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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Firestarter on September 21, 2019, 09:41:17 PM
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In MM, the other Harry will attempt to break out Demonreach inmates because he will be attempting to save someone [ e.g.: Susan or a lover from the alternatvie reality. ]. I mean: It's Harry. By now we kinda figured out his personality and we can see somewhat see how life is shaping him... and we can all go back to book 1-4 to re-read, if necessary.
If the alternate Harry made other choices, different lovers, different something... he's a different Harry, but he's still has a remainder of "young Harry" in him [ otherwise the parallel angle won't make much sense ]. So however and why ever they are going to meet, I think they will try to cooperate whenever they are not working directly against each other.
But at some point the Alternate Harry will say that he's not the Warden of Demonreach, doesn't have Soulfire and wouldn't want to attempt to do the same in his universe, but Harry already has the access and Alternate Harry _really_, _really_, _really_ needs to get something/someone from there to help him save someone else.
Harry will naturally try to explain what kind of monsters are locked up under Demonreach and why and Alternate Harry will be either more reckless or be more sure of himself and sneak onto the island meeting a very confused Demonreach, who sees his Warden, is talking to him, can sense him every particular manner and he knows it's his Warden, but... doesn't feel him. There is no connection. And the Alternate Harry, being a bit of a bullshitter, will make something up and insist on retrieving something from underneath... and somehow [ I can't imagine how ] "persuades" Demonreach...
As Harry arrives, it's too late by a few seconds - some [ relatively low lvl ] monster has been released. Apocalypse lvl 1 starts! ... Harry, Alternate Harry and allies somehow fight it off/kill it/imprison it again. Alternate Harry either dies or someone from his close allies dies...
Add White Council being wary because interdimensional travel, Mab, because there is another Dresden, who will probably try to help Harry get out from the service... and anyone else who tried to recruit Dresden.
I mean: Not even Merlin jumped between dimensions! Did he...?
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The teaser Jim gave was prime Harry being pulled into the mirror universe, not mirror Harry visiting the prime universe. So if the story ventures out to the island, it's going to be Mirror Demonreach - to whom Mirror Harry is nobody significant. Prime Harry might be recognized, or might be considered a fraud.
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If it follows the ST TOS episode for which it's named, Mirror Harry and Prime Harry will swap places.
Just because Jim teased Prime Harry going to the mirror'verse, it doesn't mean that Mirror Harry isn't coming to Dresedenverse Prime...
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Didn't Jim say that Mirror Harry pulled Prime Harry into his universe to be killed in his place, and that he'd done this before?
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Didn't Jim say that Mirror Harry pulled Prime Harry into his universe to be killed in his place, and that he'd done this before?
If that was WOJ'ed, I didn't see it.
That's quite a huge alternation for an alternate Harry, though! Wow.
I'd presume it'd be from pairing up with Lasciel...?
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That was the WOJ plot tease. Also, mirror Harry "gets more than he bargained for this time".
The WOJ didn't include whether he partnered up with Lasciel. It would make a certain amount of Watsonian sense, but in the Doylist perspective it would kind of be a retread of Hannah Ascher as a very much like Harry character who accepted the coin.
I believe Mirror Harry and Mavra are supposed to be allies, though. So if that stays intact through writing and editing, yeah, he's going to be a real piece of work.
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... I believe Mirror Harry and Mavra are supposed to be allies, though. So if that stays intact through writing and editing, yeah, he's going to be a real piece of work.
Mavra offers to pull Susan out of Bianca's clutches, on a "you'll owe me one" basis. Harry takes the deal. Things spiral out of control from there.
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If it follows the ST TOS episode for which it's named, Mirror Harry and Prime Harry will swap places.
Just because Jim teased Prime Harry going to the mirror'verse, it doesn't mean that Mirror Harry isn't coming to Dresedenverse Prime...
Oh yeah... Imagine all them scenes with Harry Prime being attacked by Alternate Harry's hot gf or similar...
That was the WOJ plot tease. Also, mirror Harry "gets more than he bargained for this time".
The WOJ didn't include whether he partnered up with Lasciel. It would make a certain amount of Watsonian sense, but in the Doylist perspective it would kind of be a retread of Hannah Ascher as a very much like Harry character who accepted the coin.
I believe Mirror Harry and Mavra are supposed to be allies, though. So if that stays intact through writing and editing, yeah, he's going to be a real piece of work.
Harry always gets more than he bargained for ^_^. Although I can see Harry trying to figure out how to destroy Mavra as a part of the deed.
I just can't wait...
Although it probably means that Alternate Harry will harbor a grudge against Harry Prime after this book. >.>
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You know, it might actually be interesting if Mirror, Mirror was written from both of Harrys' perspectives. One in the Prime Universe, one in the Mirrorverse. I have absolutely no clue how that Jim would do it, but multiple first person POVs has been done before in one book, shifting between chapters (and it's my meta WAG that that's how the BAT will be written). That could be pretty cool, and might be a healthy change of pace for Jim.
I doubt it'll happen, but I think it would be pretty dope to see inside the head of "Evil" Harry (who I don't think will be super evil, just kind of a "I do what MUST BE DONE" type of character).
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I am more interested in how others will have changed. People like Marcone and Molly. Without Harry being a positive role model if he goes evil, then Molly's infatuation will not turn to more than that. She could end up under the care of Morgan or Luccio for training.
While Marcone could be more heavily involved with the Knights during the events of DM. If it was his life that Shiro saved instead of Harry's. We saw what the death and injury of an innocent child did to Marcone, now that one man, a stranger who had no reason to help him, gives his life to save Marcone's from death. It could be enough to make him walk away from crime altogether and take up Shiro's Sword.
Mostly I want the latter because I have the scene of a confused Good!Harry running soon after arriving and people trying to kill him, getting to a street when a car stops. Inside is Marcone dressed in simple clothes. He takes one look at Harry and says, "Come with me if you want to live."
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@isoycrazy: Oh for sure. I also like the idea that Prime!Harry also gets to see how people look without his positive influence in their life. I'm still not sure if even Mirror!Marcone will get a sort of redemption, but you never know.
I'm still not wild about the idea of Mirror!Harry running around to kill alternate Harry's, it seems a bit redundant, I think anyone would just stop falling for it. Unless, he's doing it b/c he thinks all Harry's are evil or something?
