ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Arcane257 on November 03, 2011, 07:19:20 PM

Title: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Arcane257 on November 03, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
Did we ever get something like an official ruling on this one?

I can argue myself round and round in circles for both sides on whether or not I think mortals using magic that comes entirely from an external source would warp you like mortal magic does. Don't get me wrong it certainly effects you, but in the ways sponsored magic is described as doing... the question is do you eat lawbreaker stunts as well?

Now I do think its pretty clear not all sponsored magics are equal on this point. I think the ones taken to enhance your own magic don't free you from the laws, but what about when you have no ability of your own? Doesn't that make wielding such magic about the same as using a gun/bomb/poison? Balance wise it seems to work because the player clearly has an additional fear other casters don't: IF I piss my sponsor off I go back to being a chump.

Any thoughts?

Also please remember that if we haven't gotten an official word on it all we have is opinion. I ask that you please try to be respectful of others thoughts on this. In other words as much as the idea of Dresden being a serial killer that murders Cheerleaders amuses me on some odd level, I would rather this not turn into yet another thread on the subject.  ;)
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: NicholasQuinn on November 03, 2011, 07:29:37 PM
I can see merrit in both sides of the coin. But I'd hate to rule that sponsored magic-users are free from the Laws, by default of not having their own power. Sponsored magic already confers many advantages, and whilst it has disadvantages I don't think they should be free of the Soul tarnishing affect. Although they're likely out of the White Council's jurisdiction goes, as far as punishing them goes. Non-mortal (or semi-mortals) are of course, also free from the stunt.

I guess it depends on one fundamental question: can a sponsored magic-user cast a spell they do not believe in;
a) of their own free will?
b) when it is demanded/needed of them, by their sponsor?

The answers to the above, would highly mold my opinion. Unfortunately we have not (to my knowledge) discovered the answers in the books. So I guess it is up to your table to decide.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: zenten on November 03, 2011, 08:54:46 PM
My opinion is that Sponsored Magic for Summer/Winter Magic does not confer Lawbreaker, unless you also have regular magic.

So the Winter Knight would not get the first Lawbreaker for killing someone with magic, unless that Winter Knight was Harry Dresden.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 03, 2011, 09:03:05 PM
Yeah, I don't think we ever did get an official answer. You could be the one to get it if you like though. Fred often responds to questions emailed to him.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: wyvern on November 03, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
I expect the official answer is likely to be "Go with whatever your gaming group thinks is right."

In my game, sponsored magic doesn't incur lawbreaker powers / penalties, nor does it hex things.  (Though the White Council's wardens may not necessarily be quite so discerning.)

In a game I'm playing in, sponsored magic is subject to lawbreaker issues (when wielded by a mortal), and does hex things (when wielded by a mortal).

Both of these work just fine; they're just different games.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 03, 2011, 10:59:13 PM
Quote from: wyvern on November 03, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
I expect the official answer is likely to be "Go with whatever your gaming group thinks is right."

He's usually pretty good about at least expressing how he would (or does) do it. He encourages people not to think about it as an "official answer" but since he has more knowledge about the setting than most of us, I at least consider it good advice.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: tetrasodium on November 04, 2011, 01:24:59 AM
I'd say that it might be a case by case thing based on the source of the sponsored magic and if the lawbreaking was at the request/desire of the sponsor (I'm assuming first law).
In Changes Lea tells harry something about the complexities f extracting payment due:
(click to show/hide)

I'd probably rule differently on killing a first law violation* to balance the scales of debt between the sponsor & victim, than one committed against a doorguard, even if in the process of balancing scales with a third party employing the mook. I'd definately rule differently if the victim was just some mook/villan unrelated or indebted to the sponsor.

* even moreso if other reasonable avenues had been first attempted unsuccessfully  & I painted them into a corner.

Can you give any details about the hypothetical situation
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Becq on November 04, 2011, 02:24:38 AM
A strict read of the RAW would imply that Sponsored Magic is still subject to Lawbreakers (the only important factor is that the Law is broken "with the use of magic").  There is, however a sidebar on YS236 that indicates that the Laws apply only to mortal spellcasters, with Sidhe Knights not counting as mortal (though it doesn't make it clear whether this referred to the metaphysical or Warden-based enforcement).  The next sidebar then talks storyline possibilities of the White Council deciding to enforce the Laws against Knights (this would refer to Warden-based enforcement, not necessarily metaphysical).

My own take is that Lawbreaking applies to mortals when using any form of magic.  Necromancers are not exempt, desite their use of a power source, but Sidhe Knights are no longer truly human and therefore *are* exempt.  But this is just opinion.  Tetra also has some good ideas.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Becq on November 04, 2011, 02:31:32 AM
Just found this, which isn't a direct answer, but there does seem to be the implication that a sponsor can protect from Lawbreaker stunts...

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24796.msg1233775.html#msg1233775 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24796.msg1233775.html#msg1233775)
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: NicholasQuinn on November 04, 2011, 05:59:10 PM
Quote from: Becq on November 04, 2011, 02:24:38 AM
Sidhe Knights are no longer truly human and therefore *are* exempt.  But this is just opinion.

My understanding is that a Sidhe Knight is human; which is in part why they are so useful for the Courts. This theory is backed by the fact a changling had to choose human, to become such a Knight.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 06:32:14 PM
That was kind-of the point. The Knights have to be mortal so that they can choose. If they don't have free will then they are exactly like any other fey and there's no point. If they have the free will to choose, then they are capable of doing all of the things that the fey can't.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 04, 2011, 06:50:16 PM
Quote from: NicholasQuinn on November 04, 2011, 05:59:10 PM
My understanding is that a Sidhe Knight is human; which is in part why they are so useful for the Courts. This theory is backed by the fact a changling had to choose human, to become such a Knight.

