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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: OxfordComma on October 04, 2017, 04:06:59 PM
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I was listening to Changes this morning and got to the part where Harry does his Gravity Hammer spell at the temple. Listening to Harry's description of what the power of the Lay-Line he was using felt like, it sounded suspiciously like how Mr. Butcher described what a Dragon in his full form would be like. So, I wondered if the source of the Lay-Line under the temple could be one of the remaining Dragons???
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1. Outstanding user name.
2. I don't think an entity itself could be the source of a leyline, but I could buy a dragon's demesne or hoard hanging out below Chichen Itza. Quetzalcoatl was tied very, very strongly with Itza (Chichen Itza is a temple to Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan), and depictions of the deity as a feathered serpent sound an awful lot like dragons to me.
3. It does fit a bit with the Word of Jim on how Dragons (capital "D") are semi-divine beings in the Dresden Universe. There's one that says they're responsible for things like causing an ice age or splitting a continent with a river.
Good thought. It could be true. I have a feeling we'll find out more about Dragons and dragons later on.
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Consider the origins of the dark ley lines radiating from DR and it's a good possibility the origin of that one could be a slumbering dragon.
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Consider the origins of the dark ley lines radiating from DR and it's a good possibility the origin of that one could be a slumbering dragon.
I figured the Well was the prison, and the energy was tainted by the prisoners' presence, contributing to it and twisting it, but not the source. But, eh, I could be wrong.
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I doubt it. Just because something is described in a similar fashion doesn't necessarily mean they ARE the same. Not every headache Harry has, even if it's like being stabbed in the head by icepicks, is necessarily caused by the same thing. Sometimes he just has really bad headaches because he gets himself beat up a lot.
That said, if there IS a dragon there, I don't want to think about what all those sacrifices on its doorstep might be doing to it.
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Maybe... But there was also the weight of the spell about to me used, which was an incredible amount of power. Not to mention it was the center of power for the Red Court, and a bunch of heavy hitters were there.
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You'd think a dragon would've woken up and noticed the apocalyptic battle happening right over its head or the massive spell that went off.
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We also know that CI has been a nexus for power for at least 1000 years. I got the impression that the Ley Line Harry used wasn't the only one there.
On the other hand, what would be a better place for a Dragon to sleep than on a wellspring of magic (rather than BEING the wellspring of that magic).
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These were the parts that jumped out at me:
"...and the one beneath us was an enormous current of raw earth magic...I was immediately overwhelmed with a rush of images and alien sensations, contacting a power so intense and coherent that it nearly had its own awareness. In a single moment, I saw the ponderous dance of continents clashing against one another to form mountains, felt the slow sleepiness of the earth, its dreaming shivers felt as disasters by the ephemeral things that lived upon it's skin...gold and silver flowing hot in rivers... I was a frail wisp of mortality beside that energy that could, quite literally, have moved mountains, leveled cities, shifted the course of rivers, and stirred oceans in their beds."
Just sounded very much like a Dragon's job description to me. Or I could have fallen for another of Master Jim's red herrings LOL ;D
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I've guessed that the warehouse that the Red Court stored their sacrificial gear and athame at was a location of a prior Dragon's stash. Red's used it to help preserve magical gear etc. I further WAG'd that the Red's tripped a Dragon's death curse in using the New Mexico location and that such a curse played a
minute role against them in CI battle.
There is a WOJ about Dragon's and death curses for those that rob from their hoard's. Though same woj mentions that nobody has stolen from siriothrax horde.
1) What ever happened to Siriothrax's hoard? Did any of the magical powerups in the series we've seen so far originate there?
1) Heh, it's still right where it was. NO ONE wants to pick up anything from a Dragon's hoard. Talk about Death Curses...
So, I think somewhere the Red Court crossed a Dragon, and tripped up on it's Death Curse.
Regarding your supposition that the alien awareness may be similar to a Dragon, maybe. It's more likely that it is similar to Demonreach in that there may be a genus loci at that spot, one sleeping.
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I honestly don't think it's a clue or a red herring at all.
