ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 11:18:31 PM

Title: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: darkfire14 on April 04, 2011, 11:18:31 PM
The Denarians are interesting antagonists in the Dresdenverse, but are all of them irredeemably evil? In an old White Wolf Game called Demon: The Fallen, not all the Fallen can be defined as "Cookie Cutter" evil. Some were true rebels wanting to spit in the face of God, while others were just "Swept Along" with the rebellion, choosing the side of Lucifer out of Loyality or because his arguments swayed them to their cause. Of course as they say, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

It reminds me of a Demon: The Fallen character I made called Alandriel, Angel of the Soothing Wind. She chose Lucifer's rebellion mainly because many of her close friends did and was suckered into believing Lucifer's word. And thus she got caught up in the Angel War, forced to chose Lucifer's side or oblivion.  The Abyss of Hell, took its toll on her sanity, but after her escape and merging with host, she realized her mistakes and joined the "Redeemers", trying to one day find herself forgiven by God and return to the heavens.

So in the Dresdenverse, are are the Denarians Evil Incarnate or are some just caught up in the flow and truly desire some form of redemption in the eyes of God?
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tallyrand on April 04, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Personally I would say that the Denarians are irredemably evil, however that doesn't preclude a good person using a Denarian's power.  In so far as games like Demon, you can still use those types of demons using the same rational as Demon: The Fallen, but the Denarians wouldn't have become the Denarians if they weren't very VERY evil, and that only happened a little less than 2000 years ago.  For something that has been around since the beginning of time, that's not a lot of opportunity to reform.

Note though, that doesn't mean you can't use them in a moral challenge for the characters.  You can have a particularly long sighted Denarian working to do good in the present knowing that it will cause evil later, or you can have a genuinely good person who uses the power of the Denarian coins for righteousness and (so far) has managed to resist temptations.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on April 04, 2011, 11:33:01 PM
The only evidence we really have on this point is the actions of the Denarians as shown in the books, and particularly Harry's interactions with
(click to show/hide)

In particular,
(click to show/hide)
Of course, any such claim from a Denarian to be good, evil, or even just purple should be eyed with great suspicion.

The idea of a Denarian who desires redemption, or who does not wish to reconcile with the White God yet is not truly evil, certainly fits within the Grey morality of the series.  I think it could make for a very interesting character and plot point, depending on how you choose to portray it.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 04, 2011, 11:39:56 PM
the Denarians wouldn't have become the Denarians if they weren't very VERY evil

Not that I necessarily think that any of the Denarians could be called even remotely 'good', but do you happen to have meaningful backing for this claim?
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tallyrand on April 05, 2011, 12:04:08 AM
Not that I necessarily think that any of the Denarians could be called even remotely 'good', but do you happen to have meaningful backing for this claim?

From my reading the demons who became the Denarians did so to allow themselves carte-blanche in f*ing with humanity.  Presumably if we're using a Christian like hell you have a bunch of demons working under Satan with the goal of defeating heaven in the last battle.  This being the case I would assume that, with only 30 spots available, there was some sort of selection process with Satan or someone in his high ranks making the choices of who gets in.  Since they would only choose those who will do the most to corrupt and or destroy humanity I think we can safely assume that the 30 who got in were the worst of the worst.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 12:16:22 AM
If that were the case, one would think that the Prince of Hell would have selected himself.

The angels (not demons) who became Denarians did so to allow themselves to meaningfully interact with the mortal world.  That most of them wished such access in order to negatively impact human life is not indicative of the intent of ALL the angels who found themselves in such a position.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: MijRai on April 05, 2011, 12:21:26 AM
I would say there are no non-evil Denarians. The 30 Denarians are the top 30 Fallen, that Satan himself kicked out of Hell to the mortal world because he was worried about them. Now, that doesn't preclude a Fallen getting to the world in a different way to be held in a coin and help a host for good to redeem themself.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tallyrand on April 05, 2011, 12:27:27 AM
If that were the case, one would think that the Prince of Hell would have selected himself.

The angels (not demons) who became Denarians did so to allow themselves to meaningfully interact with the mortal world.  That most of them wished such access in order to negatively impact human life is not indicative of the intent of ALL the angels who found themselves in such a position.

Satan has better things to do than to run around on Earth.  Also, demon is a common term for fallen angel, let's not turn this into a semantics argument.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 12:33:11 AM
Better things to do like what?  He can't access Heaven, and he can't access the mortal world at all.  What's he doing with his time that's so important and wouldn't be better served by escaping from his prison?

As for 'demon' vs 'fallen angel', the terms both in-world and in-game are quite distinct.  'Chauncy' is a demon, Lasciel is a fallen angel, and the two are about as different as Harry and Lea.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Becq on April 05, 2011, 01:22:08 AM
Christianity teaches that there is nothing that can put a person beyond redemption, so I assume that would apply to the Fallen, as well.  However, redemption requires repentence, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of the Fallen would repent, having become set in their ways since existence was young.  What we see of Lasciel (or at least, her shadow) does seem to indicate that such a thing might be possible, but (a) Lash is not Lasciel, and (b) any apparent act of repentence is likely to be cover for a betrayal -- after all, the thirty coins are the thirty pieces of silver which paid for Jesus' betrayal by Judas.

I think that a story based on the redemption of one of the Fallen would make for an interesting campaign.  However, I think that the sincerity of the Fallen should *always* be very much in doubt to the players, in order to build tension.  In addition, no social/mental/whatever skill roll should ever be allowed to sway the end result (ie, players should not be allowed to 'persuade' the Fallen to repent, no matter what they roll).  Such rolls might affect a momentary change, but the Fallen should remain a Plot Device.

At least, that's my take.  Your story might vary...
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Viatos on April 05, 2011, 01:48:22 AM
They've had a long time locked in silver coins to re-acquaint themselves with humanity, its beauty and its horror. A change of heart is not inconceivable - and it is worth noting that there are other changes of heart possible beyond a desire for redemption. In an exception-based kitchen sink universe, I'd say that penitent Fallen are both possible and in-theme.