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Agreed. I often compare Ghost Story to It's a Wonderful Life, but that comparison might end up being way more appropriate for Mirror, Mirror. Harry saw how his death (and all of his choices from Storm Front ---> Changes) impacted everyone around him. Getting a look at how a different set of choices might have impacted everything could serve one of a handful of outcomes. Either A) it reaffirms Harry's confidence in the decisions he's made, and might go a long way in reducing the burden of guilt he still carries with him (which is slowly fading away, as seen in Skin Game—though he still has moments of doubts, like during his conversation at Michael's kitchen table), or B) it makes Prime Harry's choices seem a lot worse in comparison, either because Mirror Harry's world is overall better (for instance, the White Council has soundly beaten the Red Court, Marcone has turned his criminal empire into a force for Good, all three Knights are still alive and holding back the Denarians, but Mirror Harry has paid a tremendous personal cost for it (Susan died in Grave Peril, Mirror Harry is basically a terrorist on the run from Winter and the WC, Molly was never saved in Proven Guilty, etc.)
Personally, I think it'd be closer to A. I think Harry is very much the kind of person who would happily sacrifice his own happiness, but would view a world where either the people in his life are unhappy or flat out no longer (or never have) exist (Maggie, Molly, maybe others) as entirely unacceptable.
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Ooooh, I like those options. I wonder if we'll get a combo of them somehow so that basically, Harry will be more mindful/long reaching with his choices but also won't second guess or blame himself all the time, b/c sometimes you just have no idea how something will work out.
But yeah, agreed about Harry's loved ones. Maybe he learns something from Mirror!Harry? I hope their conflict with each other is more than Mirror!Harry being some type of baddie. I'd like to see a different flavor of anti-hero myself, like its just applied in a different direction.
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If it follows the theme of It's a Wonderful Life then something will happen in Harry prime's world that will cause him to doubt the choices he has made. If Peace Talks becomes a bloodbath that could be the inciting event for that storyline. If on the other hand it uses Star Trek for the inspiration it could be more a story where the Council decided to become more involved in mortal affairs and became an authoritarian government. His mother never died and so on and so on.
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Jim stated that the Mirrorverse's point of divergence is a choice Harry made in Grave Peril. So everything up until Grave Peril happens the same way, it's only from then on that things are different. So Harry's mom should still be dead, but the Red Court war might've been delayed, the Summer Lady might have not gone schizo, the Denarians may have gotten the Shroud, the Darkhallow might not have even started (or was successful), etc.
Personally, I think the War was delayed until about Dead Beat or Proven Guilty, then the Red Court attacked when they were ready. I think the White Council was either taken out or damaged so badly that they're a shadow of what they used to be. Remember that attack in Dead Beat? The one that took out so many Wardens? Imagine if the RC had been doing that since Summer Knight, and opened with assaults like that. If the WC wasn't expecting it... well, Peabody very well might've ensured that they weren't.
I was never a Trekker, so haven't seen that particular episode (though we've all seen it parodied time and time again), but if there's an Authoritarian regime in place, I dunno if it could be the White Council. I'd think it'd be more like a Vampire Consortium (White and Red Courts working hand in hand; White Court manipulates the authority figures, Red Court works as the muscle). Meanwhile, Harry's one of a handful of Capable People standing up for Humanity. In his position, he has to make "tough" decisions. I can picture Harry compromising at each step, one at a time, slowly turning from the one we know now into the one Nicodemus wanted him to be. More... Knight Templar—like a more twisted Morgan—than Mustache-Twirling Villain. The kind of guy Odin praises Marcone for being, almost, except based on survival rather than organized territorialism.
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I doubt it'll happen, but I think it would be pretty dope to see inside the head of "Evil" Harry (who I don't think will be super evil, just kind of a "I do what MUST BE DONE" type of character).
Buddying up with Mavra and serial-killing your own alternate selves just to leave bodies to fake your own death sounds a few steps beyond dark grey.
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@Kindler: Oh this. That idea of Vampire Consortium is pretty cool. Yeah, I thought that it is a good extrapolation. I can also see him team up with Marcone by going down that line. Though that is pretty far from what Snark Knight's pointed out. I know Harry could shift from dark grey to ax crazy but, I dunno, the latter just doesn't appeal to me that much.
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I know Harry could shift from dark grey to ax crazy but, I dunno, the latter just doesn't appeal to me that much.
Prime Harry isn't even particularly dark grey, compared to similar series like Alex Verus.
I expect Mirror Harry to be more dark grey than ax crazy - doing objectively terrible things, but mostly because his options have collapsed to either do terrible things or die.
Mirror Marcone, by the way, was mentioned in WOJ as also interestingly different. If he had to take on more of the heavy lifting of stopping the Denarians in DM because Mirror Harry wasn't on that case, I wonder if that might have been the foundation of a redemption arc.
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I was looking for the WoJ Snark Knight was referencing. Figured I'd share it, everything else pertinent to this thread I found, and some stuff about Marcone that could be pertinent to who Marcone will be in Mirror, Mirror.
John Marcone is not his real name. Is that going to be significant?
Sure is if somebody tries to cast a spell at him using the name John Marcone! That would be a big deal. We’ll have to see how that works out. Actually the character that’s really interesting is the Mirror Mirror universe Marcone, and we’ll get to him in a few books.
The thing about Marcone is, him doing his job as an Outfit boss, he would be considered kind of a very ideal leader, for much of world history, at least much of Western history. An Outfit boss and a medieval baron, there’s a very close correlation between those two guys’ jobs.
Marcone is a real fun character to write, because the problem with Marcone is that he’s too intelligent. Once you stop to think about things for a while, and really stop to analyze things, I think most people realize that the smart thing to do, at least in the long term, in almost every situation is also the morally right thing to do. Because in the long term, it benefits you more to do the morally right thing than to do the selfish thing. Almost every time. And it’s folks that are too short-sighted to understand that who you see running around doing a lot of the selfish stuff. And Marcone, unfortunately, he’s smart enough to realize, “The smartest thing for me to do is be an upstanding citizen. (Jim mimes looking around and sighing.) Here’s my criminal empire. I guess it’s a little late for that. And somebody has to run the crime. So I guess that’s me.”
So Marcone is an interesting character in my head, but he’s born in the wrong time. If he’d been born five hundred years earlier, he’d be an ideal leadership-type. They’d have pegged him for officer school, five hundred years before.
