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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on October 23, 2023, 03:46:08 AM
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I'm talking about everyone we can reasonably guess was infected by the Nemesis bug.
There are also characters who may not have become infected, but who were tempted into making deals that corrupted them in other ways. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Victor Sells, The Hexenwolf FBI agents and Leonid Kravos weren't actually infected by Nemesis, despite what Lily told Harry in Cold Days. Simply approaching and making a deal to teach Sells and Kravos black magic would quickly corrupt them and they would be willing to do just about anything to learn more. We saw what the hexenwolf belt almost did to Harry, so it's no mystery how FBI agents were corrupted by them. It's possible some or all of these characters did become nemfected, but I doubt it and in any case we can't be certain.
The first character who we can reasonably guess was nemfected is Aurora. We don't know when Nemesis got to her, just that it was before the events in Summer Knight and because Elaine was spending time in the Summer Court, she makes a pretty good suspect. The problem is we do not have any information about anyone else who may have been visiting Summer or had contact with Aurora. If you go back and reread the scene in Summer Knight when Harry brought a wounded Elaine to be healed by Aurora, there were one or two other humans who were working with some of the Summer Fae on a couple of artistic endeavors. They were about as minor as characters can get. They didn't have any lines of dialogue and weren't named, but there very presence tells us that some other mortal could have visited Summer and infected Aurora. How it was done is a mystery.
Next is the Leanansidhe. We know she was given the tainted athame at Bianca's masquerade party. Lea told Harry this in Ghost Story and Mab confirmed it near the end of Battle Ground. Cowl and Kumori handled the gifts that Bianca gave out. Unless Cowl took the gig of acting as one of Bianca's flunkies as a second job to pay off his student loans, it's a pretty good bet he knew exactly what he was handling. Kumori might have also been in on the plot or Cowl might have kept her in the dark and gave her a seemingly plausible explanation for their actions that night. My guess is she knew something, but maybe not everything. If Elaine = Kumori then her knowing that she was helping to spread the Nemesis bug makes much more sense.
Maeve was tainted by contact with Lea. So there's no real mystery here. She must have been tainted sometime before the events in Proven Guilty.
Cat Sith was most likely grabbed by HWWBf when the malk was covering Harry's retreat. This would be an example of direct contamination from an Outsider, not by the use of a tainted item.
Justine is a real mystery. I doubt she was contaminated because Nemesis jumped from Maeve when Murphy shot the ice princess in the head. Justine wasn't acting like herself for a long time before Cold Days. In the short story Even Hand she was acting like a top flight secret agent when she chose to go to Marcone's HQ in order to evade the Fomor lord who was chasing her. That story took place between the events in Turn Coat and Changes, but I suspect Nemesis got to her much earlier than that. Just before the duel in the Raith Deeps in White Night, Justine surprised Harry by the confident and collected way she was able to describe the events taking place and rivalry between Skavis and Malvora. It was almost like she wasn't the real Justine.
But when Justine got the Nemesis bug isn't nearly important than how she got it. That is, if I'm right that it didn't happen on Demonreach near the end of Cold Days. Because, if I am right, then Nemesis got to Justine while she was under Lara's protection. Justine would have been on the grounds of House Raith or at Thomas' apartment most of that time. Here's a possible explanation how it could have happened. Maybe it happened when she did her secret agent thing offscreen before the start of Even Hand. I believe she infiltrated a Fomor base. She would have been vulnerable then. Maybe she wasn't successful and was captured but Nemesis was present in someone or something else and saw an opportunity in Justine by making it look like she had succeeded. It would explain her demeanor with Marcone. I haven't reread that story in a long time, but I recall that Justine came across as very calculating in her decisions and actions. Perhaps Justine had told Harry the truth in White Night when she said medication had made her a more stable person.
What else can you think of that we know or can reasonably guess about Nemesis? I suspect there is at least one other character who is nemfected. Is there anyone else you think could be a Nemesis agent?
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As mentioned at the end of the other thread, I put some suspicion on Harry changing cat sith simply by interacting with him. From how Elaine puts it she was Aurora's mortal "bestie" for years. It's pretty much a given that starborn CAN change things, but I don't think they're directly vectors for Nemesis in this way, but that some things changing does directly open them to Nemesis. The fae courts and their delicate sense of balance being easy targets.
Lea for instance.. the knife gave her Nemesis as it's vector, but considering it's very presence upset the balance of the winter courts shouldn't she have not taken it to begin with? And then later I think she confronted Mab on Harry's behalf, thinking herself not beholden to Mab and it was then that Mab saw the bigger picture on what was happening with her.
Justine I think is relatively easy to guess, I don't think she ever fully recovered from what thomas did to her, combine that with her already dual manor/congenital crazy and WC feeding being both addicting and damaging to the psyche and nemesis had a meat suit to step right into that was largely unoccupied.
