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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: toodeep on December 20, 2019, 10:36:16 PM
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We all know that becoming the winter knight has:
1. Increased Harry's physical strength and speed, including probably increased reflexes. Butters posits that this isn't necessarily magical (just the removal of normal limitors)
2. Additional magical juice. Not sure if Harry can actually pull much more of normal magic, but he seems to be able to pull cold magic more easily in addition to his normal magic
3. Increased healing. Not sure if this is true, but Harry seems to believe that the winter mantle helps with healing
4. Innate balance on ice, ability to work with/break ice, and apparently a resistance to cold
We've seen indications it can do additional things like
A. When attacking an actual outsider, Harry experienced a innate winter response of coating his hands with ice-blades that helped hurt the outsider. This seems to indicate that winter magic might be institutionally inclined to be more effective against outsiders.
And other things seem possible
B. We've seen that Toot appears to be able to at least speak any language. Might Harry be able to tap into that cool ability?
C. Additional synergies if he ever uses the Blackstaff considering its possible winter origins.
D. It sounds like most knights die by violence. Might it make him as longer lived or otherwise slow aging compared even to most wizards?
Any others?
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He seems to have the ability to know on a large scale either when Winter magic or just when Mab is affecting things vs. when it's just normal stuff. In Skin Game, he knows instinctively that the snowstorm isn't Mab, it's just regular Chicago weather.
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He also had instinctive predatory abilities, like those of a wolf, when fighting Fix and against Maeve.
We also know that his power is tied to the power of the Queens, which gives a unique advantage against them. Not a lot, but not nothing either (which is most beings). Mab cannot defend against her own power, it seems.
A massive resistance to regular pain and fatigue...although again as Butter's points out this might be more to do with removing natural limits in the brain.
Harry has often described that he adds "winter" to his magic missile attack ("something Mab gave him") that he often describes as part of his best shot.
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Making oversized snow angels? ::) Happy Holidays! ;D
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Making oversized snow angels? ::) Happy Holidays! ;D
Well... he DOES have Winter magic, and Soulfire... So...
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We also know that his power is tied to the power of the Queens, which gives a unique advantage against them. Not a lot, but not nothing either (which is most beings). Mab cannot defend against her own power, it seems.
Do we know this? My recollection is that the only place we hear this from is Maeve in Cold Days, when she's on her lying spree. Given that, and given that she would quite enjoy getting Harry killed by convincing her to attack Mab, I wouldn't consider her a reliable source.
Otoh, I may be misremembering. Do we ever hear this from anyone else?
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3. Increased healing. Not sure if this is true, but Harry seems to believe that the winter mantle helps with healing
He seemed to be basing that on empirical evidence that his recovery from injuries during Mab's rehab / training sessions was markedly faster than normal.
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Do we know this? My recollection is that the only place we hear this from is Maeve in Cold Days, when she's on her lying spree. Given that, and given that she would quite enjoy getting Harry killed by convincing her to attack Mab, I wouldn't consider her a reliable source.
Otoh, I may be misremembering. Do we ever hear this from anyone else?
Lily actually confirms this, and she would know, she wouldn't need Maeve to tell her. This would be instinctual and perhaps also trained knowledge, because she did spend almost a decade training with Titania.
But also - Occam's razor. It makes sense. Although I would say the crucially left out piece of information is the Winter Knight's mortal nature in combination with Winter's power is what makes him truly dangerous. He can choose to kill her. Which is much more than her other vassals.
Also Maeve didn't need to lie. If Dresden died trying to end Mab she wouldn't become Queen, which was one of her main objectives. Maeve could have killed Harry much earlier if her intention was that. But she didn't. She truly wanted Mab dead, she hated Mab most of all.
And it is foreshadowing how Mab will die. If that wasn't obvious.
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He seemed to be basing that on empirical evidence that his recovery from injuries during Mab's rehab / training sessions was markedly faster than normal.
