ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 20, 2018, 04:05:50 AM
-
If Jim did in fact drop some fake info out there I think it could be that Justin is D E D dead. Me thinks that Justin is Cowl, and Kumori is Elaine.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/P2Hy88rAjQdsQ/giphy.gif)
-
If Jim did in fact drop some fake info out there I think it could be that Justin is D E D dead. Me thinks that Justin is Cowl, and Kumori is Elaine.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/P2Hy88rAjQdsQ/giphy.gif)
I'm more a fan of the "Justin became Kemmler" theory, primarily due to this wording...
2006 Buzzy Multimedia Interview: (first question on video)
Okay, I just wanna say I finished reading Proven Guilty just a while ago and I have a real quick question before the serious interview: “Justin’s behind everything, isn’t he?”
Justin’s dead…look, look…he’s dead, he’s dead.
Dead, dead?
Jim: He’s dead!
Very dead?
Jim: D-E-D dead.
Are you ever gonna change your answer, dead?
Jim: Dead.
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#245 “How dead is Kemmler? About as dead as Justin, maybe?”
Oh, at least that dead.
I know it's a stretch, but that wording is perfect.
-
Actually, I think you are on to something.
It seemed like Evil Bob in Dead Beat believed Kemmler was going to come back. Evil Bob even used some death magic on Harry prior to Harry rescinding his at leave privileges from the skull. I believe Evil Bob, or at least the Bob's generically, may have a way to bring back Kemmler himself given opportunity. I could see Evil Bob potentially trying something on Justin. And that he may have used his recently departed master (Justin) to open a way to Kemmler.
I do think we will see him again. I actually would like to see him on Team Universe side though as an anti-Nemesis agent. I wonder if Mab used him in some of her more nasty plans.
-
Without reading glasses, I read this topic as “Cowl is Justin Robot. I love the idea that Cowl is a Justin robot. It’s my new favourite theory.
-
If Jim did in fact drop some fake info out there I think it could be that Justin is D E D dead. Me thinks that Justin is Cowl, and Kumori is Elaine.
Except that Kumori is dead, I know she's into necromancy and all, but she didn't really have time to prepare any tricks.
-
Except that Kumori is dead, I know she's into necromancy and all, but she didn't really have time to prepare any tricks.
Imma need a big ol' bag of [citation needed] on Kumori being axed please
-
I think Butcher made an off-handed comment about seeing her again; as if he forgot that she is "presumed dead."
-
Last we see of Kumori is her getting hit by Bob/Sue which she could have survived, and then who knows where she went from there?
-
She went to L.A. to resume her Elaine cover.
-
I think Butcher made an off-handed comment about seeing her again; as if he forgot that she is "presumed dead."
Yeah, there's a WOJ along the lines of 'why kill her off right away when her identity can cause Harry pain later?'. That one is pretty foundational to the speculation on who she might be.
I don't think the T-rex even hit her - she turned tail and rain. Bob just assumed the explosion was big enough to get her.
-
Hm, I went back and read that DeadBeat, and it appears that you are correct, there is no confirmation that Kumori is dead. In fact, her Master, Cowl, survived the collapsing vortex, which is supposed to be impossible. It makes sense that the apprentice a few feet away, in the same position "and probably league" as Harry would be able to survive.
-
If Kumori was right there with Cowl, she probably would have had a poor chance of actually making it out alive. Harry after all had a big undead T-rex shield. But we have no idea where she is when everything goes to hell, she could have been long gone by that time. With the NN being a thing, it only takes a moment to be safe from any kind of local destruction.
-
Actually, the T-Rex shield was for Ramirez. And Kumori was more or less in the same place Harry way.
-
Whoops, you're right, I forgot about that. I should probably reread the series and get a refresher.
-
With the NN being a thing, it only takes a moment to be safe from any kind of local destruction.
Slight tangent, but is it possible that the Darkhallow was strong enough to reach into the Nevernever?
-
I 💯 agree that Cowl is Justin. I was there biggest proponent of Cowl being Christos for a bit, but after a close "from first principles" reading of Dead Beat*, it's obvious-- from the focus on flashing back to Justin training Harry, to Cowl's knowledge of Bob, to Cowl's skills as a necromancer answering how Justin is still alive, that Cowl IS Justin. If it was a fakeout, it would have gotten more attention from the text by now.
* The same kind of reading that led me to conclude from Proven Guilty that:
- Titania was grooming Molly for Summer Lady. Maeve hijacked that with Sandra Marling and a very bad idea.
- Harry has mentally time traveled back to the events of this book. Teaming up with Lash, he fakes the car accident and fixes Little Chicago.
-
I 💯 agree that Cowl is Justin. I was there biggest proponent of Cowl being Christos for a bit, but after a close "from first principles" reading of Dead Beat*, it's obvious-- from the focus on flashing back to Justin training Harry, to Cowl's knowledge of Bob, to Cowl's skills as a necromancer answering how Justin is still alive, that Cowl IS Justin. If it was a fakeout, it would have gotten more attention from the text by now.
* The same kind of reading that led me to conclude from Proven Guilty that:
- Titania was grooming Molly for Summer Lady. Maeve hijacked that with Sandra Marling and a very bad idea.
- Harry has mentally time traveled back to the events of this book. Teaming up with Lash, he fakes the car accident and fixes Little Chicago.
I'm onboard with Harry TT in proven guilty to do the car crash and fix Little Chicago. I've also thought that there was something fishy about Sandra Marling. However, you lost me with Titania grooming Molly and Maeve's involvement with Sandra. Would you be willing to expound on that or direct me to where you have previously detailed that theory?