Start to look at what Justine has done since then interacting with both the fomor and Marcone(remembering someone put the best time for Marcone to have actually picked up the coin to be post his short story) and she's might have been spreading herself or meddling already...
Actually, taking another look at peabody.. Nemesis seems to have a thing for the well connected bureaucratic underlying just as much as the young unstable female practitioner.
That would put nameless in the same group of people Nemesis would love access to.
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Or..... And it may sound outrageous, Justine was a Nemesis plant from the very beginning. What better cover than this beautiful bit of "kine" was supposedly insane, that she was given to Thomas [son of Margaret] to nibble on by Lord Raith. More interesting, though Thomas is young, his feeding never gets out of control so that she dies, but goes far enough to counter her insanity. In the meantime Thomas falls hopelessly in love with her, "true love," he also meets up with his brother, the star born wizard, Harry Dresden.. Hmmm, do we smell a rat here about? Long term planning, really long term Nemesis planning..
One step further, something is protecting Lord Raith, the theory is it is Outsiders, how about old Nemesis itself? Did Margaret realize this? Is this why when she fell in love with Malcolm, a suitable mate to produce a star born who could take on Nemesis someday she left him and set up a death curse that would hold some of Lord Raith's power in check. But her plan wasn't perfect, she had to leave her little son, Thomas behind. And yeah, Nemesis always has a plan "B."
Odd don't you think that while Lord Raith manages to kill off all his male sons, somehow Thomas
manages to survive. I believe that Lord Raith not only knew who the brother of Thomas was, he also knows Harry is a star born threat. So, the gift of Justine to Thomas, outwardly she is food, nothing more. Somehow his feeding keeps her insanity in check, they fall in love, "true love," she is willing to give her life to save his life in Blood Rites. How did she survive that feeding? Was the severely wounded Thomas really able to stop himself in time to save her life at the cost of his own? Oh, and somehow he survived when he stopped feeding though supposedly he was dying. Or because she was infested with Nemesis to begin with, Justine was never in an danger of death, it just looked that way..
What better spy could Nemesis have not just to keep Thomas in line but to keep tabs on Harry as well. Not only that Lara feels she is in debt to Justine for willing to sacrifice herself to save her brother and saving her beloved brother.. So Justine now becomes her private secretary and confident.. Lord Raith appears to be very weak, he cannot feed, but he is still protected by Nemesis and Nemesis now has access to any of Lara's plans, also through Thomas has a handle of what Harry is up to.. Long term plan? What went down in Peace Talks and Battle Ground is the fruit from that.
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... It's pretty much a given that starborn CAN change things ...
I'm pretty certain that's a mortal thing, a human thing; not limited to Starborn. Human choices, free will, love... This is potent, potent stuff in the Dresdenverse. It dwarfs the power of the White Council, dwarfs even Mab's power.
A human choice, freely made, can split the entire universe, creating a whole new branch of reality.
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... The first character who we can reasonably guess was nemfected is Aurora. We don't know when Nemesis got to her, just that it was before the events in Summer Knight and because Elaine was spending time in the Summer Court, she makes a pretty good suspect. The problem is we do not have any information about anyone else who may have been visiting Summer or had contact with Aurora. If you go back and reread the scene in Summer Knight when Harry brought a wounded Elaine to be healed by Aurora, there were one or two other humans who were working with some of the Summer Fae on a couple of artistic endeavors. They were about as minor as characters can get. They didn't have any lines of dialogue and weren't named, but there very presence tells us that some other mortal could have visited Summer and infected Aurora. How it was done is a mystery.
I don't think you can rely upon those minor characters being human. There was all sorts of faerie glamour in play.
But I'm pretty sure Elaine herself was the Nemvector that got Aurora.
She went from Justin's enthrallment to Aurora's bargain, and likely carried Nemesis with her.
... Justine is a real mystery. I doubt she was contaminated because Nemesis jumped from Maeve when Murphy shot the ice princess in the head. Justine wasn't acting like herself for a long time before Cold Days. In the short story Even Hand she was acting like a top flight secret agent when she chose to go to Marcone's HQ in order to evade the Fomor lord who was chasing her. That story took place between the events in Turn Coat and Changes, but I suspect Nemesis got to her much earlier than that. Just before the duel in the Raith Deeps in White Night, Justine surprised Harry by the confident and collected way she was able to describe the events taking place and rivalry between Skavis and Malvora. It was almost like she wasn't the real Justine.
