Ah. Yeah, that is a bit tricky. A stunt letting him make sword attacks with a casting skill might help.
Power looks questionable to me. Evocation accuracy can very easily go to Legendary and beyond, so stressless evocation attacks are dangerous territory.
I think being able to add the weapon rating of a sword is a big deal. +3 stress is 1.5 Refresh worth of stuff.
And elements are broad enough that being limited to one usually isn't a major problem.
Yes, but it's +3 stress you can inflict anyway. You've already got the weapon; this just lets you use your spellcasting skills to wield it rather than your weapons skill.
I can up the cost to -2 if you think that would work better. I was just going off the refresh cost difference between channeling and evocation.
Except you can't inflict that stress anyway, because you can't use that weapon with the attacks you're making.
Evocation's biggest benefit isn't so much the extra elements as it is the specializations.
You have to pay for Armed Arts. And it's still probably the strongest Fists stunt.
So the conclusion here is that this power should cost -2 rather than -1.Without spending a single point on Refinement, a character with Evocation can have a +8 to attack with a given element -- 5 base Discipline, +1 for specialization, +2 for a focus. And that's if he's only using the Focus Slots he got with Evocation; if we're talking a full wizard, that could bump his attack roll to a 10 base.
Edit: Wait a minute, you have to pay for this stunt too. The only difference between this stunt and Armed Arts is that you can use your earth magic power bonuses--and you had to pay for those via refinements. This stunt is basically a straight up skill substitution. It is essentially either "use conviction + earth power bonuses instead of fists" or "use conviction + earth power bonuses instead of weapons."
Discipline and control, not Conviction and power.Honestly, I wouldn't allow it at all.
Anyway, it's probably okay at 2 Refresh. But as Mr. Death says, those control bonuses are a big deal.
At that point it hardly matters what the weapon rating is, since most monsters' dodge skills top out at 3.
This isn't a mere skill substitution. It's allowing for high-powered, free attacks that would not be possible otherwise.
With the way it stacks the already hefty bonuses to Evocation, there's no reason any spell-slinger wouldn't take this and immediately be able to completely dominate in a straight fight.
Anyway, it's probably okay at 2 Refresh.
Really? I thought that dodging was based on the Athletics skill, and that it got a bonus for speed powers.Check Our World sometime; the average monster is statted so that its dodge is at 3, with Ghouls and a couple others something of an outlier at 4 and 5.
No. It's upping the power of attacks that would definitely be possible otherwise. If you don't have a sword, they can't attack your monsters with a sword. If you have a broken wrist, that should be compellable to make a punch not possible.It's not possible to have 10-base attack rolls for something without taking stress for each attack.
If this power is such a game-breaker, you're not being particularly creative with your monsters.
Because wizards and such tend to be rather short on refresh, and there are other things they can spend it on. (Also because some people care about giving their character appropriate powers rather than just strong ones.)One of the caster's few weaknesses is that their stress tracks effectively limit how many big attacks they can pull off, especially as they might want to use that stress for maneuvers or blocks instead.
Four weapon 9 accuracy 10 sight-ranged (potentially zone-wide) attacks is in most battles much stronger than an unlimited number of weapon 3 accuracy 10 weapon-ranged attacks.Maybe, but there's still a functional limit and real risk associated with it. Evocation is powerful, sure, and it's supposed to be, but it's also not supposed to be something you can use all day.
Instead of some
electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an
earth attack might look as though the wizard
was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting,
always managing to slip past the opponent’s
defense.
And the Speed bonuses top out at +3; so even if a monster is starting from a 5 in Athletics, every attack the person with this stunt throws can be 2 above that.
It's not possible to have 10-base attack rolls for something without taking stress for each attack.
And if you have to rewrite all the monsters in the game to accommodate it, yes, it's a game-breaker.
One of the caster's few weaknesses is that their stress tracks effectively limit how many big attacks they can pull off, especially as they might want to use that stress for maneuvers or blocks instead.
This effectively removes that limit, and given how the attack roll stacks damage on top of the weapon roll, that's a pretty big deal, especially since further refinements can keep stacking it.
It also means the four refresh you'd have to divide between attacking and defending are completely free to defend, lessening the burden of the Paranet Papers' suggestion of using instant spells for defense rolls.
I honestly don't see any reason you couldn't represent that by just rolling an Earth evocation like normal and flavoring it as him using the sword, because that's more what it seems to be saying.
Okay, let me see if I can figure out how much refresh you'd have to spend to get a base-10 attack using this power. I'll assume you have a Conviction of 5.Way less than what you're positing.
I'm not saying "rewrite all the monsters in the game," I'm saying "have attacks happen when the wizard doesn't have his/her weapon," "stage ambushes," "use snipers," "have monsters throw a bomb in the wizard's house," "make the wizard deal with drive-by shootings"--you know, the ways we've seen wizards get attacked in the books.Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.
You don't have wizards attack/get attacked much in the Nevernever in your games, do you? Because the stressless casting I'm using is adapted directly from what Paranet Papers says that all wizards get in the Nevernever.In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.
Because I have objections to letting any attack that's supposedly made with, say, a weapon:1 knife, a weapon:2 or 3 sword, or a weapon:0 fist count as a weapon:10 attack, and that's what this would accomplish.I don't understand this objection at all.
Way less than what you're positing.
Evocation: -3 refresh, puts you at 6; plus two Focus slots, which put you at 8.
Then either Thaumaturgy (which a wizard is taking anyway) or a single refinement for two more slots to make it 10.
And it kind of seems like you're moving the goalposts with the mental toughness requirement, considering it hasn't been mentioned at all up to now in the discussion.
