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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Korwin on April 22, 2010, 07:39:26 PM

Title: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 22, 2010, 07:39:26 PM
I'll update the first post if something gets changed or I got something wrong.

Changelog:
Big Hammer Ritual added



We use an Submerged Wizard as an example.
He took his Thaumaturgic specialization into Summoning and uses all his Foci Slots as Summoning Foci (+4 Complexity)
His Lore and Disciple are both Superb (+5)
So his Effective Lore for Summoning and Binding Rituals is +10.

The example will asume that the Wizards is in no time rush and wants to play it as safe as possible.
The example Wizard has still 2 free Refreshes to get better at Summoning/Binding or to diversify...



Summoning an Hellhound (because those are cool)

An Hellhound has an
Conviction of Mediocre (0)
Stress Track: 2

First step is the Containment Ritual.
Without an Aspekt and an Fatepoint the Hellhound can get an maximum of +4 on his defense Roll.
So theoretical an +5 Containment Riutal would be enough, but since we want to play it safe and the Wizards can use a Containment Ritual 10 without preparation we use an Complexity 10 Containment Ritual...
The Wizard beginns to slowly cast the Ritual (only +1 Power per exchange) so he isnt in danger of an bad roll.

Second step is the Summoning Ritual.
Since we have time, we use an Complexity 10 Summoning Ritual (cast again very slowly)

Third step is the Binding Ritual.
We have two objectives.
1. Binding the Hellhound
2. The Binding should last as long as possible (Time isnt allways available...)
We use 5 Shifts for the Binding and 5 Shifts for an extended duration.
The Hellhound cant succed against the Binding Ritual (without using Fatepoints). If he does use an Fatepoint, he is still Contained and our Wizard cast the Ritual again (which doesnt need preparation).
Lets say the Hellhound doesnt use an Fatepoint but rolls +4 with the dice. So he gets an Stressbox filled.
Our Wizard cast the Ritual again. The Dice are with the Hellhound, again +4. His second Stessbox is filled.
With the third binding Ritual he gets an mild consequence.
With the fourth binding Ritual he gets an moderate consequence.
With the fifth binding Ritual he gets an severe consequence.
With the sixth binding Ritual an exteme consequence.
With the seventh binding Ritual he gets taken out and is bound.

Thats an worst case scenario.

Lets count that where nine Rituals (and for none of those the Wizard got mental stress, correct?)
Those nine Rituals took 90 exchanges (how much would that be in real time?)
With five Shifts into an extended Binding Time, that Hellhound would be bound for 1 month (basis is an Afternoon, right?)

If the Hellhound got experience with being bound and would know that he had no chances...
The process would be over after the third Ritual (30 exchanges).
Even if this was the first time, I dont think he would take an extreme consequence...


Alternate third step: The big Hammer Ritual
Best posible Defense Roll with an Aspect invoked: +6
All consequences: +20 (mild, moderate, severe and extreme)
Stress boxes filled: +3
Extra Time: +5
Would be an +34 Ritual (34 - 10 = 24 shifts needs to be researched/prepared).
+2 for a sacrified chicken
+2 for an mild mental consequence
+4 for an moderate mental consequence
We need 8 tags/assesments for the remaining +16 shift.
We make Lore assesments for the right time (+2), the right symbols (+2), the right Binding outfit (+2).
We make Ressource assesments for better quality Binding chalk imported from Uruquay (+2), an fresh liver of an cow for the Hound to eat (gets into the containment circle) (+2), an Hardcopy of Wolf who Rules (http://www.webscription.net/p-473-wolf-who-rules.aspx) (+2), 5 different Objects into the corner of the pentagramm (1 dog mark with the Wizards name on it, 1 dog collar, 1 lash, 1 whip, 1 sedative) (+10)
We make an Discipline assesment for prober concentration (+2).
Lets count that would be 12 assesments, lets hope 8 of those will be succesfull (if more are succesfull, we save on the consequences)

This ritual would need 34 exchanges to cast.


Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 26, 2010, 08:00:01 AM
Summoning Chauncy

Chauncy has an
Conviction of Fair (+2)
Stress Track: 3

First step is the Containment Ritual.
Without an Aspekt and an Fatepoint Chauncy can get an maximum of +6 on his defense Roll.
An +10 Containment Ritual should be still enough.
The Wizard beginns to slowly cast the Ritual (only +1 Power per exchange) so he isnt in danger of an bad roll.

Second step is the Summoning Ritual.
Since we have time, we use an Complexity 10 Summoning Ritual (cast again very slowly)

Third step is the Binding Ritual.
We have again two objectives.
1. Binding Chauncy
2. The Binding should last as long as possible (Time isnt allways available...)

We could use the same Binding Ritual for Chauncy as for the Hellhound. If we do the Demon has to roll an +3 on the Conviction roll. If he manages that, he would need to do the same again 10 exchanges later. Ad infinitum, until he submits.



Summoning  Kalshaza

Kalshaza has apparently an
Conviction of Mediocre (+0)
Stress Track: 2

We use exactly the same procedure as with the hellhound.

Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: iago on April 26, 2010, 03:18:56 PM
Again, Chauncy doesn't get bound. He's not forced to do anything. He's summoned & contained. Kalshazzak on the other hand is contained/summoned/bound.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 26, 2010, 04:10:20 PM
Huh?

He didnt get bound in the book, but he could be bound.
Or did I miss something? (again  ;))
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Carabas on April 26, 2010, 04:57:04 PM
How do you arrive at the number of exchanges?
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: iago on April 26, 2010, 05:01:22 PM
He didnt get bound in the book, but he could be bound.
Or did I miss something? (again  ;))

Oh! No, *I* missed something. I thought you were statting rituals-as-found-in-the-novels. If not, bind away!
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 26, 2010, 06:16:38 PM
How do you arrive at the number of exchanges?

Per exchange you say how much Power you want to cast into the ritual.
The sample Wizards has 5 Discipline, so even if he gets an -4 on his Discipline check, he can cast 1 Power into the Ritual without fail.
The complexity of the Ritual says how much Power needs to go into it.

As long as the Ritual is = or < 10 the Wizards dont need to reasearch/prepare the Ritual (10 efficive Lore with the Focus), so the Big Hammer Ritual needs additional time for the research/preparation.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on April 26, 2010, 07:28:37 PM
Thanks for setting this all out! You also unintendedly(probably) answered my question about if you can use a single skill to make multiple assesements in a single spell ;D Which it appears you can so thank you very much.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 26, 2010, 08:16:12 PM
To be honest, I wasnt shure myself.

But since nobody said anything against it (including Iago), I think its correct.
Besides without multiple uses of the same skill, I have no idea how how someone should research/prepare high complexity Rituals (without sacrifying someone/breaking the law).
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 26, 2010, 08:50:17 PM
You know what I don't get about Binding? It's all based on Stress/Consequences and Taking Out the critter. Shouldn't Refresh cost also be a factor too? Two spirits with Superb Endurance have 4 stress and 2/2/4/6/8 consequences.  But if one has a refresh cost of -5 and the other -10 the complexity of the binding is the same.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 26, 2010, 09:11:05 PM
You know what I don't get about Binding? It's all based on Stress/Consequences and Taking Out the critter. Shouldn't Refresh cost also be a factor too? Two spirits with Superb Endurance have 4 stress and 2/2/4/6/8 consequences.  But if one has a refresh cost of -5 and the other -10 the complexity of the binding is the same.

Firstly, it's Conviction that matters, not Endurance.

Secondly, no, I don't think it should matter. Two equally strong willed demons should be equally hard to bind. Period. Now, usually, that'll equate to power somewhat, since imps are likely much lower Conviction than Major Demons.

