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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 14, 2020, 01:54:47 AM
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Back in Turn Coat, Harry realized that Peabody had a partner with him on Demonreach Island, someone who was never identified. Harry didn't even tell Ebenezer he knew this for a fact. Ebenezer thought it was just speculation on Harry's part. So, we know it can't be Ebenezer, LTW, Ancient Mai or any of the older wardens who were with them. As possible suspects who are at the talks that leaves Martha Liberty, Cristos and the younger wardens.
We know next to nothing about Martha Liberty so there's nothing that really points to her. She once said of Harry to Ebenezer, "You know what he was meant to be?" That's such a vague comment it doesn't mean anything in this context. Cristos looks more like a dupe than a serious player, so unless he's just playing stupid I don't think it's him. More important, Ebenezer warned Harry that he is likely to be betrayed by someone he trusts and that sure isn't Gregori Cristos. Of course, it might be argued that Ebenezer unwittingly betrayed Harry by the way he acted on the dock, but he wasn't the person who was with Peabody. (Also, it would kill my WAG; make that educated guess, so it totally can't be Eb.) That leaves the younger wardens, Harry's closest friends on the White Council and the members who actually look up to Harry. (or at least they used to)
Now it's possible that in Battle Ground some White Council reinforcements might arrive, but I can't think of any of them that Harry particularly trusts. I'm guessing that Rashid will remain at the Outer Gates with Mab and Harry doesn't trust the Merlin or Ancient Mai; in fact, Harry would be looking for a sucker punch of some kind from Arthur Langtry. I know I left out Anastasia Luccio, but after one of the wardens (I think it was Chandler) said that Luccio had ordered them to keep an eye on Harry, I don't think Harry would be too trusting of her either. Plus, the mind whammy she had been under would always be in the back of Harry's mind.
So, if the second traitor is at the Peace Talks I'm guessing it is one of the young wardens. The natural suspect is Carlos Ramirez. He's the one we know best and the one that Harry probably trusts, or trusted, the most. Actually, Harry might be angry with Ramirez and company, but he probably still believes that they're all good guys, even if they don't particularly trust Harry at the moment. Carlos told Harry that he voted to retain him in the White Council, which is exactly what someone who wanted to keep or regain Harry's trust would say. We also know that Carlos is suffering, I'll just call it PTSD, after his near deadly encounter with Molly. However, that incident occurred long after the events on Demonreach. It's not something we can use to tie him to Peabody.
So my guess is that Carlos Ramirez is a red herring and the real traitor is Warden Chandler. He's the warden who went most out of his way to play good cop when the wardens stopped Harry outside the Raith compound. Of the younger wardens, he's the one who is most trusted by the Senior Council and probably the one most trusted by Captain Luccio, because she's his boss and probably the person who assigned him to guard duty outside the Edinburgh complex. A traitor wouldn't want to be working a territory in the field (unless it's a key area) if they could avoid it, they would do everything they could to put themselves near the seat of power and that fits Chandler, perfectly. Finally, Chandler is also the warden who didn't get himself locked up during the events in Changes. Exactly what a smart spy would do.
I'm discounting Warden's Wild Bill and Yoshimo because we don't know very much about them. We've seen Harry talk to Wild Bill on the phone and I think Yoshimo made an appearance in Dead Beat, and both wardens were in one of the short stories. (War Cry, I believe.) We haven't seen either of them build up any degree of trust with Harry. Now I'm going to have to go back and reread every conversation Harry has had with Chandler. If there are any clues they're going to be really minor ones, but I won't be surprised if there aren't any. Anyway that's my guess, what do you think?
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I am afraid I agree, he is an odd choice for field work. Chandler is Cowl.
Chandler wasn’t with the other four wardens in Dead Beat, the Senior Council were all accounted for on the island in Turncoat, Gregory Christos is too obvious, so the only one not accounted for in the White Council delegation who could act as an inside man is Chandler.
Why Cowl? Because we have only seen three members of the Black Council, one is dead and one is a woman, and if the Black Council are going to be unearthed, it’s a bit late to add someone to the cast. In addition his cane is purely ornamental (Harry remarks on it) not a working staff like Carlos cane. Cowl doesn’t need a Staff or any other foci.
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Interesting. I was thinking of Chandler, too. I will have to search the books for him. He is the one Harry calls "Steed", isn't he? Is Dead Beat the first book, where he is present?