Players are nothing if not resourceful enough to find ways around any of those.
And a player is going to be more than a little cross if every fight deprives him of a skill he put time into putting together, so the game is going to have at least a few straight fights, in which case the wizard casting free attacks from 10+ with Weapon:3 is going to outclass any of his mundane allies, without even incurring the normal costs of doing business.
In a very specific spot that not all games go to, and which has built-in consequences when you do try to use it. This is bringing the power plus a weapon rating, everywhere without those consequences.
I don't understand this objection at all.
It's an Earth evocation; just flavored as something different. If anything, the knife or sword or fist as flavor is utterly superfluous.
Okay, I'm not so good at game balance, so balance-wise this might be a problem. What I'm trying to do is create powers that replicate what we see it the books--and from what we see in the books, in a straight fight where you have prepared wizards and don't have enemies with magic resistance, wizards do indeed outclass their mundane allies, unless those mundane allies are people like Marcone or Kincaid (or Murphy, or...). And when it comes to computer hacking, the wizard is outclassed by their mundane allies. Like I said, I don't understand game balance all that well (it's why I keep posting things looking for help with mechanics) but I thought that you were supposed to have different characters be good at different things. (I mean, obviously, if one player wants to have their character be a vanilla mortal who's super good with a sword or whatever, then probably this power shouldn't be used. But can't you discuss that during character creation, or something?)What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.
Actually, you've explained my objection perfectly: the knife/sword/fist is superfluous--so why should it be there? If you want an earth evocation, do an earth evocation. If you want to make an attack with a sword, then you get the weapon rating of the sword. If you want to use earth magic to make a really effective attack with a sword, then you should still get the weapon rating of the sword--or the sword should not be involved.You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.
What it comes down to is, in most games, there's gonna be more combat than computer hacking, and there's a difference between Wizards having a distinct power advantage (which is reflected in the lore and the mechanics), and other characters being unable to contribute in a frequently-recurring aspect of the game.
Say you have a wizard that went all in on this power, and can freely pop off Weapon:3 attacks at a 10. Even if the average goon has a dodge roll of 5, that means the wizard has as good as an auto-hit attack that stands a good chance of one-shotting whatever he hits unless the GM gives it consequences.
Let's say his teammates are a super strong valkyrie and a mortal cop; the Valkyrie, with a sword, can do Weapon: 5 damage on a hit, but her attack roll tops out at 5. Same with the cop -- she's got an assault rifle at Weapon:3, and a Guns score at 5.
Already, the goons that the wizard is one-shotting are dodging half of the rest of the attacks, and taking less stress each time they do take a hit.
So does the GM adjust things to make it harder for the wizard to hit? If so, his allies are now hopelessly unable to hit the same enemies. Does he handicap the wizard specifically? Then the wizard's player is going to be annoyed.
You're getting too hung up on the flavor. Dresden RPG is not a simulation -- ultimately, stress does not represent how much literal damage has been done; it is an abstract that represents how effective the attack is at taking someone out. That's probably part of why the attack roll adds to the damage — in theory, a single stab with a palm dagger is as effective at killing someone as a supernaturally hot plasma blast from Harry's rod.
Why have one Warden throw fire as a green ball that bounces across the ground, while another shoots little stars? Why have Ramirez specialize in Water evocations when, mechanically, it does the exact same thing as Harry's fire evocations? Why have Billy turn into a werewolf when holding a sword will do about the same damage without worrying about shedding all over the couch?
There's already lots of "With X weapon, I do two extra stress" stunts that some on this board advocate; so at one more refresh, it's a Weapon:5 sword being swung from a 10, freely each round.
Plus, sword fighting is as much defense as offense, so why not argue that you can use that super-high bonus to deflect attacks just as easily, with no stress cost?
So, are you going to suggest improvements, or do you just not like this ability, period?Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.
For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?
What if power bonuses only contributed to aiming, rather than the attack value?That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.
Would it work better if it was limited to fists, and you had to pay an extra refresh to use it with weapons? Would it work better if you had to cut your conviction + power bonuses in half to use this ability? What if you just have a flat -2 on all rolls using this power? What if you had to split the value of your roll between aiming and attack value? Should this power instead be the ability to do earth magic maneuvers without stress as a supplemental action when attacking with fists/weapons, without the usual -1 penalty?I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.
I appreciate feedback, but it's really annoying when what I'm hearing is "it won't work, and you shouldn't make it work because your reasons for wanting to make it work are stupid." I don't like most roleplaying games, and what makes this one fun is that I really like the Dresden files. As such, I'm trying to create powers that let things work the way they do in the books.I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.
I hadn't seen these. But, um, why couldn't other characters use them, too? If your valkyrie and mortal gunfighter also have the option of buying these stunts (and probably have more refresh to do it with, honestly) how is this a problem?Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
Yes. That would put it more in line with other skill-swapping stunts.
That creates more bookkeeping, which can bog things down.
I tend to avoid using different penalties and such like that, because again, more bookkeeping when combat is already by nature a time-consuming endeavor, so streamlining it tends to be preferred.
I'm sorry if I came off that way. I just don't see a conflict that needs to be resolved with a new power -- as I said, "roll it as Evocation, but flavor it as a sword attack" is something I've regularly done as a GM and, perhaps more to the point, we haven't necessarily seen Morgan do this, the characters are just speculating about it in the margins -- so the proposal seems, to me, both unnecessary and potentially game-breaking.
For what it's worth, I read the margin conversation as more, "Maybe this is what justifies Morgan's high Weapons skill," and less, "Maybe he's literally using his magic to actively strike better with the sword."
Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.
It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.
For instance, would this power work better power bonuses did not contribute to aiming?
