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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: sinker on October 18, 2011, 06:43:17 PM
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I know, bear with me for a second.
Orbius is a magic grapple right?
Grapples can drag someone a zone as a supplemental action.
Bam, there's a completely RAW, if unnecessarily complicated way of moving someone with magic.
Has this occurred to anyone else? Anyone use it in play? Am I the last to figure this out?
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Now I'm imagining a really great scene where some hungry thing is drawing the players towards it's gaping maw each turn and they're all struggling to resist while fighting it.
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Thaumaturgy or some sort of Sponsored Magic necessary if you wanted anything but straight-line movement, I'd think. Evocation can't give you the full range of a grapple, just some effects that could be adjudicated as one. See the side-bar on YW251.
Fun idea for the beastie with the Come Hither mojo though.
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You'd be surprised at how easily a straight line can achieve one's goals, especially since one could force the target in one straight line, and then force them in another direction in a following exchange. And I see no reason why it's being a true grapple matters. It's an offensive block that is capable of moving the target, ergo it's close enough as makes little difference.
Now I'm envisioning all sorts of ways one could do this thematically. An earth wizard having the earth jut up to encase someone and then pulling them towards him. A water wizard using a torrent of water to force the target in a direction. Spirit and air are fairly obvious and less cinematic. The only issue I could see is with fire, though I suppose you could use someone's fear of fire for a similar effect.
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It doesn't matter all that much, I was just refining not contradicting.
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Hmm, now you got me thinking about Orbius again...
We had a discussion not long ago about rote spells and supplemental actions. In addition to the mundane grapple rules, there might be a way to work out an Orbius, that is not quite as powerful as the one in the book.
If you want to inflict stress or move someone you have in a grapple you have to take a supplemental action, reducing your might roll by 1. Why doesn't this apply to the spell as well?
The spell has an effective power of 3 AND it inflicts stress. The same grapple using might would need to roll a 4 to accomplish this. Doesn't really seem fair. Without the stress, a grapple is just a block to all actions, nothing wrong with that. If you want to use the grapple rules on that, reduce shifts as needed. And suddenly, if you want to move a target and inflict stress, it only has to roll +1 to break free, which should be easily done.
It would still be a powerful spell, but to be actually useful, you would need to put a lot more shifts into power and have less left for duration.
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What Haru said.
Also, why would you ever use a limited block like Harry's shield spell in a 1v1 fight when universal blocks like Orbius are available?
And why would you ever use a non-grapple universal block when grappling universal blocks are available?
And why don't you have to tag an aspect to activate Orbius the way you do to grapple normally?
And why can Orbius be extended in duration and area-of-effect when normal grapples cannot?
The words above should serve as a summary of the reasons for my hatred of Orbius.
But if you ignore the general awfulness of Orbius, your idea is pretty good.
As a partial fix for Orbius, I suggest having it not block any actions other than ones taken specifically to remove it.
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I'm not going to try and defend Orbius (Particularly not with Santaphrax's threats! ;)) but one thing may be worth pointing out.
I tend to interpret the "attacking spell determines defense" functionally rather than by desire. In other words, a block against all actions can potentially be broken by any action...which means the victim will likely choose his best skill to break it. It makes such wide blocks somewhat less desirable...and less effective.
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You'd be surprised at how easily a straight line can achieve one's goals, especially since one could force the target in one straight line, and then force them in another direction in a following exchange. And I see no reason why it's being a true grapple matters. It's an offensive block that is capable of moving the target, ergo it's close enough as makes little difference.
Now I'm envisioning all sorts of ways one could do this thematically. An earth wizard having the earth jut up to encase someone and then pulling them towards him. A water wizard using a torrent of water to force the target in a direction. Spirit and air are fairly obvious and less cinematic. The only issue I could see is with fire, though I suppose you could use someone's fear of fire for a similar effect.
Maybe change the skill. Trading Brawn(?) for Discapline when defending against fire?
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What would need to change for a "Grapple spell" to work and not be unreasonably powerful? One suggestion is that, when casting the spell, the wizard chooses whether the additional effect is to cause stress or to move (to copy the "supplemental-type-action" of the regular grapple rules) and pays a certain number of shifts to be allowed to do this. I think that one shift of power for one physical stress is too little, so perhaps two shifts of power. The same cost would be for moving a target one zone.
Using the grapple rules and the Supernatural Powers related to strength, one could cause more than one stress per exchange as well as being able to move a target more than one zone. This could also be allowed for the grapple done through Evocation at 2 shifts of power per point of stress or 2 shifts of power per zone moved.
Could the "move" and "stress" be combined, or is it one or the other?
An example:
Orbius v2.0
Type: Spirit evocation, offensive block; adjudicated as a grapple
Power: 9 shifts—3 for effect, 2 for duration, 4 for two points of stress per exchange after the first exchange.
Control: On the first round, roll Discipline plus applicable specializations and focus items
Target: One target in line-of-sight, inflicting physical stress
Duration: Three exchanges total
Opposed by: Target’s Endurance skill. Magical blocks might be effective in the first round; armor is ineffective.
Effect: The first round establishes the grapple. Each round thereafter, the target rolls Endurance. If the roll fails to beat the spell’s effect (Good +3), the target suffers two shifts of physical stress as he suffocates. Armor is ineffective. This spell does not affect creatures that do not need to breathe.
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Also, why would you ever use a limited block like Harry's shield spell in a 1v1 fight when universal blocks like Orbius are available?