But I don't think, he is Cowl. For him I agree with another theory. But this is not the place for that.
First I was thinking of Ramirez, too. Simply because I like him, Harry likes him, and I would be sad, if he was the traitor. I didn't think any further. I just thought of people that would hurt the most.
But Chandler would be the one Harry wouldn't think of at first.
Chandler is in a very good position to sow distrust among the council. He appears calm and trustworthy and polite. People listen to what he has to say.
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It’s not Ramirez, they need a virgin for the grail quest, and there isn’t a more obvious candidate than Ramirez.
Besides if he was evil, he would have lost his virginity at 13.
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The interesting thing about Peabody's partner in Turn Coat is that while Peabody took the Way from Edinburgh to Chicago, his partner didn't. (Or he would have appeared in the photos Harry's PI took.)
That would seem to rule out Chandler.
I suppose I'd suggest that none of the traitors would want to be at the Peace Talks. Cowl and the rest will instead be calling up Outsiders to support the fomor attack. (Or to try to take out Eb ahead of time...)
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Unless being ultra cautious he took another way to Chicago, which came out elsewhere (which Cowl could do) or involved a longer, riskier journey. Peabody was sloppy and Harry caught him out. They certainly didn’t travel together, but rendezvoused in Chicago. The partner was able to force a way to Demonreach (island defences not active at that time) a Cowl speciality.
Chandler not ruled out. By the way The Avengers included an episode entitled “Warlock” in its second season. It involved black magic and mind control.
Cowl knew about Little Chicago as he sought to attack Harry through it, when Harry spied on him, that is a potential for a trap as I doubt he ever told the Wardens about it, even Luccio. So if any warden knows about it, or considers it’s use in the forthcoming battle, then they are Cowl.
Reviewing WOJ he has said Little Chicago is gone. The existence of the Lab may contradict that, but Harry knows it isn’t there now, but Cowl wouldn’t.
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Cowl knew about Little Chicago as he sought to attack Harry through it, when Harry spied on him
I'm not sure Cowl knew about Little Chicago specifically; Harry says that Cowl's attack would have killed him without LC, and that LC was made as a safety measure for that kind of magic. So I think that implies that the "spying" spell is possible without a LC-type item.
Reviewing WOJ he has said Little Chicago is gone. The existence of the Lab may contradict that
I don't think it's contradictory; that WoJ said Little Chicago was relatively fragile. And fire tends to destroy magical constructs/disrupt magical energies.
The room itself surviving doesn't mean that everything in it did. (I mean, a basement room wouldn't generally be completely destroyed by a fire/collapse of the building above it, would it? Or am I way off base here?)
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The Lab Trapdoor survived, scorched but intact, but Jim may just be playing with our heads, he is a cruel and capricious God, who lives on the fans suffering, and enjoying the delay between PT and BG (the real reason for the split), laughing at our absurd fan theories in a maniacal fashion, having carefully placed red herrings for us to seize upon and devour.
But the point is whether or not it survived it still has the potential to be to be a plot point, which is the cruellest option, setting the fans up for its survival, only to dash them again as part of the narrative.
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The Lab Trapdoor survived, scorched but intact, but Jim may just be playing with our heads, he is a cruel and capricious God, who lives on the fans suffering, and enjoying the delay between PT and BG (the real reason for the split), laughing at our absurd fan theories in a maniacal fashion, having carefully placed red herrings for us to seize upon and devour.
But the point is whether or not it survived it still has the potential to be to be a plot point, which is the cruellest option, setting the fans up for its survival, only to dash them again as part of the narrative.
Little Chicago has been moved to the attic, Toot and his army have taken up residence in it.
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Finally, Chandler is also the warden who didn't get himself locked up during the events in Changes. Exactly what a smart spy would do.
Given that Jim has never revisited the events of Changes period we don't know anything about Warden Headquarters, period. Did the White Council suddenly sing Kumbaya and forgive everyone. If I were going to wager I would guess Ramirez for the backstab. Reasoning, if Molly is a monster then Harry must be. This would align with Crazy Eb pretty well.
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Given that Jim has never revisited the events of Changes period we don't know anything about Warden Headquarters, period. Did the White Council suddenly sing Kumbaya and forgive everyone. If I were going to wager I would guess Ramirez for the backstab. Reasoning, if Molly is a monster then Harry must be. This would align with Crazy Eb pretty well.