-
Teaming up with Lash, he fakes the car accident and fixes Little Chicago.
This is where I strongly disagree with you. The scene of the accident is described as Harry having been hit in the back of the car. So if there was actual damage to the back of the car, that isn't a fake accident.
Harry has mentally time traveled back to the events of this book.
I've been a long proponent that Harry will time travel back via Sub Harry and particular places in which part of "no matter where you go, there you are" occur, particularly the 'there your are' bit. There are no "there you are" in Proven Guilty but there does seem much likelihood that Harry will revisit Proven Guilty, but I don't think it will be mental time travel. I think it will be the big deal. I equate mental time travel to Sub Harry, though in retrospect Lash does say it is easier for her to talk to him than Harry.
-
I 💯 agree that Cowl is Justin. I was there biggest proponent of Cowl being Christos for a bit, but after a close "from first principles" reading of Dead Beat*, it's obvious-- from the focus on flashing back to Justin training Harry, to Cowl's knowledge of Bob, to Cowl's skills as a necromancer answering how Justin is still alive, that Cowl IS Justin. If it was a fakeout, it would have gotten more attention from the text by now.
Cowl's knowledge of Bob. Excellent point. Now that I think about it, there is something extremely fishy about Cowl knowing that Harry has the very same Spirit of Intellect that Kemmler used.
-
Cowl's knowledge of Bob. Excellent point. Now that I think about it, there is something extremely fishy about Cowl knowing that Harry has the very same Spirit of Intellect that Kemmler used.
Doubly so, since this information couldn't have come from the Council; Luccio believes Bob was destroyed or was lost after Kemmler died. So either Cowl knows that Harry had him since Justin died, or he deduced it because he knew that Justin grabbed him.
If it's the former, then we don't really have a lot to go on, because he could be any one of a hundred people who could have found out in the (twenty? thirty?) years since Harry took him.
If it's the latter, then it seems likely that Cowl is either A) Justin, B) a former apprentice of his, C) a Warden who saw Justin take Bob, or D) an old friend of Justin's who he trusted enough to let him see Bob.
Or... hmm. Interesting. What if Cowl met Evil Bob shortly after Bob cut him off? He is a necromancer...
-
Cowl could have known about bob through being a Kemmlerite. Cowl could have then learned harry had bob through Bianca or a source at her place after GP.
-
Would you be willing to expound on that or direct me to where you have previously detailed that theory?
[Link] (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43840.msg2116064.html#msg2116064)
This is where I strongly disagree with you. The scene of the accident is described as Harry having been hit in the back of the car. So if there was actual damage to the back of the car, that isn't a fake accident.
I seem to recall Murph or Harry noting that they couldn't tell if there was any new damage.
Could be wrong, though.
Now, back onto the topic of Cowl:
Yes, someone working with Justin who already knew about the Word of Kemmler existing inside the skull could have deduced that Dresden would have the skull.
I guess.
I still think that the textual Doylist cluebat is the big deal breaker. Harry spends a lot of time flashing back to Justin in this book. I don't think that's typical, and it's not really THAT relevant to the plot. Flashing back to Harry meeting BOB, sure, and flashbacks with Bob and Justin, sure, but we don't get those.
So there's that. Plus mentioning Harry's dead mentor in the big necromancy book and pointing out that Justin was the disciple of a powerful necromancer and had that guy's notes... Lots of clues that Justin isn't D-E-D dead in the book that introduces Cowl.
(As for where Kumori is during White Night... Elaine is in White Night and Cowl is preying on her people. Maybe Kumori has reformed?)
-
Elaine is summer property in my estimation, so I doubt Justin as cowl would continue to control her unless it was in summer's interests.
After reading Amber and reading a plot surrounding merlins girlfriend/one time slight apprentice, I think of Harry and some of the women in his life. One woman that makes it onscreen but doesn't get much play is Kim Delaney. I wouldn't put it past possibility that we will see a return of Kim Delaney. With mirror mirror we now have precedence for stunt doubles taking the death hit. In amber, Merlin goes on believing his exgirlfriend was killed because he had seen the body. She isn't dead and becomes his nemesis.
-
Elaine is summer property in my estimation, so I doubt Justin as cowl would continue to control her unless it was in summer's interests.
Who was right by the side of the Nemfected Summer Lady? Elaine..
-
I have often felt that Elaine was involved in starting the Nemfection of Fae.
-
And yes, you can argue Elaine may have had some role in getting nemesis into Summer Court. Maybe, maybe not. In any event, Titania didn't cash Elaine in. She allowed her own daughter to die. If Titania believes Elaine had some accidental role in nemesis getting into the court, I'm sure that Summer likely cut such influences on Elaine to safeguard their asset. She is a potential Starborn.
-
And yes, you can argue Elaine may have had some role in getting nemesis into Summer Court. Maybe, maybe not. In any event, Titania didn't cash Elaine in. She allowed her own daughter to die. If Titania believes Elaine had some accidental role in nemesis getting into the court, I'm sure that Summer likely cut such influences on Elaine to safeguard their asset. She is a potential Starborn.
Well, she was a potential Starborn when Justin adopted her. I don't think being a Starborn is one of those things that you can become. I think it's something that you either are, or are not. The potentiality part was when she met enough of the criteria that Justin thought she might be, and for whatever reason he couldn't confirm it entirely, so he just picked the best candidates.