Actually, one of the books that’s going to be upcoming is — I’m just going to go for total originality and call it Mirror Mirror and stick Harry in a parallel universe where he made one choice differently when he was much younger and show the fallout from that choice in that universe as it’s going. That’s going to be extremely fun story.
I’m writing an alternate universe story and I’m not even going to bother… Of course I’m stealing it from Star Trek. There’s going to be goatees and eye patches and everything. Just like in the regular universe only (sounds like sluttier), it’s a Mirror Mirror story. But that’s going to be a fun because that’s going to be… How will the world be different if Harry had made one choice differently.
Audience: Goateed like Harry’s subconscious?
Jim: It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life. *unintelligible comment from audience* Yah this guy will have a hat.
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.
Q: Jim’s favorite recurring villain?
A: Marcone, when he’s being a villain
John Marcone has been on the fence for most of the series. Sometimes he does the right thing, sometimes the wrong. Will there be a book where he goes full good guy or bad guy?
I think it’s safe to say that Harry will never get a clear read on Marcone. Sharks aren’t good or evil. They’re /sharks/.
I say this, of course, only because I miss the recently departed Shark Week.
Per Priscellie Jim told her at ComicCon:
Hendricks’ first name is Nathan
@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine. :)
[Marcone's name] won’t factor in later because nobody’s getting it. Marcone is, as far as this series is concernd he is the most magic-savvy mortal that is running around these days and he is covering his bases and is very good at it. Marcone is the guy who has read the Evil Overlord List and would roll his eyes at why anybody would do such a thing.
@Kindler: It's on Netflix if you're interested in watching that episode.
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Assuming that you know the plot of Mirror, Mirror. The question you need to ask yourself is who has the Spock role? Marcone would fit, at least after a fashion.
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One choice that most impacted the series...
Not getting Susan away from Bianca in time. That's basically it. All Harry ever had to do is not show Susan the invitation and not leave them out where she could get to them.
War averted, let's go back to the simmering cold war until Red Court is ready to try and wipe White council off the Earth
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One choice that most impacted the series...
Not getting Susan away from Bianca in time. That's basically it. All Harry ever had to do is not show Susan the invitation and not leave them out where she could get to them.
War averted, let's go back to the simmering cold war until Red Court is ready to try and wipe White council off the Earth
My personal WAG is that the specific decision is to not misuse Amoracchius during the graveyard scene with Lea. She never gets it, and doesn't trade it to Bianca for the Athame. Couple of options can happen from then on. Either:
1. Harry gets taken by Lea for dog duty. He's not around, and Susan is found out and turned during the party. Thomas and Justine may or may not be killed. The Nightmare isn't stopped, or is finally hunted down by Michael, instead. The war doesn't get kicked off too early, and the Reds gear up for a decapitating strike, which happens years later. Lea may or may not still get the Athame; she may trade something else for it (if she even goes to the party), or simply can't accept it without an equal trade (considering that it took Amoracchius to make it a square deal, I think odds are good she simply doesn't have anything big enough to trade for it). She's never Infected (at least not then), nor is Maeve. Aurora is still Infected, though.
Harry's either turned back into a human by Lea after the danger has passed, or Harry figures out a new deal to get back out of it (and, of course, somehow communicates his terms to Lea). I do believe that Lea didn't intend to keep him as a hound permanently, anyway, and take her at her word when she said it would have been for his own good. So I assume that Harry would turn back sometime before Summer Knight. Except this time, the news about Susan isn't that she's alive and half-turned, it's that she's dead or fully turned. This means a couple of things:
A. Susan and Harry never conceive Maggie.
B. Harry's depression is potentially much worse around Summer Knight.
C. Susan cannot be sacrificed at Chicken Pizza to kill the Red Court, so they remain a significant player regardless of anything else that happens.
Similarly, there's no Red Court side plot activity from Death Masks onward, not until around Death Masks. At that point, the Reds attack, and it's devastating. The Darkhallow may or may not have been pulled off (I lean toward not). But the attack on the Wardens happens, except this time they're totally unprepared for it. Rather than losing half or three-quarters of the Wardens, the Reds manage to take down just about all of them. At this point, Peabody's manipulations are employed to even greater effect, and he's able to leak the location of the Senior Council and organize an effective assault. SC members are killed, maybe all of them.
It's also worth noting that, without the Red Court assault on Archangel, Eb isn't on the Senior Council at this point, because Simon's still there. So Ebenezer winds up on the Senior Council then, along with wizards like Klaus the Toymaker, simply because they're the most senior wizards left.
The war goes really badly.
2. He manages to weasel out of the deal some other way. Michael has Amoracchius handy during Bianca's ball. It changes the outcome of events so thoroughly that Dresden, Susan, Thomas, and Justine all make it out alive! Everything seems jim freaking dandy.
Except the Nightmare remains active, and Bianca's gone full cuckoo bird. She manages to get Susan anyway, through the Nightmare. Rather than turn her, Susan is simply killed, days or even weeks or months later. Harry is unable to pin the murder on Bianca, but attempts to resolve things through the Accords anyway. It fails. Harry becomes totally disenchanted (heh) with the supernatural world as a result, and takes a darker turn. He murders Bianca for revenge. He starts picking off Reds any chance he gets.
The White Council catches wind of it, and starts trying to nail him for breaking the Accords. Harry starts rules lawyering them. He manages (cuz, again, he's much less scrupulous than current Harry) to start making real money, and just starts paying weregilds for each dead vampire (or something similar).
But it becomes an open secret that Harry is fighting a guerrilla war against the Reds. So he becomes a major target, just like normal, except now the White Council hangs him out to dry much more thoroughly than they've tried to in the past. Morgan in particular goes out of his way to make Harry's life as hard as possible. He's not branded a warlock because he's technically not breaking the Laws of Magic, but he's instigating conflicts with the Reds.
Harry hates the Red Court so much that he starts taking advice from Mavra, who never got into a confrontation with him at Bianca's party since Michael was Armed. Mavra's playing her own power game, trying to screw with the Reds (and possibly spread Infection amongst them). In exchange for her help, Harry gets her the Word of Kemmler much earlier, and they manage to avoid the Darkhallow conflict completely. So the Heirs of Kemmler are still running around. In fact, Marcone might have found out about the Word from Bony Tony, and recognized the danger it presented. So the conflict around the Word may have been between Marcone and Harry/Mavra.