Maybe, but there's still a functional limit and real risk associated with it. Evocation is powerful, sure, and it's supposed to be, but it's also not supposed to be something you can use all day.
I mean, look at Breath Weapon, which would work similarly to this. For one, it's only Weapon:2, and it doesn't allow for a bunch of stacked bonuses to make it auto-hit every round.
Because I don't like those stunts, and I was trying to make a point. I think they're overpowered for the cost (in practice, they amount to a flat bonus for something you get for free) and lead to more "well why doesn't everyone get them?" inflation.
Check Our World sometime; the average monster is statted so that its dodge is at 3, with Ghouls and a couple others something of an outlier at 4 and 5.
Skill inflation is an issue a lot around here, from what I've seen -- canon characters are thought to be statted out wrong because they're not super-optimized with high-powered stunts like that, and the average monster in Our World turns into a hilariously ineffective goon in the face of PCs that for -3 refresh are rolling +6 Guns and Weapons attacks at Weapon:5 round after round, and defending at +6 to boot.
It's a pet peeve of mine, as you can tell.
I think I'm going to go with having the power bonus only effect aim, rather than not effect aim, since it's the same amount of bookkeeping (you just subtract the power bonus from the attack when calculating damage instead of when aiming) and it seems more thematically appropriate.
The limitation is well worth it. It's not reasonable to call this overpowered when it's worse than the existing baseline.The thing is, it gives the wizard essentially a free attack that's far more powerful for the high attack roll than is available to anyone else and it frees up the Mental stress boxes for defenses and maneuvers, when without this stunt, a wizard would have to more carefully balance his resources.
Especially since, when you remove the assumption that the Wizard is going all-in on hitting as hard as possible, this Power suffers more than regular Evocation does.
Anyway, I don't think Breath Weapon is a good comparison. Because Breath Weapon doesn't actually provide a bonus; it just lets you spend 2 Refresh on a guarantee that you will never be disarmed.That was kind of my point. If Breath Weapon is the game's model for a "free" magic attack, this proposed stunt blows it out of the water.
If a weapon focus stunt would be unfair in your game, you might want to nerf foci/enchanted items. And merge Fists with Weapons.But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."
There's a bunch of stuff in the game based on the assumption that characters won't always have their stuff. Foci, the existence of the Fists skill, Item of Power, Armed Arts, Breath Weapon, and the like.
You don't need high optimization to smack around Our World monsters. You just need to put combat-relevant stuff in (some of) your highest skill slots and spend a bit of Refresh on fighty stuff. OW generally assumes / expects a low level of both optimization and combat focus.That's right, you don't -- thing is, there's a problem when a 6-refresh Pure Mortal is able to trounce monsters that, in canon, give full-fledged-wizard Harry consistent trouble.
I don't really see this as a problem, since there's no right level of optimization or combat focus. But I do think it would've been good for the book to talk a bit about how monster stats can be adjusted to suit different groups.It's more of a mindset thing and personal pet peeve, I think, than a practical problem.
They already don't. Aim is Discipline + control, not Conviction + power.
The thing is, it gives the wizard essentially a free attack that's far more powerful for the high attack roll than is available to anyone else and it frees up the Mental stress boxes for defenses and maneuvers, when without this stunt, a wizard would have to more carefully balance his resources.
A normal wizard might have to choose between whether to use his stress boxes to attack or defend -- with this stunt, they're free to put up an enormous Block against all attacks, then attack at their leisure for free.
But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."
What's the point of a stunt to get +1 to an attack when I'm surrounded by targets if I can instead take a stunt to get +1 to attack all the time? What's the point of a stunt to unload the clip of a gun for +2 stress when I can just take a stunt to get +2 on every attack with the gun?
This all seems too complicated. Why not just say that his weapon skill is complimented by his discipline? Thematically appropriate and it adds a +1 to his weapon skill if his discipline is higher than weapons.
This is a -1 refresh stunt - at most.
Because it doesn't replicate what I'm trying to replicate. I had considered designing this power to allow wizards to add their earth power bonus to their weapons/fists skill, but the original point of posting this was to resolve the problem of "making wizards have high weapons/fists skills is unoptimized" while still allowing Morgan-type characters to run around with swords and stuff.
I realize that you'll probably just think that this makes the power more problematic, but you really should be able to use this power for defense and maneuvers when appropriate, not just attack.Well, yes. If you're rolling everything from 10 for free thanks to a single -2 refresh power, that's just plain broken.
Actually, would allowing stunt bonuses to stack help to fix the problem of wizards being so much better at combat than other characters?That doesn't really fix the problem so much as just play into the inflation.
Because it doesn't replicate what I'm trying to replicate. I had considered designing this power to allow wizards to add their earth power bonus to their weapons/fists skill, but the original point of posting this was to resolve the problem of "making wizards have high weapons/fists skills is unoptimized" while still allowing Morgan-type characters to run around with swords and stuff.There's already a way to resolve that:
And change of plans: instead of only allowing power bonuses to help with aiming, I'm just going to say that you get a flat -2 penalty to the roll, because even if it's more math, it makes more sense to me and also deals with defense and maneuvers, where the "only to aiming" thing was specifically geared toward attacks.That doesn't really fix it; it's one refinement away from getting right back up to 10, so it's really only delaying the same result.
I have to disagree, This is literally what complimenting a skill does and why it was put in the game.Agreed with basically everything here.
Morgan is really good with swords. His weapons skill is 4 or 5. He’s amazing at earth magic: like 6+ skill after specialization.
His earth magic helps his sword fighting. In this game, the mechanical term for that is ‘compliment’. His earth magic skill compliments his sword skill which boosts his weapons to 6.