-
And yes, you can argue Elaine may have had some role in getting nemesis into Summer Court. Maybe, maybe not. In any event, Titania didn't cash Elaine in. She allowed her own daughter to die. If Titania believes Elaine had some accidental role in nemesis getting into the court, I'm sure that Summer likely cut such influences on Elaine to safeguard their asset. She is a potential Starborn.
Well I think Justin did that at Bianca's party. I'm thinking more like Elaine is his eyes, and ears out in the world. He keeps to the shadows. So I think Elaine stayed close to Aurora to see how things were unfolding. Or possibly to nudge her in the desired direction Justin wanted her to go along with Nemesis.
-
If Elaine/Kumori is Cowl's eyes and ears and she is connected to the paranet; then Cowl may well be the most informed of Harry's problems.
-
If Elaine/Kumori is Cowl's eyes and ears and she is connected to the paranet; then Cowl may well be the most informed of Harry's problems.
It may have started by Elaine and Harry, but remember, neither of them can use a computer. The paranet is online and available to everyone, Cowl won't need a spy to know of his paranet-related problems.
-
I don't think Elaine is under cowl or Justin control now.
-
I don't think Elaine is under cowl or Justin control now.
Tough to tell... She hasn't had much face time in the books, and she is somewhat mysterious. Harry thought she was dead for a long time... She was completely off the grid. The Council doesn't know about her, Harry doesn't really know much about her, and neither do we.
-
Tough to tell... She hasn't had much face time in the books, and she is somewhat mysterious. Harry thought she was dead for a long time... She was completely off the grid. The Council doesn't know about her, Harry doesn't really know much about her, and neither do we.
If she were Nemfected/Under Cowl or Justin's control, why would she save Harry and then give him a chance to disrupt Aurora's greenpeaceageddon? Doesn't make sense to me.
She also openly admitted to Harry at the beginning of Summer Knight that she was Justin's thrall. That would be counterproductive as Harry had no reason to suspect it to begin with. I agree with raidem, she's not under any known influence now.
-
Well if Justin is alive, then we now have a person who likely is responsible for the Red's successful assault on Archangel. One of the reasons Harry was suspected of being behind Simon's downfall was that he was Simon's apprentice-apprentice. So, the logic goes Justin would have taught Harry secret knowledge about how Simon may have created his wards. When we read Summer Knight, we then get exposed to the second apprentice of Justin who could feasibly have been taught but that is a stretch too. The speculation on Justin's apprentices ability to even be able compromise Archangels defenses need not see the light of day if Justin is alive. So, if he is alive then we must take into consideration that he assaulted or provided secret knowledge to the Reds in their assault on Archangel.
This actually makes sense now. Justin or (Cowl) made a deal with the Reds to compromise Archangel in getting their support to divert White Council attention during Dead Beat. This would help him out during Dead Beat so as to get him to ascend to Godhood. And then like the novels say, the new god could destroy the wards protecting the senior council.
-
Well if Justin is alive, then we now have a person who likely is responsible for the Red's successful assault on Archangel. One of the reasons Harry was suspected of being behind Simon's downfall was that he was Simon's apprentice-apprentice. So, the logic goes Justin would have taught Harry secret knowledge about how Simon may have created his wards. When we read Summer Knight, we then get exposed to the second apprentice of Justin who could feasibly have been taught but that is a stretch too. The speculation on Justin's apprentices ability to even be able compromise Archangels defenses need not see the light of day if Justin is alive. So, if he is alive then we must take into consideration that he assaulted or provided secret knowledge to the Reds in their assault on Archangel.
This actually makes sense now. Justin or (Cowl) made a deal with the Reds to compromise Archangel in getting their support to divert White Council attention during Dead Beat. This would help him out during Dead Beat so as to get him to ascend to Godhood. And then like the novels say, the new god could destroy the wards protecting the senior council.
(http://vonblancofitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/its-all-part-of-the-plan.jpeg)
-
Well if Justin is alive, then we now have a person who likely is responsible for the Red's successful assault on Archangel....
This actually makes sense now. Justin or (Cowl) made a deal with the Reds to compromise Archangel in getting their support to divert White Council attention during Dead Beat. This would help him out during Dead Beat so as to get him to ascend to Godhood. And then like the novels say, the new god could destroy the wards protecting the senior council.
Cowl = Simon explains that far more satisfactorily.
-
That requires Simon willingly sacrificing his own Home to the Reds in a staged action to hide his role in things.
-
One problem with Justin=Cowl is Harry was around Justin for years. As his powers came in; and especially whenever Justin did even the slightest magical thing, Harry would have gotten a feeling for Justin's magic. He mentions that Cowl's magic feels different. He even describes it. Don't you think Harry would have noticed that it felt at least somewhat similar to the magic his old master used? B'cause I'm not buying the idea that Justin's magic could have changed so radically in the time between the time Harry saw Justin die and Dead Beat.
-
That requires Simon willingly sacrificing his own Home to the Reds in a staged action to hide his role in things.
Sacrifice your castle for a long game to become a god? Yeah, why ever would someone do that?
-
More importantly, Allowing the Reds to take out an entire Council Stronghold and several of their big guns in one shot means that they can't really afford to try and back out of the War any more (seriously, the fact that the Council was considering capitulation after that attack is kinda silly)
-
One problem with Justin=Cowl is Harry was around Justin for years. As his powers came in; and especially whenever Justin did even the slightest magical thing, Harry would have gotten a feeling for Justin's magic. He mentions that Cowl's magic feels different. He even describes it. Don't you think Harry would have noticed that it felt at least somewhat similar to the magic his old master used? B'cause I'm not buying the idea that Justin's magic could have changed so radically in the time between the time Harry saw Justin die and Dead Beat.
