "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" is a standard danger for any creative work Business, the longer it goes without any mention the more likely that somebody will simply miss it when new material is released.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: wardenferry419 on May 07, 2018, 10:28:12 PM
I'll take my morsels and nuggets of info anyway I can get them.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 08, 2018, 08:59:18 PM
This is a little surprising at first, but when you think about it I think it fits for the most part.  Harry always had a major leg up on crafting thanks to having Bob as both mentor and magical sensor package.  His early potions were deceptively effective, some of the lesser used and/or not maintained designed could have become a lot more effective with continued development (the Bear Belt chi storage, the Murphionic Suppression charm, etc), unfortunately he always had to prioritized his combat gear over broader research.  But his duster enchantments are legitimately pretty hardcore, his 2.0 shield has been complimented by several wizards who are nominally his superiors in magical skill, and most recently he even managed to successfully build a skull Spirit Sanctum, without bob's help and literally using stone age tools by the sound of it.

And then there was Little Chicago, and whoooBOY that one could have been a biggun.

I really, really want more gadgets for Harry. I am glad they are so good comparing with others, so now I want even more gadgets.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 08, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
I really, really want more gadgets for Harry. I am glad they are so good comparing with others, so now I want even more gadgets.
The logic for why he hasnt had a bunch of them at any given time makes sense both in-world and from a storytelling pov.  That being said, the in-world reason that it takes a lot of time to build and maintain his gadgets is actually a budget issue according to Bob.  Harry simply couldnt afford the materials that would let his enchantments last longer so he had to focus on refining the design itself.  Also, he's only so good a craftsman physically speaking, but for the most part did all his own carving, etc.  But now he has lots and lots of Shiny Rocks and a decent if tangential relationship with the local Svartalves, so he can absolutely afford the expensive materials and even outsource the actual fabrication.  Being broke has always been a core limiting factor form Harry so I am really looking forward to seeing what he does with funding.  And with something better to spend his time on, like being a father. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 08, 2018, 09:38:53 PM
I have the feeling Jim will have Harry use the money for something very specific and then he will be back to being poor. That said, Mab will probably pay her Knight
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 08, 2018, 11:01:07 PM
We have WOJL that goes along the lines of with more resources come more headaches.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Snark Knight on May 09, 2018, 02:38:31 AM
I have the feeling Jim will have Harry use the money for something very specific and then he will be back to being poor. That said, Mab will probably pay her Knight

I can't see Mab paying him a salary if he didn't negotiate one in their deal. She'll provide mission necessities like the car in CD or the enchanted earring in SG, and anything she feels necessary to keep up the image of her court for formal appearances (the tux and fancy lapel pins), but generously providing perks beyond a bargain's terms is really not her style. Anything more I can really only see if she thought luxuries would get Harry to like being the Knight and help mold him into her ideal 'monster' - and even though she misses the mark on understanding a lot of Harry's motivations, I don't think she's so clueless as to think material pay or luxuries are going to sway him towards what she wants him to be.

If there's going to be any support from Winter, I think it more likely Molly would rationalize spending some of her "eight zeroes bank account" on upgrading their Knight's gear as in the interests of the Court. Though I'd be at least as interested, if not more, in what kinds of foci she could create with an open budget for svartalf assistance.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 09, 2018, 02:47:15 AM
I was thinking that, precisely. Money to help Harry to keep a dignified status. Not money for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Mira on May 09, 2018, 04:26:38 AM
I was thinking that, precisely. Money to help Harry to keep a dignified status. Not money for the sake of it.

   Yeah, from the beginning Harry made it very clear that he wasn't into money or the trappings and comfort money could bring him by choice.  I don't remember the exact quote, but he repeated variations versions of how if he wanted he could use his talent to gain material goods and wealth.  No, he was content and comfortable in his dingy basement apartment decorated in early Salvation Army and Good Will with a book case full of worn paperbacks.   Some of this attitude might change now
that he has a child to support,  but it will be for hercomfort and security, not his own.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 09, 2018, 04:27:44 AM
I was thinking that, precisely. Money to help Harry to keep a dignified status. Not money for the sake of it.

I like the idea....  But this would mean Jim was making things nicer for Harry..  Sooo

(https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.-GnkrtRbSAKQAmfPxkZpNwHaEA&pid=Api)

Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 09, 2018, 04:38:53 AM
Precisely why I said he won't keep the diamonds. I suppose he will get a home for his daughter and him, but the rest, he will lose it somehow.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 09, 2018, 05:04:06 AM
Precisely why I said he won't keep the diamonds. I suppose he will get a home for his daughter and him, but the rest, he will lose it somehow.

Well going against what I said in my previous post, Harry may get some nice things because Jim knows it's going to get much worse later on lol.  I actually remember Jim saying something like some of what Harry experiences are based on what Jim has experienced and that because he has more money, so does Harry. 

I don't remember exactly how he put it, but that's what came across.  He also said something I think inferred that he may lose the money some how.  He jokes a lot about the cost of his son's college tuition.  Maybe Maggie's private supernatural school she's going to attend is very very expensive.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 09, 2018, 01:38:18 PM
What I remember is what I posted before.  With more money will come more aggressive and resourced opponents, meaning he will need every dime those diamonds get him and the things that he can get from it.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 09, 2018, 01:49:31 PM
His early potions were deceptively effective, some of the lesser used and/or not maintained designed could have become a lot more effective with continued development (the Bear Belt chi storage, the Murphionic Suppression charm, etc), unfortunately he always had to prioritized his combat gear over broader research.
The speedy getaway is combat gear, as well as the chi storage. I never understood why he only used them once.
Still, from a certain prespective, being magically tapped out is central to most, if not all, of the books, so having a chi storage handy everytime, even if it makes logical sense, would make it too easy for Harry.
What I remember is what I posted before.  With more money will come more aggressive and resourced opponents,
Um... I think that would be impossible. The resourced part at least. :D
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 09, 2018, 02:00:30 PM
Interesting bit about his gadgets. I can absolutely picture Harry and Maggie working together on daddy-daughter art projects on the weekends. Instead of building a bird feeder out of pinecones and peanut butter, they'll make "friendship bracelets" that prevent ghost possession, stop bullets, and provide the recommended daily dose of Vitamin C.