Also, to summon a Demon you need it's True Name. Personally, I'd make that alot harder to find the higher the Demon's Refresh, since it's got more power and resources to suppress that sort of thing if it wants. And the -20 Refresh ones who want to be summoned and bound? Not a good idea to summon one of those.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: iago on April 26, 2010, 09:24:24 PM
Also, to summon a Demon you need it's True Name. Personally, I'd make that alot harder to find the higher the Demon's Refresh, since it's got more power and resources to suppress that sort of thing if it wants. And the -20 Refresh ones who want to be summoned and bound? Not a good idea to summon one of those.

Niiiice idea, Deadman.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 26, 2010, 10:05:59 PM
Firstly, it's Conviction that matters, not Endurance.

My mistake.

But still, a creature similar to Toot-Toot could have Superb Conviction and a creature similar to a Fetch could have less than Superb Conviction. Assuming no stunts or powers than provide additional consequences the low refresh cost guy would be harder to bind than the high refresh cost guy.

If we are only talking about a -5 or -10 cost then a True name may not be necessary. I can't recall, did Harry summoned Toot by name in Storm Front?
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 26, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
If we are only talking about a -5 or -10 cost then a True name may not be necessary.

In cases where a True name is required, maybe the refresh cost of the creature should be added to the Complexity?
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 26, 2010, 10:12:27 PM
My mistake.

No worries.  :)

But still, a creature similar to Toot-Toot could have Superb Conviction and a creature similar to a Fetch could have less than Superb Conviction. Assuming no stunts or powers than provide additional consequences the low refresh cost guy would be harder to bind than the high refresh cost guy.

Sure, but isn't that appropriate? A strong-willed imp should be harder to bind than a weak-willed thug-like monster, right?

If we are only talking about a -5 or -10 cost then a True name may not be necessary. I can't recall, did Harry summoned Toot by name in Storm Front?

Yes, he did actually. He makes reference to what it cost him to get it, too.

In cases where a True name is required, maybe the refresh cost of the creature should be added to the Complexity?

Why? Why should a bigger, stronger, but weaker willed demon be harder to bind than an imp of enormous will? According to the books, it's pure willpower, why change that?
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Biff Dyskolos on April 26, 2010, 10:24:36 PM
Why? Why should a bigger, stronger, but weaker willed demon be harder to bind than an imp of enormous will? According to the books, it's pure willpower, why change that?

Sorry, I meant bit as a reply to you suggestion:

Quote from: Deadmanwalking
Personally, I'd make that alot harder to find the higher the Demon's Refresh, since it's got more power and resources to suppress that sort of thing if it wants. And the -20 Refresh ones who want to be summoned and bound? Not a good idea to summon one of those.

Adding the Refresh Cost to the Complexity would model the "harder to find" thing.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 26, 2010, 10:31:46 PM
Sorry, I meant bit as a reply to you suggestion:

Adding the Refresh Cost to the Complexity would model the "harder to find" thing.

Ah, understood.

Honestly, that feels unnecessary to me. The name's only one detail (and thus +2 Complexity) anyway. No, the point is that, to get a Greater Demon's name you need to go on an adventure, a quest of sorts, or make deals with shady people that you know will come back to haunt you. It's not about making the ritual harder, or making it take longer, it's about the consequences of your actions, and how some things require real risk, not just work.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: iago on April 27, 2010, 01:14:29 AM
Yeah, I think the best, strongest suggestion here is essentially that the more powerful the demon (in terms of refresh), the harder the GM should make the research necessary to uncover its True Name (and other info about the creature as well, I imagine).
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: JustinS on April 27, 2010, 01:43:48 AM
Yeah, I think the best, strongest suggestion here is essentially that the more powerful the demon (in terms of refresh), the harder the GM should make the research necessary to uncover its True Name (and other info about the creature as well, I imagine).

I'm sure Chancey will be quite willing to trade names one for one. Yours for just about any demon you want...