But when Justine got the Nemesis bug isn't nearly important than how she got it. That is, if I'm right that it didn't happen on Demonreach near the end of Cold Days. Because, if I am right, then Nemesis got to Justine while she was under Lara's protection. Justine would have been on the grounds of House Raith or at Thomas' apartment most of that time. Here's a possible explanation how it could have happened. Maybe it happened when she did her secret agent thing offscreen before the start of Even Hand. I believe she infiltrated a Fomor base. She would have been vulnerable then. Maybe she wasn't successful and was captured but Nemesis was present in someone or something else and saw an opportunity in Justine by making it look like she had succeeded. It would explain her demeanor with Marcone. I haven't reread that story in a long time, but I recall that Justine came across as very calculating in her decisions and actions. Perhaps Justine had told Harry the truth in White Night when she said medication had made her a more stable person.
I think Justine got infected by something in Papa Raith's collection.
We know Raith père had Outsider-magic protecting him. We know he also had an Outsider-summoning ritual. IIRC, there's WoJ saying he had become aware of the Starborn cycle, which is obviously linked to Outsider action; and he was working to become a power-player in the big battles to come. He had amassed a huge library, trying to get himself up to speed. It seems pretty likely that a relative novice, collecting like mad and scrambling for power, will make some bad decisions in this arena and unwittingly collect some very dangerous items.
Plus, it'd make good storytelling sense for Harry to get access to such a trove; and lo! his new fiance is heir to that collection.
I figure Lara had tapped poor, vague Justine to help her with sorting the collection (the odds of Justine being able to focus enough to recall anything useful, or report to others, would have seemed minimal). But something in there spoke to her... offered her the chance to help Thomas, the chance to be with Thomas again.
What else can you think of that we know or can reasonably guess about Nemesis? I suspect there is at least one other character who is nemfected. Is there anyone else you think could be a Nemesis agent?
Nemesis wants to get close to the power-players...
It likely has someone near to Marcone... Demeter/Beckitt? She has already shown she is willing to make poor deals for power/revenge. Marcone's enforcer, Childs? I don't think we have much evidence, but I think *someone* close to Marcone is Nemfected.
Likewise Odin. He's a much harder target, but even more valuable to Nemesis. One of the Einherjaren, or even one of the Valkyries? Again, I think we don't have any evidence, nothing shown on-screen.
I'm sure there's another Nemesis agent within the White Council. I'm thinking someone high up amongst the Wardens, but possibly one of the Senior Council. Luccio looks likely to me... relatively-recent psychic wound, struggling emotionally, trying to get/recover power, highly-trusted... pretty much perfect, in fact. Plus: Luccio would hurt Harry way more than if it were one of the minor named Wardens.
Unspotted agents seem likely in any given Faerie court. Winter (as the primary Outsider-foe) would be most-valuable to Nemesis, but Summer can be almost as good; the Erlking's court, too. As above, I don't think Jim has written any hints/clues/evidence onscreen for any of these.
I expect others, but none spring to mind at the moment.
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I figure Lara had tapped poor, vague Justine to help her with sorting the collection (the odds of Justine being able to focus enough to recall anything useful, or report to others, would have seemed minimal). But something in there spoke to her... offered her the chance to help Thomas, the chance to be with Thomas again.
Lara made her her private secretary after Blood Rites. Justine was also able to share plenty.. Odd that her mental illness was suddenly cured, don't you think?
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I'm pretty certain that's a mortal thing, a human thing; not limited to Starborn. Human choices, free will, love... This is potent, potent stuff in the Dresdenverse. It dwarfs the power of the White Council, dwarfs even Mab's power.
A human choice, freely made, can split the entire universe, creating a whole new branch of reality.
I mean things not meant to change, like I'm pretty sure most mortals call him Uri and Uriel isn't going to gather clouds and crack thunder on them. But Harry Dresden doing it was a threat to who he was.
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Lara made her her private secretary after Blood Rites. Justine was also able to share plenty.. Odd that her mental illness was suddenly cured, don't you think?
Yes indeed; I'm pretty sure mentally- and emotionally-fragile Justine, longing for Thomas, was a plum ripe for Nemesis' picking.
And there she was, sorting through Papa Raith's collection of Outsider documents & items... Let's throw a match on that gasoline, eh? And a lit road-flare. And some extra kerosine. A few handfuls of powdered trinitrotoluene. Sprinkle some nitroglycerine. We wanna make sure our marshmallow gets toasted!
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Yes indeed; I'm pretty sure mentally- and emotionally-fragile Justine, longing for Thomas, was a plum ripe for Nemesis' picking.
And there she was, sorting through Papa Raith's collection of Outsider documents & items... Let's throw a match on that gasoline, eh? And a lit road-flare. And some extra kerosine. A few handfuls of powdered trinitrotoluene. Sprinkle some nitroglycerine. We wanna make sure our marshmallow gets toasted!