So, even when he’s out of spells, his ability to manipulate the metal in the sword boosts his attack to 6.
I mean, feel free to ignore this but i feel it’s a lot less complicated, requires no limitations and is not overpowered but is still a solid boost. And it’s based on other stunts. You could even expand the stunt to affect other items other than swords. Like having it compliment a Might Check when trying to bust down a metal door if you feel it’s underpowered.
I have to disagree, This is literally what complimenting a skill does and why it was put in the game.
Morgan is really good with swords. His weapons skill is 4 or 5. He’s amazing at earth magic: like 6+ skill after specialization.
His earth magic helps his sword fighting. In this game, the mechanical term for that is ‘compliment’. His earth magic skill compliments his sword skill which boosts his weapons to 6.
So, even when he’s out of spells, his ability to manipulate the metal in the sword boosts his attack to 6.
I mean, feel free to ignore this but i feel it’s a lot less complicated, requires no limitations and is not overpowered but is still a solid boost. And it’s based on other stunts. You could even expand the stunt to affect other items other than swords. Like having it compliment a Might Check when trying to bust down a metal door if you feel it’s underpowered.
Well, yes. If you're rolling everything from 10 for free thanks to a single -2 refresh power, that's just plain broken.
That doesn't really fix it; it's one refinement away from getting right back up to 10, so it's really only delaying the same result.
That doesn't really fix the problem so much as just play into the inflation.
There's already a way to resolve that:
High Weapons skill, reasonably high casting skills.
Evocation is already powerful even with only "good" instead of "optimized" skills, so having Discipline and Conviction at 4 or 3 isn't really a handicap, especially once focus items and refinements come into play.
Morgan's good with a sword -- but he's certainly not at Shiro's level. What this stunt does is let a caster effectively be leaps and bounds above the guy who's described as literally the best at swordfighting even before Fidelacchius's +1 to hit power comes into play.
Honestly, this is sounding more and more like a complicated, easily-abusable solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist. It's really not hard to build a Warden character that has good Swording ability and good casting ability. Off the top of my head? At Submerged, you could easily have Weapons at 5, Discipline and Athletics at 4, Conviction at 3. Between Specialization and the four focus item slots, that can bring your effective power and control for a given element back up to 5 or even 6.
And there you go -- a character who is super good at swording, and can hit as hard as Dresden, no complicated penalties or conditions necessary.
What I meant by "doesn't replicate what I want it to" is that your suggestion isn't earth magic-specific.
Also, it's got nothing to do with manipulating metal--earth magic, according to Paranet Papers, is about enhancing your instincts.
It is related to earth. If his discipline is 4 and his weapons is 5, he wouldn’t get the bonus to weapons. If his earth specialty pushes his earth control over 5, he gets a +1 to weapons.
As far as fluff goes, it doesn’t matter. So instead of it being his manipulation of metal, his specialty has honed his instincts. Mechanically, it is still his earth magic that compliments his weapons skill.
But if it’s just honed instincts, shouldn’t it affect more than just weapons? Like dodging and alertness?
It sounds more like an aspect to me.
A normal wizard might have to choose between whether to use his stress boxes to attack or defend -- with this stunt, they're free to put up an enormous Block against all attacks, then attack at their leisure for free.
I realize that you'll probably just think that this makes the power more problematic, but you really should be able to use this power for defense and maneuvers when appropriate, not just attack.
That was kind of my point. If Breath Weapon is the game's model for a "free" magic attack, this proposed stunt blows it out of the water.
But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."
That's right, you don't -- thing is, there's a problem when a 6-refresh Pure Mortal is able to trounce monsters that, in canon, give full-fledged-wizard Harry consistent trouble.
I thought that if you rolled a 10 or whatever for your attack, that was the value your target had to beat to avoid the attack. In this case, wouldn't that be conviction + power?
Actually, would allowing stunt bonuses to stack help to fix the problem of wizards being so much better at combat than other characters?
Because it doesn't replicate what I'm trying to replicate. I had considered designing this power to allow wizards to add their earth power bonus to their weapons/fists skill, but the original point of posting this was to resolve the problem of "making wizards have high weapons/fists skills is unoptimized" while still allowing Morgan-type characters to run around with swords and stuff.
What do you think of my suggestion of adding his earth magic power bonus to his weapons score?[/b]
...Agreed. Murphy should be dangerous with a katana (or a P90) in-hand; even if it's not one of the Swords of the Cross, Murphy should be a credible threat to ordinary Vamps (whether Ramp/Blamp/Whamp), and even to Master-caliber Vamps if they don't take her seriously, if they try to take her with mere combat. Not the obvious winner -- she's still an underdog vs. an Ortega or a Mavra or a Lara -- but a credible threat.
I think that's a very bad idea. Would make it trivial to get a Weapons skill that's absolutely unattainable for anyone who isn't a spellcaster.
You roll Discipline + control to control / aim spells. Conviction + power is used to draw the shifts of power that fuel the spell.
One idea I've toyed with: compress Discipline and Conviction into Will. Instead of using Discipline + Conviction, spells use Will + the skill you'd normally use. So you'd use a combat skill to use combat spells, Investigation to use divination magic, and so on. Would make it almost inevitable for fight wizards to be great swordsmen / martial artists / whatever.
I think that's a very bad idea. Would make it trivial to get a Weapons skill that's absolutely unattainable for anyone who isn't a spellcaster.