Possibly relevant: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiAntiChrist
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 02:11:22 AM
I've actually wondered how close to classic Christian mythology JB is hewing on the Blackened Denarius. I did some research on the angels, fallen angels, etc, and came up with some interesting bits. It's a little far afield of the actual discussion, but it neatly answered the question for me; the question being "Are all Denarians evil?"

Incidentally, this is all based on a couple of research papers by Catholic scholars I dug up on the intertubes. I can't guarantee its validity, but it was certainly well supported.



Satan turned against God, and was cast down. However, he was not thrown into Hell, but was placed as ruler over all of the Earth. Essentially, he became God's dirty work man who serves to test the faith of mankind. Satan is a manipulator, never taking action directly, even in the last days. Incidentally, the Bible never calls Satan a fallen angel, or calls him/it Lucifer, though there is some reference to angels being cast down with a fallen angel associated with the Morning Star, a Babylonian king.

The first angels to fall were known as the Watchers, angels who were tasked to watch over Eden and then the tribes of mankind after Eden. They lusted after the women of humanity during Noah's time, siring the Nephilim, "who strode the land like giants." God flooded the world to destroy the Nephilim, and cast the Watchers into the Abyss to be imprisoned until the Apocalypse. They are led by Abbadon, known as the Destroyer, who serves Satan. The Nephilim were stripped of their flesh by God, and became demons, now existing as spirits to torture, tempt, and lead astray mankind.

After the Flood the 70 tribes of man were rules over by 70 angels, placed as gods (little G) over mankind by God. These god/angels quickly took to fighting amongst themselves (there are some statements in the Bible that suggest that the classic archangels, Michael, Uriel, Raphael, etc, were amongst these gods, though loyal to God). Many of these god/angels turned against God. Thus, Yeshua (now Jesus) was born, lived, and ascended. With his ascension, the god/angel rulers of Earth were removed from power and called back to Heaven. Any who refused would be considered Fallen and cast into the Abyss.



After that, the Bible isn't very clear on angels, demons, etc. Direct interference with humanity (by God, angels, demons, or Satan) was more the arena of the Old Testament.

What I've added on, in order to explain the Blackened Denarius, is that there were 30 of the angelic rulers of mankind who rebelled against God and wished to avoid being either called back to Heaven or cast into the Abyss (which appears to be basically a prison, and not directly related to the pit of fire that is the resting place of bad people). These 30 angels bound themselves to material objects (30 silver coins) using the blood sacrifice of Judas' betrayal and subsequent suicide, and became the Knights of the Blackened Denarius, allowing them to remain on Earth.

The Denarians originally had a goal, which was to short-circuit the Apocalypse. See, in the end times, there will be signs, until eventually the Abyss is opened by the sounding of the horns, and Abaddon, who is called the Destroyer, will rise and rule over the Earth for 3 1/2 years of destruction. Then Yeshua/Jesus will return, Abaddon and his followers (who I've decided are the 20 fallen Watchers and any other cast down angels, though they don't get mentioned again in the Bible) will be imprisoned in the Abyss again, forever.

In my Dresdenverse, the Denarians believe that if they can release Abaddon and/or the Watchers before the appointed time, they can prevent the Apocalypse (which actually ends pretty badly for the bad guys), or at least prevent the course of events that will end up with them all stuffed in a prison for all eternity.

Conclusion: In my Dresdenverse, all Denarians are bad guys, with a goal of unleashing untold destruction on mankind because they want to rule instead of God. Can some be regretting the decision after a few years, sure, but they all committed to a course of action that I think the majority of humanity would call evil.

Wow, that went on long.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 02:23:37 AM
Christianity teaches that there is nothing that can put a person beyond redemption, so I assume that would apply to the Fallen, as well.  However, redemption requires repentence, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of the Fallen would repent, having become set in their ways since existence was young.  What we see of Lasciel (or at least, her shadow) does seem to indicate that such a thing might be possible, but (a) Lash is not Lasciel, and (b) any apparent act of repentence is likely to be cover for a betrayal -- after all, the thirty coins are the thirty pieces of silver which paid for Jesus' betrayal by Judas.

That makes me think - while I'm not sure about a repentant Denarian (not impossible, but like you said, unlikely), I rather like the idea of an apologetic Denarian. "Look, yes, I'm trying to end the world, subjugate all of its people, and basically rule over a kingdom of blood and tyranny, but I'd rather not, really. It's just, it seemed like a good idea at the time, and now, well... I'm committed, man. You see?" Which, being an evil, terrible bastard of a GM, I would then follow with the horrendous death of someone important to the characters.

Maybe I just like smiling killers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil)).
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Haru on April 05, 2011, 02:34:42 AM
I believe, the denariens are capital 'E' Evil. However, they are not the only Fallen, so there could be plenty of material to work with.

I remember one discussion between Michael and Harry, where Harry explains to Michael, why the Fallen don't like entering a church (or "Holy Ground", I think he calls it). It is because it makes them feel, puts doubt in their minds about their ways, and after millennia of being sure of your cause, suddenly doubting everything you stand for, everything you are, must be really hard.

But what if one of the Fallen did exactly that? He imprisoned himself inside a church and the priest of that church works with him to help him redeem himself and maybe find forgiveness. He can't leave the church, because then he would revert to his old self, which could add some tension to the story (maybe the church is about to be knocked down, and the Fallen would then be free to do whatever). I especially like the idea of a group of players entering a badly lit room in the back of a ruinous church and talking to a shadowy figure that is later revealed to be a fallen angel.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 02:44:25 AM
because they want to rule instead of God.


You mean "because they want neither to be imprisoned for all eternity, nor to be subservient to a being they feel has betrayed them in favour of His 'younger children', ie. mankind".
The methods they have chosen, certainly, are not in the best interests of mankind, but then, they were here, first, and it wasn't the Fallen that set this course of action, but rather had a dichotomous ultimatum set for them.  They just responded with 'option C'.


