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Messages - raidem

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1141
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I don't remember Ramirez soulgazing Molly.
Yeah, I was about to ask about this.  I don't recall an occasion that they did.

1142
1. We have been told that Nicodemus has a very specific target in mind, ostensibly kept in the Labyrinth of Daedalus.  What is Nic trying to get his hands on and why?
Holy Grail (Chalice) and/or Denarian coins;
Location amended for updated hint: We now have a hint that prior to entering the NeverNevers highest security vault Nicodemus and friends must first break into Chicago's most secure vault.  I guess that it is the Federal Reserve Building in Chicago.  This would be the bank which Marcone utilizes to secure his belongings.  One must wonder what does he keep there.  Perhaps one item is Thorned Namshiel denarian aka Spiny Boy's coin.

2. Nicodemus apparently called in a marker from Mab to get Harry on the team.  Does he have a specific plan for using Harry or did Mab twist his request?  Which of Harry's capabilities will he admit to needing, and (given that this is Nicodemus after all), which abilities is he scheming for Harry to use?
Nicodemus either needs access to power from Winter and/or Soulfire in the attempt to break into the vault.  He may also need access to Demonreach island to access the underworld.  Nic hopes that Harry will kill some team members that have a Nemesis connection.  With Harry's brush with death, he is now a fulcrum for the underworld in addition to the Living.

3. Jim has mentioned that the book will be "Ocean's Eleven".  Who else did Nicodemus recruit?  How will they interact with Harry? Naagloshii, Shapeshifter, Denarians, Churchmice, BC Vampire.  Some will attempt to kill Harry.  One may assist him.  Most of the murder attempts will be in passing, trying to get Harry killed by protections on the vault, etc.

4. Harry's general method of operation is to call on his friends for help.  In this book, Harry is (initially) allowed one extra backup member on the crew.  Who will it be?  Which of Harry's other allies will "interfere" before the plot is over?  9/10/13 an interview was published that answers the first half of this question.  (edit:  Sort of)  Those that guessed what he said in that interview (at least partially) have been logged by the curators, but this will probably go down as some kind of extra credit or something, so keep Predictin!  (edit:  And things might not be binary simple...)-Serack
Well, we already know Harry is choosing Murphy.  I think Molly, Sarissa, Fix, Thomas, Mouse will assist Harry near the end.  Maybe we will even see Cat Sith again.

5. This is a Denarian book, so (unlike the last "end of the world" showdown), the Swords will almost certainly be present.  In fact, there have been various hints...  Which Sword wielders will appear in the next book and how will their interference/help affect the plot?
Sanya, Murphy, Daniel.  Team Heaven will win one with one of the Knights convincing a Host to give up their coin. 

6. Mab is apparently against Nicodemus succeeding in this heist.  In the Cold Days, we found that Mab had complex reasons for wanting Harry to kill Maeve.  What are Mab's reasons in this book?  Is it simple thwarting or is there something deeper?
Strike at Nicodemus for violating the Accords in Small Favor.  Assist Anduriel in getting rid of Nicodemus and/or obtaining another Host.

7. At the end of Cold Days, Harry needs to stay on the island to keep his growing headaches at bay.  The start of Skin Games implies that those headaches will need to be resolved by the end of the book.  Who or what is causing those headaches, and how will the whole thing get resolved by the end of the book?
A combination of primarily Lash but she is tainted with Outsider infection when she took the bullet for Harry.  Harry's continued use of Soulfire is empowering the Lash essence, helping it grow but also getting it to cause more harmful headaches et cetera.  She will find a home in a certain Nickle Harry finds placed somewhere in by Odin.

8.  One of the key components of the "Ocean's Eleven" movie is that there is a final twist/reveal.  Given that we've got Nicodemus, Harry, Mab, and potentially Hades (and who knows who else) all trying to get the better of each other, if there's one thing you can count on it's some sort of last minute quintuple-cross.  What will be the nature of the twist and how will it all fall out?
Harry fails.  Molly, Sarissa save the day.  Nicodemus will violate the agreement he made with Mab when she negotiated an explicit truce until such time that the mission is complete.  Mab will pitch in an assist.