Agreed. Murphy should be dangerous with a katana (or a P90) in-hand; even if it's not one of the Swords of the Cross, Murphy should be a credible threat to ordinary Vamps (whether Ramp/Blamp/Whamp), and even to Master-caliber Vamps if they don't take her seriously, if they try to take her with mere combat. Not the obvious winner -- she's still an underdog vs. an Ortega or a Mavra or a Lara -- but a credible threat.
Spellcasters shouldn't be able to out-do ANY/EVERY mortal within their own specialty, which is what this represents. I mean, this SPECIFICALLY represents a spellcaster out-performing a master swordsman; but once we establish the principle, it applies equally to the master of any other skill or craft.
A spellcaster should be able to BEAT the master swordsman, sure... but with Fuego, or Ventas Servitas, or what-have-you; not by grabbing a blade and out-fencing the mortal; at least not by so much that they make it look like a no-contest match! They shouldn't be able to out-bookkeep a top-tier CPA. They shouldn't be able to out-shoot a specialist sniper, etc. Out-perform them, in various ways, with magic? Absolutely.
===
That said... Morgan was reportedly a SERIOUS badass with a blade. So that should be represented SOMEHOW ...
But I think Murphy with a katana would take him, if his blade were not magical...
Š Fantastic (+6) and above skirt the boundaries of natural human capacity.
Š Great (+4) and Superb (+5) indicate veteran or masterful capacity, or the combination of extreme talent and good training.
Fair (+2) and Good (+3) indicate journeyman or “professional” capacity, or a nearly inhuman degree of talent.
Before we dive too far into homebrew, let's refocus the question: You want a good representation of Morgan.
So, then, we must ask: How good of a swordman is Morgan when you consider his 'honed instincts' derived from his earth magic ?
Shiro is listed at Fantastic which, according to the ladder is:
...
If you want to add more, then Morgan is either a very poor swordsman who relies entirely on his magic for his skill or he's an expert/proffessional swordsman whose supernatural ability makes him better than Shiro.
Or what if the stunt/power allowed you to make earth magic maneuvers related to combat as a supplemental action without the usual supplemental action and without taking stress?
That said... Morgan was reportedly a SERIOUS badass with a blade. So that should be represented SOMEHOW ...
But this isn't standard spellcasting; it's the easy evocations power, you can just use it with your fists or with a weapon.
Could you elaborate? This sounds really interesting!
...What about adding half the power bonus? I agree with you that I don't want to have wizards outdoing everyone else at everything, but I'm still trying to figure out a way to represent earth magic as looking like really good mundane combat.
Or what if the stunt/power allowed you to make earth magic maneuvers related to combat as a supplemental action without the usual supplemental action and without taking stress?
OW says Shiro is +6 and +7 to defense. Even if you push it by 1 shift, my point still stands: the more shifts this ability gives Morgan, the crappier he is naturally. I think he's only slightly worse than micheal who has a skill of +5
Doing it as a supplemental would give you a free tag every round and, if it didn't cause stress, you could do it for infinity.
How about something like this: 'You may use your earth magic to 'hone your instincts', making you more alert for danger and quicker and deadlier in combat. You may use your Earth magic to create the Maneuver: 'honed instincts'. The aspect lasts for the scene and you may tag the aspect twice.'
It could even be one of his Rote spells.
The contrast to air, earth magic relies on instinct and intuition—basic, primal impulses operating on a supernatural level. The least structured of all the elements, earth magic manifests in reflexive command of the basic forces of nature (gravity, electromagnetism, and perhaps weak and strong nuclear forces) and seeming to always be “on the ball.” It’s not neat and precise like air magic, or chaotic like fire magic—the effects are unplanned and improvisational, coming from the gut, yet they always seem to work extremely well.
We know of overt earth magic doing things like creating earthquakes or changing the direction of gravity, but it can also manifest
as extreme ease of action on the wizard’s part. Instead of a literal shield, an earth block might look like a series of coincidental dodges, with the wizard just instinctively knowing which way to move to avoid the attack. Instead of some electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an earth attack might look as though the wizard was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting, always managing to slip past the opponent’s defense.
Perhaps the most advanced application of earth magic doesn’t look like magic at all— just the right things happening in response to anything the wizard does, always working out in his favor.
To expand on what I said a few posts back, I think all these Power concepts are likely to fail because the basic problem has been mis-identified.
The game doesn't need ways to represent using magic to be better at mundane fighting. It has a million of those.
The thing that all this is meant to address is that having high Weapons and Evocation is generally a bad idea optimization-wise. And that puts Wardens in a weird place. To deal with that, you'll want a different approach.
Power writeup that I can see doesn't say anything about that. Says that you can cast without stress, not that you can cast with the easy evocations rules.
No way. A free Aspect every round is crazy strong.
Do you think I should just have this as a 1-refresh upgrade to the easy evocations power that says "you can incorporate weapons into your earth evocations done with this power and get their weapons value"?
I still don't think any of this really addresses the issue of Warden optimality though.
True. But on reflection, wardens need high skills in:Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
Conviction
Discipline
Lore
any two/three of
-intimidation
-deceit
-rapport
-empathy
-presence
investigation
weapons
alertness
And they should probably also have decent athletics, endurance, contacts, and guns.
So I think the real problem with wardens is they need to be able to do a bunch of stuff, since they're sent out on their own to investigate suspicious stuff and hunt down warlocks, plus interface with minor talents (which admittedly they're not too good at) and they don't seem to be able to get much, if any, backup even when they have time to ask for it.
Instead of a literal shield, an earth block
might look like a series of coincidental dodges, with the wizard just instinctively knowing which way to move to avoid the attack.is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.
Instead of some electromagnetic distortion zapping people, an earth attack
might look as though the wizard was really, really good at hand-to-hand fighting, always managing to slip past the opponent’s defense.is described differently, without changing the mechanics.