@Haru
I believe the term Lash used to describe her feelings upon entering a church / holy site was 'homesick'.  Not that she regretted her actions, but that she regretted their cost.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Shecky on April 05, 2011, 02:48:07 AM
FWIW, WoJ (and no, I don't remember where or when; I only remember that he said it) is that the Denarians were put there by Satan because they were the top threats to his authority. That's right, these were the guys wanting not to rebel against an evil overlord and establish a peaceful and harmonious Hell, but to have the whip hand there. The coins put them in the unique position of being able to influence earthly things and people, however, so they have access to things that regular Fallen and demons don't have.

However, all is not status quo, as SmF shows us the definite possibility that the "Prince of f***ing Darkness" threw in on the side of the Denarians. It may be possible that Lucifer is either working a deal with them or is not as much punishing them as may have been believed. We'll see.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 03:07:36 AM
You mean "because they want neither to be imprisoned for all eternity, nor to be subservient to a being they feel has betrayed them in favour of His 'younger children', ie. mankind".
The methods they have chosen, certainly, are not in the best interests of mankind, but then, they were here, first, and it wasn't the Fallen that set this course of action, but rather had a dichotomous ultimatum set for them.  They just responded with 'option C'.

Well, you are welcome to such an interpretation, and I can certainly see such a view. I'm not using it myself, since the references I chose to use (which were primarily detailed scholarly analysis of Revelations, using other sections of the Bible to attempt to interpret those verses) don't mention jealousy. Basically, according to these texts, the angels were given direct dominion (as opposed to Satan's more ephemeral dominion) over mankind in God's name (twice!), they started doing whatever they wanted (twice!), and they had their positions revoked (twice!). I've basically chosen to not paint the Denarians in a sympathetic light (at least not as a group). It's a personal choice, because I love the Denarians as bad guys, and I want them to be bad.

That being said, if you want to go the sympathetic route, I think you could get real mileage out of a Denarian who is seeking redemption, or simply regretful about the path that has to be taken to achieve their goals. Personally I think the "it's all God's fault cause he didn't love me enough!" tact has been done to death, though. Then again, my players (well, former players, my group recently suffered catastrophic failure) tend to be disturbingly savvy in noticing uses of common memes and cliches, and I like to surprise them.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 03:14:32 AM
FWIW, WoJ

I'm going to need a translation of this, I'm not familiar with the forum abbreviations for Dresden Files stuff.

However, all is not status quo, as SmF shows us the definite possibility that the "Prince of f***ing Darkness" threw in on the side of the Denarians. It may be possible that Lucifer is either working a deal with them or is not as much punishing them as may have been believed. We'll see.

Can you point me in the direction of the section that indicates this? Not challenging, I'm just interested (I did mention I love the Denarians as a bad guy, right?).

Now that I think of it, I wonder if my ebook reader will search through the book texts... that might turn up some fun tidbits.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on April 05, 2011, 03:23:45 AM
FWIW = For What It's Worth.

WoJ = Word of Jim.  It means that Jim posted something on the subject.

There's someone on the Spoilers board who has gathered up all of Jim's posts on the Dresden Files and organised them.  Head to the spoiler's board and you'll find it - it's a sticky post.

SmF = Small Favors.  Harry looks at something that happened there and knows that no mortal agency could have done it - and that includes the mortal host of a Denarian.  In short, he finds evidence that the Big Evil Guy acted on Earth.

Small Favors (where Dresden is talking to one of Denarians) and The Warrior (where Dresden gets a bit of the other side's point of view) really add to this discussion.  I'd urge everyone to read (or re-read) those two bits.

Richard
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Viatos on April 05, 2011, 03:25:16 AM
Ninja'd while typing it out! And much more detailed then my explanation! Nice.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 03:29:44 AM
Thanks! I'd forgotten about that WoJ section.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 03:43:20 AM
I've basically chosen to not paint the Denarians in a sympathetic light (at least not as a group). It's a personal choice, because I love the Denarians as bad guys, and I want them to be bad.

That being said, if you want to go the sympathetic route, I think you could get real mileage out of a Denarian who is seeking redemption, or simply regretful about the path that has to be taken to achieve their goals.

I suppose I just don't see a necessary disconnect between 'sympathetic light' and 'bad guys'.  That 'sympathetic light' might be limited a bit when you're talking about an entity that's planning what will, coincidentally, result in the cataclysmic destruction of human society, but I find 'they're doing evil because they're evil' to be rather less engrossing.
Similarly, I don't think I'd ever have one of the Fallen truly, definitively, seeking Redemption, mostly because for a being as old as time, Redemption is a bit of a long-term project, beyond the scope of most Dresden campaigns (they might SEEM to be seeking redemption, but I don't think I'd ever have their ultimate success, or even the good faith of their efforts, definitively confirmed)
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 05, 2011, 03:51:49 AM
I suppose I just don't see a necessary disconnect between 'sympathetic light' and 'bad guys'.  That 'sympathetic light' might be limited a bit when you're talking about an entity that's planning what will, coincidentally, result in the cataclysmic destruction of human society, but I find 'they're doing evil because they're evil' to be rather less engrossing.

I was going to say I agree on the "evil for evil's sake" statement, since what the Denarians want in my Dresdenverse is evil primarily to humanity and certain forces of Good (big G), and probably perfectly reasonable to incredibly powerful beings from the beginning of time. My point focuses more on the "Denarian agenda" as evil, rather than the individuals. I think we're arguing semantics, really. To address the OP's original point, I personally wouldn't have a "good Denarian," but I think a ton of fun could be had with a Denarian who isn't straight up cackling, kitten-eating evil, but is instead behaving in a way that is at least, on the surface, being good, with a much more complicated reason.

So, yes, I guess you could have a "goodish Denarian" anyway.

What were we talking about again?