Didn't he state that Mab explained it to him, or am I remembering something that didn't happen? I think it was in Cold Days after Andy shredded his back when someone was giving him first aid.
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Didn't he state that Mab explained it to him, or am I remembering something that didn't happen? I think it was in Cold Days after Andy shredded his back when someone was giving him first aid.
I'm not sure if it was the damage from Andi or Lacuna's hit squad, but he told Molly some moderately bad cuts would heal themselves in a few days at the rate he was running then.
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WoJ states that wizard-longevity is a function of them doing magic. The more magic they do, and the more powerful it is, the longer they live. Charity won't have any extended lifespan, because she stopped and let her magic wither away.
Butters theorizes (and there seems to be pretty decent evidence for the argument) that the main physical benefit to the WK-mantle -- the strength & speed &c -- is just to take off all the inbuilt "governors" and "safeties" that let an organism live long-term, letting the WK act full-time as if they were on an massive adrenaline-spike, without regard to pain or injury.
Wizard healing is, I think, a related thing to wizard longevity.
What if the main magical benefit is a similar "governor off" effect, letting the WK (if a wizard) do more & stronger magic... leading to a boost in the longevity AND the healing?
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If Butters is even mostly right, then it's my belief that the mantle has been retconned big time both from Cold Days and Summer Knight.
As to toodeep's point D, I think the answer to that has more to do with the job description than anything else.
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Well, in the Paranet Papers, when talking about a suspected Winter Knight, it says:
people have said that he is perpetually surrounded by a cold, misty fog, and that he brings a chill into the room when he enters and is never affected by even the most bitterly cold winter wind. Some say his piercing stare can freeze a man’s heart, and in more than a metaphorical way. If these peasants’ tales can be taken to have even a grain of truth to them, he displays many
qualities of Winter Knights past...
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If Butters is even mostly right, then it's my belief that the mantle has been retconned big time both from Cold Days and Summer Knight.
As to toodeep's point D, I think the answer to that has more to do with the job description than anything else.
Much like the knights of the cross the amount of power the winter knight wields is not always the same. If Mab wants it Harry can have more power and can even be shielded from the mantles influence to a certain extend as was shown in Changes.
Slate wasnot that powerful but he was one of Maeves throw away knights so that was to be expected.
The main thing the mantle offers is power. Spiritual power with a winter nature. Too much of it and he would probably become winter sidhe and not mortal so the power is limited. The extra tricks Butters speculates about are probably tricks to get the most out of it.
Harry is a wizard so he has his own spiritual power and good ideas how to use both his mantle and his own power. The more he uses the more he heals the further he can drive his own body ignoring limits. A winter knight who is also a wizard can do so much more.
In cold days Harry lets go and he has to struggle to keep his identity. In some aspects that looks like a more powerful knight than in Skin Game when Harry has much better control of himself.
But actually skin game Harry is a more dangerous opponent.
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Much like the knights of the cross the amount of power the winter knight wields is not always the same. If Mab wants it Harry can have more power and can even be shielded from the mantles influence to a certain extend as was shown in Changes.
Slate wasnot that powerful but he was one of Maeves throw away knights so that was to be expected.
The main thing the mantle offers is power. Spiritual power with a winter nature. Too much of it and he would probably become winter sidhe and not mortal so the power is limited. The extra tricks Butters speculates about are probably tricks to get the most out of it.
Harry is a wizard so he has his own spiritual power and good ideas how to use both his mantle and his own power. The more he uses the more he heals the further he can drive his own body ignoring limits. A winter knight who is also a wizard can do so much more.
In cold days Harry lets go and he has to struggle to keep his identity. In some aspects that looks like a more powerful knight than in Skin Game when Harry has much better control of himself.
But actually skin game Harry is a more dangerous opponent.