Meanwhile, the Reds plan their attack on the White Council, and it's as devastating as I hypothesize above. Part of Harry's problems are solved, because what's left of the White Council doesn't have time to worry about him. Plus, you know, he's been killing Reds for a while anyway, so they kinda look the other way while he continues his thing. But Harry's made so many enemies by this point that it doesn't ultimately make a difference, and he's hunted by various power players (mostly working for Nemesis). That leads Harry to where he is at the start of Mirror, Mirror.
Various changes to the timeline I predict:
1. Molly is either dead, or is not the Winter Lady. I assume she was killed by the White Council.
2. Murphy and Harry never learned to really trust one another. The Summer Knight Wal-Mart conversation never happened. In fact, Harry might well be a wanted criminal.
3. Marcone was left to defend his territory from the Reds. What he saw during the ongoing conflict changed him. He probably didn't transition to legitimate businesses, but I can totally picture him mobilizing his resources to fight monsters, since nobody else is doing it. We kinda see that in Even Hand and the Chicago Alliance meeting anyway, except Mirror Marcone isn't playing power games, he's operating a true, genuine, and honest protection racket.
4. Thomas was killed, and Mirror Harry may never have found out about their relationship. He either dies during Grave Peril, or Blood Rites (BR death is a possibility because Murphy may not have been helping Harry, if the events of that book even happened in that universe). Justine's fate probably matches Thomas's—but either way, I don't see them having a baby.
5. Morgan is still alive, almost without a doubt. He's running his own guerrilla war against the Reds with whatever resources he's got, and he's better at it than Harry. Still hates Harry, though.
6. Eb is probably alive. He might be leading what's left of the White Council if the Merlin bit the dust. Regardless (and this may or may not matter), Peabody didn't have eight years to dose him with mind controlling ink. So Eb's mind may have never been screwed with.
7. Michael might have been killed during Death Masks.
8. Butters is dead if the fight for the Word happens.
9. The Alphas are still around, but a bit different, depending on what Harry does with them. It's possible they're more aggressive in their vigilante activity, and it's also possible they're not allied with Harry at all.
10. Harry never gets Mouse. :( In fact, there might be more evil Mouses (Mice?) running around, like in Zoo Day. Mouse might be one of them.
11. Maeve may or may not be Infected, it's up in the air. Depends on what happened with Lea, and whether or not she gets Infected. Regardless, she's still alive, I think. If she's dead, then Sarissa is the Winter Lady.
12. Lots of others I can speculate about, but you get the idea.
So that's a pretty big WAG. In fact, it's like thirty separate big WAGs rolled into one. But I think that the crux of the Mirrorverse's differences boils down to: "This is what the world would be like if Harry's primary motivation for over a decade was fueled entirely by hatred and revenge instead of sadness and regret." Because, personally, I can see a revenge-focused Dresden losing his desire to defend those who can't defend themselves. We see bits of it come out a few times, like the ghoul attack at Camp Kaboom, or burning Bianca's mansion in Grave Peril. If he was in that state too much, well... things could be a lot different.
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Jim has stated that the decision takes place towards/at the end of Grave Peril, so I imagine the graveyard scene is much too early.
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@Bad Alias: I think Butcher did it that way so that it wouldn't get too crazy with the diverging points, doubly so since this book sets up so much.
@Kindler: I do like this one a lot. There's a lot that can still happen even if the diverging point is later, especially the stuff with Susan and Harry.
I still go by my WAG where Harry's three important words are 'Take me instead'.
A: Yup Maggie doesn't exist in MirrorVerse.
B: Oh yeah, though I could still see his friends, especially Michael helping him through it.
C: Agreed. If they want to defeat the Red Court, it'll be through another way.
Yeah, I think Prime!Harry is going to see just how his actions against the Red Court was actually good thing no matter what anyone says. I'm not sure if Death Masks even happens really, since they aren't at war but still gathering their power/forces/etc. I can't remember who on here said it, but they posited that the Reds and Whites could team up, which I think is brilliant. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but hey it would work for the time being. I also don't think the majority of Dead Beat wouldn't happen, but I could be totally wrong on that score.
Whenever the Reds do attack, they'd wreck the White Council so that only a few survive. I'd say Eb, Morgan, Luccio, The Merlin, and hopefully Carlos. B/c if Carlos isn't alive then what's the point? Since this would be the case, they really don't have the man power to stop Mirror!Harry from doing anything really.
I love the idea of Harry in a guerilla warfare against the Reds, it makes so much sense to me. I'd still like the idea that he's the half-turned one and not Susan, who's probably dead or as good as. The surviving White Council can't disagree with Harry too much and maybe Harry and Morgan team up on occasion despite hating each other.
1. Def not Winter Lady, but I like to think she's alive, just not Harry's biggest fan. Maybe even Morgan's apprentice?
2. Oh yeah and it's mutual no trusting. I like the idea that Mirror!Murphy is a scary vigilante b/c she doesn't feel safe anymore and wants to kill monsters that the law can't touch.
3. Agreed. Though I do like the idea of Mirror!Marcone and Mirror!Harry working together but also rival/friends. Something that would make Prime!Harry just be flabbergasted at.
4. Hm. I don't want either Justine or Thomas to die. The former is mostly b/c it feels too much like fridge'ing for my tastes. Though logically, she probably would be gone. I'd say Thomas could survive but it'd be by the skin of his teeth. I'm still pulling for a White King!Thomas, if only so he can protect his little sister Inari from their father, though she'd become full vamp here. Thomas would be in competition with Lara here. I don't think he'd be as willing to help people due to not having a bond with Harry. Mirror!Harry wouldn't know they're brothers and would hate him.
5.Yes. Just more Morgan please.
6. Yeah, I could see Eb being the leader and he'd be the reason why the Council is even still around. I'd love the irony of Peabody being dead though.
7. I'm not sure when Michael would die, but yeah at some point he would die. I think he'd act like an anchor for Mirror!Harry and that is death is what really breaks Harry to do his more bad things. It's also why Molly isn't Harry's fan and is apprenticed to someone else.
8. If Butters is alive it's b/c Murphy saved him. I'd like to see a more Mad Scientist type of Butters.
9. Yeah, they'd be much more aggressive. Maybe they're more of Murphy's friends then Harry's. Which is probably true in general.
10. Yeah, maybe the whole litter? He might not even have Mister anymore depending on how bad things are. Though he'd do his damnedest to hold onto to Bob.