Perhaps the most advanced application of earth magic doesn’t look like magic at all— just the right things happening in response to anything the wizard does, always working out in his favor.And he has an aspect that he can tag.
Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."
Also 3 in a skill is still "decent." 4 and 5 are already exceptional, and 6 is explicitly more than humans are usually capable of.
I do not see any issue with just having Weapons, Discipline and Conviction filling the 3-5 slots. With focus items and specializations, that's more than enough to be badass with swords and a more than formidable caster. And hell, with a decent Lore, the Thaumaturgy power can let you be good at damn near any other skill with some prep time.
And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.
I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.
A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.
Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.
A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go
So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.
Well, for a start... yeah, nobody's going to be super good at everything. That's how life -- and this game system -- works. If you spend all your time being swordy and magicy, something's going to fall to the wayside. That's why we see some Wardens that are better at one or the other (Yoshimo in Dead Beat, who Morgan outright says shouldn't have tried to use her sword because she's crap with it).
It's a balancing act, and I think some of the most fun parts of the game are when a character has to make use of his or her lower-point skills, because then they have to get creative instead of, "OK, just gonna roll my apex skill again and again."
I see a lot of unwarranted assumptions being made based on a fight we didn't see.
A 5 with Swords -- especially a Warden sword which can become Weapon:6 on command -- is already plenty good enough to carve your way through the Red Court's footsoldiers and ghouls without needing some "free" casting power.
Morgan doesn't have to have personally, individually taken out every single one of the Red King's bodyguards to have taken a swing at the Red King.
A. Morgan was not the only Warden in the battle and B. Morgan could have used some huge Earth evocation to simply knock the bodyguards away in one go
So again I fail to see the need for a stunt or power of this type; Morgan's write-up already has him as good with swords and a strong magic user. Unless you're buying into the whole "Anything below a 5 is weak" philosophy.
And again, this is just playing into the inflation -- suddenly Shiro's 6 in swordplay is understatted? 6 is literally beyond human ability.
To reinforce this point and to touch on the point that Shiro’s +6 skill isn’t high enough.
1. He’s twice as good as a full professional swordsman
2. I play in a 19 refresh game where the skill cap is +6. My character’s weapon skill is 6 with a boost to 7 with a magic weapon.
-Mundane enemies are not a challenge at all.
—granted, the character has toughness powers and Incite Effect triggered off of weapons
-My character single handedly took out Lord Raith. It was a super hard fight and he had high refresh goons with him but his goons couldn’t touch my character. With fate points and maneuvers and tags, I was putting up +9 and 10 blocks and defending everything at +7.
If you boost things past the Ladder, then low skills become useless. I already find skills at +2 and 3 to be less useful because the high refresh enemies we are facing are usually able to defend against it. But it’s still perfectly fine against ‘normal’ enemies. If you push me to everything higher, then your mooks now all need to be full professional soldiers in every situation.
As for what it says in the Paranet Papers, I really do not think it's saying, "Use this to justify adding your spellcasting bonuses to other skills."
The way I read it:
An Earth Block Evocation spell ...
is described differently, without changing the actual mechanics.
And...
An Earth evocation attack spell
is described differently, without changing the mechanics.
And he has an aspect that he can tag.
Regarding aspects: a taggable aspect is not equal to a straight +2 bonus. Aspects can be invoked for effect. So, instead of giving yourself a +2 to dodge, you can use that aspect to make an attack miss by compelling the aspect against the enemy, for instance. I feel you may be under-selling aspects.
yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.
The mechanics of the game are, literally, built on aspects. You seem reluctant to use these mechanics to solve your issues. Are you finding aspects aren't getting used much in your games?
What I was trying to say was that, given how many things the ideal warden ought to be able to do, there's no point in worrying about less-than-excellent swordsmanship, since there's no way they can be good at everything. I feel like this didn't come across, though.Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.
About the battle: the impression I got when reading about it was that A) Morgan was mostly, if not entirely, responsible for getting as close as he did, which is one of the things that made it so impressive; and B) that this battle demonstrated that Morgan was better than 99% of wardens. This is what I have based my assumptions on. Other people, naturally, are free to read it differently.I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.
And yes, Morgan's character write-up already includes his sword skills. I brought up substituting this power for that because other people have said that his build is not optimized--not because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?
My assertions about Shiro being under-statted are based on character write-ups that we see in Paranet Papers. Specifically, I believe that if Shiro is, as he is described, "Mozart with a sword" then A) he should have his highest skills equal to the highest skills of Senior Council members (since they're the best at what they do) and he doesn't; and B) that he should have combat stunts at least equal to Murphy (since she is very good, but isn't supposed to be better than him) and from what I remember, he doesn't.Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.
Yeah, I'm just going to represent this with an upgrade of the easy evocations power (written up on another thread). That makes more sense.I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.
I'm trying to use the RPG character progression system to keep track of my fan fiction character's growth while controlling the rate at which she improves so that she doesn't end up a Mary Sue. Aspects are significantly less useful for this than they are in actual games.You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?
Nobody's going to be an "ideal" Warden. They're going to be great at some things, good at others, and passable at the rest. There's no reason to expect them to be experts at everything they need to be good at.
I think both those assumptions are unfounded. It's a battle -- dozens, if not hundreds of guys to a side. Morgan might have been leading the charge and he might have been one of the best fighters on the field, but that doesn't mean that he's got some hitherto unknown power that puts him leaps and bounds above Shiro.
You think giving her a power that amounts to, "Make her far better with a sword than the canon character who's universally known as the best with swords" is going to prevent her from being a Mary Sue?