As I was re-listening to Cold Days, I was getting annoyed with Harry always whining about how he was cursed to go bad because of the Winter Knight mantle. He has been dealing with temptation to go dark for his whole adolescent and adult life as a wizard. The difference betweeen vanilla human and wizard is probably an order of magnitude greater than that between wizard and winter knight. Perfectly fine for Harry to worry about going bad... that trait probably helped him avoid going dark as a wizard, but it was getting annoying that he couldn't see that he has the ability to avoid going dark.
Tack on being the Warden of Demonreach and knowing the Darkhallow and, far more importantly (because the temptation was greater since the shadow was living in his head) avoiding taking up Lasciel's coin, and he really should have a little more confidence in his ability to write his own future and not succumb to temptation.
I wonder if Jim is telling us something here. Harry has been getting lectures from Uriel about the importance of free will. Maybe Harry will finally get that confidence in himself someday and actually take up Lasciel's coin, but be the master of the coin, much like Nicodimus is the master of Anduriel.
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I wonder if Jim is telling us something here. Harry has been getting lectures from Uriel about the importance of free will. Maybe Harry will finally get that confidence in himself someday and actually take up Lasciel's coin, but be the master of the coin, much like Nicodimus is the master of Anduriel.
Don't see that happening, and for the record, Nic isn't the master, he just thinks he is.
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I'd like to add that Mab smashed Harry's head into an elevator hard enough to leave a Harry's Head-Shaped dent in it, and Harry walked away without a problem.
Blows to the head like that are pretty damn dangerous. I've seen my share of concussions over the years, and that's the exact kind of hit that should have caused one (sudden, a hit for which Harry could not brace, and with likely much more than the 60 g's typically cited as the approximate amount of force to cause a concussion on impact). Plus all of that force was focused on Harry's head. The elevator denting robbed the hit of some of its force, but not enough for Harry to just... get up and walk away a minute later.
From that one example, I hypothesize that either:
1. Harry did get a concussion and he simply didn't notice it (that happens; one guy in my old HEMA group didn't realize he had a concussion until a couple days later) until some time after Skin Game;
2. Harry got a concussion, but the Winter Mantle suppressed the typical symptoms immediately (dizziness, memory loss, etc.) and it accelerated the healing process so much that he recovered quickly, before the suppression stopped working;
3. Harry was not hit hard enough to get a concussion;
4. The Winter Mantle has some kind of... durability enhancement ability, so Harry can withstand more punishment. Meaning he actually IS more resistant to injury, not just the pain that comes with it.
5. Harry has been hit on the head so many times that this new concussion just blended into the background of his old head injuries (if he wasn't a wizard, he'd be a poster child for CTE).
I think two and four are most likely.
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Don't see that happening, and for the record, Nic isn't the master, he just thinks he is.
You may be correct, but saying it is so doesn't mean it is. Unless there is a WOJ to that effect, I prefer to not just assume.
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You may be correct, but saying it is so doesn't mean it is. Unless there is a WOJ to that effect, I prefer to not just assume.
Jim does not have to say it explicitly. It is shown in the story. He is damned as long as he keeps the thing and a whole order of knights can not save him from it.
You can of course trust the alternative facts brought to you by the fallen but I would't advice it. They lie.
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You may be correct, but saying it is so doesn't mean it is. Unless there is a WOJ to that effect, I prefer to not just assume.
. It's pretty clear in the scene near the end of Skin Game. Harry and Michael are about to fight Nic. You see their arguments begin to sway him the regrets & doubt... And then you see the Pride sweep in, and lock him onto his path... Pride, of course, being the defining sin of the Fall, and a key recurring element of Nic's as he has faced Harry through the years.
Nic is given so much free rein because he has bought in to Anduriel's agenda as his own: Nic does the stuff Anduriel wants, on his own initiative; Anduriel never needs to use the Big Stick, because bunny-Nic is happily eating the carrot out of his hand...