9.  (Extra Credit) There are many WAG ("Wild A$$ Guess") theories on the boards, some crazier than others.  Write up to three WAG theories (or make up your own) you believe are correct that will be confirmed (or at least have evidence in favor of) in Skin Games.
1) Ferro banks at Hades vault.
2) Cerberus likes Harry (senses Mouse)
3) Underworld is using Harry to amputate Nemesis infection

10. (Extra Credit) This is that "free form" question where you can come up with anything else you think will be in this book.  Specific quotes Harry might say (will he actually quote Ocean's Eleven?  The movie will have come out already in Harry's timeline)? Tidbits about the White Council? The fate of Molly? Write down anything you want.  Note that whatever you write must be specifically mentioned or hinted at in Skin Games in order to be worth credit.
Merlin wants to carry out Doom on Harry, for Molly's abuse of the Laws.  WC concedes they can't bring Molly to justice but will try with Harry.  Molly and/or Mab might have a problem with that.
Harry promises Michael that he will save Molly from Winter Mantle at some point.

1143
I'll give Harry the benefit of the doubt for one or a few killings of the sidhe that happen in this manner.   But, if it occurs more often, I would say that then it becomes evidence that Harry is walking away from a Right Hand path.

1144
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It wasn't a mortal that infected Cat Sith. We have yet to see a proven instance of a mortal being infected.
We don't know exactly who infected Cat Sith.  Harry believes it to be Sharkface and He is probably right.  But, it is also sensible that Harry's orders could be made in such a way as to place him in an unintended bind when it comes to the enemy.

1145
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Not true. You cannot do all the judging you want based on my moral standards. Consistently applying moral relativism leads to absurdity.
I didn't argue that I would judge Harry according to your moral standards, rather I said my own.  And no, consistently applying moral relativism leads to the fact that we have a difference of opinion.

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And according to moral relativism I am correct. Obvious contradiction is obvious.
There is no 'correct.'  You are allowed your opinion, I am allowed mine.

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And good is subjective according to moral relativism. If either Harry or I believes that killing Sidhe is good (or at least "not bad") then killing Sidhe is good (or not "bad"). And mine is the opinion that matters.  ;)
This is true, but I do remind you that you were the one who argued that I could not judge Harry. 

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Well, while you totally can do so, it's a mite counter-productive from an analytical perspective because it kind of cuts off a whole range of enjoyable debates about the books to funnel them into one's own personal moral standards, given that arguing our own personal moral standards is not a thing this forum is for.
The key here is I can judge all I want.  To the point that it lessens my enjoyment, that is something I wouldn't "WANT."  Also, I am not arguing my personal moral standard.  I am defending my right to use my morals in deciding what type of guy Harry is.  And, defending my judgement of Harry's actions based on those morals.  The following is one of my statements regarding morality that I made.  As you can see it is far from being TT or an alarming argument of what my personal moral standards are.
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I hope Harry starts to feel more compassion for those he kills that are of the sidhe.  The wall between killing a sidhe and killing a mortal seems to be weakened each time he kills one of the Fae.
Of course, Mab is fine with it.  She is quite happy with her Monster in Traning.  Inez would be so proud.

Moral Relativism allows for equally 'right' points of view.  I can judge Harry according to my morality.  You are equally able to judge Harry according to yours.  Moral Relativism says nothing about who is "correct;" it simply states that there can be a difference of opinion regarding morality. 

1146
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Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong,
Moral absolutism states that there is an Absolute standard.

Moral relativism simply holds that there are disagreements about morals and that there is no "right or wrong."
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Moral relativism may be any of several philosophical positions concerned with the differences in moral judgments across different people and cultures. Descriptive moral relativism holds only that some people do in fact disagree about what is moral; meta-ethical moral relativism holds that in such disagreements, nobody is objectively right or wrong; and normative moral relativism holds that because nobody is right or wrong, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when we disagree about the morality of it.

1147
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Yet if moral relativism is true then you cannot judge Harry by your moral standards.
Not true, I can do all the judging I want based on my moral standards.  By believing in moral relativism, I must allow that there are others who would disagree with me.  Case in point, you disagree with me regarding Harry's morality.