He's just describing things on a geological scale. That doesn't point to dragon.
If a dragon was there, you don't think it would've been interested in a vampire nation claiming the place at its seat of power? You don't think it would've noticed all the folks making a racket on its lawn?
I imagine the general rule about Dragons in this 'verse is "Don't bother them if you don't want to get slapped down." They defend their territory.
That doesn't reconcile with the Red Court just up and claiming a site that a Dragon is on.
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If a dragon was there, you don't think it would've been interested in a vampire nation claiming the place at its seat of power? You don't think it would've noticed all the folks making a racket on its lawn?
I imagine the general rule about Dragons in this 'verse is "Don't bother them if you don't want to get slapped down." They defend their territory.
That doesn't reconcile with the Red Court just up and claiming a site that a Dragon is on.
I think that:
1) Dragons really don't care much what people / vampires do.
2) I think it may be significant that the one and only time we've seen a Dragon was at a Red Court function where they gave him a very costly gift.
Or, as you say, it may not mean anything at all! It just struck a chord with me this morning while listening to the Audiobook.
What also jumped out at me this time was the Merlin's sudden change of tactics. For years his MO against the Reds was "defense defense defense", then all of a sudden he's talking about wiping them off the face of the earth. Hmmm, what happens in the book? The Red's get wiped out. Makes you wonder if Vadderung and he had a chat behind the scenes in this book. 8)
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I think that:
1) Dragons really don't care much what people / vampires do.
Dragons are prideful, and care enough to leave death curses on and defend their hoards. One of them cared enough that Harry sassed at him to knock him to his knees. Another cared enough to get himself some virgin sacrifices and make deals for power.
It really doesn't seem like one would just not care about a major supernatural nation setting up shop right on top of it, and claiming its site as theirs. Dragons have very definite ideas about what's theirs and what is not, and taking something of a dragon's and calling it yours is not wise.
What also jumped out at me this time was the Merlin's sudden change of tactics. For years his MO against the Reds was "defense defense defense", then all of a sudden he's talking about wiping them off the face of the earth. Hmmm, what happens in the book? The Red's get wiped out. Makes you wonder if Vadderung and he had a chat behind the scenes in this book. 8)
I always pinned that on the sudden lack of Peabody's influence on proceedings, plus the Merlin perhaps overcompensating in making up for that influence.
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Plus the Red's were so disgusting that they offended even Nicodemus's sensibilities, who wouldn't want to wipe out that kind of stain?
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A dragon may not mind a supernatural nation making use of the surface above his home, especially if he gets to benefit from all the sacrifices that they conduct there. If you assume that there is a Dragon there, some of the energy that they were generating may have gone to him, even if they weren't aware of it or didn't intend for that to take place.
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Oh, just from the title I thought this would be about one of the Grey Council members being a dragon.
There are still four members we haven't met yet (or at least there were at the time of Changes).
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A dragon may not mind a supernatural nation making use of the surface above his home, especially if he gets to benefit from all the sacrifices that they conduct there. If you assume that there is a Dragon there, some of the energy that they were generating may have gone to him, even if they weren't aware of it or didn't intend for that to take place.
How would it benefit from sacrifices to something else entirely? We haven't seen anything in the series that indicates sacrifices work in that fashion, that you could sacrifice something to one deity and another -- that the sacrificer is totally unaware of -- gets some of the benefit.
The Red Court wasn't "making use of" the site. They outright claimed it as their seat of power. Dragons do not just complacently let something else come to their territory and go, "This is mine now." That alone would've been an incinerating offense.
Why would a Dragon not notice that probably the biggest world-wide spell was going on over its head? Why would a Dragon not notice a war happening on top of it?
We don't know much about Dragons, but what we do know indicates they're not nearly this complacent about things happening right on top of them. In this case, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If a Dragon was there, we would have seen it in action.
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I always pinned that on the sudden lack of Peabody's influence on proceedings, plus the Merlin perhaps overcompensating in making up for that influence.