... Incidentally, this makes me want to start a topic about Evil for Evil's Sake in reference to certain entities that essentially Are What They Are.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 04:01:55 AM
I was going to say I agree on the "evil for evil's sake" statement, since what the Denarians want in my Dresdenverse is evil primarily to humanity and certain forces of Good (big G), and probably perfectly reasonable to incredibly powerful beings from the beginning of time. My point focuses more on the "Denarian agenda" as evil, rather than the individuals. I think we're arguing semantics, really.

So long as we remember that the primary distinction between 'capital-G-Good' and 'capital-E-Evil' in such a case is, first and foremost, the team they're playing for, and not their goals, or even necessarily their means (there are plenty of examples of the White God engaging some pretty nasty means in the Old Testament).

To address the OP's original point, I personally wouldn't have a "good Denarian," but I think a ton of fun could be had with a Denarian who isn't straight up cackling, kitten-eating evil, but is instead behaving in a way that is at least, on the surface, being good, with a much more complicated reason.

So, yes, I guess you could have a "goodish Denarian" anyway.

Or at least a 'Denarian that seems to be acting as a 'good' entity would, but it IS a Denarian, so you really should still expect it to stab you in the back at the worst possible moment, no matter how many times it neglects to take you up on what seems to be such an opportunity'.

What were we talking about again?

... Incidentally, this makes me want to start a topic about Evil for Evil's Sake in reference to certain entities that essentially Are What They Are.

I think that's really the territory of 'pure' spirits, Demons, or Outsiders (or a combination, in differing flavours).
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: sinker on April 05, 2011, 04:17:35 AM
Here's a different direction to approach it from. Do they have Refresh?
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 04:24:38 AM
They have a Refresh value.



...



(Oh.  Right...It's almost certainly negative.)
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 05, 2011, 05:21:19 AM
Well, since the Denarians are the holders of the coins I would say it's perfectly possible for one of the coin holders to be non-evil, at least temporarily by maintaining a positive refresh while still dangling the occasional bit of tractability before the Fallen residing in the coin.  As for the Fallen itself?  Not so much.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 05, 2011, 05:38:50 AM
Just because you have a positive refresh level doesn't mean you're 'non-evil', it just means that you have choice.  And among the options such choice affords you is Evil.  And, as a result of having that choice, get even less sympathy if you take those options than a being that is evil because being evil is simply a part of their nature.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Contrarius on April 05, 2011, 07:54:41 AM
Woops, didn't notice where I was posting this. Nevermind!
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 05, 2011, 12:26:13 PM
Quote
Just because you have a positive refresh level doesn't mean you're 'non-evil', it just means that you have choice.  And among the options such choice affords you is Evil.  And, as a result of having that choice, get even less sympathy if you take those options than a being that is evil because being evil is simply a part of their nature.

Granted, but in the case of the Denarians maintaining a positive refresh value is a necessary precondition to being non-evil. 

In addition, it seems to be necessary for the holder of one of the coins to play ball, at least to an extent, with the Fallen.  Lash could manipulate Harry's perceptions, causing staggering pain and inflicting potentially deadly illusions, and that was just the shadow of Lasciel.  I'm sure a full-blown Fallen would be orders of magnitude harder to resist.

So yes, I suppose it's possible for one of the Denarians (again, the human holder, not the Fallen) to remain non-evil, provided they walk a very fine line, and probably provided that they bring something impressive to the table before the coin is taken into account.  I imagine some of the Fallen would be more willing to be patient with a truculently moral bearer if the eventual payoff was impressive enough.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: zaq.hack on April 05, 2011, 02:59:29 PM
Another approach:

A "shadow" may have Free Will. As "malleable" as the stuff which contains the shadow, or some such line. This is not defined explicitly, but I would say the longer the "copy" lived in the host, the more chance of straying from the original.

A Denarian is evil. While an interesting plot point akin to something in a Simon R Green novel, there has to be a line, somewhere. To make a Denarian change sides would be messing with a precious few artifacts (30) in a way that would not normally make sense. The Swords of the Cross "can't be used for evil" or they are unmade. A Denarian that reaches redemption ... I would similarly "unmake" and remove from the world (re-ascend?).

A character who is living with a "demonic copilot" could be persuasive enough to overcome the shadow. However ... the forces of darkness are always willing to help, and the more a player drew upon that power, the more I would compel them in morally gray situations.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 05, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
If you're saying that the Fallen are evil and will remain so I agree wholeheartedly.  It's a settled fact that they gain power from suffering and misery, and seek to use that power to overthrow the order of the universe.  There's really no room for compromise there.

However, the Fallen are not the Denarians.  The Order of the Blackened Denarius is comprised of those men and women who bear the coins.  Every one of them is capable, in theory, of giving up their coin and repenting the evil they've done.

Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Compass Rose on April 05, 2011, 04:43:16 PM
IIRC, there are cases where the Fallen have just bulled ahead and taken over the Denarian (the host who picked up their coin) and thus, the human who once occupied that body has no say whatsoever in the actions taken after he/she has been subjugated. Therefore, just because the human host WANTS to not be evil, or has plans to use the Fallen's powers for good, doesn't mean that's what is going to happen once they accept becoming a host.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 05, 2011, 04:49:02 PM
Yeah, Ursiel's host definitely seemed to be pretty well dominated, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have asserted control and given up the coin had he believed he was capable of doing so and possessed the Conviction to make it stick.  We don't really know what happened between the Yukon gold rush and that night in a Chicago alley, but it probably involved Ursiel inflicting unbearable mental agony on Rasmussen over the course of years until it got to the point where the host believed he no longer had control.  

In Ursiel's case I doubt there was ever a chance for his host to effect some good, or at least non-evil, with the power of the coin.  Over the course of the books various characters expand on the tactics employed by the various Fallen to control their hosts.  Some are interested in a partnership, others prefer to simply overwhelm and dominate the coin bearer.  If a person comes into possession of one of the subtler Fallen's coins it would probably be possible to do some good in the short run. 
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on April 05, 2011, 07:55:56 PM
I can see a Denarian who doesn't think he is evil.  One that uses his powers for the general good.  Saving lives, making the world a better place...