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neither is there any reason for Harry to subscribe to your relative code of morality nor for you to hold him to that standard.
I disagree.  Harry wants to be a good guy.  Also, I am the person who is real; Harry isn't.  Therefore, mine is the opinion that matters.  And, as such, I will hold him to my moral standards whether you agree with that fact or not.


1148
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Also, in order for something to be morally wrong there must be an absolute objective standard that makes it wrong.

In this case, Mab is the standard for what is or is not morally wrong in regards to Winter Sidhe. According to her, Harry was completely justified.
We [or at least, I am not] aren't talking about Mab's morality, we are talking about Harry's.  As an outside viewer, I judge Harry's actions on the basis of \my\ morality.  Consequently, I find many of his actions to be morally questionable.  This action of killing the one sidhe isn't the most reprehensible thing Harry has done.  But, Harry's slide into immorality isn't going to begin with Harry slaughtering mortals; it will begin with how he mistreats non-mortals.

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Also, in order for something to be morally wrong there must be an absolute objective standard that makes it wrong.
There are quite a few different versions of morals where one doesn't need an absolute objective standard. Moral relativism is more in line with my thinking of morality.

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Descriptive moral relativism is merely the positive or descriptive position that there exist, in fact, fundamental disagreements about the right course of action even when the same facts hold true and the same consequences seem likely to arise.[2] It is the observation that different cultures have different moral standards.

1149
To have a view of Harry as this kind, generous, pure person is so far off the mark when compared to our, or at the least, my morality.  When I explain Harry and the Dresden Files to a non-reader, it becomes abundantly clear that Harry is so far across the moral line.  It doesn't become apparent to Harry until after Changes, that he has made some really bad calls.  The Dresdenverse has a very skewed morality and I have to remind myself of this when reading it.  It is fiction.  I don't have to base my morality on the morality that I find within the Dresdenverse.  If I did, I would be sorely Lost.

1150
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From a moral perspective killing is "always" wrong, so even the first one was morally questionable.
Not true.  This largely depends on whose morality we are talking about.

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Ah, sorry raidem, but we are talking about murder.  Murder is a legal term, not a moral one.
And in the view of Winter, Mab doesn't consider murder to be a crime.  She has two laws: neither of which prohibits murder.  Her law is such that one may not speak to her without first obtaining permission and secondly, one must not draw blood. 

And, there is no real life law that makes killing sidhe a crime.  For one, sidhe don't exist in our world. Also, there is no equating killing of an animal other than human to be a crime of murder.

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Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
  Morality is that which shapes what is lawful and what isn't.

1151
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Does this mean Harry is getting colder and more ruthless? Yep, Mab in general is happy with Harry’s development, even if she might have preferred not losing the Sidhe Lord.

This is the aspect that I am arguing.  And I would agree with this too:
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C) Harry's never claimed to be completely morally correct guy, or a non-hypocrite.
Harry purposely intended Susan to transform into a RC vampire so that he could "sacrifice" her and kill off the Red Court Vampires.  This was a very cold act and he suffers from it.

1152
Did you see the link that I included to where I talked about it under the "apprentices" thread.

1153
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I would argue that the second was sanctioned by Mab as well, by the fact that she then danced with Harry.  In Mab's realm Power is the law.  Harry was establishing where he was on the Power scale, and Mab approved of it.
The fact that something may or may not be sanctioned by Mab doesn't absolve Harry from right or wrong in the matter.  I suspect Mab would quite approve of a Harry that becomes a monster. 

1154
We aren't arguing that Harry committed a crime.  We are arguing that from a human morality viewpoint, what he did was wrong.  Harry is all concerned about himself going bad.  It will start with him abusing the sidhe and then from there get worse. 

I have wondered if perhaps Harry's instructions to Cat Sith or Harry's new rule led to Cat Sith being susceptible to a mortal who infects him.

1155
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And nobody calls him out on it.
I called him out on it.  Let me find that post. 

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Morally it is still wrong to kill a Sidhe unless you have very good reasons. They are intelligent living beings and not all of them are evil.

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I hope Harry starts to feel more compassion for those he kills that are of the sidhe.  The wall between killing a sidhe and killing a mortal seems to be weakened each time he kills one of the Fae.
Of course, Mab is fine with it.  She is quite happy with her Monster in Traning.  Inez would be so proud.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39549.msg1947806.html#msg1947806

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