This is the most significant reason I don't think Cowl is Justin or Ebenezer. A decade or two isn't long enough for your magic's signature to be all that different, without picking up a mantle somewhere that alters its fundamental elements. For example, I'd assume that Harry's signature has altered significantly with all of the different things that've been tacked on—Hellfire at one point, Soulfire, and the Winter Knight's Mantle.
(It's also one of the reasons I think Elaine might actually be Kumori, though I don't like the idea for a host of other reasons; she never actually hits Harry with magic, and even holds a knife to Harry's throat).
-
Sacrifice your castle for a long game to become a god? Yeah, why ever would someone do that?
There was no guarantee for it. He already had those wizards as allies.
Anyways, if we are thinking about someone being able to compromise Archangel's defenses, I think we should now extend that list to Nemesis. Nemesis is possibly able to bypass Gatekeepers wards at Outergates, I'm sure it can handle Simon's wards too. Peabody also got Mistfiend into Edinburgh, so that is another example of someone bypassing the security wards. Also, Peabody could have uses his influences on some of the younger wardens stationed at Archangel to open up a whole in its defense allowing Reds entry. These don't require Justin nor Simon complicity.
-
I wonder if the attack on Winter was Justin trying to get back Leah because she's aware of him being alive. I suspect that he's the one who had Harry's mother killed (used Lord Raith probably), he used HWWB to test Harry as Harry suspected he was being tested in hindsight, used Leah to give Harry the confidence he needed, used Harry to fake his death and knew Harry would be spared because of Eb being his Grandfather. I think Elaine gave Harry an escape, because his death is not desired by Justin. I think Justin has (with the help of something above him) been using Dresden, testing him, and directing him.
-
Harry has subconscious Harry that has manipulated Harry's actions to a limited degree. What if Elaine has a subconscious Elaine called Kumori that has a more active means of influencing Elaine? Both Harry and Elaine were undergoing some sort of long-term mind control by Justin. Harry was more resistant. Maybe, their subconscious parts reflect that conditioning?
-
I think that is making Justin into too big of a player. It is giving him too much credit.
-
There was no guarantee for it. He already had those wizards as allies.
Anyways, if we are thinking about someone being able to compromise Archangel's defenses, I think we should now extend that list to Nemesis. Nemesis is possibly able to bypass Gatekeepers wards at Outergates, I'm sure it can handle Simon's wards too. Peabody also got Mistfiend into Edinburgh, so that is another example of someone bypassing the security wards. Also, Peabody could have uses his influences on some of the younger wardens stationed at Archangel to open up a whole in its defense allowing Reds entry. These don't require Justin nor Simon complicity.
Those are all also valid possibilities, some of them quite credible.
But the brute squad were only Simon's allies so long as they thought he was a proper Senior Council leader. If he wanted to chase the Darkhallow, I can't see any but a handful of personal loyalists actually backing him in it. And if he started being absent at the wrong times because of doing Cowl things, one of them might have figured it out.
-
I think that is making Justin into too big of a player. It is giving him too much credit.
While I agree with you, keep in mind that Justin was part of Maggie/Raith's Legion of Doom at one point.
-
Where are you getting that from? He knew Maggie, sure, but Raith?
-
Where are you getting that from? He knew Maggie, sure, but Raith?
Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie.... He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith. Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....
-
Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie.... He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith. Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....
I'm going to just write some things here, because I've got some thoughts and questions, so forgive me if this appears to ramble.
Are we sure it was Justin who sent him? I don't have the text at hand right now, and I can't recall if it's explicitly stated that Justin summoned HWWB at all. I tend to think it was him, because testing Harry's Starborn-ness would fall in line with what Justin's intentions appear to have been. But why would Justin go through all the trouble to find a Starborn only to test his ability to fight Outsiders with one of the KNIGHTS? He Who Walks Behind and He Who Walks Before are stupidly strong; wouldn't it make more sense to test Harry against a (relative) baby Outsider, just to see if his magic would stick to it? And if there was a deal made with HWWB, what the hell did it get in exchange for not immediately dicing Harry into bite-sized bits?
Personally, I'd think that there are a few options: either A) HWWB just really liked to play with his food, and he really was trying to kill Harry, either at someone's behest, or the opportunity to kill Harry, a Starborn, was payment as part of a deal, B) there's a lot more to this Starborn thing than we know. I don't think it would be in the Outsiders' best interest to keep alive someone whose magic actually worked on them. To me, that means that Starborn have something to offer the Outsiders, something significant, something that makes it worth the risk of keeping a strong enemy alive. Maybe Starborn are the only ones who can open the Gates from this side?
-
I think the Outsiders probably wanted to turn Starborn against the Queens. Or even use them to make free willed choices that would end up bringing in more Outsiders. Like you said, maybe having a Starborn on their side attacking the OuterGates from the inside would help the Outsiders chances at bringing them down.
-
Justin trained under an expert on the Red Court, was a warden, ran around with Maggie.... He had to know of Raith, and because Justin wasn't a good guy he probably would have reached out to people like Raith. Justin summoned He Who Walks Behind to go after Harry, and Lord Raith summoned He Who Walks Behind in the tunnels....
Knowing of someone does not mean they know someone, much less are part of what must be a fairly exclusive cabal.
-
Knowing of someone does not mean they know someone, much less are part of what must be a fairly exclusive cabal.
It could be assumed that Raith, and Maggie's idea of creating a Starborn was somewhat of a secret, yet Justin ended up with the Starborn..
-
What we know and don't know Justin DuMorne; and what we may assume about him.