To defend against attacks coming from multiple zones. Universal Block (or block on multiple types of action) are reasonable IMO given the versatility of magic shown in the novel, though I have to admit from as game balance perspective that adding the stress as well does seem a bit overpowered.
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I think you overlooked a key part of sancta's question. He specified in a one on one fight.
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As a partial fix for Orbius, I suggest having it not block any actions other than ones taken specifically to remove it.
It doesn't. By the description, the only thing it blocks is breathing. Adjudicated as a grapple doesn't necessarily mean treat it completely as a grapple, it likely only meant work the applicable mechanics that way.
That make it a happier spell for you?
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A lot of people seem to interpret it the way Sancta hates. Could someone refresh my memory of the origins of this spell?
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I do prefer that interpretation.
Even if it is still slightly broken.
But it does not seem to agree with everyone else's reading of the spell.
Maybe because blocking breathing doesn't really work. You can only block actions, as far as I know.
And if it's just a block against breathing, then it probably shouldn't have the "1 stress per round" mechanics that it has.
Really, the entire idea of a block that is resisted makes little sense to me. Blocks are there, and they do nothing unless you do something to oppose them.
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Everyone else is wanting to munchkin up then. As written it is only a block on breathing. Well, and possibly scratching an itch underneath it.
I really don't have an issue with blocking breathing doing one resistible stress per round. Thematically, it's sound and arguably mechanically sound since spells are allowed to block things other than movement and damage, like perception, sight, etc... The breathing thing sounds like it should be a rarely used side rule like falling but they didn't expect it to come up often enough to bother.
Personally, I don't allow truly universal blocks or grapples because I've yet to hear an argument for one that can block a non-spoken spell being cast by non-mental means other than running water or those annoying shackles. Also, I'm not that particular on how a block is described but I do require that it be described and I don't let fire-and-forget evocation do complete grapples (ones with all the grapple aspects) at all because it's outside their scope.
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To be honest I'm not arguing that Orbius isn't ridiculous. I was simply wondering what anyone thought of the idea of using a magic offensive block to move a target, since I haven't ever stumbled on any other way to move an unwilling (or willing for that matter) target with magic in the RAW. Does it seem balanced as far as shifts to effect (considering that at best you can only move someone the number of zones equal to the amount of duration)? Is there another way to move someone (I've always hated the whole 1 zone per shift thing as it seems like not enough shifts for the effect)?
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Roll it as a grapple as far as that goes? One zone per exchange unless you clear their defense roll by enough shifts to justify treating it as Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Strength. I mean it's not like they can't declare+tag something to grab on to for help resisting even if they have no other appropriate aspects to invoke.
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@The Mighty Buzzard:
I don't think the people reading Orbius as a block against everything are trying to munchkin up. They just read that it's a grapple and go from there.
It's more reasonable (but still slightly broken and a bad precedent and so on) the way you interpret it.
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@The Mighty Buzzard:
I don't think the people reading Orbius as a block against everything are trying to munchkin up. They just read that it's a grapple and go from there.
It's more reasonable (but still slightly broken and a bad precedent and so on) the way you interpret it.
They're skimming rather than reading then.
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Or are reading the rules portion as superseding the fluff description in circumstances when they would seem to contradict each other...
ie. Orbius says that it blocks breathing
Orbius says that it is adjudicated as a grapple
Grapples are a block against all actions
Orbius blocks all(/most) actions
...which is then easily justified in the fluff by explaining that, for most people, being suddenly and unexpectedly prevented from breathing will quickly induce a panic which will in turn prevent you from doing much of anything else effectively. Maintaining one's calm long enough to act allows for easy removal of the condition (via a hasty circle, simply prying the gunk off, or by some other means) as represented by its (relatively) low block strength.
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Good lord it is impossible to get you guys to stay on topic for even a second if Orbius has been mentioned.
Not really interested in how to balance Orbius. Just wondering if people think that a magic offensive block/grapple is a decent way to move a target, or if there is another way people have come up with other than the Rick Neal version (where one shift=one zone).
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Not really interested in how to balance Orbius. Just wondering if people think that a magic offensive block/grapple is a decent way to move a target, or if there is another way people have come up with other than the Rick Neal version (where one shift=one zone).
Yes, I think that magic offensive block/grapple could work to move a target (as I wrote on the first page). I am also using house rules for an Evocation Move action.
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Good lord it is impossible to get you guys to stay on topic for even a second if Orbius has been mentioned.
Not really interested in how to balance Orbius. Just wondering if people think that a magic offensive block/grapple is a decent way to move a target, or if there is another way people have come up with other than the Rick Neal version (where one shift=one zone).
Well of course it's fine for that. Too many canon examples for it to be otherwise. Harry's ventas servitas, Kumori's book yoink, bowling for vampires, loup garou as a wrecking ball, Eb's I see London, I see France, I see Lara's lack of underpants...
Offensive block and/or grapple seems about the only way to do it via the RAW, so that's where it goes.
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I am also using house rules for an Evocation Move action.
How do you work that out?
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Apologies.
I stand by what I said in my first post.
It's a good idea that will not work as well as one might hope because it's built on rotten foundations.
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Couldn't you try it with a maneuver as well ? Gust of wind aspect, invoke for effect to push ?
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Couldn't you try it with a maneuver as well ? Gust of wind aspect, invoke for effect to push ?
I don't see why not. Free tag for effect though since you placed the aspect on the target(s).
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How do you work that out?
I will create a new thread for this.