No need, HWWB is there to do it for her... It may be far fetched, but consider she and Thomas were living together, her Nemfected self arranged to get pregnant and Thomas is influenced to become an assassin and nobody noticed that anything was off about her? Me thinks you underestimate Nemesis.. ::)
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Ever since Justine's reveal, I have always assumed she got infected by Nemesis early on working for Lara. How that happened is a mystery, but I would guess it was while Cowl still had agents in the White Court (assuming he doesn't have them any more..)
Lara seems more like Drakul, in that now she understands the Game, she is playing at a higher level. She isn't so worried about small stuff like merely ruling the White Court. So I can't see her allying with Outsiders or whatever. Not for the moment. But she does want to gain a lot more power, and it seems she has a strategy (given how apparently she is going for power "in a big way" according to Thomas).
Nemesis we still know frighteningly little about.
We know:
- It can possess/infect/corrupt other beings both immortal and mortal (although there might be limits on more powerful beings).
- There is a limit to how many it can "infect" although we don't know what that limit is
- It can't be detected except through the Sight (presumably only mortals and certain immortals can see it), but this is dangerous
- It's better to try and guess who it has infected as it's more "art than a skill" according to the Gatekeeper
- It's very powerful and has a lot of reach
- It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.
- Its long term goal is "Empty Night" "the unravelling of all things"
- Even the Gatekeeper at the focus of his power cannot always be sure
- Even Uriel might not always know given how power from the Outside works, according to WOJ
- If He Who Walks Before (Sharkface) is the harbinger and vanguard leader, and He Who Walks Behind is the assassin and ruling knight, then He Who Walks Beside (Nemesis) and is the infiltrator and sapper and agent of sabotage and espionage.
- We have no idea what a "Walker" is but that title keeps coming up, and suggests even among Outsiders the Walkers are special. The current theory is they are some sort of planeswalkers which gives them special powers in the multiverse. But we don't have any confirmation of this.
- Nemesis seems to have caused a LOT more destruction currently than his brothers/peers. It will be interesting to see if they are saving their strength or simply play far different roles (or are perhaps just a lot less effective).
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- It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.
I disagree with that, Nemesis does plan, the gift of the infected knife to Lea in Grave Peril is one of the early examples we know of.. The plan was to infiltrate the Winter Court, it was successful, Lea infected, Mab most likely infected, both realized it and hopefully cured themselves, Maeve not so lucky, dead, we don't know how Cat Sith became infected but he is now dead as well. Long term goals require planning, a foundation has to be set down before one can even think of achieving the goal. Nemesis may seem like an agent of chaos because that is the result of many of their plans, but in every case that chaos was created with a goal in mind.. We all have surmised that Aurora was infected, up for debate if Elaine was the agent or not, but there was a plan behind it.. Aurora was stopped by Harry, but even her death furthered the goals of Nemesis. Call it luck, but when Aurora died her mantel went to the nearest vessel, who was Lily. No, I am not saying she was infected, but Lily was a lot less capable, as in not having the knowledge or the tools to become a Lady of the Summer Court. Thus it was much easier for Infested Maeve to dupe her, and we saw the result of that.
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1. It can't be detected except through the Sight (presumably only mortals and certain immortals can see it), but this is dangerous
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2. It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.
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3. We have no idea what a "Walker" is but that title keeps coming up, and suggests even among Outsiders the Walkers are special.
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I don't think the Sight is reliable... not even good at it... more like "not as useless as most methods." The Gatekeeper is an anti-Outsider specialist and he can't be sure, even after a careful examination.
Nemesis, I think, is very much a strategic planner. If only from the perspective of who it chooses to Nemfect
I think there are 3 Walkers -- HWW Behind, Before, & Beside. Lash said the Walkers were "Knights" of the Outsiders, exceptionally dangerous even amongst dangerous foes.
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I don't think the Sight is reliable... not even good at it... more like "not as useless as most methods." The Gatekeeper is an anti-Outsider specialist and he can't be sure, even after a careful examination.
I believe that Rashid warned Harry about using the sight because while it may be effective the damage he did to himself wasn't worth the risk and Harry was reminded of what looking at the Skinwalker did to him. And he saw in Rashid's face when he said that that he had suffered similar
damage from this. Rashid then pointed to his false eye, which isn't made of steel as it appears away from the Gates, but to be made of the same material as the Gates, and was given to him by the Fates if I remember correctly. Even using that tool, Rashid said it was still difficult to be able to spot who was infected and who was not.
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I suspect the limit to how many he can infect is 13.
It's a pretty powerful number all round, but both Cornerhounds and Hunstmen of the Outside come in groups of 13.
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I suspect the limit to how many he can infect is 13.
It's a pretty powerful number all round, but both Cornerhounds and Hunstmen of the Outside come in groups of 13.
Yeah, but again, we need more information.. So Nemesis is limited to infecting 13, a more important question is can each of those thirteen pass the infection on to thirteen others and so on?