The whole time, energy, and love thing fits. Harry loves magic. He thinks it's pretty rad, for it's own sake. While some of his Council superiors might have the ability to make things as B/A as his duster (which I can no longer think about without conjuring multiple scenes from It's Always Sunny) or his amped up Shield Bracelet Mark 2, they might not have the inclination to bother; Luccio, for example, doesn't seem to need a focus to shoot the next best thing to a laser.

I do find it interesting that the three younger Wizards (not including Molly) we've spent the most time with—Ramirez, Harry, and Elaine—have all used extremely intricate foci to do some pretty awesome things. Ramirez's gauntlet, Elaine's earring/ring/lightning chain, Harry's everything, etc. The Merlin was shown to carry a wand, and a tactical belt full of potions and other knicknacks, but other than that and Eb's stumpy staff, I can't recall any of the Senior Council using any foci of their own (not counting the Blackstaff for obvious reasons).

Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: RobReece on May 09, 2018, 03:44:45 PM
I'll take my morsels and nuggets of info anyway I can get them.
Word
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Talby16 on May 09, 2018, 05:15:51 PM
I do find it interesting that the three younger Wizards (not including Molly) we've spent the most time with—Ramirez, Harry, and Elaine—have all used extremely intricate foci to do some pretty awesome things. Ramirez's gauntlet, Elaine's earring/ring/lightning chain, Harry's everything, etc. The Merlin was shown to carry a wand, and a tactical belt full of potions and other knicknacks, but other than that and Eb's stumpy staff, I can't recall any of the Senior Council using any foci of their own (not counting the Blackstaff for obvious reasons).

I don't think we can judge the gadgets of the Senior Council yet. We have not really seen them in as many varied situations as we have seen Harry which would necessitate the use of different foci. Since a foci could be anything (example silver buttons on a coat), we may have seen foci already and not been clued into their use. We will probably get a better glimpse of the Senior Council and their gadgets as the BAT approaches.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: WereElephant on May 09, 2018, 05:54:02 PM
Maybe Maggie's private supernatural school she's going to attend is very very expensive.

*cough* Ilvermorny *cough*

Word

...of Kemmler?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 09, 2018, 06:07:14 PM
*cough* Ilvermorny *cough*
Nope, Maggie's school is far less xenophobic, no Human-Only segregation
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 09, 2018, 07:25:22 PM
I don't think we can judge the gadgets of the Senior Council yet. We have not really seen them in as many varied situations as we have seen Harry which would necessitate the use of different foci. Since a foci could be anything (example silver buttons on a coat), we may have seen foci already and not been clued into their use. We will probably get a better glimpse of the Senior Council and their gadgets as the BAT approaches.

I'd be very, very interested in that. I want to see Ebenezer actually try.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 09, 2018, 07:50:44 PM
*rolls eyes at the supernatural school idea and at Maggie in general*
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 09, 2018, 08:01:55 PM
*rolls eyes at the supernatural school idea and at Maggie in general*

I like that she's away at a supernatural school...  Tells me she probably won't be in the main Dresden Files series too much.  She'll be in an offshoot series.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Lost Merlin on May 09, 2018, 08:05:08 PM
Maggie Dresden and the Spirit of Intellect
Maggie Dresden and the Blackened Denarious. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 09, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
Hope you are right, Groinkick.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: wardenferry419 on May 10, 2018, 12:13:04 AM
Kids are expensive. Especially kids very interested in tech. Better have a savings account, Harry.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 10, 2018, 12:15:33 AM
Mm, I bet Maggie won't be able to use tech. Thus she will need magic gadgets.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 10, 2018, 12:57:17 AM
Maggie Dresden and the Spirit of Intellect
Maggie Dresden and the Blackened Denarius. 

I hope not. While I don't really care much for Maggie as a concept, I think her getting taken by the Nickleheads would break Harry.

Also, if Maggie is a Potter analogue in her series, would that make Mouse Hermione (the way smarter and more capable friend of the MC?)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: peregrine on May 10, 2018, 02:05:08 AM
I hope not. While I don't really care much for Maggie as a concept, I think her getting taken by the Nickleheads would break Harry.

Also, if Maggie is a Potter analogue in her series, would that make Mouse Hermione (the way smarter and more capable friend of the MC?)
Eh, the kidnapping plot has been done (several times) by Jim.  Just because they're out there doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be going after Maggie.  Maybe some kid finds a coin and it keeps getting passed around from kid to kid doing some damage but never being there long enough to really do serious damage until Maggie whatevers it.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 10, 2018, 03:47:07 AM
If the Nickleheads are involved I can't see Nick not targeting Maghie tbh.

After all, her Daddy owes him a replacement daughter.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 10, 2018, 04:00:32 AM
uh.uh, that was his fault, not Harry's. Perhaps he could put some blaming in Mab.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 10, 2018, 05:19:19 AM
uh.uh, that was his fault, not Harry's. Perhaps he could put some blaming in Mab.

That all depends upon a certain point of view.

Ol' nicky's pov may not match with reality in this case.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 10, 2018, 11:18:20 AM
That all depends upon a certain point of view.

Ol' nicky's pov may not match with reality in this case.
Oh, he'll blame Harry for making the Plan go sideways, but he'd never let anyone give any CREDIT for the plan itself.  He doesnt even seem all that willing to share that credit with Anduriel...

And frankly, I suspect he has his hands full with a very Angry Tessa.  It very much was not HER plan, and then Nic couldnt even get Revenge right, getting scared off by a nerd in a tent-sized coat and something that OBVIOUSLY couldnt be a real lightsaber  ;)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 10, 2018, 01:26:08 PM
Oh, he'll blame Harry for making the Plan go sideways

I think Nick realizes it was his fault that Deirdre died (which is a dandy short tongue-twister), but will remain furious at Harry for making her death...unprofitable.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 10, 2018, 01:43:21 PM
Ok, that sounds well.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 10, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Oh, he'll blame Harry for making the Plan go sideways, but he'd never let anyone give any CREDIT for the plan itself.  He doesnt even seem all that willing to share that credit with Anduriel...