Maggie tried to get Ebenezer to join in an unknown (to us) scheme with Duchess Arianna and Lord Raith. Justin DuMorne was also one of her associates. However, we don't know if Justin was associated with Margaret LeFey at the same time she was working with Lord Raith. She could have made different allies at different times and in different circumstances.
Justin removed Harry from an orphanage shortly after Harry's magic ability started to emerge. We can assume something similar for Elaine, but we don't know for certain. There might be important differences in how and why Justin selected each of them, but we have nothing to confirm this possibility.
We can assume Justin wasn't on the run from the White Council when he adopted Harry and Elaine. If he had been on the run it seems unlikely he could live in one place very long with any degree of safety and raise two teenagers at the same time. From this we can also assume that whatever his true relationship was to Harry's mother, from the White Council's perspective it couldn't have looked nefarious, at least as long as they didn't look too closely. Many wizards must have known Margaret before she had broken any of the Laws of Magic, and Justin might have claimed that he hadn't been in contact with her after she went rogue, even if that wasn't true.
HWWB knew Justin DuMorne or knew enough about him to drop his name when the Walker was talking to Harry the first time they met. Harry assumed Justin called HWWB behind to go after Harry after he ran away. That was a logical assumption for Harry to make, but we don't know with certainty if this was the case.
We don't know how the events played out that lead to Justin's death. (Assuming he did in fact die.) The early books are a little vague on the details. We know Elaine hit Harry with a binding that he was eventually able to break. There was also an attempt to force Harry to drink human blood in some type of ritual which we can assume would have enthralled Harry to Justin's will. Elaine was chanting and her body was painted with swirling patterns which seems to confirm that a ritual was being used. At some point Harry is free and all we really know is Harry vividly remembers seeing Justin burn to death and that he continued to watch Justin's corpse blacken and shrivel in the flames.
That's about it other than other people and not people's opinions of Justin. Ebenezer called Justin a "son of a bitch." Bob told Harry that Justin got what he deserved. Lea told Harry that he wanted to give Justin the benefit of the doubt, but he was wrong to do so; in other words Justin got what he deserved. From this, all we can really be certain of is that Lea didn't tell Harry a direct lie about Justin. There may have been, and probably was much she didn't tell Harry about Justin, because Harry was only drawing upon his own memories of Justin, Lea wasn't sharing any of hers. I suppose we can also trust Bob's opinion because he didn't have any reason to lie to Harry, but Bob doesn't have a strong grasp of morality so his opinion on when it's right to kill someone can be somewhat shaky. We really don't know when and how Ebenezer formed his opinion of Justin.
There is one last tiny bit of information which possibly links Justin to Lea. From time to time young Harry was visited by a beautiful women with red hair when he was at the orphanage, Lea. (I don't remember which book Harry had this memory in.) It's easy to assume Lea was simply fulfilling her bargain with Margaret to look after Harry, but she was probably also there to check if Harry's magic had stated to manifest. She could have detected magic far more easily than any mortal could have. This also could have also been part of her bargain with Margaret, Lea might have agreed to find someone to teach Harry how to use magic, but Lea might also have made a separate agreement with Justin. There is a huge gap in our knowledge here.
I'm hoping Peace Talks will give us more information about Margaret LeFay and by extension Justin DuMorne.
-
Well written.
Lea was Harry's high school councillor I think. I recall that from somewhere.
-
What we know and don't know Justin DuMorne; and what we may assume about him.
Maggie tried to get Ebenezer to join in an unknown (to us) scheme with Duchess Arianna and Lord Raith. Justin DuMorne was also one of her associates. However, we don't know if Justin was associated with Margaret LeFey at the same time she was working with Lord Raith. She could have made different allies at different times and in different circumstances.
Justin removed Harry from an orphanage shortly after Harry's magic ability started to emerge. We can assume something similar for Elaine, but we don't know for certain. There might be important differences in how and why Justin selected each of them, but we have nothing to confirm this possibility.
We can assume Justin wasn't on the run from the White Council when he adopted Harry and Elaine. If he had been on the run it seems unlikely he could live in one place very long with any degree of safety and raise two teenagers at the same time. From this we can also assume that whatever his true relationship was to Harry's mother, from the White Council's perspective it couldn't have looked nefarious, at least as long as they didn't look too closely. Many wizards must have known Margaret before she had broken any of the Laws of Magic, and Justin might have claimed that he hadn't been in contact with her after she went rogue, even if that wasn't true.
HWWB knew Justin DuMorne or knew enough about him to drop his name when the Walker was talking to Harry the first time they met. Harry assumed Justin called HWWB behind to go after Harry after he ran away. That was a logical assumption for Harry to make, but we don't know with certainty if this was the case.
We don't know how the events played out that lead to Justin's death. (Assuming he did in fact die.) The early books are a little vague on the details. We know Elaine hit Harry with a binding that he was eventually able to break. There was also an attempt to force Harry to drink human blood in some type of ritual which we can assume would have enthralled Harry to Justin's will. Elaine was chanting and her body was painted with swirling patterns which seems to confirm that a ritual was being used. At some point Harry is free and all we really know is Harry vividly remembers seeing Justin burn to death and that he continued to watch Justin's corpse blacken and shrivel in the flames.