That, and I think the Merlin had political motivations, too; Cristos was the one pushing reconciliation in front of the Council, and it seemed clear that the Merlin doesn't trust him. I got the feeling Arthur knows the guy is another turncoat, and was trying to sweep his legs out from under him to prevent him from getting a political victory—while also securing a tactical one for himself.
God, I can't wait for the political crosstalk in Peace Talks.
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How would it benefit from sacrifices to something else entirely? We haven't seen anything in the series that indicates sacrifices work in that fashion, that you could sacrifice something to one deity and another -- that the sacrificer is totally unaware of -- gets some of the benefit.
Rawhead actually? That's precisely what they do with the butcher being none the wiser.
The Red Court wasn't "making use of" the site. They outright claimed it as their seat of power. Dragons do not just complacently let something else come to their territory and go, "This is mine now." That alone would've been an incinerating offense.
Why would a Dragon not notice that probably the biggest world-wide spell was going on over its head? Why would a Dragon not notice a war happening on top of it?
We don't know much about Dragons, but what we do know indicates they're not nearly this complacent about things happening right on top of them. In this case, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If a Dragon was there, we would have seen it in action.
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Rawhead actually? That's precisely what they do with the butcher being none the wiser.
The butcher isn't dedicating those animals as sacrifices to anything. The Rawhead just grabs the dead flesh, as I recall.
And even if the Dragon was gaining power from it, you don't think it would've shown up to defend this supposed source of power when it was under attack?
Let's be real here -- if there was a Dragon anywhere near Chichen Itza, there are a dozen reasons it should have shown itself during the huge, apocalyptic battle taking place over the huge, apocalyptic spell that was being prepared. The fact that no such thing occurred means that there just plain was not a Dragon involved.
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The butcher isn't dedicating those animals as sacrifices to anything. The Rawhead just grabs the dead flesh, as I recall.
exactly, plus a little power from each animal. Proof an intent isn't required for someone to gain from a 'sacrifice'/death. iirc Rawhead spirits themselves form around such places itself, they don't just collect the corpses. No preexisting entities.
And even if the Dragon was gaining power from it, you don't think it would've shown up to defend this supposed source of power when it was under attack?
Let's be real here -- if there was a Dragon anywhere near Chichen Itza, there are a dozen reasons it should have shown itself during the huge, apocalyptic battle taking place over the huge, apocalyptic spell that was being prepared. The fact that no such thing occurred means that there just plain was not a Dragon involved.
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You gotta look for the man behind the curtain with all of Dresden’s enemies. Who’s to say that CI isn’t the home of a dragon that was using the Red Court for its own ends? Jim is a self-proclaimed lazy writer and it’s very much his style to drop little things like that way in advance. I could totally see Harry having to go back and having crazy amounts of PTSD
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You gotta look for the man behind the curtain with all of Dresden’s enemies. Who’s to say that CI isn’t the home of a dragon that was using the Red Court for its own ends? Jim is a self-proclaimed lazy writer and it’s very much his style to drop little things like that way in advance. I could totally see Harry having to go back and having crazy amounts of PTSD
Again: Why didn't he show up?
If a Dragon made CI its home and was using the Red Court, why didn't it show up to protect its home and its investment?
There isn't any hint to a Dragon. He didn't "drop" anything. There's a vague description of the leyline having old power, but nothing that suggests a Dragon has anything to do with it.
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For any number of reasons. The time wasn’t right, it was just a small piece of a larger picture, a Xanatos Gambit. There’s lots of reasons why not. It could also be that it was asleep or wounded or otherwise couldn’t appear.
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For any number of reasons. The time wasn’t right, it was just a small piece of a larger picture, a Xanatos Gambit. There’s lots of reasons why not. It could also be that it was asleep or wounded or otherwise couldn’t appear.
The fight was happening right on its doorstep. Some people are suggesting it had an active benefit from the Red Court, or was even helping it.
That's the kind of fight you show up to.
There's no suggestion a Dragon is involved. Hell, there's no suggestion of a Dragon being involved at any point in the decade of Red Court war. And we would know. A Dragon is something that could take on Mab. If a Dragon were in the Red Court's corner, they would have won.