11. I think she'd still be infected but alive. Lea is infected and still trying to get at Harry, though she might have less success with it, since having Mirror!Harry also be the Winter Knight would be kinda boring.
12. Oh true that.
Oh yeah, for sure. Harry on a vengeance kick is pretty no holds barred. I don't think he'd get off it anytime soon too. Though this scenario also has a much bigger stakes in terms of survival, so he'd also be pretty ruthless too. It'd explain his team up with Mavra at least.
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Bony Tony would probably still be trying to sell the Word of Kemmler, so !Harry would likely be involved with the Heirs of Kemmler, even if it was just because he was after power. That would probably still lead to !Harry meeting Necro-Bob. !Harry four years after starting down the wrong path might keep Necro-Bob around. So I think !Harry will be a necromancer. I also think that !Harry will be a necromancer because Jim seems really excited by the idea when talking about if Harry didn't make his deal with Mab.
I can also see !Harry having taken Lasciel's coin and either working much more with the shadow or just taking the coin up. He could have taken up the coin and lost it to Liverspots and then become a necromancer.
I think Michael is going to be dead because Harry has saved his life twice by getting involved in Michael's business.
I think Molly wouldn't have idolized !Harry if he wasn't around, so she her trajectory would be totally different. I just don't know how.
If !Harry was consumed by vengeance, he may have taken Mab up on her offer of becoming Winter Knight. (If Mab even collects !Harry's debt from Lea).
!Harry may have still saved Thomas, or !Harry's choice may have taken place after Thomas got out. They may still have a relationship. Instead of Harry being a good influence on Thomas, they might be a bad influence on each other with !Harry being the much darker of the two.
One way or another, I don't think Lara would be in charge of the White Court. Either !Harry wouldn't have interfered because Thomas is dead, or !Harry wouldn't pass up the opportunity to have Thomas in charge of the White Court, so he kills Lara pretty soon thereafter. So I don't think White Night would have happened at all. I also doubt any of the events after Blood Rites would play out at all because all of their setups wouldn't have happened.
Small Favor doesn't happen because Marcone isn't in the accords. Turn Coat doesn't happen because Luccio is either dead or never showed up in Dead Beat to be switched into a younger body that could be mind controlled. Even if that all happens anyway, Morgan is unlikely to go to !Harry for help, and !Harry is even less likely to help him out instead of just murdering him or selling him. Changes doesn't happen because there is no Maggie. Harry's not dead, so Ghost Story doesn't happen. Cold Days doesn't happen because !Harry's not the Warden because he never went to Demonreach in Small Favor and then claimed the island in Turn Coat. Skin Game may or may not have happened.
A Winter Knight Denarian necromancer !Harry is a possibility.
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If you consider that the last choice he makes in Grave Peril is to not leave Susan to the Vampires, then you have the basis of a redemption story. Not only guilt for not keeping Susan from being bitten, but giving her up to the Reds as well.
No war with the Reds. Mab chooses not to use Harry as her emissary in Summer Knight. Aurora has her war. Lea kills a weakened Mab and becomes Winter Queen. Cowl does the Dark Hallow and the world burns, ect, ect, ect.
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Bony Tony would probably still be trying to sell the Word of Kemmler, so !Harry would likely be involved with the Heirs of Kemmler, even if it was just because he was after power. That would probably still lead to !Harry meeting Necro-Bob. !Harry four years after starting down the wrong path might keep Necro-Bob around.
!Harry could meet Evil Bob almost immediately after the wrong choice that diverges his timeline. Unless the divergent choice comes after already beating the Nightmare, he's going to need an alternative way to destroy a big angry ghost and steal back his power.
If he just asks Bob for whatever he has on dealing with that sort of problem, it leads straight to the "I don't want to remember that" / "Do it anyway" conversation that ended up letting Evil Bob out of his partition in DB in the main timeline. It would just happen years early, and with Harry desperate enough to accept the Kemmlerite easy button that Evil Bob could offer him.
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Hm, yeah Bony Tony probably would still do what he does.
I like the idea of a necromancer Harry, with any version of Bob by his side. I also didn't think of Lara not surviving, but now that its been brought up, yeah, her living doesn't seem to make much sense.
Though, I do think that Thomas and Harry might be more enemies but yeah Harry influencing Thomas in a negative way is still true.
I'm wondering how Harry and Bob's relationship would change, since Bob really doesn't like that evil part of himself.
I think for Summer Knight, that Elaine will be the one to really carry the day. For whatever reason, Lea and Mab might have a tougher time trying to get a hold of Harry.
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From WoJ, I think (quoted above):
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.
I think this decision is where Harry lets Susan leave to find her own path.
I bet he could have persuaded her to stay; he decided not to even try.
So, no connection (or much-delayed) with the Fellowship; Susan's self-control may be shakier for the lack.
Probably no Maggie; maybe another/different child... Young Ebenezer? Or even children?
Dresden + Half-Vamp-Susan is a damned potent combo; if she stayed, maybe they turned into a major working team. This cuts Murphy's involvement as Harry-backup WAY down.
Harry+Susan also reverses the Harry+Karrin field dynamic: Half-Vamp takes point, wizard in the back (vs. Harry on point with shield, gun-Murph to the rear) ... subtly turning Harry into a guy who hides behind someone he cares for.
Or (#2 choice) -- he lets Bianca back him down from the big throwdown at the end.
Maybe he bargains to extract Susan, but becomes beholden to Bianca.
Maybe he concludes that a half-Vamp cannot be turned back, and therefore Susan is lost anyway.
Maybe he accepts the deal, planning to come back and steal Susan (but it's too late).
#3... #4 ... ? Any other "big decision(s) at the end of Grave Peril?"
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!Harry could meet Evil Bob almost immediately after the wrong choice that diverges his timeline. Unless the divergent choice comes after already beating the Nightmare, he's going to need an alternative way to destroy a big angry ghost and steal back his power.
If he just asks Bob for whatever he has on dealing with that sort of problem, it leads straight to the "I don't want to remember that" / "Do it anyway" conversation that ended up letting Evil Bob out of his partition in DB in the main timeline. It would just happen years early, and with Harry desperate enough to accept the Kemmlerite easy button that Evil Bob could offer him.
Good point.
I also didn't think of Lara not surviving, but now that its been brought up, yeah, her living doesn't seem to make much sense.