That's about it other than other people and not people's opinions of Justin. Ebenezer called Justin a "son of a bitch." Bob told Harry that Justin got what he deserved. Lea told Harry that he wanted to give Justin the benefit of the doubt, but he was wrong to do so; in other words Justin got what he deserved. From this, all we can really be certain of is that Lea didn't tell Harry a direct lie about Justin. There may have been, and probably was much she didn't tell Harry about Justin, because Harry was only drawing upon his own memories of Justin, Lea wasn't sharing any of hers. I suppose we can also trust Bob's opinion because he didn't have any reason to lie to Harry, but Bob doesn't have a strong grasp of morality so his opinion on when it's right to kill someone can be somewhat shaky. We really don't know when and how Ebenezer formed his opinion of Justin.
There is one last tiny bit of information which possibly links Justin to Lea. From time to time young Harry was visited by a beautiful women with red hair when he was at the orphanage, Lea. (I don't remember which book Harry had this memory in.) It's easy to assume Lea was simply fulfilling her bargain with Margaret to look after Harry, but she was probably also there to check if Harry's magic had stated to manifest. She could have detected magic far more easily that any mortal could have. This also could have also been part of her bargain with Margaret, Lea might have agreed to find someone to teach Harry how to use magic, but Lea might also have made a separate agreement with Justin. There is a huge gap in our knowledge here.
I'm hoping Peace Talks will give us more information about Margaret LeFay and by extension Justin DuMorne.
First, bravo for the summary. Very succinct and well put. I would also like to see some clarification about the relationship between Justin and Margaret. I think it can be assumed that Justin had prior knowledge about Harry (given the unlikeliness of randomly running into a star born at an orphanage) yet only took him in once his powers manifested so that he could direct Harry's path. If Justin knew of Harry's starborn status he conceivably could have influenced Raith to go after Margaret so that he could swoop in and gain control of a starborn.
-
About Starbon being the only ones able to open the Outer Gates.
There is a law of magic: Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates.
It implies that anyone can.
@Kurtin: Very well put.
-
It could be assumed that Raith, and Maggie's idea of creating a Starborn was somewhat of a secret, yet Justin ended up with the Starborn..
So Elaine was part of Maggie's plan too?
And I still don't accept as gospel that Maggie was trying to create a Starborn.
-
So Elaine was part of Maggie's plan too?
Dunno. It hasn't been confirmed she is one, but it's a good possibility. What are the odds of Justin just randomly finding Starborn's without being involved? I suppose an Outsider, or god or something could have informed him.
And I still don't accept as gospel that Maggie was trying to create a Starborn.
Well I don't think she was trying to with Harry father, but before that with Raith I believe that was confirmed?
-
Dunno. It hasn't been confirmed she is one, but it's a good possibility. What are the odds of Justin just randomly finding Starborn's without being involved? I suppose an Outsider, or god or something could have informed him.
Well I don't think she was trying to with Harry father, but before that with Raith I believe that was confirmed?
Without knowing exactly what makes a Starborn, it's possible that he was able to find them quite easily. Take the children of a wizard parent, born at X time, in Y area, perhaps, and you're good to go. Otherwise you have to argue that Justin is then involved with Elaine's birth as well. Which we've seen no evidence in support of.
And if she wasn't trying with Harry's father, why did she need to be trying with Raith, given that it can then apparently happen without trying. Plus, I've not seen anything from Jim confirming it. Closest thing involved Thomas's birthday (universal irony) and certain readings of Lash's statement that Maggie found the strength to escape Raith "for a reason."
-
About Starbon being the only ones able to open the Outer Gates.
There is a law of magic: Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates.
It implies that anyone can.
Mainly an academic difference, but the text I've seen of the Seventh Law is "Thou shalt not Seek beyond the Outer Gates." To me, that's about summoning Outsiders, not opening the Gates themselves. Not like it would make much of a difference; pretty sure the Council would come down harder on anyone who tried. Still, it applies to research along with summoning. So I guess technically Harry has broken that Law a bunch of times in Cold Days.
-
I'm fairly certain it is established either via woj and/or text that Maggie intended Harry to be Starborn. Lash says Harry was born to wield power over Outsiders.
-
So Elaine was part of Maggie's plan too?
And I still don't accept as gospel that Maggie was trying to create a Starborn.
Way back in Summer Knight when Ebenezar was introducing Harry to Martha Liberty and LtW to ask for their support in the vote, didn't Martha say something to Eb along the lines of "You know what he was meant to be"?
-
Way back in Summer Knight when Ebenezar was introducing Harry to Martha Liberty and LtW to ask for their support in the vote, didn't Martha say something to Eb along the lines of "You know what he was meant to be"?
I took that to mean he was meant to be Justin's enforcer/thug thus could not be trusted.
-
I'm fairly certain it is established either via woj and/or text that Maggie intended Harry to be Starborn. Lash says Harry was born to wield power over Outsiders.
She said that he does, due to the circumstances of his birth. I don't recall anything that she says that was his purpose or intent.
-
This really isn't in response to your reply but it had me run across this.
Q: When will we learn more about Maggie?
A: It will be little bits at a time, like we’re learning now. But eventually we will find out that what we’ve been told so far is only accurate from a certain point of view. It will all have a different meaning once we’ve learned the whole story.
2010 Lee’s Summit signing
Q: Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A: Not really. One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence. Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.
2009 Kansas City Q&A @37:15
Are we ever going to learn more about Maggie?
Yah you will find out more about her as we go. In bits and pieces. The problem with her running around doing secret things is no one knows what she was doing.
2010 Mysterious Galaxy Q&A
Do you have it planned out who Harry's grandmother is? @6:05
Yes... Well she's not alive any more.
Was she significant?
Well, she was a mortal. That was about it.
Editor's note: There's a 2011 WoJ Where Jim says if he remembers right, she died around 1810
After discussing Harry's Grandmother:@8:15
Harry's mom was around for a good long while before she had him. I think she was a hundred and something.