You might also want to do enough research to make a good guess about its conviction, to make sure you can hold it. If you expected Erkel and got the ErlKing, you may have issues.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 27, 2010, 10:31:27 AM
Yeah, I think the best, strongest suggestion here is essentially that the more powerful the demon (in terms of refresh), the harder the GM should make the research necessary to uncover its True Name (and other info about the creature as well, I imagine).

And its finally something to use the Arcane Library for.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on April 27, 2010, 10:41:04 AM
And its finally something to use the Arcane Library for.

Well, there are always Lore based assessments, but yeah, additional library uses are good.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on April 27, 2010, 11:21:33 AM
I'm sure Chancey will be quite willing to trade names one for one. Yours for just about any demon you want...

Not shure about that, what if he where bound?
Would he need to give the information for free?
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on May 11, 2010, 05:34:26 AM
Secondly, no, I don't think it should matter. Two equally strong willed demons should be equally hard to bind. Period. Now, usually, that'll equate to power somewhat, since imps are likely much lower Conviction than Major Demons.

Also, to summon a Demon you need it's True Name. Personally, I'd make that alot harder to find the higher the Demon's Refresh, since it's got more power and resources to suppress that sort of thing if it wants. And the -20 Refresh ones who want to be summoned and bound? Not a good idea to summon one of those.

It works for Demons where you need an True Name.
Magical Constructs are more problematic (and work like Summons) you could have an -30 Refresh Construct with an crap Conviction.

My solution would be (and I'm thinking for using it with Demons too) Refresh cost x 2 is the base Summoning (Constructing) Ritual.
(Containmend and Binding Ritual would be still based of Conviction)
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 12, 2010, 08:03:43 AM
As a rule, you need to summon a spirit to possess a Construct to use it. I'd rule you need a really big, powerful, strong willed, spirit to actually animate anything with anything approaching -30 Refresh.

Now there is also the AI method...but again, I'd go with anything that potent rapidly gaining an impressive will and likely intellect.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on May 12, 2010, 12:00:23 PM
The Giant Scarecrow -25 refresh cost (in shapeshifting variant)
Conviction of Average or Fair
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 12, 2010, 09:20:05 PM
As mentioned in another thread, I'd up that to at least Good for my games.
Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Korwin on May 13, 2010, 12:33:22 PM
As mentioned in another thread, I'd up that to at least Good for my games.

And makes no practical difference if the Wizard can use the save third step.

Third step is the Binding Ritual.
We have two objectives.
1. Binding the Hellhound
2. The Binding should last as long as possible (Time isnt allways available...)
We use 5 Shifts for the Binding and 5 Shifts for an extended duration.
The Hellhound cant succed against the Binding Ritual (without using Fatepoints). If he does use an Fatepoint, he is still Contained and our Wizard cast the Ritual again (which doesnt need preparation).
Lets say the Hellhound doesnt use an Fatepoint but rolls +4 with the dice. So he gets an Stressbox filled.
Our Wizard cast the Ritual again. The Dice are with the Hellhound, again +4. His second Stessbox is filled.
With the third binding Ritual he gets an mild consequence.
With the fourth binding Ritual he gets an moderate consequence.
With the fifth binding Ritual he gets an severe consequence.
With the sixth binding Ritual an exteme consequence.
With the seventh binding Ritual he gets taken out and is bound.

Thats an worst case scenario.

Title: Re: How to Summon and Bind an Demon
Post by: Deadmanwalking on May 13, 2010, 12:56:08 PM
Potentially. It depends on how you read and look at the rules. Even assuming that's the case, your new minion will then immediately need time to recover or be pretty much useless until it does. Also, see the other thread for reasons why this is usually a bad idea. Two words: Diplomatic Repercussions.

Though now that I think about it, there's also the whole 'literal genie' problem, where your new minion is ordered to protect you from the demon, and immediately kills you since then the demon can't. That's a bit of an over-the-top example, but the kind of thing that's likely to be a much bigger problem for powerful creatures than the less powerful.