It would account for the way Harry was treated, that is for sure, which is a huge change from the way at least the younger Wardens looked to Harry in Turn Coat.
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Unless being ultra cautious he took another way to Chicago, which came out elsewhere (which Cowl could do) or involved a longer, riskier journey. Peabody was sloppy and Harry caught him out. They certainly didn’t travel together, but rendezvoused in Chicago. The partner was able to force a way to Demonreach (island defences not active at that time) a Cowl speciality.
Chandler not ruled out. By the way The Avengers included an episode entitled “Warlock” in its second season. It involved black magic and mind control.
Cowl knew about Little Chicago as he sought to attack Harry through it, when Harry spied on him, that is a potential for a trap as I doubt he ever told the Wardens about it, even Luccio. So if any warden knows about it, or considers it’s use in the forthcoming battle, then they are Cowl.
Reviewing WOJ he has said Little Chicago is gone. The existence of the Lab may contradict that, but Harry knows it isn’t there now, but Cowl wouldn’t.
That other person was Maeve. She brought the spiders. They were fairy creatures from winter and Maeve was on the outsiders team at the time, had a motive to keep her involvement secret and Cowl would have brought ghouls.
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That other person was Maeve. She brought the spiders. They were fairy creatures from winter and Maeve was on the outsiders team at the time, had a motive to keep her involvement secret and Cowl would have brought ghouls.
Oh. Good call. That seems very plausible. A bit surprising that she'd be willing to go out on a limb to try to defend Peabody (she didn't seem like any kind of a team player), but maybe she was hoping to take out Harry. And she definitely wouldn't have needed to go through Chicago to get to Demonreach.
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But that leaves a dangling mystery.
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That other person was Maeve. She brought the spiders. They were fairy creatures from winter and Maeve was on the outsiders team at the time, had a motive to keep her involvement secret and Cowl would have brought ghouls.
The only problem I have with it being Maeve is there are no consequences if it was her. The only exception would be a time travel episode where Harry goes back to that specific time and takes actions or counter actions that somehow involve Maeve, without interfering with her joining Peabody. Plus, I think it's far more likely Harry goes back to events of Proven Guilty. On top of all that, ClintACK is correct in pointing out that Maeve wasn't much of a team player. I don't she'd give a damn about helping a mortal wizard, even if he was her ally. I think the only way Maeve would have teamed up with Peabody on Demonreach would have been if she had owed him a favor, and a pretty sizable favor at that.
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She would kill him herself, to avoid discovery.
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The only problem I have with it being Maeve is there are no consequences if it was her. The only exception would be a time travel episode where Harry goes back to that specific time and takes actions or counter actions that somehow involve Maeve, without interfering with her joining Peabody. Plus, I think it's far more likely Harry goes back to events of Proven Guilty. On top of all that, ClintACK is correct in pointing out that Maeve wasn't much of a team player. I don't she'd give a damn about helping a mortal wizard, even if he was her ally. I think the only way Maeve would have teamed up with Peabody on Demonreach would have been if she had owed him a favor, and a pretty sizable favor at that.
Maeve was infected so the only thing needed for her to be there was Nemesis putting enough effort into it to do so. Everything as part of the great plan to solve her mommy issues by destroying reality as it is.
And protecting Peabody was important for Nemesis. Having him in place was a huge advantage for the reds and helped destabilize everything.
And messing up Harry was a bonus. Just by being there and let loose a few monsters. It has no downside for her. She had fun.
Strictly speaking Maeve does not even has to know why she did it, just that it seemed a good idea at the time.
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The interesting thing about Peabody's partner in Turn Coat is that while Peabody took the Way from Edinburgh to Chicago, his partner didn't. (Or he would have appeared in the photos Harry's PI took.)
That would seem to rule out Chandler.
Peabody had to go to Chicago to find the witness. Harry got lucky that Luccio was Peabody's suspect for the witness.
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The room itself surviving doesn't mean that everything in it did. (I mean, a basement room wouldn't generally be completely destroyed by a fire/collapse of the building above it, would it? Or am I way off base here?)
The trapdoor survived with just scorches on it, but Harry thinks the floor caved in over the room and the stuff was burned/melted. He can see marks on the floor where his lab stuff *was* and he can also see the summoning circle in the floor. I think that people have been acting like the room was untouched by the fire, but it wasn't. Aren't there somewhat contradictory WOJ's on Little Chicago? One time he said it was melted into a slab and another time he was more cagey and did one of his typical "Nothing could have survived all that heat" lines.