2011 NYC Signing Q&A
Any word on Harry’s mother and whether she’s going to make it back?
No, they did a good job on her. Although they didn’t do a good enough job as evidenced by the fact that her kids are wrecking people’s plans left and right.
If this is right then it seems reasonable that Harry's mother was rather old when she had Harry. And, I'm talking a couple hundred years old. It seems likely to me that Maggie Sr. had plenty of time to have other kids.
I might have to revisit my theory that Marcone has an origin in time travel with Harry and Murphy/Mab as his parents. Maybe Maggie Sr. is his mother, which would make Harry his half brother, who is another one of Maggie Sr. "kids wrecking people's plans left and right."
-
wasn't there a WOJ that there was no more Dresden Siblings? I'll see what I can do to dig it up.
But then again can we really trust any WoJ? :/
-
Any more Dresden siblings at what point and from what perspective. I mean he did already introduce Marcone at some point. So...
I just find it hard to believe that a woman is going to wait until she is 150+ years old until she is going to have her first kid.
-
I think it is very possible that Justin found a potential starborn (Harry) son of an associate and made a potential starborn (Elaine).
-
Any more Dresden siblings at what point and from what perspective. I mean he did already introduce Marcone at some point. So...
I just find it hard to believe that a woman is going to wait until she is 150+ years old until she is going to have her first kid.
I don't. Not for a Woman like Maggie Sr, who probably never intended to have kids at all. (Thomas was an accident, Harry was a WMD)
-
Any more Dresden siblings at what point and from what perspective. I mean he did already introduce Marcone at some point. So...
I just find it hard to believe that a woman is going to wait until she is 150+ years old until she is going to have her first kid.
You think she's going to wait until she's 150+ to get married?
-
Any more Dresden siblings at what point and from what perspective. I mean he did already introduce Marcone at some point. So...
I just find it hard to believe that a woman is going to wait until she is 150+ years old until she is going to have her first kid.
She was probably doing like the Gatekeeper, spending a lot of her life in the "slow lane" areas of the NN to be a lot younger than the chronological time since she was born. Throw wizard aging into it, and it's not that extreme.
-
Way back in Summer Knight when Ebenezar was introducing Harry to Martha Liberty and LtW to ask for their support in the vote, didn't Martha say something to Eb along the lines of "You know what he was meant to be"?
That reminds me there was one thing I left out of my summary about what we know and don't know and Justin. It's something will all know, but I think it's easy to forget; Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice. Those readers who think Justin is still alive see him as the likely culprit who told the Red Court how to disable or defeat Simon's wards. Of course, because Harry had been Justin's apprentice it was suggested by Senior Council member LaFortier that Harry was the guilty party.
However, to get to your post, I don't think we know what Martha Liberty meant by that statement. I don't think she meant that Harry was meant to be Justin's enforcer. The fact that Harry rebelled against Justin would seem to weigh against that interpretation. Also, even in a worse case scenario, if Harry had gone bad at a young age, how is one more Warlock a danger to the White Council? The Council must have been afraid that Harry was something special, but in a very bad way.
One more thing to consider. If the White Council learned that Harry is starborn, we don't know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing from the Council's perspective. Past starborn individuals may have catalysts for great destruction or seen as enemies of the Council, or at least enemies of the established order. I keep thinking about Mother Winter referring to Harry as a weapon, in Cold Days. Maybe the Senior Council saw Harry that way too, only they thought he was a major weapon that could be pointed at them, not just at Outsiders. Now that I think about it, the Senior Council might not even know Harry; or any starborn individual, can wield power over Outsiders. Just because Lash and Margaret LeFey knew this, it doesn't mean it's general knowledge in the magical world.
-
Note that Jim has said that there's a lot that the Senior Council knows but doesn't know it knows. They've got the data, but they haven't yet sat down and gone through it to make conclusions and analyze it yet. Which may include things like Harry being Starborn. Things like knowing his date of birth, and whatever else, but have yet to actually put it together.
-
Any more Dresden siblings at what point and from what perspective. I mean he did already introduce Marcone at some point. So...
I just find it hard to believe that a woman is going to wait until she is 150+ years old until she is going to have her first kid.
Here is the WoJ I was looking for. Again in so much as you can trust WoJ's any more. I think this one is probably a definitive no, but being almost 10 years ago we don't know how the story has changed.
Some 2008 booksigning pulled off of youtube:
Do Harry and Thomas have any other siblings out there?
NO
-
Here is a different question along the same line... May Harry have siblings who are no longer alive?
-
Depending on how Jim interpreted and then thought while responding to the question, there may be some wiggle room. We do know that Thomas does have siblings. It could be that Harry has siblings but not on his mother's side to be symmetric in logic. Harry AND Thomas wouldn't have any full siblings, they aren't even full ones. Harry AND Thomas might have a half sibling out there but it would contradict woj but if so would be consistent with woj that says Jim lies.
-
You'd think that if Malcolm had had any kids, he'd have mentioned it at some point. Like when he comes back to visit Harry after he's dead.
-
Okay, this is something that's been bothering me in the series. Wizards live 300-400 years, right? Why then is Harry showing signs of aging at 40 or so? According to Butters, his cells make near perfect copies, so he should be like 23-25 yo physically.
If this is right then it seems reasonable that Harry's mother was rather old when she had Harry. And, I'm talking a couple hundred years old. It seems likely to me that Maggie Sr. had plenty of time to have other kids.