I'm pretty sure "Better than the canon character at the canon character's specialty" is one of the top 5 Mary Sue traits.
Who's said that? And why does he need to be "optimized"?
Magic and swordfighting are different things. The Senior Council members are each at least a couple hundred years old, and have used a lot of that time to get better at magic. Shiro did not have the benefit of hundreds of years, and is limited by his human body in a way that magic isn't, because Weapons is a physical skill.
Shiro's got a base Weapons of 6, and the Sword gives him a +1 on top of that. Neither Murphy's guns nor fists scores are up to that, and how many stunts one has is not a measure of how good they are.
I still don't see how it makes any sense, when there are several ways to do it by the RAW.
Yes. That's what I am saying.I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.
Okay, can you please explain to me why you're convinced that I'm trying to make wizards better fighters that Shiro when I have specifically stated that I do not want this, and have attempted to modify this power to avoid it (however dubiously successfully) every time someone said that it was what the power was doing?Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.
In a battle of Shiro vs. Morgan, here's how I see things playing out:Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan has his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro is on official Knight business and Morgan does not have his magic, Shiro wins hands down.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan has his magic, then it's a draw or Morgan maybe wins.
-If Shiro does not have TWG helping and Morgan does not have his magic, then Shiro wins hands down.
Sanctaphrax, for one, and he doesn't need to be, I just think it would be interesting if he were.I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.
Shiro is the equal or superior of someone who has had two thousand years to practice his swordsmanship.Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.
I'm going to be blunt here, and I apologize for my rudeness, but I don't care if you think it makes sense to do things this way, so long as it isn't overpowered.And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.
I'm confused then, because it also seems that you're saying this is a problem that you're trying to address, by giving a Warden an artificially high Swords power to more than compensate.
Shiro has a Weapons skill of 6. Applying the Easy Evocations ability to swordplay allows a Warden to start with an effective Weapons skill of 10 and then keep improving it through Refinements. Even with the modifications (-2 penalty; halving the bonuses), it's still something that can and will grow well beyond what Shiro is capable of, no matter what other stunts he takes.
And I'm saying it is overpowered, at least potentially. Rolling an essentially free attack from 5 or 6 is already powerful; rolling it from 7 or 8 or 9 or higher thanks to this proposed power is going to overshadow characters whose Weapons ability is supposed to be their specialty and niche.
The problem, as I understand it, is that due to refinement bonuses being able to boost one's skills much higher than you can with stunts (because stunts don't stack) wizards hit harder in combat. The limitation is usually that they can only make a limited number of attacks, so anything that increases or removes the limit is a problem.
To fix this, you can:
A) not allow anything that increases or removes the limit
B) weaken anything wizards do that is covered by the increase or removal of the limit
C) give other characters something similar to wizards' refinement bonuses
How can I interpret that as anything besides, "The end result is wizards will be better at swordplay than Shiro"?
Morgan wins easily if he has his magic.
Earth magic includes magnetism and Shiro's sword is made of steel. Morgan can -- like Harry has done -- make something magnetic enough that Shiro's spindly 80-year-old arms can't overcome it. As far as I know, the Swords do not have protection against magic working on them -- in fact, Harry uses exactly this quality on Amoracchius in Grave Peril to send Mavra flying across the room.
And I'm not sure in what situation Morgan wouldn't have his magic; but if he didn't, then yeah, the Shiro wins, if narrowly because Morgan is still pretty good at swording.
I disagree. Optimized characters tend to be less interesting than ones that have to get clever and creative to get things done.
Yes, because of the aforementioned physical limitations of the human body -- limitations that do not apply to magic.
Ah, sorry. What I was saying was that I was trying to do that, and then realized that there was no point.Ah, gotcha.
Actually, applying Easy Evocations to swordplay allows a warden to start with an effective weapons skill of 4-5 and then keep improving it through refinements. The fact that it can get so high is not an isolated problem, it's just one part of a larger problem which I've already mentioned, and will repost here:So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.
I am addressing this partly through B, and partly through handwaving the issue by saying "there's something that does C." I can do this because I am not using this power in a game, and don't need to stat out any character besides my main character--thus, I can just write Shiro as being better at swordsmanship than anyone else without having to come up with the specific mechanics of how it happens.
This power probably should not be used in actual games until someone actually writes up something that does C. However, while I would like to do that, I just don't know enough about the system to manage it, and the one thing I suggested, I was told would not work.I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.
You can interpret it as me trying to avoid that outcome.You wouldn't have to work to avoid the outcome if you were not proposing a power that, at its base, creates that outcome.
So now you're saying that I'd be right to give Morgan an ability that lets him beat Shiro at swords? I'm confused. (Also, I would tend to assume that that kind of magnetism trick wouldn't work if the sword was in the hands of a rightful bearer. Otherwise all the Denarians would just learn a few earth magic spells and the Knights wouldn't be a threat.)I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.
Agree to disagree.Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?
I don't know. We've seen Nicodemus move so fast he can't be seen moving. We know that Nicodemus has the ability to enhance his physical abilities (through Anduriel. Just because he doesn't do any obvious shapeshifting doesn't mean he doesn't up his speed or whatever). We know that Nicodemus is the equal or inferior of Shiro when it comes to swordsmanship. Based on this, one could make a good case that physical limitations are not that much of a problem when it comes to the weapons skill.Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.
On the other hand, we have Ursiel saying that Shiro is less capable now than when he was younger, so it could go either way.Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.
So, basically, the answer is just going ahead with inflation? I'm still not sure I understand the "problem" you're trying to address here.
So to clarify, is the problem that wizards only have a limited number of attacks with magic?