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Yeah, but again, we need more information.. So Nemesis is limited to infecting 13, a more important question is can each of those thirteen pass the infection on to thirteen others and so on?
How many Nemvectors can there be?
Must a Nemvector be one of Nemesis' instances (whether that number is 13, or 7, or 713, or whatever)?
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How many Nemvectors can there be?
Must a Nemvector be one of Nemesis' instances (whether that number is 13, or 7, or 713, or whatever)?
I'm thinking in terms of how infectious disease spreads. If one Nemfected being can spread it to 13 other beings, and each of them are able to spread it to thirteen others, you can see where this is heading pretty fast. However so far there is no little or no evidence of how quickly it spreads, beyond what we are told. We know or assume that Lea got infected through direct contact with the knife, and Mab as well, because she also had direct contact, we don't know however how Maeve or Cat Sith got it.. It is possible that before she realized it was the knife that was the vector that Mab gave the knife to her daughter. That might be another really good reason why she was so pissed with herself, "it was the knife." None of that explains Cat Sith though, did he have contact with Lea, Mab, or Maeve? Would he have had any contact with the knife? Or did his infestation come from somewhere else?
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Nemesis has to be limited to a small number of hosts or it would have won already. This is an entity that has been around since the beginning of human history. If it spread like a virus and just doubled every year, it could have infected the entire population of earth by now.
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Nemesis has to be limited to a small number of hosts or it would have won already. This is an entity that has been around since the beginning of human history. If it spread like a virus and just doubled every year, it could have infected the entire population of earth by now.
I agree for the most part, yet one reason why it hasn't spread is the Winter Court and the Gate Keeper have been so good at keeping it out.
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I think the WoJ is that it has an absolute cap on how many simultaneous Nemfected beings there can be at any given time.
Some speculate the cap is 13.
Some have wondered if there's a total power-level it can control, so maybe 13 mortals, but fewer total if it's enforcing its will on beings like the Leanansidhe, Aurora, Cat Sith, etc.
I'm also wondering if inanimate Nemvectors (like the Athame) count against that cap.
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I think the WoJ is that it has an absolute cap on how many simultaneous Nemfected beings there can be at any given time.
Some speculate the cap is 13.
Some have wondered if there's a total power-level it can control, so maybe 13 mortals, but fewer total if it's enforcing its will on beings like the Leanansidhe, Aurora, Cat Sith, etc.
I'm also wondering if inanimate Nemvectors (like the Athame) count against that cap.
Or subject to change? As in Jim may not have that worked out yet himself. Or it sounds like what we are calling infection really isn't in the classic sense of the word. It is hard to say on the Athame, because in the Winter Court we know on page of two who had physical contact with it, Lea and Mab. Since Mab seemed to be blaming it as a source for Maeve's infection, it implies that she had contact with it also.. However there is no evidence on page that either Maeve or Cat Sith had physical contact with the Athame.
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Or subject to change? ...
Jim himself seems to have specifically not specified the exact number.
I strongly suspect that's because he hasn't decided: As an author, he wants to reserve that detail to serve the needs of future stories...
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Jim himself seems to have specifically not specified the exact number.
I strongly suspect that's because he hasn't decided: As an author, he wants to reserve that detail to serve the needs of future stories...
Indeed!
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... Or it sounds like what we are calling infection really isn't in the classic sense of the word ...
I very much doubt that Nemesis works identically to any mundane biological infectious disease!
It's merely a good simile in some specific narrow-focus cases.
... Since Mab seemed to be blaming it as a source for Maeve's infection, it implies that she had contact with it also ...
I don't think that's implied, at all. "It was the knife" is simply a statement of how Nemfection entered the Winter Court.
Whether Lea then used the Athame to nemfect Maeve, or whether Lea herself was the Nemvector that got Maeve (or whether Lea nemfected some unrevealed additional agent (unseen onstage) who in turn got to Maeve) isn't -- AFAIK -- addressed by Mab's statement.
Another possibilty: what if it was Mab herself who, in forcing Nemesis out of Lea (there at the Winter Well), allowed it (unbeknownst to Mab) to enter Maeve? Extra pain and rage for Mab!
But I think Cat Sith is yet another instance, unrelated to the Lea/Maeve nemfection.
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I don't think that's implied, at all. "It was the knife" is simply a statement of how Nemfection entered the Winter Court.
another aspect of the knife and Leah not to be forgotten, is she thought she could use it to take on "that which stalks us all" hindsight 20/20 obviously Nemesis itself. So she knew it was a vector to Nemesis, and thought between its power and the connection she could take Nemesis through it I think. It backfired, she didn't expect the knife to open her up in return as much as it did.
An I'd guess it's such a good vector(though itself not Nfected in the direct sense), because as her atheme, it has not only worked black magic but worked Morganna's magic, and tasted her blood during ritual too.