Either Thomas and Harry are allies and Thomas survives, or Thomas dies and Lara doesn't take over the White Court. She could at some later point when it becomes clear that Papa Raith isn't all there, but in that situation, House Raith is going to be a lot less likely to come through the transition unscathed. My point isn't that Lara would die; it's that she would not be in charge of the White Court and play out her scheme in White Night because the timing would be off, and she wouldn't be trying to manipulate good guy Harry who she got to know in Blood Rite or she Harry would have murdered her.
I think this decision is where Harry lets Susan leave to find her own path.
I bet he could have persuaded her to stay; he decided not to even try.
I doubt that Susan staying and surviving is going to make Harry evil. Now if Susan stayed and Harry had to kill her ...
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Oh, ok, so Lara wouldn't necessarily die. Though I do wonder how well she'd survive in the earlier books due to how she seems weaker there. Not so say that she needs Harry at any point, but he was a pretty big factor in her rise to power. I do think that Thomas will still be alive though.
Yeah, what to do with Susan since her being dead really would be a good way to send him spiraling down but I feel that it would be crueler if she lived and Harry had to see her become monstrous and no longer a person he loved.
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... I doubt that Susan staying and surviving is going to make Harry evil. Now if Susan stayed and Harry had to kill her ...
Well, a whole bunch would obviously happen to Mirror!Harry, and it'd be a DIFFERENT whole bunch of stuff; and yes, having to kill Susan might blow his gasket...
Or kill to protect her... increasingly dubious killings to protect an uncontrolled half-vamp...? But she's the mother of his child(ren) so what's he gonna do?
But Susan alive and living in Chicago would mess worse with Harry's mind, so I think that's what Jim would do.
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@g33k: Oooh yeah it would so mess with Harry. Maybe its b/c she gets away but doesn't know how to help Harry, so they could have gone their separate ways?
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Oh, ok, so Lara wouldn't necessarily die. Though I do wonder how well she'd survive in the earlier books due to how she seems weaker there. Not so say that she needs Harry at any point, but he was a pretty big factor in her rise to power. I do think that Thomas will still be alive though.
Most people seem to think the choice is going to be related to Susan and / or Bianca. But Harry made another very consequential choice that flies mostly under the radar. When Thomas brought Amoracchius back, Michael's initial inclination was to kill him out of hand before even opening the package. Being a vampire and apparently playing both sides at the ball was reason enough. The choice to spare him and trust him was Harry's.
If he hadn't, think how some of the real villains - say, Nicodemus - might have been able to mess with !Harry's head just by revealing that the KotC had murdered the unknown brother who was genuinely trying to help Harry, and doomed Susan in the process. That his 'friend' was no better than that judgmental ass Morgan, and Harry sat by and nodded. That would wreck him.
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That's really good. It raises a lot of questions.
What would have happened immediately after? The Nightmare possesses Lydia. It took Thomas's help to "defeat" him. Would they have been killed? Would they have been forced to kill Lydia to survive? Would Harry have figured out that the Nightmare was Kravos? Would they have attempted the rescue of Susan? Thomas was the one with all the intel. If they still went through the Nevernever, would Harry have been able to escape Lea? I don't really recall if Thomas was crucial there. What would have happened if Harry attempted a rescue? When would he? What if he didn't try the Nevernever and ended up killing the human guards with magic, violating the 1st Law?
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I thought that could be a diverging point too, but poor Thomas. Yeah, I imagine Nicodemus could get a lot of mileage of that. I think Thomas actually was a bit crucial to the finale. If Thomas dies, there's a domino effect of all the times that Harry needed him.
That's a good point about the first law. He'd be pretty against killing humans, magic or otherwise. Thomas getting killed is a pretty big diverging point, so it'd be cool to see.
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Most people seem to think the choice is going to be related to Susan and / or Bianca...
The specific WoJ (and Jim is known to deceive his fans, so it must always be taken with a grain of salt) is that it's "the big decision at the end of Grave Peril".
I don't think the earlier choice-points qualify. Obviously, "the end of" is only approximate, and relative; but I'm guessing it's something from the Nevernever portion (en route to Bianca's), on through Harry entering Bianca's to be captured, the imprisonment scene, Harry breaking out, summoning the dead to kill Bianca, his post-adventure recovery, and then tracking down Susan.
I think the "big choice" is somewhere in there.
The thing where he takes Destroying Angel? Yeah, maybe he doesn't do a near-suicide. The thing where he DOES suicide (temporarily, he hopes) so he can get his ghost to help? Yeah, maybe he doesn't kill himself. Etc etc etc ...
Earlier on in the book... probably isn't "at the end of" the book.
Your Book May Vary.
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Yeah true. I still think the biggest change would be if Harry was the one who became a half rampire.
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My pick.
And I am going to take away someone dear to you. After that, all will be equal.” She gave Ortega a very small smile and then glanced at me and asked, “Well? What say you? If you prefer to remain with her, I’m sure a place could be made for you here. After suitable assurances of your loyalty, of course.”
I remained silent for a moment, stunned.
“Well, wizard?” she snapped, harsher. “How do you answer? Accept my bargain. My compromise. Or it is war. And you will become its first casualty.”
I looked at Susan. She stared blankly, her mouth partially open, caught in a trance of some kind. I could probably snap her out of it, provided a bunch of vampires didn’t tear me limb from limb while I tried. I looked up at Bianca. At Ortega. At the hissing vampire cronies. They were drooling on the polished floor.
I hurt all over, and I felt so very damned tired.
“I love her,” I said. I didn’t say it very loud.
“What?” Bianca stared at me. “What did you say?”
“I said, I love her.”
“She is already half mine.”
“So? I still love her.”
“She isn’t even fully human any longer, Dresden. It won’t be long before she is as a sister to me.”
“Maybe. Maybe not,” I said. “Get your hands off my girlfriend.”
Bianca’s eyes widened. “You are mad,” she said. “You would flirt with chaos, destruction—with war. For the sake of this one wounded soul?”
IMO this sets the tone going forward as to who Harry is. His willingness to "die doing the right thing."
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That's a good diverging point. It's probably this one, out of all the other choices, but I think Harry offers himself up to Bianca in exchange for everybody else.
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Half-Ramp Harry... now that'd be something terrifying indeed.
So the WAG would be Bianca half-turns Harry, and ... I dunno, maybe Thomas/Michael rescue him before he fully-turns?