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Because of this thread I'm now fully on board with Chandler. I just reread/re-listened to turn coat. It was pointed out that the spiders were in the way to Edinburgh to send as a warning for Peabody? What if they were there to actually kill someone, and Chandler who greeted Harry... was actually the person who gave Peabody a heads up. After all Peabody just happens to run into Harry with his hand covered in ink insisting there is something Harry needs to sign.
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Yeah, the Chandler theory seems very convincing.
My one problem with it is that there's a WoJ that he's watched pretty closely due to the kind of magic he uses, and that's why he's in the position he's in. So it might be hard for him to be a "Black Council"/Circle agent.
But if he mostly passed information and didn't do any overt black magic, until PT (summoning the Cornerhounds?) because he knew through the Circle that Things Were Getting Real (Ethniu and all)... That might work.
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His gift is chronomancy.
Now, how can one use chronomancy acceptably given the laws?
I suppose passive observation would be allowed, be very useful for a Warden to be able to perceive the near-immediate future and the past as it happened.
Does that change any of the scenes with Chandler?
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His gift is chronomancy.
Now, how can one use chronomancy acceptably given the laws?
I suppose passive observation would be allowed, be very useful for a Warden to be able to perceive the near-immediate future and the past as it happened.
Does that change any of the scenes with Chandler?
Not so much the specific conversations, but it suggests that Chandler might have detected that someone ran into the giant spiders in the nevernever and survived them and, or Chandler could have seen that Harry would soon arrive at Edinburgh. He might have been able to pass this information on to Peabody. Ebenezer and Harry were able to communicate with speaking stones (I think that's what they were called) in Changes. There are probably other covert communication methods used by wizards. Plus, we don't know how long Chandler had been on guard duty when Harry arrived. If Chandler was inside the Edinburgh complex when he saw past and, or future events with Harry playing out, he could have spoken directly to Peabody before going out to take up position to be able to meet Harry.
Actually, after rereading the conversation between Harry and Chandler in Turn Coat, Chandler knew where all the Senior Council members were inside the complex. Now it could be that Chandler knew what each member's focus was on; be it direct investigation of La Fortier's murder or waiting with a strike team for news about Morgan and so on, but it suggests; though it does not prove, that Warden Chandler had been inside the complex quite recently and that explains his knowledge of where the various Senior Council members could be found. It's a minor point, but it would mean that Chandler was easily able to communicate with Peabody before going out to meet Harry.
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KurtinStGeorge
Actually, after rereading the conversation between Harry and Chandler in Turn Coat, Chandler knew where all the Senior Council members were inside the complex. Now it could be that Chandler knew what each member's focus was on; be it direct investigation of La Fortier's murder or waiting with a strike team for news about Morgan and so on, but it suggests; though it does not prove, that Warden Chandler had been inside the complex quite recently and that explains his knowledge of where the various Senior Council members could be found. It's a minor point, but it would mean that Chandler was easily able to communicate with Peabody before going out to meet Harry.
Good point.
I was thinking, with his chromomancy he would also know when to be back in time at his post when someone comes by, when he leaves for errands like for example being with Peabody on Demonreach.
So it would appear that he never left his post.
Maybe the spiders were just a delaying tactic, so that he would have more time to hurry back, when someone comes from the nevernever side.
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KurtinStGeorgeGood point.
I was thinking, with his chromomancy he would also know when to be back in time at his post when someone comes by, when he leaves for errands like for example being with Peabody on Demonreach.
So it would appear that he never left his post.
Maybe the spiders were just a delaying tactic, so that he would have more time to hurry back, when someone comes from the nevernever side.
His future sight is pretty unreliable thanks to free will IIRC.
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His future sight is pretty unreliable thanks to free will IIRC.
That would mean, he could see someone coming as soon as the person has decided to come. The decision is not made spontaneously like "oh, look, there is a way, I think I will go to Edinburgh now", so he has enough time to get back, in theory.
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Yeah. I mean, someone could always change their mind later; Dresdenverse future sight isn't perfect.
But it does seem to be usable, at least if you're really good at it*; the Gatekeeper seems to be able to get some benefit from it.
Probably, if you can look at multiple possible futures, you can see how much of a risk it is before you decide to act on the information.
*It seems to come with problematic side effects for weak talents, like those with Cassandra's Tears, or Abby's ability to look a few seconds into the future in WN.