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another aspect of the knife and Leah not to be forgotten, is she thought she could use it to take on "that which stalks us all" hindsight 20/20 obviously Nemesis itself. So she knew it was a vector to Nemesis, and thought between its power and the connection she could take Nemesis through it I think. It backfired, she didn't expect the knife to open her up in return as much as it did.
An I'd guess it's such a good vector(though itself not Nfected in the direct sense), because as her atheme, it has not only worked black magic but worked Morganna's magic, and tasted her blood during ritual too.
I really doubt that, in my opinion Lea wanted more power and thought it would aid her in her power struggle with Mab. Lea lost and gave way and gave up the knife to Mab, neither realized until it became apparent that it was infected that it was.
I don't think that's implied, at all. "It was the knife" is simply a statement of how Nemfection entered the Winter Court.
So? Yes, it is implied, since we know the knife was infested, until Maeve turned up with it the only two who were infested also had contact with the knife.. So until we get further information, which we do not have, it is a hypothesis. Yes, Nemesis entered the Winter Court through the knife, but how did the infestation jump from it to Lea, Mab, Maeve, and Cat Sith? Was it actual physical contact with the knife that got Lea and Mab infested? Or once in the Court, Nemesis jumped off the knife like a flea off a dog's back to infest everyone who was vulnerable to it's whispers?
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another aspect of the knife and Leah not to be forgotten, is she thought she could use it to take on "that which stalks us all" hindsight 20/20 obviously Nemesis itself...
It isn't, to me, obvious that "that which stalks us all" = Nemesis.
It's one reasonably-likely hypothesis, but not uniquely-likely.
Maybe the "us all" isn't "everyone" but "faeries" and what's "stalking" them all is the ever-tightening strictures of doing what they must do, being who they must be: beings like Winter-Queen Mab, Winter-Lady Maeve, and the Leanansidhe... they have almost no freedom or free will, because they are so intensely who and what they are...
What even is the Leanansidhe's name? Does anyone know, or remember, or care anymore?
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I really doubt that, in my opinion Lea wanted more power and thought it would aid her in her power struggle with Mab.
That too; but The_Sibelis is correct: Lea stated outright (when she was bound by Faerie Law & unble to lie) that she sought to oppose "that which stalks us all." It doesn't have to be an either/or exclusive choice. She wanted a powerup vs. Mab, too (unless we can uncover some construction whereby Mab herself (or Winter, generally) is "that which stalks us all").
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That too; but The_Sibelis is correct: Lea stated outright (when she was bound by Faerie Law & unble to lie) that she sought to oppose "that which stalks us all." It doesn't have to be an either/or exclusive choice. She wanted a powerup vs. Mab, too (unless we can uncover some construction whereby Mab herself (or Winter, generally) is "that which stalks us all").
If I remember correctly, and though I remember her saying that, I believe she said that after
Mab had confronted her about the knife and took it from her. Lea was humbled and we later have that scene where Mab had the knife in her belt. So apparently neither Mab nor Lea suspected the knife was infested, because if Mab suspected why would she put it in her belt?
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really doubt that, in my opinion Lea wanted more power and thought it would aid her in her power struggle with Mab. Lea lost and gave way and gave up the knife to Mab, neither realized until it became apparent that it was infected that it was.
is pretty much directly contradicted by the book.
isn't, to me, obvious that "that which stalks us all" = Nemesis.
It's one reasonably-likely hypothesis, but not uniquely-likely.
Maybe the "us all" isn't "everyone" but "faeries" and what's "stalking" them all is the ever-tightening strictures of doing what they must do, being who they must be: beings like Winter-Queen Mab, Winter-Lady Maeve, and the Leanansidhe... they have almost no freedom or free will, because they are so intensely who and what they are...
What even is the Leanansidhe's name? Does anyone know, or remember, or care anymore?
well it should be. It's immediately obvious to me you have it backwards tho. The Adversary is specifically called such by the fae(and indeed when talking about others "opposites" they have specifically referenced "their adversary" in the heaven n hell balance instead of An Adversary) just as the courts are tasked with protecting reality their adversary is tasked with breaking it, all of it. It is The End that nobody is safe from.
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is pretty much directly contradicted by the book.
Which book are you referring to? Not trying to be snarky, but like to read context. What I am talking about is when we first meet Lea, before she got the knife at the party. She gives a pretty good impression of someone who desired more power.
well it should be. It's immediately obvious to me you have it backwards tho. The Adversary is specifically called such by the fae(and indeed when talking about others "opposites" they have specifically referenced "their adversary" in the heaven n hell balance instead of An Adversary) just as the courts are tasked with protecting reality their adversary is tasked with breaking it, all of it. It is The End that nobody is safe from.