And frankly, I suspect he has his hands full with a very Angry Tessa.  It very much was not HER plan, and then Nic couldnt even get Revenge right, getting scared off by a nerd in a tent-sized coat and something that OBVIOUSLY couldnt be a real lightsaber  ;)
Maybe the nature of the Mantis will solve some problems eh?
I think yes, Nick, if given the chance, will go for Maggie, as a way of sharing the pain. If he had lost his girl, why should Dresden keep his, after all? But he's a creature centuries old, and characterized as ruthless, cunning, industrious and VERY patient. He makes plans, but doesn't get bent out of shape if they fail, as long as he accomplishes even a secondary mission. I don't think he'll go out of his way to harm Maggie.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 10, 2018, 04:22:43 PM
I'm adding an extra post so my post count is no longer 666. :)

Carry on.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 10, 2018, 04:56:45 PM
Serack, can you include this WOJ in the WOJ reference collection please. The transcription may need to be checked again for exact accuracy.

Hmm. Transcribing interesting quesetion about Murphy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHJU5NwFiXk
20:00

Prior topic
Harry's Life getting Easier...Do you see Harry's life getting easier?

(THis is only a rough draft of transcribed part.)

Do you see there being a cost for Murphy standing by him. I probably already know the answer to that.
What? Really do you?  We will see what happens. I'm pretty sure I know what happens.  But we'll see. 

Sometimes things happen when I'm writing, and there is several points in the series when I'm writing that I built big descisions for the character and then I don't know what he is going to choose until he gets there because there is going to be lot of different factors that goes into a choice anybody makes.  (Right) I wasn't sure what choice he was going to make up until that point.  So there is a slightly different version of the Dresden Files. One of the big ones is in Dead Beat when he has to decide how he is going to have to take on the bad guys in the end.  And he winds up grabbing the Word of Kemmler and reanimating the dinosaur and going to town.  ... There were 3 things. He could have gone with the Word of Kemmler.  He could have gone.  No, I'm thinking too far back, it was in Changes that he made the really huge one.  Changes was this giant gamble for me.  There were many things happening that I didn't know; and I didn't know how it would fall out afterwards.  So Changes, he is against the wall, his back is broke, his daughter is going to die, it is going to kill him too and other people around him and he has got to do something he hasn't done before, he has to change his boundaries.  And, so he has 3 choices, he can pick up the Word of Kemmler and go full on Necromancer and go against the Vampires like that.  He could summon Lasiel's coin to him still and he can still find that, he goes in as a denarian knight and takes them on, and his third choice is Mab.  And to take her offer and her power and go because Mab keeps her word. He says he is going to set this up so I'll go in and at least save her, but I won't be able to save me, I'm already done. So that was his thinking. That was why he went with Mab at the time.  Because he was in a place of such despair.  His biggest concern is 'but what if she makes me into a monster and has me kill people.' So he figures out a contingency for that as well.  He goes in and hopefully he can't lose.  Either way, he won't end up a monster and will get his daughter out and to her mother and safely away.  That was his plan.  There were these huge choices and different versions of the Dresden Files for, Harry the Necromancer, Harry the Denarian.  Once Nicodemus becomes your regular frenemy, you know that, that it would an interesting series but that would have gotten a lot darker.  The necromancer thing would have, I don't even know about that, Harry... That would have meant he had to pretend I'm a regular wizard all the time, but the necromancy would have kept cropping up and getting more serious.  But on the other hand, he could have been a white necromancer raising the spirits like he did in book 3.  When you write these things, you're not really sure what is going to happen.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 10, 2018, 07:03:47 PM
Quote
he could have been a white necromancer raising the spirits like he did in book 3


Interesting choice of words...
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 10, 2018, 07:08:53 PM

Interesting choice of words...

How so?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 11, 2018, 01:38:29 AM
The white nevernever didn't really seem like it was the option as Jim said it was full blown necromancer and then ended up throwing that white necro out there as a possibility. It wasn't the three main options. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 11:29:15 AM
How so?
It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 11, 2018, 12:50:33 PM
It was spelled out that Sue wasn't against the Laws of Magic as she wasn't Human.  I guess her instance was a form of Grey Necromancy perhaps, at least not Black.  Actually, he did try to control her at first vs he didn't try to control the ghosts in Grave Peril. So that may figure into the equation too but still it wasn't a Black act.

So, the method of the Necromancy is part of the determination of what is Black, or White, or Grey.  And the Method considers what type of entity is used, and what level of control is given to the entity raised.  I'd think if Harry had taken the Spirits in GP but bound them to his will against their will I'd say that would cross the line into a more Black magic than White.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 11, 2018, 02:56:32 PM
It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue
Sir Stuart explained it I think. Ghosts and other spirits are not supposed to pierce the veil to manifest or otherwise directly effect mortals... I think part of that is that mortal choice/fate thing. But a necromancer is empowering things that go directly against that on both accounts, bringing it back through and giving it a direct tie to his own mortal magic, the ability to effect fate. Remember it's always kept alive by said summoner just like binders men. They're enabled. *we know piercing the veil gives direct negative effects to said spirits, why wouldn't it contaminate those whom they are literally connected to?
Slight tangent, I think this goes also into the positive/negative aspect of the spiritual plain. With things like the fae possessing enough pull here to mantle a host without disagreeing with said law or simply to cross over of their own will. Something not everything can do.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 03:23:45 PM
Sir Stuart explained it I think. Ghosts and other spirits are not supposed to pierce the veil to manifest or otherwise directly effect mortals... I think part of that is that mortal choice/fate thing. But a necromancer is empowering things that go directly against that on both accounts, bringing it back through and giving it a direct tie to his own mortal magic, the ability to effect fate. Remember it's always kept alive by said summoner just like binders men. They're enabled. *we know piercing the veil gives direct negative effects to said spirits, why wouldn't it contaminate those whom they are literally connected to?
Slight tangent, I think this goes also into the positive/negative aspect of the spiritual plain. With things like the fae possessing enough pull here to mantle a host without disagreeing with said law or simply to cross over of their own will. Something not everything can do.
This was always something of a point of debate on that: whether there was any qualitative difference in the Energies behind the Ectomancy that Mort does and actual Necromancy.  In one theory they are using qualitatively different energies, one of which is safe (as much as normal Life magic use anyway) while the other is innately twisting.  In the other theory, which the concept of a White Necromancy supports, is the idea that the underlying energy is the same and is not innately Black, but that only certain uses of it is.