The Summer Knight and Winter Knights are humans who hold positions in those courts.  They possess free will and can do things that the Queens cannot do.

Sidhe Knights are Sidhe who are knights.  Think back to the battle scene in Summer Knight when you had those guys in full armour on horseback.  Those guys were knights.

Richard
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 06:52:44 PM
Are sidhe knights even relevant then? They don't really have sponsored magic do they?
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: ways and means on November 04, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
Quote from: sinker on November 04, 2011, 06:52:44 PM
Are sidhe knights even relevant then? They don't really have sponsored magic do they?

Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Tedronai on November 04, 2011, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: ways and means on November 04, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.

Some of them, anyway.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: NicholasQuinn on November 04, 2011, 07:07:23 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on November 04, 2011, 06:50:16 PM
Sidhe Knights are Sidhe who are knights.  Think back to the battle scene in Summer Knight when you had those guys in full armour on horseback.  Those guys were knights.

That certainly makes sense, however I was going on the Sub-heading "Sidhe Knights", Pg 52, Our World. 

Edit: Which, for ease of reference: implies the term is used for Winter/Summer Knights.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2011, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: ways and means on November 04, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.

Except that the original post is more about mortals using sponsored magic. The title may mention winter/summer, but the post really has nothing to do with winter or summer at all. If the question is :
Quote from: Arcane257 on November 03, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
I can argue myself round and round in circles for both sides on whether or not I think mortals using magic that comes entirely from an external source would warp you like mortal magic does. Don't get me wrong it certainly effects you, but in the ways sponsored magic is described as doing... the question is do you eat lawbreaker stunts as well?
Then immortals that use winter or summer magic are completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Arcane257 on November 06, 2011, 05:19:26 PM
Yeah I realized I may be asking the wrong question here. I am starting to think the right question is can no caster talent mortals outside of the knights be imbued with Seelie or Unseelie magic?

The knights seem to be a special case as they have their own "mantle of power" they gain when they take up the role that seems to have a lot of power wrapped up in it. So it seems to me that it would take a huge investment from ether court to imbue a normal mortal with Fairy Magic.

Can anyone think of examples in the books that would support a total non practitioner getting any sort of powers imbued into them? The closest I can think of is from changes
(click to show/hide)


So maybe to wield Fairy Magic you must be some sort of practitioner no matter how small and thus are subject to the laws if not a changeling, Knight, or Fairy.

Thoughts?






Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 06, 2011, 06:14:09 PM
In theory there would be ways to "pact" with a fairy lord for magic - and I'm basing that off of the other forms of sponsored magic.  That said, I can see a mundane having to perform duties in exchange for power.  Life altering duties.

A while ago I posted a Knight/Emissary of Santa Claus (at http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23084.msg991664.html#msg991664 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23084.msg991664.html#msg991664) where someone's life was completely altered when he agreed to be an emissary of Santa Claus.  He ended up with a variant of unseelie magic but his new office dominants his life.  That's the sort of price I see a normal mortal having to pay for fairy magic.

As for changelings, are they "human" enough to be lawbreakers? I think they are, at least until they make their choice to be true fae, but I can't make a strong argument over that point.

My view is that "lawbreaker/not lawbreaker" all comes down to "does the sponsor do the magic" or "does the mortal wield a small part of the sponsored power"? If the former then the mortal isn't working black magic - just serving as a vessel for it - and is no more a lawbreaker than someone using a magic belt.
If the latter, then we're back at why lawbreaker exists.  Repeatedly throughout the books we are told that a wizard can't do something magically that the wizard doesn't believe in.  That a wizard can't kill someone with magic unless that wizard believes that murder is all right - and in the game that mindset is reflected by the lawbreaker power.

Richard
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: sinker on November 06, 2011, 06:32:39 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on November 06, 2011, 06:14:09 PM
In theory there would be ways to "pact" with a fairy lord for magic - and I'm basing that off of the other forms of sponsored magic.  That said, I can see a mundane having to perform duties in exchange for power.  Life altering duties.

I primarily agree with this, however my thought that you could do so by exchanging one of many things, rather than simply a life of servitude. Perhaps an item of substantive power? How about all of your memories...ever (that would make for either a really interesting or really irritating character)? Anyway, my thought is that you could probably get away without being directly responsible to the fae lord, however it would alter your life in a significant way, and the fae lord is still going to be a part of your life regardless.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 06, 2011, 06:48:57 PM
Hmmm... I can see something like that working.

The Sidhe can't give something for nothing (everything has to be a trade) so if they will change your life by granting you magic then they need something of equal worth.  Your item of power (say one worth 4 refresh), your memories (and thus your old life) - something like that could be a fair exchange.

Richard
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: dudemanrocks on November 11, 2011, 11:08:11 PM
I don't recall anything from the books about users of (Un)Seelie Magic besides the Knights and Fae, but the game mechanics leave plenty of room for it.

I'd say those mortals do have to worry about corrupting there own souls by killing with magic.  It would be different if the sponser forced the action, bodily and mentally, but not if the the mortal is excercising free will.  Also, the Fae could definitely offer protection from the consequences... for the right price.
Title: Re: Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic
Post by: Becq on November 11, 2011, 11:15:19 PM
Quote from: dudemanrocks on November 11, 2011, 11:08:11 PM
I don't recall anything from the books about users of (Un)Seelie Magic besides the Knights and Fae, but the game mechanics leave plenty of room for it.
Dresden makes use of 'loaned' Fae magic several time throughout the series, including the use of Summer magic in the heart of the Winter realm.  Nothing that would touch on the Lawbreaking question, though, that I recall.