No, they call Nemesis, the adversary, because it is safer to do so.
page 326 Cold Days
"Quite so," said Mother Summer. "And if you do heed Mab's command?'
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if... the adversary? Can I say that safely?"
Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name, Sir Knight. Yes."
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Which book are you referring to? Not trying to be snarky, but like to read context.
oop, my fault, my mind slipped over the imo part and read it as you doubted lea wanted more power and they realized when she went at mab. That did happen. 🤔 which part did you doubt?
I'm well aware of the Adversary and why it's called such, that statement doesn't directly parry mine tho. I like to point out The Adversary can be called such(and 'the' is indeed capitalized by them when doing so iirc) because that is its title. Nemesis is a name, one of its names that draws it's attention.
They also go out of their way when speaking of others specific opposites, "their adversary" instead often without capitalizing. Now forgive me my old English teachers for this crap explanation but..The proper usage(because a fae would) for a station that denotes centrality or focus from their perspective would be a personal or broad The. Nemesis is not an adversary, or "our" adversary when speaking personally or within the fae ranks of which Harry is a part of. It's The Adversary.
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They also go out of their way when speaking of others specific opposites, "their adversary" instead often without capitalizing. Now forgive me my old English teachers for this crap explanation but..The proper usage(because a fae would) for a station that denotes centrality or focus from their perspective would be a personal or broad The. Nemesis is not an adversary, or "our" adversary when speaking personally or within the fae ranks of which Harry is a part of. It's The Adversary.
Blame Jim, he wrote it, not me, and yes, I know how to use punctuation... Check out page 326 of Cold Days, Harry's conversation with Mother Summer. Adversary is not capitalized nor is adversary used as a general term. Harry and Mother Summer were speaking about Nemesis, but going Voldemort about it, also using no capitalization.
page 326 Cold Days
"Quite so," said Mother Summer. "And if you do heed Mab's command?'
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if... the adversary? Can I say that safely?"
Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name, Sir Knight. Yes."
Next paragraph, little doubt what is being referred to given the book's storyline, again page 326 Cold Days
"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle. Two-thirds of the Winter Court will be under it's influence."
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That's Harry talking, not one of the fae who knows. Check anytime the fae say it, as my point was about their grammar/syntax. Harry can still lie. And of course our ignorant little narrator doesn't have the same insight the sidhe have, he's often just wrong too.
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That's Harry talking, not one of the fae who knows. Check anytime the fae say it, as my point was about their grammar/syntax. Harry can still lie. And of course our ignorant little narrator doesn't have the same insight the sidhe have, he's often just wrong too.
However Mother Summer answers;
"That's why we use that word rather than a name, Sir Knight. Yes."
Splitting hairs aren't you? Or trying to at any rate, whether or not Harry is saying it,makes no difference in this case. In general I'd not argue with what you are saying, except in this case context is important.. As chapter 33 of Cold Days opens Mother Summer is taking Harry by the hand to the Outer Gates on page 225. First thing out of the gate Mother Summer asks Harry what he thinks will happen if he disobeys Mab's command? We know what her command was, to kill Maeve. Why? Because she is infected with Nemesis beyond curing. Harry says she'd get pissed if she doesn't and he could end up like Lloyd Slate. The Mother asks, "if she isn't?" I presume Mother Summer means if Maeve isn't infected and he kills Mab instead because she is the one infected.
Then Harry says that Maeve will end up with Mab's mantel. Mother Summer asks him if that would go well for him... Harry doesn't think so and mentions someone who likes to pull the wings off of flies. "Well, crap," were Harry's words, and Mother Summer agrees.. Then the conversation proceeds about "the adversary," Remember at this point Harry isn't sure that it isn't Mab who is infected, after all he did see her on ice back in Proven Guilty along with obviously infected Lea. This is one of the main topics of the whole book, Mab commanding Harry to kill Maeve because she is infected. Harry not sure what to do because he isn't sure it isn't Mab who is infected..
Now comes a bit of conversation that is a little choppy so can be confusing unless you follow it closely. Page 326
"Well, crap," I said.
"Quite so," said Mother Summer."And if you do heed Mab's command?'
Mother Summer just asked what Harry would think would happen if he killed Maeve as commanded?
Then the line gets a little confusing because Harry stops his sentence mid-thought to ask Mother Summer if he can say the adversary safely.
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if. . . the adversary? Can I say that safely?"
So if Maeve is infected, he kills her and someone else becomes Lady.. However if he listens to Maeve that it is Mab who is infected, but she isn't, and kills her.. Infected Maeve becomes Queen. However his thought is interrupted, "..." because he asked Mother Summer if he can use the term adversary safely?
She answers;
Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name Sir Knight."