Among other things this tells me that Kumori is not nearly as Naive as Id been assuming. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 11, 2018, 06:06:29 PM
Mort used Harry's spirit against his will in GS, how is that different? I'm leaning towards the "Intent" theory.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 11, 2018, 06:23:09 PM
Quote
Among other things this tells me that Kumori is not nearly as Naive as Id been assuming.

Same for Cowl for that matter. He used the others necromancy fields to get close to ground zero of the Darkhallow.  He may have done it that way to limit the taint of black magic that comes with necromancy.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 07:00:44 PM
Mort used Harry's spirit against his will in GS, how is that different? I'm leaning towards the "Intent" theory.
If its the scene Im thinking of, I dont think he did (at least not in the strict subconscious Free Will sense).  He was "instinctively"  moving to save Mort and tripped.
Quote from: GS ch. 6
I moved on instinct, throwing myself uselessly between the weapon and the ectomancer. I tripped on a fragment of the ghost-dust-painted door and wound up falling in a heap on top of Mort and . . . . . . sunk into him.

Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 11, 2018, 07:33:08 PM
If its the scene Im thinking of, I dont think he did (at least not in the strict subconscious Free Will sense).  He was "instinctively"  moving to save Mort and tripped.
Yea, and Mort instinctively didn't fight it cause he knew Harry's experience and power was greater.
Quote
This was always something of a point of debate on that: whether there was any qualitative difference in the Energies behind the Ectomancy that Mort does and actual Necromancy.
I'd say absolutely... but it does start to get a bit nuanced in it's reasoning and intention. Like Stu surviving longer intact basically because of his purpose towards a part of life, his familial connections... Something eerily similar to the Rent paid elsewhere and the balances kept as well.. That's why I use the logic of the yin-yang and Bagua design literally everything started as wuji, one state, then yin-yang which spins the five elements out into the 8 manifestations(Mountain, Ocean, ect) into the 64 variations and so on. Which a cross with a nice mythos, I think Maori or somewhere close, that states basically the same thing except that all things that exist in the light exist first as shadows in the endlessly dividing darkness that seeks to reform as one state/being,whom I also cross here with Cronus/Chronos as well as the mentioned Slowest Terror/Hunter of Shadows. It sets a nice frame work so it doesn't boggle me to think about, and is not at all inaccurate in most ways. It's just finding what he actually did with the idea.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 11, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic

Of course it's not.  Kumori used it to keep injured people alive. 

Quote
as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue

Time travel isn't "black" magic but it's punishable by death.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 07:53:52 PM
Of course it's not.  Kumori used it to keep injured people alive. 
And harry used it to raise a zombie dinosaur. Which I been under the impression had still stained him with detectable black magic, same as his earlier run-in's with Black Magic had stained him in a detectable way. 


Quote
Time travel isn't "black" magic but it's punishable by death.
And stabbing a Senior Council Member in the face is punishable by death but is not Black Magic Council "Justice" is a wildly different topic.   :P
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 11, 2018, 09:13:13 PM
And harry used it to raise a zombie dinosaur. Which I been under the impression had still stained him with detectable black magic, same as his earlier run-in's with Black Magic had stained him in a detectable way. 
I don't think so... Maybe though.

Quote
And stabbing a Senior Council Member in the face is punishable by death but is not Black Magic Council "Justice" is a wildly different topic.   :P

Actually it's not.  There are no laws against killing senior council members.  It doesn't happen for 2 good reasons:  1.  They would probably kill you first, and 2.  Someone close to them is probably gonna come looking for you.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 09:33:16 PM
Actually it's not.  There are no laws against killing senior council members.  It doesn't happen for 2 good reasons:  1.  They would probably kill you first, and 2.  Someone close to them is probably gonna come looking for you.
You mean except for the guy that they hunted down and put on trial with full intention of executing for stabbing a senior council member?  :P
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 11, 2018, 09:35:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gmu76ritoQ 40:00

I didn't know this but Jim intends Harry to have Indiana Jones Fedora.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 11, 2018, 09:42:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gmu76ritoQ 40:00

I didn't know this but Jim intends Harry to have Indiana Jones Fedora.
Oh, ya, that hat has been sorta kinda established in canon already.  Apparently there exists a hat that LTW gave McCoy way back in the day.:


Shecky posted some very interesting information about LtW and Ebenezer McCoy in the quote below
A black staff
Overalls
Flannel shirt (several to choose from, actually)
Work boots
and I'm growing a beard, which comes in appropriately grey.

What I still need to know:

Does he regularly carry any other gear besides the Blackstaff?
What color flannel shirt?
Does he have a pentacle like Harry's and Thomas'?

Be sure you get old-school overalls, not something fancy and trendy; Ebenezar uses his clothes to work in. I don't remember where, but he was also described once with a white t-shirt, which will help with the Atlanta weather. Finally, he also wears spectacles—it's only mentioned in TC, but some fake wire-rims wouldn't hurt.

When I went to NYCC 2 years ago as Ebenezar, I used black latex to show the "infection" on his hand from the Blackstaff (which, oddly, only has the descriptions of "dark" and "twisted"). It was a fun little bit to add.

FWIW, I was a bit leery of shaving my head, so out of pique and a "what the hell" attitude, I sent a question to Jim about whether Eb wears a hat. He was MOST emphatic ("You bet he has a hat"); turns out he has a black leather OOOOOLD-style hat. Listens-to-Wind gave it to him at the end of their very long feud (Jim said the details are really horrible). LtW had taken it from the last surviving paleface from the group that killed his family, so yeah, it was an ugly thing all around. Anyway, this is the hat that I got and Jim approved fully:

http://www.sheplers.com/Minnetonka-Silverthorne-oiled-leather-hat/6964.pro
(http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/sheplers/096656_89_p1?hei=575&wid=470&op_sharpen=1&size=470.0,575.0)

Sadly, this hat is apparently no longer available. But that should give you some idea if you want to go that route.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 11, 2018, 09:51:08 PM
Yeah I had read that too. Thanks for reminding me of it.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 11, 2018, 10:34:30 PM
And harry used it to raise a zombie dinosaur. Which I been under the impression had still stained him with detectable black magic, same as his earlier run-in's with Black Magic had stained him in a detectable way. 