So Mirror!Harry gets some o' that St. Giles training (that uber-practical "hard choices must be made" St.Giles training)? From a theorycrafting perspective, being emotionally out-of-control is bad for both wizards and half-Ramps; more than once, Harry has "expended" his emotion on magic. Could he do the same and get Ramp-urges under control? Go from all-tattoos to none, via one emotion-fueled spell?
Maybe learning-to-Ramp alongside Susan?
I still think a living Susan would be all kinds of fuck-with-his-mind & torment for Harry-Prime, so I expect Jim will do that thing (and several other f-w-h-m torments, of course).
I like this theory! This moment -- the Bianca showdown -- is actually my #2 pick for Harry's choice/decision point, though I can point to a bunch more maybe-this/maybe-that choices.
I still like that latter on-the-beach-with-Susan moment even better, because it's all about love (and loss), with no violence or combat clouding the issue; also, it's the very-very end of the book. As we increasingly see as the series develops, "Love" is a critical element of the Dresdenverse, possibly THE critical element (possibly alongside Free Will).
So, a choice made strictly and purely around the issue of "Love" has enough metaphysical weight to create a whole new parallel...
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Exactly! And a definite game changer. Yeah, I think Michael and Thomas do get to brute force heir way in for a rescue. So Mirror!Harry is half-ramp.
Yeah, but I feel like it'd be a retread, narrative-wise, if both Susan and Harry were vampires together and enhancing their negative natures. So either Harry rejects a fully turned Susan, tries to save her by finding a cure(just in a more mad scientist way if he gets Butters' help), or he ends up killing her to save Justine.
My WMG is that Harry may or may not get to hang out with the Fellowship. Michael and the Church helps Harry out with this and that's what keeps both the fey and the vamps at bay.
I agree that having a Susan living and happy would wreck Harry in all kinds of ways, but I'm not sure how Jim can swing that if it's a diverging point so late in the book. So I just transfer that idea to Molly instead.
That beach scene is wonderful. I dunno, maybe Harry does manage to cure Susan and that's how she gets to live.
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" All I had to do was let Michael die, laim the protection of hospitality for Susan, and walk out."
This is the decision. He chooses to let Michael attempt to reclaim the sword on his own
He gets himself and Susan out.
What happens from there? I have no idea. Michael might die, maybe he gets the sword back anyway and kills Bianca and the Nightmare on his own. Maybe he does just walk out but it sets him on the path to making sacrifices for what he cares about. Michael vs Susan. Killing tonprotect himself and those he cares about. And after all, if you have to kill to survive isn't it better to kill YOURSELF, especially when you hate yourself as much as Dresden does after ma and ing that decision.
And thus Harey falls down the slippery slope, willing to gather power and make sacrifices as needed. As he often reminds us, the bad guy rarely sees himself as such. Just like Nicodemus is the hero of his own story.
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" All I had to do was let Michael die, laim the protection of hospitality for Susan, and walk out."
This is the decision...
I don't think so, because the WoJ says it's the decision "at the end" of the book.
I expect your chain of logical and emotional consequences is pretty close to spot-on, though; whichever the actual choice-point is.
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There are only two decisions at the end of the book that were "major".
1) Did he say "I love you" to Susan when trapped in the room
2) Did he accept or refuse the vampire's offer at the end "to walk away" at the price of leaving Susan behind.
Both would most likely have led to Susan's death (or becoming a blood thrall) and both would likely have delayed the war with the Red Court. In the first Susan's death would have made it acceptable for Dresden to accept an adjudicated settlement and the chance for later revenge. The 2nd required that same outcome.
No war would have prevented the mass extermination of Wardens and delayed the actions of the Kemlerites quite a bit. So the events in Dead Beat would not have happened and Harry would never become a warden. As his warden status and relationship with Lucio went a long way to reconciling Harry with the White Council, it is easy to speculate that Harry's interactions with the council get worse rather than better, especially with the "negotiated settlement" likely to really piss Harry off. Enough worse that when Molly exhibited power, he would not have trusted them to judge her correctly.
And at some point the war with the Red Court will start up -- with Harry's help- but this time the White Council really will blame Harry.
At that point, I suspect plots have diverged significantly and I will have to wait for Mirror Mirror to see what ended up.
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I don't think so, because the WoJ says it's the decision "at the end" of the book.
I expect your chain of logical and emotional consequences is pretty close to spot-on, though; whichever the actual choice-point is.
I believe he says 'Towards the end'. I'd count this as towards the end.
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Also, does anyone else feel like it would be a huge missed opportunity in Mirror Mirror if we don't get a Harry on Harey soul gaze?
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Also, does anyone else feel like it would be a huge missed opportunity in Mirror Mirror if we don't get a Harry on Harey soul gaze?
Well, I would now that you've mentioned it.
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Right! And that Mirror!Harry tells Prime!Harry what his soul looks like.
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Right! And that Mirror!Harry tells Prime!Harry what his soul looks like.
Nah.
Mirror!Harry is too twisted and squirrelly. He's Sith!Harry. Whatever he says will be aimed at getting to Harry.
Unless it's Harry' doing a strategic "redemptive" Soulgaze -- "see? I didn't turn to the dark side, and I survived! You can survive too! Come back to the Light, Anakin-Harry!"
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And that Mirror!Harry tells Prime!Harry what his soul looks like.
Actually, based on what Jim has said about souls (basically, that they don't change based on our experiences, they just become more true and more refined versions of themselves) Prime!Harry might not need Mirror!Harry to tell him anything--they have essentially the same soul, with what probably amounts to some cosmetic differences.
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Oh, that's a good point. What do you think Harry's soul looks like?
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Actually, based on what Jim has said about souls (basically, that they don't change based on our experiences, they just become more true and more refined versions of themselves) Prime!Harry might not need Mirror!Harry to tell him anything--they have essentially the same soul, with what probably amounts to some cosmetic differences.
But you can also lose your soul, such as to a Denarian (Rasmussen wasn't born chained to a rock in screaming agony & madness). Dunno that Lloyd Slate had a sterling soul, even before he connected with Winter, but I think he got a lot worse with the WK Mantle.
And Jim has also stated this (that you CAN lose your soul, and it doesn't HAVE to take a literal "deal with Hell" to do it) to be the case.
fwiw
So...