Then in the next line, Harry has realized what would happen if an infected Maeve were to take over Mab's mantel.. He isn't talking about a general adversary in this sentence, and the context of the two page conversation between him and Mother Summer is not about a general adversary or enemy, it is about him being commanded by Mab to kill Maeve, and Harry's indecision because the thought crossed his mind that it could be Mab who is infected.. Both decisions have consequences one a little more serious than the other..
So Harry thinks it through.. What happens if he decides that Mab is the infected one and kills her and Maeve takes over the mantle of Queen? In other words, Maeve/the adversary, gets the Queen's mantle.
"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle. Two thirds of the Winter Court will be under it's influence."
It is pretty clear I think that in this case, "the adversary" is Nemesis and not some other general foe. Why Jim chose not to capitalize it? You will have to ask him, or the Beta readers, they are the ones I think, that correct these kinds of errors if they catch them.
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No. You're splitting hairs and as usual simply looking for a way to be "right" while completely not getting proper context in the conversation.
"However MS answers" ... By doing what exactly? Confirming EXACTLY what I just said, Nemesis is a name?
Also again completely either ignoring or missing my point. This is by and large why I told you to leave me alone. Look, Harry isn't a sidhe. As I EXPLAINED in my very first post which despite multiple explanations you have not grasped the key direct concept of butcher uses the proper syntax and grammar inherently found in fae to drop clues by way of how the say what they say
Your reply has been to repeatedly point out the no sequitur of Harry saying something. Harry's not the proper sidhe English perfect detail drop the clue bat by talking person, specifically. I don't know how else to explain this. But as usual arguing with you has been a completely pointless exercise in getting straw manned by non sequitur 🥴 for real. Use this example as the standard of WHY I don't wish to engage. And then do my psyche the very great gift of NOT. I'm already very close, being pushed off that edge by people who'd very much love to see it. Back off, I'm fighting for my Will to continue living and I've had enough gaslighting type conversation from my first marriage already thank ye.
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Read chapters 22 and 23 of Cold Days... It is very clear who,whom, or what Harry and Mother Summer are talking about... And no, no way, no how, it ain't anything but the adversary, and that adversary is Nemesis... Unless of course you want to argue that Maeve was infected with something else other than Nemesis.. We can do that, just what do you suggest of the many adversaries that Winter has, could be infecting either Mab or Maeve at the time of that conversation on the way to the Outer Gate?
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Would everyone please take a chill pill.
Courtesy is not that difficult, even in debate. Focus on "I/Me" statements. Do not utilize "YOU" with some antithetic you simply disagree with.
Please, don't make me stop the car.
Thank you,
Blaze, as Mod.
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Read chapters 22 and 23 of Cold Days... It is very clear who,whom, or what Harry and Mother Summer are talking about... And no, no way, no how, it ain't anything but the adversary, and that adversary is Nemesis... Unless of course you want to argue that Maeve was infected with something else other than Nemesis.. We can do that, just what do you suggest of the many adversaries that Winter has, could be infecting either Mab or Maeve at the time of that conversation on the way to the Outer Gate?
i honestly have nothing to respond to here except reread my above ideas and make sure that's what is being argued against.
Harry=no fae, can lie, is not known for being precisely correct on Symantecs
Fae=no can lie, known for being absolutely lawyerish in what they say and how.
Until what I'm arguing against at least starts following the thread of reason I'm actually stating, it's going to remain no sequitur. Anything Harry says or does was never put forth by me as anything to do with this theory. Which is based entirely on the fae wishing to be precise in their speech.
And no, no way, no how, it ain't anything but the adversary, and that adversary is Nemesis... Unless of course you want to argue that Maeve was infected with something else other than Nemesis.. We can do that, just what do you suggest of the many adversaries that Winter has, could be infecting either Mab or Maeve at the time of that conversation on the way to the Outer Gate?
none of this has any grounding in reality by anything said henceforth by me or any of the ideas I've presented here.
I don't wish to decode things I don't understand here in reality as it's very similar to gaslighting and other things I'm actively being subjected to under "sociology" and leadership techniques, and because misunderstanding is often the root cause of conflict.
I'd desire anyone who doesn't understand ideas put forth by me to either ask without being argumentative(which feeds back into the above loop... ENDLESSLY) or to ignore the ramblings of nostromo as just that. Ramblings to be understood only by those already living in the future. As far as I can tell, anyone who cannot or will not do A or B does so to chose C contempt over curiosity. Because I perceive questions that move goal posts or do not make Germain sense to what I've put forth as attacks born of contempt(something that you don't have to be me to see I think) not genuine curiosity to have a conversation. Believe me, I'm always curious about people's ideas, because their is much to learn. But as soon as all I hear is low-key hate? I wanna tune it out for my mental health.
I'd appreciate it immensely if everyone could be a lil more curious and a little less judging in contempt.