And stabbing a Senior Council Member in the face is punishable by death but is not Black Magic Council "Justice" is a wildly different topic.   :P
Here's a nice metaphor... Imagine a clear glass of water as someone's source of magic, this magic is effected directly by what they use it for, what they actually manifest, ect. squirting food coloring into it, say red for using fire magic, black ink for black magic, ect. well, once you squirt some ink into it the resulting alloy/mixture isn't ever gonna look quite the same even if you start dumping white out in to try an balance it... imagine the best you could hope for after a time is a deep purple. ;)
On the hat thing it's long been my belief that
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 12, 2018, 05:01:15 AM
You mean except for the guy that they hunted down and put on trial with full intention of executing for stabbing a senior council member?  :P

Don't recall that happening?  Even so, it's not in the laws of magic.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 12, 2018, 01:24:38 PM
Don't recall that happening?  Even so, it's not in the laws of magic.
Ehm, Turncoat?
But you do have a point. It's not in the laws of magic. However, the death of a wizard is considered Council business, and thus subject to investigation, capture and trial of the accused. It's not a mortal (heh) affair.
If its the scene Im thinking of, I dont think he did (at least not in the strict subconscious Free Will sense).  He was "instinctively"  moving to save Mort and tripped.

What? Like Harry tripped and Mort fell?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 12, 2018, 05:06:49 PM
Ehm, Turncoat?
But you do have a point. It's not in the laws of magic. However, the death of a wizard is considered Council business, and thus subject to investigation, capture and trial of the accused. It's not a mortal (heh) affair.

Quote
What? Like Harry tripped and Mort fell?
haha, no...well, yes?  (PHRASING!)  Harry /literally/ tripped on ghost dust while trying to save Mort, and fell, and ended up inside mort... (But since Harry wanted to save him and Mort didnt want to die, they vocally grumbled about the grossness but in actuality had Accepted it enough to not run afoul of the angel definition of Free Will.

(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/4/40057/2482831-archer-1-phrasing.jpg)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 12, 2018, 07:21:20 PM
Oh was that how Morgan was supposed to have killed someone?  I don't even remember.  Who did he kill????

Morgan was a warden and therefor trusted with security.  I wonder if a non warden/Council member killed a wizard it would matter?  I mean if Harry Dresden was gunned down by Marcone would the Council do anything?  I doubt it.  So if someone who wasn't given the duty of protecting the Council killed a member I wonder if the Council would respond the same way?

They probably only care if you kill someone of importance..  Senior Council members, or something like that.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 12, 2018, 08:40:52 PM
Oh was that how Morgan was supposed to have killed someone? I don't even remember.  Who did he kill????

Morgan was a warden and therefor trusted with security.  I wonder if a non warden/Council member killed a wizard it would matter?  I mean if Harry Dresden was gunned down by Marcone would the Council do anything?  I doubt it.  So if someone who wasn't given the duty of protecting the Council killed a member I wonder if the Council would respond the same way?

They probably only care if you kill someone of importance..  Senior Council members, or something like that.
Are you ok Groinkick...?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 12, 2018, 08:55:56 PM
Are you ok Groinkick...?

I have read each book once...  So how many years ago was Turn Coat? LoL   So all I remember from that book was that Morgan was accused of murder, being chased by Shagnasty, Peabody was the culprit ect..  Don't remember who Morgan was supposed to have killed though.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: raidem on May 12, 2018, 09:17:41 PM
Quote
You mean except for the guy that they hunted down and put on trial with full intention of executing for stabbing a senior council member?

Luccio was the one that actually did the stabbing.

Quote
Don't remember who Morgan was supposed to have killed though.
It was in Turn Coat.  I forget his name right now...Lafortier.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: wardenferry419 on May 14, 2018, 12:36:40 AM
We all have senile moments. I have about 10 a day.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 14, 2018, 02:55:07 AM
We all have senile moments. I have about 10 a day.
Yea I was in the middle of an online match today and I forgot where I was or what I was doing for a minute... it was very unsettling...
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 14, 2018, 03:03:37 AM
Oh, I can understand that. Sorry.
what kind of match?
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: LordDresden2 on May 18, 2018, 04:28:11 AM
uh.uh, that was his fault, not Harry's. Perhaps he could put some blaming in Mab.

You think so, I think so, but the question is does Nicodemus think so?  I fully expect him to go after Maggie in some way at some point.  That was foreshadowed in Skin Game, after all.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: LordDresden2 on May 18, 2018, 04:32:45 AM
Oh was that how Morgan was supposed to have killed someone?  I don't even remember.  Who did he kill????

Morgan was a warden and therefor trusted with security.  I wonder if a non warden/Council member killed a wizard it would matter?  I mean if Harry Dresden was gunned down by Marcone would the Council do anything?  I doubt it.  So if someone who wasn't given the duty of protecting the Council killed a member I wonder if the Council would respond the same way?

I would suspect that killing a Senior Councilor is Against The Rules even if it's not against the Laws of Magic.  It's the magical equivalent of assassination a head of state or the like.  For that matter, it's probably Against The Rules for one Council member to kill another in general, except maybe in formal duels or the like.  But it would be turned up to eleven for the SC.

They probably only care if you kill someone of importance..  Senior Council members, or something like that.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: LordDresden2 on May 18, 2018, 04:35:06 AM
Well, his bulletproofing enchantment on the duster is demonstrably second to at least Ebenezar's work, which protects the head and ankles even if they're not physically covered. Though I'm not sure whether he's actually marking up his robes with spells, or doing it some entirely different way.

I suspect we're going to have to take 'second to none' in a particular context.  That is, he's probably second-to-none in his age and weight category.  Of the Wizards who have experience and knowledge and power comparable to Harry, he's among the best at 'magitech'.  But I would be very surprised if he's literally among the best at it in the whole Council at his age.