And seeing things that way because he doesn't have the foresight of Galadriel.  Yes, that's a LotR reference.  When offered the one ring Galadriel was tempted because she knew she could use it for good, but she would slowly slide down the slope until the Dark Lady Galadriel replaced the Dark Lord Sauron as the tyrant of Middle Earth.

When she chose not to take the ring, she knew she was sealing her people's fate.  That they would diminish and leave their beloved woods to go West.

But she was very wise woman.  If you touched a coin and refused the offers of the Fallen, would you change your mind to save a child's life? Especially if you had "beaten it down"? And the Fallen would give you all the power to do good, knowing that when you succumbed to the power you would be bringing a lot good people down with you.

But a reformed Fallen has no place in the canon - they've had 2000 years for mortals to try to reform them and nothing's worked yet.

Richard
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Marganma on April 05, 2011, 08:19:00 PM
Well,
(click to show/hide)
so redemption is certainly possible for a human being that renounced the coin.
And maybe some holder might be the dominant partner (or at least the clever one) and use the demon for the greater good. Or so he thinks. But do the ends justify the means?

A demon seeking redemption doesnīt really seem appropiate in the Dresdenverse, but if it works for you, go ahead. Or maybe the demon just doesnīt want to destroy the earth and the human race - that might be a very strange bedfellow in fighting world-ending or humanity-destroying fiends.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: ZMiles on April 05, 2011, 11:06:42 PM
Or possibly a Denarian wants to do something he (or DF God) would see as evil but the carrier or player wouldn't. Suppose a Denarian says, "That God fellow seems to want to be worshipped, so to fight him I'll work on stopping people from wanting to worship." Perhaps the Denarian promotes policies that lead to a more secularized society, or even perhaps promotes philanthropic organizations that crowd out those run by the Church. He might see it as a victory if a church community center closed due to a secular (or a heretical/apostate/other faith) organization crowding them out, even if it was better at helping humans. Such a Denarian could perhaps be evil from the 'opposed to God' perspective, but might not be considered evil from a human perspective.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 06, 2011, 09:01:38 PM
For clarification, my arguments earlier were primarily using the term "denarian" to refer to the Fallen in the coin, rather than the symbiotic organism created from a mortal + coin situation. So if you go back and replace Denarian with "Coin-Bound Fallen" in all my posts, it would make more sense, I suppose.

Yes, I definitely think a Denarian coin-bearer could be good, at least in the short term, but I think a Denarian spirit (the Fallen, specifically) could at best be a slightly sympathetic character on the path of evil.

Interesting semi-side note, there is nothing in the Bible about angels getting redemption. That bit is strictly for the humans, who were created with freedom of choice. Then again, it's an interesting conundrum as to how the angels were created to serve, without choice, yet seemed pretty good at choosing to rebel. Hrm.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: TheMouse on April 07, 2011, 12:26:03 AM
While I think it's pretty inevitable that one of the Fallen would be evil, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are maliciously evil.

See, the Fallen are caught in a bad place. They've missed their chance to serve in Heaven forever and always. Now they're stuck with the choice of ending up in the Abyss forever, or trying to beat the system. They don't necessarily need to want to do terrible things to humanity, but could simply be in the position that they have to do such things in order to survive.

So the Denarian created by the union of such a Fallen and a human host might not actually be a terrible person every moment of every day. They just have to do certain things to try to bring about a positive outcome for themselves. This periodically requires the slaughter of innocents, but that doesn't have to be the daily MO.

Interesting semi-side note, there is nothing in the Bible about angels getting redemption. That bit is strictly for the humans, who were created with freedom of choice.

Yeah, this is a common topic when angels and demons are involved. There's a pretty good rant on exactly this topic by an angel in the movie Dogma.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Viatos on April 07, 2011, 04:16:55 AM
It IS interesting, isn't? That a race of servants could be capable of falling at all? Perhaps there's more going on then meets the eye - perhaps the White God does, indeed, have a Plan at work, say to breed a champion not of Heaven or Hell but of humanity, to shield them in the coming age - the one where Downbelow and Heaven finally start scrapping for keeps. Perhaps this champion has no relation to the White God's endless war for dominion over mortal souls, but is instead a contingency plan, a shield to be set against the worst - Downbelow's victory, an incursion from Outside, or some unforeseen upheaval where, say, Faerie decides that ganking God is in its best interests.

So, take an angel, a being of perfect virtue, and tear something in it; leave a weak spot, an open wound into which corruption can slither, driving it to Fall with the rest already corrupted (as to how that happens, who knows? Maybe there's an even bigger Plan. Or maybe the Morningstar WASN'T an angel - maybe it was an Outsider with the same thematics as the White God, cast down and inverted, seriously pissed off and looking to tear down everything the big guy wants to build up). Let it drown in darkness, see the worst of everything, slide its essence into a tarnished silver coin so that it can make war against everything it was made to serve and defend.

But leave a secret in its heart: the power to heal that torn spiritual ligament, even as warped and stretched as it has become, just as mortal muscle strengthens. All it needs is the faith to restore it, stronger and better then before - but of course, faith is not something the Fallen have much access to. So let it wander from host to host, reaping death and suffering, always feeling faintly that something is missing - until it finds a bearer unlike any before, one with the Conviction and Discipline to stand against its vast evil, to shine a light through that obfuscating shadow, right to the forgotten core of it.

It'll be a harrowing journey from there to redemption, but what's a PC without angst and long background arcs?
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 08, 2011, 01:36:44 AM
It'll be a harrowing journey from there to redemption, but what's a PC without angst and long background arcs?