It doesn't seem that reasonable to me. In camp Kaboom flashback during White Night, Luccio mentions trouble adjusting to the new body, magically as well as physically; saying "Of course, it had been a hundred and forty years since I'd put up with a monthly cycle."
-
Okay, this is something that's been bothering me in the series. Wizards live 300-400 years, right? Why then is Harry showing signs of aging at 40 or so? According to Butters, his cells make near perfect copies, so he should be like 23-25 yo physically.It doesn't seem that reasonable to me. In camp Kaboom flashback during White Night, Luccio mentions trouble adjusting to the new body, magically as well as physically; saying "Of course, it had been a hundred and forty years since I'd put up with a monthly cycle."
Harry lampshades the answer to that himself - it's not so much aging as accumulated injuries that his healing is only keeping up with.
-
However, to get to your post, I don't think we know what Martha Liberty meant by that statement. I don't think she meant that Harry was meant to be Justin's enforcer. The fact that Harry rebelled against Justin would seem to weigh against that interpretation. Also, even in a worse case scenario, if Harry had gone bad at a young age, how is one more Warlock a danger to the White Council? The Council must have been afraid that Harry was something special, but in a very bad way.
Yeah, I looked it up. What Martha said was "What he was meant to be." I don't think the Senior Council has enough of an idea what Justin's actual agenda was for merely being groomed into his thug to merit that much of an ominous overtone.
-
And yet instead they know enough about what Maggie planned?
-
Well if Martha, Eb and LTW know enough about Starborn to recognize Harry's birth date as falling in the right conjunction after Margaret spent the best part of a century and a half camping out in the Nevernever to stay biologically young, that in itself would be a pretty glaring hint. Martha might not have known exactly what ends Maggie meant to use her Starborn offspring for, but just figuring out she was trying for one explains Martha's comment.
-
Okay, this is something that's been bothering me in the series. Wizards live 300-400 years, right? Why then is Harry showing signs of aging at 40 or so? According to Butters, his cells make near perfect copies, so he should be like 23-25 yo physically.It doesn't seem that reasonable to me. In camp Kaboom flashback during White Night, Luccio mentions trouble adjusting to the new body, magically as well as physically; saying "Of course, it had been a hundred and forty years since I'd put up with a monthly cycle."
Jim said that wizards age normally until around 50 years old, and then stop aging. They start to decline around the 400 year mark.
You'd think that if Malcolm had had any kids, he'd have mentioned it at some point. Like when he comes back to visit Harry after he's dead.
Not if he wanted them to have a long life ;). I'm wondering if Harry's mother had any children that have died.. I mean having her first child when she's older than 100? Seems a bit odd.
-
Jim said that wizards age normally until around 50 years old, and then stop aging. They start to decline around the 400 year mark.
Not if he wanted them to have a long life ;). I'm wondering if Harry's mother had any children that have died.. I mean having her first child when she's older than 100? Seems a bit odd.
I believe he also said, in the case of Maggie, there were relativity shenanigans thank to all her NN travel.
-
I believe he also said, in the case of Maggie, there were relativity shenanigans thank to all her NN travel.
Makes me wonder how much time she actually experienced. Ditto Gatekeeper.
-
Makes me wonder how much time she actually experienced. Ditto Gatekeeper.
Same. It would be funny if she developed this huge rep, but half of the mystery was because she accidentally Rip-Van-Winkled it a couple times
-
Same. It would be funny if she developed this huge rep, but half of the mystery was because she accidentally Rip-Van-Winkled it a couple times
The truth is Maggie Sr went on a drunken bender with her bestie Lea one weekend and when she wakes up finds out that someone fucked with the time dilation in that section of the Nevernever because 'This night should last forever'.
Everything that she was involved in afterwards (Lord Raith, Legion of Doom, Starborn Babies) was just a series of increasingly unfortunate accidents and coincidences that spiraled horribly out of control as she tried to keep the drunken, debaucherous acts of that 75-year-long weekend a Secret from her dad.
-
Well, one thing some Amber characters specifically do to give themselves more time is practically akin to go venturing off in the NeverNever. For Amber, it is venturing off into particular worlds that have different rates of time relative to Amber. I think it is the further you travel from Amber, the more different and perhaps different time rates are. So, if Maggie Sr. is adventuring in NeverNever lots and other characters not originating solely from DF are effectively walking about in the NN, there becomes an increasing likelihood that Maggie Sr. path may intersect with one of these other characters since the Dresdenverse is a metaverse containing these other cultural universes.
So, I still wonder about Malcolm Dresden and Mac.
-
The truth is Maggie Sr went on a drunken bender with her bestie Lea one weekend and when she wakes up finds out that someone fucked with the time dilation in that section of the Nevernever because 'This night should last forever'.
Everything that she was involved in afterwards (Lord Raith, Legion of Doom, Starborn Babies) was just a series of increasingly unfortunate accidents and coincidences that spiraled horribly out of control as she tried to keep the drunken, debaucherous acts of that 75-year-long weekend a Secret from her dad.
Good God... ;D
-
The truth is Maggie Sr went on a drunken bender with her bestie Lea one weekend and when she wakes up finds out that someone fucked with the time dilation in that section of the Nevernever because 'This night should last forever'.
Everything that she was involved in afterwards (Lord Raith, Legion of Doom, Starborn Babies) was just a series of increasingly unfortunate accidents and coincidences that spiraled horribly out of control as she tried to keep the drunken, debaucherous acts of that 75-year-long weekend a Secret from her dad.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1d872ba2233b727c42f01d4632a13fe0/tenor.gif?itemid=4531083)