Now, in a century or two...
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 18, 2018, 04:38:50 AM
You think so, I think so, but the question is does Nicodemus think so?  I fully expect him to go after Maggie in some way at some point.  That was foreshadowed in Skin Game, after all.

I hope you are wrong, because if he goes after Maggie he is dead (I would be so happy if he succeeds, before Harry kills him in a horrible way)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Mira on May 18, 2018, 04:44:25 AM
I hope you are wrong, because if he goes after Maggie he is dead (I would be so happy if he succeeds, before Harry kills him in a horrible way)

  But that would be merely revenge if Nic gets Maggie..  Very hollow if she ends up with a coin which would be really horrible..
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 18, 2018, 04:54:45 AM
Yes. that would be horrible. It won't happen.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 18, 2018, 05:07:16 AM
Yes. that would be horrible. It won't happen.

Would you laugh with joy if it did? haha
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 18, 2018, 05:10:41 AM
Actually no, it wouldn't get me rid of the brat, all the contrary.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 18, 2018, 05:21:07 AM
Actually no, it wouldn't get me rid of the brat, all the contrary.

What about Lord Voldmort showing up at her school and turning her into a horocrux? LoL
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 18, 2018, 05:25:29 AM
That would bring me 7 more books, 8 movies 5 prequels and probably a sequel, so...nope  :P
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 18, 2018, 05:27:21 AM
That would bring me 7 more books, 8 movies 5 prequels and probably a sequel, so...nope  :P

Nah, Harry Potter would be a much shorter story if Riddle had been going after Harry Dresden's kid.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 18, 2018, 11:51:01 AM
Nah, Harry Potter would be a much shorter story if Riddle had been going after Harry Dresden's kid.
If this were potter-world, Riddle would have been the guy that Adopted Harry in the first place. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 18, 2018, 11:45:03 PM
If this were potter-world, Riddle would have been the guy that Adopted Harry in the first place.
Wrong, he'd have adopted Mavra, she's just as sexy as he is. Match made in heaven.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 18, 2018, 11:49:38 PM
If this were potter-world, Riddle would have been the guy that Adopted Harry in the first place.

Pretty sure he'd have tried to kill Harry just like he tried to kill Potter.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Griffyn612 on May 19, 2018, 04:29:44 AM
Actually no, it wouldn't get me rid of the brat, all the contrary.
Dina be like...
(http://ginabrocker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/25.in_.home_.family.lifestyle.session.jpg)
(http://mo.morsi.org/images/snap.jpg)
(https://aptenvydotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/staircase-2.jpg?w=660)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/weeklyplanet/images/6/6e/Thanos2.png/revision/latest?cb=20170428002225)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 19, 2018, 04:43:51 AM
Oh yes!  :D
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: LordDresden2 on May 20, 2018, 05:11:22 AM
  But that would be merely revenge if Nic gets Maggie..  Very hollow if she ends up with a coin which would be really horrible..

This is actually more what I would expect, something along those lines.  Not necessarily exactly that, but simply killing Maggie is too easy, too quick.  From revenge, it would probably be more interesting and more manageable to somehow corrupt or taint Maggie.  Ideally, from Nicodemus' POV, that creates a situation where Harry must either kill his own child (thus in Nicodemus' twisted thinking equivalent to him and Dierdre) or live with the knowledge of what she has become.

I doubt giving her a Coin would be the preferred option, though.  Nicodemus would want something subtler, and harder to deal with, Coins can be and have been given up, after all.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Mira on May 22, 2018, 11:31:38 AM
Quote
This is actually more what I would expect, something along those lines.  Not necessarily exactly that, but simply killing Maggie is too easy, too quick.  From revenge, it would probably be more interesting and more manageable to somehow corrupt or taint Maggie.  Ideally, from Nicodemus' POV, that creates a situation where Harry must either kill his own child (thus in Nicodemus' twisted thinking equivalent to him and Dierdre) or live with the knowledge of what she has become.

 Harry having to kill Maggie would be a cruel twisted thing that Nic would love to arrange..  I think he might take it a step further, have Maggie sacrifice herself willingly for Harry as his daughter had done.  If Maggie had to be "put down" because of what she had become, Harry maybe wouldn't forgive himself but as seen in a mercy light learn to live with it.. Sacrifice herself though, perhaps like her mother, I don't think he could.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 22, 2018, 11:44:00 AM
Harry having to kill Maggie would be a cruel twisted thing that Nic would love to arrange..  I think he might take it a step further, have Maggie sacrifice herself willingly for Harry as his daughter had done.  If Maggie had to be "put down" because of what she had become, Harry maybe wouldn't forgive himself but as seen in a mercy light learn to live with it.. Sacrifice herself though, perhaps like her mother, I don't think he could.
Id almost see it as the opposite, mostly because of the Respect Their Choices theme harry has been on with his own personal growth.  He can respect a persons right to Choose now, but wouldnt forgive himself if they were "Pushed" and never got the chance to fix it (especially after all the supernatural second chances he has gotten).  Rather, if she Fell hard because of being Pushed and because of exposure to things and/or enemies in his life, and had to put her down himself would be hard.  THe only thing harder would be if one of his /Friends/ had to put her down, like say Sir Butters.  Then he'd be grieving more along the lines of Titania, with her Hate in Spite of knowing intellectually that it had to be done. 
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Mira on May 22, 2018, 03:49:25 PM
Id almost see it as the opposite, mostly because of the Respect Their Choices theme harry has been on with his own personal growth.  He can respect a persons right to Choose now, but wouldnt forgive himself if they were "Pushed" and never got the chance to fix it (especially after all the supernatural second chances he has gotten).  Rather, if she Fell hard because of being Pushed and because of exposure to things and/or enemies in his life, and had to put her down himself would be hard.  THe only thing harder would be if one of his /Friends/ had to put her down, like say Sir Butters.  Then he'd be grieving more along the lines of Titania, with her Hate in Spite of knowing intellectually that it had to be done.