And frankly, I don't see how it adds to the series or the battle to have a Dragon "behind the scenes" apparently doing not a damn thing for the place that's supposedly its home turf.
Seriously, the threads these days are like someone is throwing darts at a board filled with random nouns from the series. "Hm, Peace Talks still isn't out, but we need something to talk to... so I wonder if... *toss, THUNK* a Dragon was at ... *toss, THUNK* Chichen Itza!"
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Almost as if these are...wild ass guesses?
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Lack of new traction keeps old wheels spinning?
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Again, consider 1 the source of the ley lines from DR
2 Consider that Dragons sleeping for centuries under the land is actually a common myth(iirc both Britain and Scotland both have such myths) and Quetzalcoatl, the origin of Kulkan translates as feathered serpent(aka winged)
3 Such dragons are known to only awaken and raise the land for specific, apocalyptic events.
4 that we KNOW a dragon battle is in one Wizards future as well as a Kaiju book event
I don't find it such an alien idea, perhaps little evidence, but that's an intentional thing in 'mystery' books. The overarc in DF is all about mystery and puzzling your way through it. There's plenty of things that we accept as 'factual' that have just as little evidence *cough*Simon*cough*.
Wish ppl would actually study theory and premise itself instead of basing it on sheer perspective.. Because there isn't ANY evidence it's wrong. So your making the same logical leap to decide 'what is' that he's attempting to put as what could be. Neither side in such a platform has an advantage really, but I know it's impossible to na say something into Oblivion, this isn't Merlin starring Sam Neil.... ;D
*oh and moving rivers and landscaping is exactly what Woj says Dragons could do, so that part I actually like.
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The thing is, when there's a hint, there's a hint. There's nothing in the passage quoted that mentions anything about Dragons. It just says old power. The power on Demonreach is old power, and has nothing to do with Dragons.
Speaking of Demonreach, when it was first introduced, the "mystery" was obvious. Harry noticed things that had nothing to do with the Denarians, and then he asked someone about it. That's what Jim does when he presents a mystery for later -- Harry notices it and notices that it's odd. There's some nod by Harry that something's up.
And how about Vadderung? He knew a hell of a lot about the place. He knew it was the Red Court's seat of power. He makes it his business to know things. You don't think he would've mentioned there being a Dragon involved if it was at all possible?
Also, Harry used the power of that leyline. If he grabbed onto a Dragon's power, the Dragon would have noticed. Harry didn't notice anything that made him question the power and want to look into it later, it was simply a power source he used, and then was depleted immediately after.
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The thing is, when there's a hint, there's a hint. There's nothing in the passage quoted that mentions anything about Dragons. It just says old power. The power on Demonreach is old power, and has nothing to do with Dragons.
The Ley lines come from literal creatures trapped in Dr... proof body heat can create a ley line.
Speaking of Demonreach, when it was first introduced, the "mystery" was obvious. Harry noticed things that had nothing to do with the Denarians, and then he asked someone about it. That's what Jim does when he presents a mystery for later -- Harry notices it and notices that it's odd. There's some nod by Harry that something's up.
Harry doesn't say anything about the old chapel and circle of tree's in Marcone's yard being the same mixture of Christianity and Celtic religion that Arthur ruled his throne with. Apparently you have to find the hints and interpret them yourself? Go figure right?
And how about Vadderung? He knew a hell of a lot about the place. He knew it was the Red Court's seat of power. He makes it his business to know things. You don't think he would've mentioned there being a Dragon involved if it was at all possible?
Vadd doesn't generally offer such info without a price.. How much did he even really offer on DR?
Also, Harry used the power of that leyline. If he grabbed onto a Dragon's power, the Dragon would have noticed. Harry didn't notice anything that made him question the power and want to look into it later, it was simply a power
Sleeping dragon who only comes out for purpose awakens and rages because a ley line was accessed? It's his body heat, not pulling out his soul and drinking it down to fuel your spell,
Also Harry knows what the Ley lines on DR come from, didn't stop him in CD, friends did. Looking at or feeling or even using a power doesn't give you a direct link with it's source, a hint at it certainly.