I'd say it definitely should not be used in actual games. Straight up inflation of skills isn't really the solution that this game is built for.
I'm saying Morgan has an ability to beat Shiro -- just not if he's fighting him sword-to-sword. Morgan's a wizard, why is he going to opt for a fighting style that puts him at the biggest disadvantage? If Morgan takes Shiro on in a straight swordfight, Shiro wins.
Put it this way -- why do you think Tavi is the main protagonist of the Codex Alera instead of, say, one of the high-powered High Lords?
Why is dumb-and-out-of-control Harry the protagonist of The Dresden Files instead of Ebenezer?
Remember that the biggest thing the Swords do is level the playing field -- Nicodemus may well simply not have access to those enhanced physical abilities when he's up against a proper Knight.
Also true. For all we know, that 6 of Shiro's might well be a downgrade from when he was in his prime -- or maybe in his prime, he had additional stunts having to do with his fighting style.
That's probably because the problem I'm addressing has evolved a bunch. It's gone from "Wardens like Morgan are unoptimized" to "How do you represent earth magic attacks as looking like mundane attacks?" to "If you already have the Easy Evocations power, how do you represent using a sword/staff/whatever as part of your attacks with that?"Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).
Okay, that makes sense. But, wait a minute, aren't the Swords supposed to level the playing field? If Shiro's on the job, then Fidellachius ought to be able to do something about Morgan's magic.They are, but what exactly that entails is kind of murky at best. It might be that the 'evening the playing field' applies to things that are specifically opposed to the Swords, like demons and Denarians.
Well, I've only read the first book and a half of Codex Alera, but from the descriptions I've read, doesn't Tavi end up not only the most powerful Crafter in the world, but also the leader of his civilization?
Good points.Thank you :)
Yeah, I suppose the conversation has gone a bit far afield. That said, I think the idea behind easy evocations is that the lack of a weapon rating is meant to balance the ease of it and the free casting, in which case I'd say that just rolling it into the "flavor" or maybe having it as an aspect of the attack works better than tacking on a weapons rating (i.e., an earth easy evocation with a mistletoe staff can get around Balder's immunity).
Well, I'm not sure he's the most powerful -- he's only had a couple months of practice and shows no discrete furies -- and becoming the leader of his civilization only really happens in the epilogue, i.e., when he stops being a protagonist.
The point is that what makes Tavi interesting to follow so long is that he is at a disadvantage and has to make up for it; even when he grows into his power, his opponents can match that power or otherwise justify him needing it to survive. He might not be the best example in the long run.
Edit: Combined with the other threads for (I'm presuming) this same character, it looks like you're aiming for someone who:
A. Is better at swording than the undisputed master of swording (Shiro)
B. Can shrug off and ignore most damage better than the undisputed master of getting his face kicked in (Harry)
C. Can take more damage than anyone else in a single blow and keep fighting
and D. Is a lawbreaker, but with more and better bonuses to the powers than Lawbreaker has in canon.
I just realized that I never addressed part of one of your earlier posts:Yeah, I added that as an edit, apparently while you were typing up your own response, so that's on me.
No, just someone who's about at Murphy's level or a little weaker (not Murphy at Chichen Itza, just normal Murphy). And she'd be using a staff, not a sword, though I'm not sure that makes a difference.If she's at about Murphy's level or weaker, then why not just give her an equivalent to Murphy's melee attack stat?
Well, if I was writing up Harry's character sheet, I'd give him this power too. I feel like he gets beat up enough that he probably would have it. And my character is explicitly Harry as a girl, so she should be as good as Harry at taking a beating.Harry also has an Armor:2 duster that helps him absorb a lot of the beatings and loses fights a lot, needing to be bailed out because he's out of stress and consequences to absorb.
Don't want this. If one of the stunts or powers I'm writing up does this, that's a mistake (actually, if this is about the "gives extra physical consequences" power, I'm going to go over to that thread and post a correction).Yeah, that's the power I was referring to.
Nope. That was mostly unrelated to my character. The only connection is that I was trying to make Lawbreaker (1st) work the way I see it working in the books, and given that my character is fem!Harry, she would have Lawbreaker (1st) for the same reason as canon!Harry. It wasn't really designed for her--I was just reading an old thread about Lawbreaker stuff and decided to post the idea it inspired. I'm not currently planning to give her any more Lawbreaker powers.OK, that's my mistake, then -- I saw a bunch of threads started by you, each of them talking about creating powers that go beyond what's normally available, and jumped to the conclusion that they were for the same person.
If she's at about Murphy's level or weaker, then why not just give her an equivalent to Murphy's melee attack stat?
Harry also has an Armor:2 duster that helps him absorb a lot of the beatings and loses fights a lot, needing to be bailed out because he's out of stress and consequences to absorb.
I mean, when you think about it, the existing consequence system is already meant to model, "Takes a lot of punishment, but keeps going." Remember that goons and mooks don't usually get consequences, and usually only have 2 stress boxes. So a punch to the face that would take out a mook is something that Harry would take on the chin and keep fighting. A bullet wound that kills a mook instantly is one that grazes Harry's shoulder as a consequence and he keeps fighting. A fireblast that would incinerate a Red Court mook knocks Harry across the room and concusses him, but he can keep fighting. A knife wound that would have ripped Police Officer McNameless's guts out is one that instead gets Harry in the stomach, misses everything immediately vital, and which he survives long enough to get away to help.
Remember, every punch the character takes isn't going to be a consequence. It might not even be stress.
Because when she doesn't have access to her magic, she's not nearly as good.That sounds like a compel to me. Just like when Harry finds himself under running water -- that's an aspect of his magic that is being compelled to keep him from using it.