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. It's pretty clear in the scene near the end of Skin Game. Harry and Michael are about to fight Nic. You see their arguments begin to sway him the regrets & doubt... And then you see the Pride sweep in, and lock him onto his path... Pride, of course, being the defining sin of the Fall, and a key recurring element of Nic's as he has faced Harry through the years.
Nic is given so much free rein because he has bought in to Anduriel's agenda as his own: Nic does the stuff Anduriel wants, on his own initiative; Anduriel never needs to use the Big Stick, because bunny-Nic is happily eating the carrot out of his hand...
Exactly, that is the trap that Lasciel tried to set for Harry saying that he'd be "partners" with her like Nic and Anduriel and not her slave, but Harry didn't fall for it.. Or perhaps more to the point after that soul gaze the first time he met up with the Denarians back in Death Masks, he didn't buy the idea that any partnership with one of the Fallen could be equal and free.
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. It's pretty clear in the scene near the end of Skin Game. Harry and Michael are about to fight Nic. You see their arguments begin to sway him the regrets & doubt... And then you see the Pride sweep in, and lock him onto his path... Pride, of course, being the defining sin of the Fall, and a key recurring element of Nic's as he has faced Harry through the years.
Nic is given so much free rein because he has bought in to Anduriel's agenda as his own: Nic does the stuff Anduriel wants, on his own initiative; Anduriel never needs to use the Big Stick, because bunny-Nic is happily eating the carrot out of his hand...
I can buy that.
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both Lloyd Slate and Fix did not seem to be wizards.
So they could probably not do as much with the mantles as a wizard or sorcerer can.
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both Lloyd Slate and Fix did not seem to be wizards.
So they could probably not do as much with the mantles as a wizard or sorcerer can.
Mab would not have put all that effort into recruiting Harry if every bloke on the street would do.
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Mab would not have put all that effort into recruiting Harry if every bloke on the street would do.
Exactly, and Slate is proof enough of that. A mere bloke is malleable, the job and an insane Lady shapes him and he becomes a mere killer which is counter productive. Where as it is Harry that does the shaping, and though capable of killing he is no killer and is of use to Mab.
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I'd like to add that Mab smashed Harry's head into an elevator hard enough to leave a Harry's Head-Shaped dent in it, and Harry walked away without a problem....
Oh, good point. There was also when the Ick kicked him and he indicated he should have been well and thoroughly smooshed, and he wasn't, so the winter knight must add a degree of armor/internal protection beyond just pain ignoring and healing. Additionally, I would add looking back on the fight with the Ick and others that he is probably faster than normal humans as well. I know that with the "limitors" off he is stronger than most humans, but that doesn't necessarily give speed - speed is a combination of mental and physical reaction times, not just physical, and yet he seems to be faster than previously (i.e. he could outrun Susan who was supernaturally strong/fast) and had the mental reaction speed to handle the increased physical reaction improvement without even noticing.
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Mab would not have put all that effort into recruiting Harry if every bloke on the street would do.
Mab went through the trouble because Harry has numerous abilities/advantages that tie directly into dealing with what is coming. Beyond a normal winter knight, he has:
1. Wizard skills
2. soulfire
3. starborne
4. An growing understanding of the importance of free will
He is much more effective when he uses his own will, rather than the directives of the mantle (as seen when he overruled the mantle on how to fight Fix). Previous knights pretty much only had the power of the mantle to go on, and most didn't realize the power just pure human nature could bring to the role.
Interestingly, we've seen Fix throw fire at the very least, and possibly do other "magic" things, so the mantle does bring at least a degree of its own magic to the bearer even when they aren't a wizard. I think that is why Harry's "infringa" comes either from a different pool of magical energy than his wizard magic, or comes from the same pool but is deeply discounted. Not sure which.
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Mab went through the trouble because Harry has numerous abilities/advantages that tie directly into dealing with what is coming. Beyond a normal winter knight, he has:
1. Wizard skills
2. soulfire
3. starborne
4. An growing understanding of the importance of free will
He is much more effective when he uses his own will, rather than the directives of the mantle (as seen when he overruled the mantle on how to fight Fix). Previous knights pretty much only had the power of the mantle to go on, and most didn't realize the power just pure human nature could bring to the role.