It would be hard but if it was best for Maggie as well and the world, I think he could live with it, no matter who did it including himself.  Look at it as a form of suffering and putting an end to her suffering...  On the other hand if somehow she was convinced that her sacrifice was necessary for a goal much like Nic's daughter was, I don't think Harry could handle that.. Because  I believe he try to exhaust all other ways to accomplish the goal first..  If he failed, even if it was Maggie's choice I don't think he could live with that.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 22, 2018, 04:51:33 PM
It would be hard but if it was best for Maggie as well and the world, I think he could live with it, no matter who did it including himself.  Look at it as a form of suffering and putting an end to her suffering...  On the other hand if somehow she was convinced that her sacrifice was necessary for a goal much like Nic's daughter was, I don't think Harry could handle that.. Because  I believe he try to exhaust all other ways to accomplish the goal first..  If he failed, even if it was Maggie's choice I don't think he could live with that.
Oh, I very much think that SHE'd believe it, I just think the impact would be much worse for harry if he did not agree, but she went through with it anyway.  More a mirror to McCoy and Maggie, actually
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 22, 2018, 05:08:03 PM
I don't think Jim will be killing Maggie off.  He may need to help with the college tuition of his future grandchildren
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 22, 2018, 08:35:10 PM
Sadly, I agree  :P
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 23, 2018, 02:02:46 AM
I don't care much for Maggie myself, but I'd honestly be really annoyed if Jim killed her after everything Harry lost to save her.

My ideal solution is for her to be shipped off to Hogwarts whatever Jim called his magic school and then be busy not showing up in the main books.

Contain her in her own series where she can be safely ignored. Losing Mouse is a bit of a blow I admit, but it's worth it in the end.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 23, 2018, 02:38:44 AM
+1
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 23, 2018, 01:40:22 PM
I don't mind Maggie. I do mind the way she was introduced (randomly, with no build-up, and just old enough that Harry didn't have to deal with having a literal baby around, which a lot of authors like to skip (Twilight was infamous for this—all of the baby, none of the gross parts!)). I can see why she'd rub some the wrong way.

Personally, I think she'll be a great motivation for Harry to quell some of his more self-sacrificial/destructive tendencies, now that he's actually trying to be a dad.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 23, 2018, 02:32:07 PM
just old enough that Harry didn't have to deal with having a literal baby around,
Im not sure Eight qualifies as "just old enough to no be a literal baby", unless youre calling her a baby right up to the pre-teen years.  My niece is six and can already roll her eyes and be sarcastic.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 23, 2018, 02:40:03 PM
Im not sure Eight qualifies as "just old enough to no be a literal baby", unless youre calling her a baby right up to the pre-teen years.  My niece is six and can already roll her eyes and be sarcastic.

I'm quite familiar with six-year olds, and yeah, that's usually the case. I meant that he didn't have to go through changing diapers, potty training, bed wetting, crawling into his bed at night, et cetera et cetera. A lot of that drops off by three or four in many cases. Harry missed the parts of infancy and toddler-hood that are the hardest (though I often remind my sisters with their little ones that 1-6 months is the easy part; it's when they're ambulatory and trying to lick electrical sockets that you have to start freaking out). Harry got a daughter with her own personality, her own capabilities, and a level of autonomy he didn't have to encourage, monitor, or raise.

There are downsides to it, of course, and Harry went through plenty to get his daughter back at all. He paid for it in a very Dresden-ish way, and there's going to be a certain amount of sudden-onset-parenthood shock for him; I'm just saying he didn't have to put the work in.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 23, 2018, 02:57:58 PM
I'm quite familiar with six-year olds, and yeah, that's usually the case. I meant that he didn't have to go through changing diapers, potty training, bed wetting, crawling into his bed at night, et cetera et cetera. A lot of that drops off by three or four in many cases. Harry missed the parts of infancy and toddler-hood that are the hardest (though I often remind my sisters with their little ones that 1-6 months is the easy part; it's when they're ambulatory and trying to lick electrical sockets that you have to start freaking out). Harry got a daughter with her own personality, her own capabilities, and a level of autonomy he didn't have to encourage, monitor, or raise.

There are downsides to it, of course, and Harry went through plenty to get his daughter back at all. He paid for it in a very Dresden-ish way, and there's going to be a certain amount of sudden-onset-parenthood shock for him; I'm just saying he didn't have to put the work in.
Fair enough.  There is a reason there are not many successful fiction series featuring a new parent battling sleep deprivation and diapers, though.  I honestly think skipping that part is doing US a favor more than anything.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 23, 2018, 04:20:25 PM
Fair enough.  There is a reason there are not many successful fiction series featuring a new parent battling sleep deprivation and diapers, though.  I honestly think skipping that part is doing US a favor more than anything.
There are plenty of narrative reasons to do it, but there are also plenty of narrative methods to deal with that creatively, without a Sudden Parenthood MOAB. I would've been WAY more on board with Harry's "I MUST PROTECT MY DAUGHTER" attitude in Changes if we had known he'd had a daughter for longer than five pages. I get it, and there are character reasons for Harry to immediately be Papa Bear, but I wasn't Papa Bear alongside him, if that makes sense. In Changes, Maggie is a MacGuffin, and I tend to prefer it when MacGuffins aren't people.

For instance, when Molly is taken in Proven Guilty, I was worried about her, because I knew who Molly was, and liked her character. If Harry was instead chasing after, say, Sandra Marling, or Boyfriend Nelson, my reaction would be "Meh."

Don't get me wrong, Changes is in my top three, but mostly because of the lunatic pacing. I would've been way more invested in Harry's primary motivation if I had anything to invest in, aside from Harry's desires.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 23, 2018, 04:53:02 PM
That sounds about right
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Quantus on May 23, 2018, 05:04:04 PM
I guess I can understand why her sudden appearance would be off-putting compared to established characters like Molly.  I dont mind it as much because I like when these sorts of stories (especially ones that have gone on as long as Dresden has) remind the audience that there is a lot of other crap happening out there in the story-world, so that Significant things dont always have to happen near the Main Character.  Some of my favorite stories made their fantasy world seem so much richer simply by mentioning other events or legend or whatsoever entirely in passing.