You know, I think that would actually be a really interesting character. A little demon within, maybe set it up a little like a changeling... hmm... yeah, that could be fun. I'm going to have to work something up for that, even if it's only as an NPC.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: hank the ancient on April 08, 2011, 05:22:00 AM
If we're talking mythology, Denarians aren't the first, second or possibly even last of group of the fallen angels. First lucifer's crew was thrown out, then the ophanim incident, & denarians became a group around the time of the crucifiction. More angels could have been thrown out since then. So maybe an angel that's really an ok guy gets in trouble, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, is thrown out, then finds a human host in a manner somewhat reminiscent of the denarians.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 12:16:05 PM
Well, the Fallen inside the coins (I'm sorry to flog this, but there's a distinction) are probably from Lucifer's original crew.  I forget when it's brought up, but the 30 angels that got to go play in the mortal world are all ones that Lucifer was at least nervous about as potential threats to him.  My interpretation was that since the White God exercised his power during the crucifixion Lucifer was able to respond.

Oh, and Anduriel, Nic's Fallen, was Lucifer's battle captain during the fall (close to a direct quote from Father Forthill I think).
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 08, 2011, 09:07:22 PM
This is my outline for the denarian-seeking-redemption idea sparked earlier by Viatos. The skills, powers, and stunts could be shifted around pretty easily, I'd say, I just tossed some together.

Quote
High Concept: Denarian Biker Seeking Redemption
Trouble: Slippery Slope
Aspects: I Can Do Bad By Myself; Mad Wrench Is Mad With A Wrench; Knowledge Of Hell At My Command; Long, Hard Road; O.F.F.O - Outlaw Forever, Forever Outlaw

Skills:
Superb: (2) Craftsmanship, Fists
Great: (2) Driving, Intimidation
Good: (2) Conviction, Endurance
Fair: (3) Discipline, Athletics, Lore
Average: (5) Might, Guns, Lore, Resources, Weapons

Powers:
(-1) Demonic Copilot
(-2) Inhuman Recovery
(+1) The Catch: Swords of the Cross
(-6) Modular Abilities (4 Refresh worth)

Stunts:
(Craftsmanship) Bike Mechanic: +2 on Craftsmanship whenever dealing with a motorcycle or other bike, +1 on other personal vehicles (boats, cars, trucks, small aircraft).

Power Level: Submerged
Total Refresh: 1

------

Background: Son of rural farmers, raised in southern Illinois on a soybean farm. The farm eventually went under and was bought by an agricultural corporation. The family lost everything and ended up living poor in Chicago. Though he was intelligent, he did poorly in school due to discipline and anger issues. He eventually dropped out of school and went to work as a mechanic. It wasn't long before his talent fixing motorcycles go him involved with the Outlaws MC "one-percenter" outlaw motorcycle gang, where his instinct with mechanical things, impressive strength and durability, and disregard for rules served him well.

"I Can Do Bad By Myself"

Rising Conflict: Descended into an orgy of violence, sex, and drugs, becoming so vicious he was called Mad Wrench (for his trademark of beating offenders with a 2 ft. wrench and his ability to fix his constantly breaking down bike) and placed into the SS, the Outlaw MC's squad of killers and enforcers. It also served to handle any "wierd stuff" the gang would run into, masking it behind the other violence regularly committed by them. During a conflict with RCVs, his natural ferocity and rage were noticed by the captain of the SS, Lil'Satan. He was taken as Lil'Satan's protege and eventually inducted into the Red Skulls, a secret society supposedly dedicated to destroying supernatural threats, but truly serving as Lil'Satan's personal loyalists. As part of his induction in the Red Skulls, he was granted the token of membership - a tarnished silver coin.

"Mad Wrench is Mad With A Wrench"

First Story: Too independent to be submerged under the Fallen Guziel, he was still heavily influenced, like being permanently affected by supernatural PCP. Over the course of several years, he led a band of the SS in cleaning out a nest of RCV (connected to the ones mentioned previously) who had infiltrated the Chicago Outfit (mafia). He truly came into his own, the knowledge of Guziel and the power of the Fallen allowing him to demolish the RCV infestation.

"Knowledge Of Hell At My Command"

Guest Star: Preacher-Man 10 years passed, and Wrench became the 2nd in command of the SS, he and Lil'Satan ruling their own personal feifdom within the Outlaws. Lil'Satan implemented his plan, attempting to take over the mainstream Outlaws, starting with the assassination of their leadership, but Preacher-Man (a fellow Outlaw, but deeply faithful) interfered, the power of his Faith staggering the Fallen. Fully himself for the first time in many years, Wrench fled, finding himself in the poor, rundown neighborhood of his childhood, at his elderly parents' door. His parents were terrified of him, and his rage flared, ending in their deaths. Stricken, broken, he raged against his own downfall and the Fallen in his mind, who for the briefest of moments, expressed sorrow. Holy Man arrived with a few members of the SS; Wrench begged forgiveness, vowing to earn redemption. Rather than cast aside the coin, he seize\ds upon the brief moment of remorse, determined to redeem not only himself, but Guziel as well.

"Long, Hard Road"

Guest Star Redux: Smiley Wrench and Preach systematically set about destroying the Red Skull members of the Outlaw MC, aided by certain in-the-know members. Their pursuit of Lil'Satan took them to St. Louis, where the last of the Red Skulls were slain with the help of a former SS biker and RCV Infected, Smiley. Lil'Satan's coin was encased in concrete and sank beneath the Mississippi. Rather than return to the main club, Wrench, Preach, and Smiley received permission to open a new chapter, which Wrench dedicated to hunting down the supernatural (and sometimes mundane) predators. He hopes to do enough good to wash the blood from his hands, but he's still an Outlaw at heart, loyal to the only family he has left.

"O.F.F.O - Outlaw Forever, Forever Outlaw"

Thoughts?

Damn, now I have to start a new thread to make up a monster-hunting outlaw biker gang in St. Louis. Heh.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Becq on April 08, 2011, 09:44:49 PM
Interesting character.  First off, a minor point: "The Catch: Swords of the Cross" isn't a Catch, since Swords of the Cross already satisfy every Catch.  You should be taking the standard Catch of Denarians, which is "Blessed swords, holy water, faith magic, that sort of thing."