Interestingly, we've seen Fix throw fire at the very least, and possibly do other "magic" things, so the mantle does bring at least a degree of its own magic to the bearer even when they aren't a wizard. I think that is why Harry's "infringa" comes either from a different pool of magical energy than his wizard magic, or comes from the same pool but is deeply discounted. Not sure which.
There are three things here. Power, talent and training. If you add a lot of power you have to be able to do some things with a little talent and some training. Especially since the power gives you the confidence to try it and the belief you can succeed.
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Slate almost takes Harry in Summer Knight. And in the cases we've seen, it isn't a magic slug fest, since Harry can't use lethal magic against humans. While the Winter Knights and Summer Knights prior to Harry were unencumbered by that limit. Harry has experience, Fix doesn't. And it showed in their fight.
For Mab, we really don't know. But she knows everything Lea knows. So if Harry is special and Lea knows why, then Mab probably knows. Soulfire was a happy accident for Mab and I expect Starborns are always wizards.
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Slate almost takes Harry in Summer Knight. And in the cases we've seen, it isn't a magic slug fest, since Harry can't use lethal magic against humans. While the Winter Knights and Summer Knights prior to Harry were unencumbered by that limit. Harry has experience, Fix doesn't. And it showed in their fight.
Not really though, unlike Slate, Harry, as was said about King Alfred the Great, "you won't beat him because the bastard thinks.." Bernard Conwell, "The Last Kingdom." Great books and a wonderful three season series on Netflix..
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Not really though, unlike Slate, Harry, as was said about King Alfred the Great, "you won't beat him because the bastard thinks.." Bernard Conwell, "The Last Kingdom." Great books and a wonderful three season series on Netflix..
I always confuse Alfred the Great's father with Æthelred the Unready.
The fun thing about the Slate fight is that Fix did all the work for him. Push a nerd too far and you'll get wrenched.
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We all know that becoming the winter knight has:
D. It sounds like most knights die by violence. Might it make him as longer lived or otherwise slow aging compared even to most wizards?
Any others?
Actually, I think it might be the other way around. Harry running past his normal limits and having to heal faster and possibly more often, will mean he ages faster than most wizards. So this is a cost, not a benefit of being the Winter Knight.
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Actually, I think it might be the other way around. Harry running past his normal limits and having to heal faster and possibly more often, will mean he ages faster than most wizards. So this is a cost, not a benefit of being the Winter Knight.
Why would it mean he ages faster? Healing faster is an advantage that youth has over age, so it
could be that Harry gets younger and stays younger than most wizards
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Q: Have we ever seen Harry boost Infriga or other Winter-magic with Soulfire?
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Q: Have we ever seen Harry boost Infriga or other Winter-magic with Soulfire?
Fire and Ice....
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Why would it mean he ages faster? Healing faster is an advantage that youth has over age, so it
could be that Harry gets younger and stays younger than most wizards
We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think the Winter Knight's high octane lifestyle has a downside beyond the obvious risks; both physical and moral, the bearer of the Winter Knight's mantel has to deal with.
Yes, when you are younger you heel faster, but what happens when you are forced to heal over and over again? I think Winter Knight Harry is burning the candle at both ends.
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Q: Have we ever seen Harry boost Infriga or other Winter-magic with Soulfire?
Has there been any reference to any other knight who was also a wizard? Besides Ronald Ruel (sp?), fix and Lloyd Slate, the other one referenced that I remember is Andrei Chicotilo (sp?) who was a mortal Russian serial killer/cannibal. I vaguely seem to remember Giles De Raies being mentioned also.
Harry may unique among knights.