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But you can also lose your soul, such as to a Denarian (Rasmussen wasn't born chained to a rock in screaming agony & madness). Dunno that Lloyd Slate had a sterling soul, even before he connected with Winter, but I think he got a lot worse with the WK Mantle.
And Jim has also stated this (that you CAN lose your soul, and it doesn't HAVE to take a literal "deal with Hell" to do it) to be the case.
fwiw
So...
Yeah, Slate is a bit of a mystery, I seem to remember two different accounts of him. One that he wasn't a bad person to start with, but weak, the mantle of the Winter Knight destroyed him. Another I seem to remember that he was a drug addict and perhaps a minor criminal and the mantle only made things worse. I guess the key is Mab let Maeve pick him so he was doomed from the start.
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Here's the text of some applicable WoJs:
Jim: What [a soulgaze] shows you is /true/. But it isn’t necessarily /all/.
For instance, a ‘gaze could show you that a man was self-disciplined, sober, highly organized, dedicated to his principles, and that he loved dogs, and all of that would be /true/. But it /doesn’t/ tell you /everything/ about Adolf Hitler.
Granted, a soulgaze of Hitler would probably have given off a big vibe of either “crazy” or “ruthless” too. They tend to give you a pretty good core sample of the individual in question. However, every wizard gets things a little bit differently than any other, in terms of how the soulgaze is perceived. Not every wizard sees things in symbols and allegory, the way Harry does. There’s a whole spectrum of different “filters,” I suppose, of how the basic natures of others are perceived.
As for misinterpreting what they perceive, or putting their own preconceptions on their interpretations? Please. EVERYONE does that, wizard or not. It’s part of being human.
In reply to the question of whether a soul can change over time, my humble opinion lays thusly:
Since your soul is the essential you, anything that truly touches you will change your soul. I know that having to watch a five year old die over a period of months while I and the rest of my pedi ICU did everything we could to save him changed me. I know that meeting and falling in love (yes, and finally marrying her!) with my Lady and Wife changed me. And I know that there are more changes down the road.
I an not the person I was at twenty. Nor am I yet the pperson I will be at sixty if I should get that far. Life is an ongoing process, after all.
Jim: Ah, but is it a process of pressure and change, or is it a process of polish and refinement? One could argue that the events that “changed” you in actuality only revealed a truer facet of your soul than had previously been perceiveable–that those events only changed you inasmuch as a rough diamond is changed by a master jeweler’s tools. The diamond doesn’t become an emerald–it just becomes a more beautiful and quinessential diamond.
(Just Devil’s Advocating here, for the most part, and throwing that thought out.)
In any case, it may just be possible for a person to change enough for a soulgaze to reveal something else–but it would have to be an utterly incredible kind of change. Something along the lines of the billionaire executive who, after a near-death experience, gives all his worldly goods to charity, leaves home in his pajamas, and takes up a life of underwater basket-weaving and meditation. And even that seems a little mild to me, thinking of it.
Anyway, it’d take a truly epic change of heart and mind–to the point where you would practically *be* a whole different person, and not just a person who happens to be you with a lot more life experience to inform his outlook.
(And, in fact, there’s all sorts of theories about people who this happens to after a near-death experience, regarding “walk-in” souls who come and inhabit a person near death, changing them and becoming a kind of inner Yoda to the “native” soul.)
The third sight reveals truths about people and places that aren’t evident to the naked eye. Are the specific images that are seen intrinsic to the subject, or is there a measure of personal metaphor and interpretation on the part of the viewer? In other words… Let’s say that Wizard A grew up in America, and may consider the embodiment of evil to be a devil-like figure. Wizard B is from India, and might instead associate evil with a rakshasa. They each view a subject with their third sight. The subject is a vile and malicious person. Would this be revealed to them both in the same way, or would what each one sees be influenced by his own cultural background?
Jim: Not only would the Western-raised wizard and Eastern-raised wizard perceive things according to the cultural biases and subjective experiences, they might not even perceive them with the same /senses/.
The Third Sight is different for everyone, subjective, and inherently slanted towards ones own experiences and background. So while two wizards might look on some totally-gone, bloodthirsty warlock and see a bloodthirsty warlock, they might see it in very different ways.
Maybe Harry looks on him and sees some Hannibal-Lectery figure crouched on the floor grinning and soaked in blood. But maybe Ancient Mai looks on him and sees a bare, twisted white tree in the center of an unbroken field of white snow, representative of the individual’s loss of spirit and humanity. And maybe Rodriguez looks at him and hears some kind of hideous music that accompanies the individual and makes the hair on the back of Carlos’ neck stand up. Maybe Klaus the Toymaker looks at them and sees that his head is covered in cracks and flaws, and that underneath the parts where the flesh looks chipped away, something rotten and horrible is underneath. Maybe Listens-to-Wind looks on the warlock and smells something rotted and vile.
It’s way different for each wizard, and it’s why even though soulgazes and third sight can be used as evidence in, for example, warlock trials, there is also room for argument and interpretation–that’s how Ebenezar defended Dresden, for example. He claimed that he Saw more than just “murdering warlock.”
Plus, it isn’t flawless. I mean, if a wizard looks at someone who has just suffered some kind of horrible physical or emotional injury, he gets a much different picture of that person than if he sees them a week sooner, or a year later. If a wizard looks on someone who is in a towering rage at the moment, it’s going to have an effect on what is Seen. Maybe not an enormous effect, true, but at times even a little bit of difference in shading can change the overall picture. Oh, plus if the /Wizard/ is in a radically altered state of mind, it can shade things differently, too.
Ultimately, the Sight is something that is best relied upon for making one’s own decisions, for supporting one’s intuitions and observations–as long as one remembers that while it is always true, it isn’t always completely correct. Circumstance can, at tmes, effect what is Seen.
What all this seems to amount to is that if Prime!Harry soulgazes Mirror!Harry, he will see his own soul, but with different facets highlighted/revealed, and with a potentially different shading. He'll definitely see something that's quintessentially him, but probably with the soul equivalent of different clothes and makeup, and probably some different scars.
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Can you initiate a soul gaze with yourself?
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Can you initiate a soul gaze with yourself?
There's a great line to start Mirror! Mirror! lol
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Course Merlin jumped dimensions, he made DR five times at the same time, I read that to mean five different versions of him all collaborated on it.
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Can you initiate a soul gaze with yourself?
Then he screams, goes into a fetal position and ends up in a straight jacket! :(