Another thing you might want to consider is that your background makes it very clear that your character is very strong-willed, so much so that he is able to hold his ground in a battle of wills against his Fallen.  Yet your Conviction is 'Good' and your Discipline is 'Fair'.  I think that at least one of these should be significantly higher to represent your strength of will (and Discipline is probably the better choice).

I think that your big problem is going to be that if your GM handles your Denarian correctly, you will be (rightfully) compelled by your high concept at all of the most story-appropriate yet inconvenient times, and assuming your GM does so at the right times (ie, mostly at times when accepting the compel would be very troublesome), you will often have a shortage Fate with which to buy off the compel (assuming you have any at all).  By this, I mean that if your GM compels you to kick every puppy you see, then you will end up with a lot of terrified puppies and a pile of Fate to spend on the Important Stuff.  But if your GM waits until a key battle against your Nemesis, when your resources are nearly expended, then offers a Fate point and points out that the innocent little girl hiding in the corner would make a wonderful shield to protect you against those sprays of machine-gun fire...

All in all, I think you might be better off considering battling against your Fallen's shadow, rather than the Fallen itself.  Perhaps your character pulled a Dresden, and has hidden his coin out of reach, and figures that he'll take on the Shadow first, then if successful they can confront the Fallen 'together' (possibly by 'corrupting' the Fallen with the redemption of the Shadow)?

Regardless of what you decide, have fun with the character!
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 09:54:12 PM
Question;

The Fallen gain more power by causing death and destruction. People like the Blackstaff and Harry Dresden save the world by causing widespread death and destruction. So why wouldn't one of the more reasonable Fallen like Lasciel give such a character the power to save the world? They'd gain more power from all the death and destruction caused by their bearers (which would be alot, considering Dresden annihilated an entire supernatural nation and McCoy has caused major disasters). They'd get to destroy evil supernatural beings that are not Fallen - and thus their antagonists in ruling the world. And eventually the good bearer would die of old age after a couple of centuries, with the Fallen having grown in power and obliterated many of his enemies.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 08, 2011, 11:12:13 PM
Interesting character.  First off, a minor point: "The Catch: Swords of the Cross" isn't a Catch, since Swords of the Cross already satisfy every Catch.  You should be taking the standard Catch of Denarians, which is "Blessed swords, holy water, faith magic, that sort of thing."

Technically, a Sword of the Cross can be a Catch just fine.

Quote
YS 185 - "If it is bypassed by something only one or two people in the world have access to or could produce (like a Sword of the Cross), you get nothing." +0

Same page - "If knowledge of the Catch requires access to specific research material that could be restricted(like a wizard's library), you get a +1." +1 (Since you could find out the Swords of the Cross are designed for anti-Denarianism with access to the proper information).

A Sword of the Cross does not satisfy every Catch unless a fate point it spent. If it is the Catch for a Toughness/Recovery power, then it requires no fate point spent to satisfy that Catch, any more than a fate point is required for a Sword of the Cross to satisfy a Catch that is holy items, etc.

But that's just being technical.

I figured since he's not completely embracing Guziel's power, he's less vulnerable to general-purpose holiness, but the swords are aimed right at denarians.

Another thing you might want to consider is that your background makes it very clear that your character is very strong-willed, so much so that he is able to hold his ground in a battle of wills against his Fallen.  Yet your Conviction is 'Good' and your Discipline is 'Fair'.  I think that at least one of these should be significantly higher to represent your strength of will (and Discipline is probably the better choice).

Yeah, that's a good point, though I think of him as being more independent than strong-willed. Keep in mind, the idea behind this guy is that the Fallen is also seeking redemption, it's just not very good at it and tends to slide, making Wrench's desire for redemption all the more important.

I think that your big problem is going to be that if your GM handles your Denarian correctly, you will be (rightfully) compelled by your high concept at all of the most story-appropriate yet inconvenient times, and assuming your GM does so at the right times (ie, mostly at times when accepting the compel would be very troublesome), you will often have a shortage Fate with which to buy off the compel (assuming you have any at all).  By this, I mean that if your GM compels you to kick every puppy you see, then you will end up with a lot of terrified puppies and a pile of Fate to spend on the Important Stuff.  But if your GM waits until a key battle against your Nemesis, when your resources are nearly expended, then offers a Fate point and points out that the innocent little girl hiding in the corner would make a wonderful shield to protect you against those sprays of machine-gun fire...

Well, I'm the GM, actually, I just think the character is an interesting concept. And I strongly subscribe to the theory that compels exist to create drama and make life complicated, not to punish or cause arbitrary issues. I'd never compel a little-girl-shield... unless said little girl was the bad guy's little girl, and the Fallen was going for the most ruthless and practical solution.

Also worth noting that I don't tactically compel - whenever a situation seems fun and good for a compel, I toss one out. PCs can either buy it off or roll with it, as they choose.

All in all, I think you might be better off considering battling against your Fallen's shadow, rather than the Fallen itself.  Perhaps your character pulled a Dresden, and has hidden his coin out of reach, and figures that he'll take on the Shadow first, then if successful they can confront the Fallen 'together' (possibly by 'corrupting' the Fallen with the redemption of the Shadow)?

Shadow has been done though, I want to see some suffering and angst! Lol!

Regardless of what you decide, have fun with the character!

If nothing else, it'd be a cool NPC!
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Silverseraph on April 11, 2011, 03:13:29 PM
Thematically, I like it.

From what I understand of Christian mythology, no one, not even Satan himself is beyond redemption. Seems to think that a Denarian would be the same way.

However I don't think the Denarians were the casual Satan supporters, I believe it is mentioned that they were all members of the army, and high ranking ones at that

I still agree that even they can be redeemed, but I would not qualify any of them in the Innocent Bystander category. However, there is an issue of power level.

DFRPG makes it quite clear that mortals have CHOICE and monsters have their NATURE, and that having more POWER makes you a MONSTER.