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Has there been any reference to any other knight who was also a wizard? Besides Ronald Ruel (sp?), fix and Lloyd Slate, the other one referenced that I remember is Andrei Chicotilo (sp?) who was a mortal Russian serial killer/cannibal. I vaguely seem to remember Giles De Raies being mentioned also.
Harry may unique among knights.
The Dresden files RPG indicates that Rasputin was a biomancer (so not a full wizard, but like Morty as a specialist) who became winter knight.
Also, I thought Mab at least implied that Tam Lin was a winter knight, and he might have been a wizard.
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I took the RPG to imply that Rasputin was an agent of Winter, but not the Winter Knight. That other guy from the RPG was implied to be the Knight. Several historic serial killers were listed as former Winter Knights.
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I took the RPG to imply that Rasputin was an agent of Winter, but not the Winter Knight. That other guy from the RPG was implied to be the Knight. Several historic serial killers were listed as former Winter Knights.
This is true. In the Paranet Papers, the Winter Knight of the time is identified as Nicolai Dmitrich Bolshov, a Cheka (communist Russia secret police) officer.
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Thanks. I couldn't recall specifically. I don't play games anymore, so I just get hold of the rpg manuals long enough to read the stories. Same for the comic books, but those are just because I've never liked the medium, despite trying.
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Q: Have we ever seen Harry boost Infriga or other Winter-magic with Soulfire?
Yes in cold days, that harpoon he makes of ice and soulfire in the barfight with the outsider, he who walks before
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Yes in cold days, that harpoon he makes of ice and soulfire in the barfight with the outsider, he who walks before
Nope, that was fire. It made, "an arctic-gale hown and a spiraling harpoon of blue-white fire burning hotter than anything this side of a star" Which is not what usually happens with soulfire infused fire... And considering some of the adjectives it is understandable some might think of ice.
The winter knight side of him did rear up moments later though, "as my fist sailed forward, there was a sudden thrill that flowed up my arm from my hand, something delicious and startling. I had barely processed that when I heard a crackling noise, and then saw glacial blue and green ice abruptly coating my fist..."
I don't think we've seen soulfire plus winter knight ice yet. I am really looking forward to the fight with outsiders with Eb in the new book, because I think we are going to see if Harry overshadows Eb in the fight against the outsiders because of his ability to withstand their mental attacks (starborn), the added effect soul fire has, and the apparent instinctive support he gets from winter against outsiders. Literally every power up he has gotten is even more effective against outsiders than against anything else. I think Eb is going to be shocked after he sees Harry fight an outsider.
If so, I suspect Eb will be like, "Oh my God, you do realize X, right? We need to talk later." Only for Eb to die later so that Harry has a little more to go on, but not all of it. Plus, seeing Harry as the guy powered all to heck to fight outsiders is what tips the balance and causes Eb to leave Harry the blackstaff, which then powers him up even further since it syncs with the winter knight mantle sooooo nicely.
Plus, since the staff stays with him somehow (seeing as how it could just appear in Eb's hand previously) it makes a nice plot device for when he does mirror mirror as a power-up he can use against his alter-self even after he's summoned right out of his shower or something...
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I don't think we've seen soulfire plus winter knight ice yet.
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Literally every power up he has gotten is even more effective against outsiders than against anything else.
The question was "winter magic," not ice. Which raises the question, is there any magic besides ice magic that is associated with winter magic? On the second part of the quoted material, maybe that's a clue to what's coming? (I'm going to say it's definitely a clue to what's coming).
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The question was "winter magic," not ice. Which raises the question, is there any magic besides ice magic that is associated with winter magic?
The answer specific answer was an ice harpoon, which was wrong. In general, I think the answer is no, I don’t believe we’ve seen winter powers augmented by soul fire. Which is really silly because we know it best at creation and makes thing stronger. When he created the ice wall while (failing to) protecting Harvey against the ghouls, that would have been a great time to use soul fire to augment a spell to make it harder than drywall for them to get through