I also didnt come down on the anti-Susan side of things, so I actively wanted Susan to come back and be relevant again.  She was either actively participating or else was a primary motivation for all the the first five books, then wasnt mentioned again beyond the Other Ex that Ended Badly for another seven. Saying she dropped off his radar on purpose to hide their love-child from his horrifically dangerous lifestyle felt realistic and thematically interesting in the sense of highlighting the difficulty of the morally grey.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 23, 2018, 05:28:40 PM
I think Harry's response to a child he didn't know was that he could relate to being alone with nobody to protect him.  Although I cannot relate I'm wondering if anyone raised in foster care or something similar found themselves loving Harry even more because he loved his child so much even though he hadn't met her.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 23, 2018, 06:33:35 PM
I guess I can understand why her sudden appearance would be off-putting compared to established characters like Molly.  I dont mind it as much because I like when these sorts of stories (especially ones that have gone on as long as Dresden has) remind the audience that there is a lot of other crap happening out there in the story-world, so that Significant things dont always have to happen near the Main Character.  Some of my favorite stories made their fantasy world seem so much richer simply by mentioning other events or legend or whatsoever entirely in passing.

I also didnt come down on the anti-Susan side of things, so I actively wanted Susan to come back and be relevant again.  She was either actively participating or else was a primary motivation for all the the first five books, then wasnt mentioned again beyond the Other Ex that Ended Badly for another seven. Saying she dropped off his radar on purpose to hide their love-child from his horrifically dangerous lifestyle felt realistic and thematically interesting in the sense of highlighting the difficulty of the morally grey.

I should clarify that I don't mind Maggie as a character, and I'm not opposed to her being involved or anything, I just would've liked it if I could have developed my own connection to her character before she became the primary motivation for Harry's path of destruction in Changes.

Imagine Harry and Susan had the fight from the beginning of Changes in, say, Dead Beat, and Harry's experience with the Darkhallow and zombies literally beating down his door led him to believe it would be best for Maggie to be raised apart from him. He comes to precisely the same conclusion at the end of Changes, and has Maggie brought to Father Forthill, except as a baby. Susan is in no position to be around infants because of her bloodthirst and her own militia activity, Harry realizes his home isn't safe, and Maggie left to foster care. Harry could have received updates throughout the series, or have it be a frequent source of pain for him. Then when she's taken in Changes, it would have significantly more impact; she would have grown up, at least partially, within the context of the series, and we might've had a stronger connection to her.

I don't know; I'm not Jim. If it had gone down the way I say, then I very well might be complaining that there wasn't enough characterization, or something else entirely. I just know that I'm not too fond of the way Maggie was introduced to the series, and can't help but think it could've been handled in a more interesting, impactful way.

And yeah, I get that it provides a reason for Susan to be gone from the series, but I never really saw her as particularly important. I think her half-vampire struggles were enough reason.

I think Harry's response to a child he didn't know was that he could relate to being alone with nobody to protect him.  Although I cannot relate I'm wondering if anyone raised in foster care or something similar found themselves loving Harry even more because he loved his child so much even though he hadn't met her.

Yeah, his desires make character sense, which is what I alluded to earlier; my issue was just that I didn't have anything to latch onto. My hook was that Harry was motivated; I didn't have a particular reason to care about the outcome, except how it would impact Harry and His Superfriends. I use Molly as an example; I cared about what happened to Molly in Proven Guilty, not just that Harry Was In a Pickle.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Mira on May 23, 2018, 08:52:45 PM
I guess I can understand why her sudden appearance would be off-putting compared to established characters like Molly.  I dont mind it as much because I like when these sorts of stories (especially ones that have gone on as long as Dresden has) remind the audience that there is a lot of other crap happening out there in the story-world, so that Significant things dont always have to happen near the Main Character.  Some of my favorite stories made their fantasy world seem so much richer simply by mentioning other events or legend or whatsoever entirely in passing.

I also didnt come down on the anti-Susan side of things, so I actively wanted Susan to come back and be relevant again.  She was either actively participating or else was a primary motivation for all the the first five books, then wasnt mentioned again beyond the Other Ex that Ended Badly for another seven. Saying she dropped off his radar on purpose to hide their love-child from his horrifically dangerous lifestyle felt realistic and thematically interesting in the sense of highlighting the difficulty of the morally grey.

I see the pattern somewhat repeating itself with Murphy,  no longer in law enforcement, while not old, getting past the age to go one one one or even to be part of a team against the kind of enemy that Harry is facing these days... Now debilitating injury on top of it...  I know her die hard fans will settle for her being a port or perhaps some super computer sleuth, but face it, that isn't the Murphy that endeared herself to us..  Perhaps that is how it will play itself out, Murphy will voluntarily remove herself from the picture.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 23, 2018, 09:20:54 PM
I liked Susan at first, then hated her. I will never forgive her
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: forumghost on May 24, 2018, 01:42:07 AM
I just hate that someone as important as Harry's daughter should be has bern reduced to a plot device to force the story in the direction Jim wants to take it, instead of being a real character.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Kindler on May 24, 2018, 02:38:55 PM
I just hate that someone as important as Harry's daughter should be has bern reduced to a plot device to force the story in the direction Jim wants to take it, instead of being a real character.

In fairness, I believe that this is going to change moving forward, starting with the novella in Brief Cases. Until this point in the story, Harry was coming around to realizing that he needed to have a relationship with her at all, and now that he's done that, he can start to have that relationship. We'll get to see Maggie become an actual person rather than a plot device—I think. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I don't see how we could avoid getting real characterization with Maggie and Harry in such close proximity. For me, that's what it took for Thomas to become more than Dionysian Love God with a Possible Heart of Gold, and turn into Harry's brother.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 24, 2018, 07:51:22 PM
Exactly why I am worried for the next books. Maggie will become more important.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: jonas on May 24, 2018, 08:41:54 PM
Exactly why I am worried for the next books. Maggie will become more important.
Oh yes, the real proof of this to me is Mouse, whose obviously got an agenda of his own, is now her personal guard dog. The monster under the bed was probably as real as Dresden thought.(woj of things only kids can see.)
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: groinkick on May 25, 2018, 07:01:05 PM
Exactly why I am worried for the next books. Maggie will become more important.

I think in the BAT she will be (she will be in her late teens by then or older) but in these next few books I don't think so.
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Dina on May 25, 2018, 08:39:38 PM
*crosses fingers*
Title: Re: Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago
Post by: Fcrate on May 25, 2018, 08:49:21 PM
Ooh the hate!