Denarians have ALOT of power and therefor are monsters and are therefore driven by their nature. Any Denarian who would want to switch should likely give up ALOT of power, if only because they no longer will be drawing upon Hellfire, and likely no angelic force is gonna let them back into the pool of soulfire just yet.

Also, if you had a theoretical "good" Denarian with all it's powers it would essentially destroy the entire purpose of the Denarian metaphor. Just like the ONE RING, it's a metaphor for what having great power does to the human mind. It subverts it and changes it to it's whim, if the all powerful coin your character keeps relying on ISN'T slowly corrupting his mind, then you have given him a super weapon for free.

I guess I am asking, why are you putting a good Denarian in a game? Is it for an interesting story idea about redemption and repentance? Good, I'd say tone down the power and makes it like a Bob The Skull kind of thing. Is it to get around the drawback of having full Denarian power? Then I think it's lame!

One final note,
(click to show/hide)
People have suggested they are lying, I believe they are telling the truth. Harry knows it too, but Harry sees down the line, It's a TRAP! He will rely on the power and then the price goes up steeply and the fallen has a little more control. And you won't be able to TRULY know you can trust them until it's too late and they all ready control you. They are drug dealers! The first hit is free, it's the following ones that you REALLY have to pay for!
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: pensivetoast on April 11, 2011, 10:44:29 PM
I think that the Denarians are evil, at least from our mortal point of view. They see what they are doing as being completely justified, and they have a cause. This is a dangerous combination, since they will do anything to further their goals.

However, more then thirty angels rebelled against the white god. I think if you really wanted to play a fallen angel, you could just as easily play a lower echelon angel who has his own anchor in the mortal world. You can really get those creative juices flowing and come up with something entirely new. Maybe there was originally more then 30 fallen, but only 30 of them bound themselves to the denari. The rest didn't for their own reasons. Perhaps, tired of being trapped on the mortal plane, some lower ranked fallen have gathered together to subtly oppose the denarians, hoping to win favor with the heavenly host and be allowed to return... 
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 11, 2011, 11:31:52 PM
Well, I suppose that from a mortal perspective it could be possible for one of the Fallen to be non-evil.  Depending on which version of the Old Testament you're reading God can be quite the cranky-pants, and it could be possible for one of the Fallen to feel some sympathy for the mortals that are usually God's punching bag, and want to do something about it.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Becq on April 12, 2011, 01:32:48 AM
A possibly useful quote from 1 Enoch, which is from the Dead Sea Scrolls (and is non-canonical).  Still, there is potential inspiration for a Fallen that isn't a raging genocidal megalomaniac.

Quote from: 1 Enoch
And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: zaq.hack on April 12, 2011, 05:43:48 AM
I'm surprised this topic has 4 pages of replies to it. It is mildly interesting, but I would not have thought it this much so.

I would have to say that "Fallen" implies making AT LEAST one bad choice. I don't think there's a "Shoeless Joe" who is "unjustly accused" among them ... though I think it would be interesting for them to try to convince you that hey were.

I also agree that "redemption" is a grand thing. For those who wonder if truth is stranger than fiction, I would submit to you the following (a friend from Liberia told me about this guy): http://tinyurl.com/5ybh7j  His story is absolutely unbelievable. I do not know if he will find redemption in the next life, but he has submitted to at least one war tribunal and been set free. He may be sent to the Hague before it is all said and done.

And so I share that to say this: If he has found redemption, who is beyond it? However unlikely it is that a person (or Fallen) may find it, it is still out there to be picked up for those who choose it ...
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 12, 2011, 06:14:27 AM
I would have to say that "Fallen" implies making AT LEAST one bad choice.

...or, rather, at least one Officially Disapproved-Of (tm) choice, which is very nearly the widest possible definition of 'bad'.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 12, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
If you want to have a good leaning Fallen melding with a character, put it another item other than one of the 30 coins.

Simple solution.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Peteman on April 14, 2011, 03:11:08 AM
Interesting character.  First off, a minor point: "The Catch: Swords of the Cross" isn't a Catch, since Swords of the Cross already satisfy every Catch.  You should be taking the standard Catch of Denarians, which is "Blessed swords, holy water, faith magic, that sort of thing."

Actually, you need to spend a Fate Point to activate that function, while this implies that you can hack away without need of that.

I guess +1 is a fair, since a well-stocked wizard will know of them, but getting ahold of one is quite difficult.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: Tedronai on April 14, 2011, 11:08:10 AM
The appropriate costing of such a Catch, let alone whether such a Catch is appropriate in the first place, is a point of significant contention.  Tread carefully.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: kamilion on April 14, 2011, 06:00:28 PM
The appropriate costing of such a Catch, let alone whether such a Catch is appropriate in the first place, is a point of significant contention.  Tread carefully.

Quite agreed. By it's nature, FATE, even as expressed within DFRPG, is open to significant interpretation. I wouldn't have a problem with such a Catch in my game, which is why I threw it in above, but I could see others having an issue with it. Can't even disagree with their reasoning, in their game.

There are very few hard and fast "Thou shalt..." and "Thou shalt nots..." in this game, where the rules are concerned. Even the designers rarely lay out a hard and fast law.
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 14, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
On the issue of redemption and free will:

Genesis. Humans were made "in our own image" (i.e. the image of God and the Angels).

Could that be a reference to free will?
Title: Re: A Non-Evil Denarian?
Post by: remission on April 28, 2011, 10:17:26 PM
Evil depends on your perspective. If you were an Angel, even a Fallen One, you would have a totally different viewpoint and perspective than mortals, having lived billions of years. Evil is something Mankind invented. The Fallen just dont like Humans and Gods plan because it puts us first. God gave Humans souls and Angels are nothing but soul. I might be a bit peeved too, if after a billion years of worship, he decides to give his love to something else and I would have to think, why should I continue to worship. After all, the War only started because one side of Angels decided to "rebel" , or not to do Gods wish.

From a humans perspective, they want to kill or corrupt us. From a Fallens Perspective they are just poking us with a sharp stick because they can.