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The Ley lines come from literal creatures trapped in Dr... proof body heat can create a ley line.
We know that for a fact?
Harry doesn't say anything about the old chapel and circle of tree's in Marcone's yard being the same mixture of Christianity and Celtic religion that Arthur ruled his throne with. Apparently you have to find the hints and interpret them yourself? Go figure right?
I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
Vadd doesn't generally offer such info without a price.. How much did he even really offer on DR?
Considering by the time he was talking to Harry, Harry had already taken DR, and the subject they were talking about had nothing to do with DR, why on Earth would he say anything about DR?
By contrast, he was freely giving Harry information about Chichen Itza, the kinds of things he was likely to find and have to combat at Chichen Itza, and he himself was going to be at Chichen Itza.
Kiiiiiiiiiinda seems like that'd be the time to mention a Dragon at Chichen Itza.
Sleeping dragon who only comes out for purpose awakens and rages because a ley line was accessed? It's his body heat, not pulling out his soul and drinking it down to fuel your spell,
It's his power. Why would a creature who leaves a death curse on its hoard such that nobody will even dare touch it be blase about someone literally leeching his power directly from the source?
"Nobody can have my baubles, not even over my dead body! I curse it with my last breath forever!"
"Eeeh, sure, go ahead, random wizard, just drain my energy to attack my own territory, NBD."
Do those sentences really sound like they'd come from the same type of creature?
Also Harry knows what the Ley lines on DR come from, didn't stop him in CD, friends did. Looking at or feeling or even using a power doesn't give you a direct link with it's source, a hint at it certainly.
DR is largely irrelevant. How on earth would using power from something not link you to its source? Considering Harry keeps being told not to use the power at DR for exactly that reason?
Harry describes a power that almost has a kind of awareness because it's old. That doesn't mean Dragon. If anything, a Dragon's power would be more volatile and obvious that it has an actual will.
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We know that for a fact?
Yes, Harry intuits it, DR itself doesn't argue with it, GK an Vadderrung agree with it's dark nature. The ley lines aren't the island/prison. Harry uses power from that everytime he's on DR via subsidizing it, He's directly linked to that, not the ley lines power.
I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
Exactly, and neither of us saw what the OP saw. But both things are there and unnoticed by Harry himself.
Considering by the time he was talking to Harry, Harry had already taken DR, and the subject they were talking about had nothing to do with DR, why on Earth would he say anything about DR?
The whole key of CD's plot was the island dude ??? He didn't exactly offer up extra info, and he was paid there...
By contrast, he was freely giving Harry information about Chichen Itza, the kinds of things he was likely to find and have to combat at Chichen Itza, and he himself was going to be at Chichen Itza.
Kiiiiiiiiiinda seems like that'd be the time to mention a Dragon at Chichen Itza.
Because the sleeping dragon who source a ley line is important because? Did it come into play directly? Did it effect victory?
Here's an idea Kulkan supposedly fed upon/replaced the original right? Maybe he sacrificed Quetzalcoatl on his source of power to create Chicken Pizza in the first placed, meaning the energy literally came from a Dragon that's now not a Dragon, but still has the memetic value of a dragon?
It's his power. Why would a creature who leaves a death curse on its hoard such that nobody will even dare touch it be blase about someone literally leeching his power directly from the source?
See above, also, it's his aura, Aura's bleed off and spread out, get channeled into the magic flows of the world... Why is the dragon suddenly finding reasons to awaken when he's probably been there from before they arrived?
"Nobody can have my baubles, not even over my dead body! I curse it with my last breath forever!"
"Eeeh, sure, go ahead, random wizard, just drain my energy to attack my own territory, NBD."
Do those sentences really sound like they'd come from the same type of creature?
DR is largely irrelevant. How on earth would using power from something not link you to its source? Considering Harry keeps being told not to use the power at DR for exactly that reason?
These questions are illrevent, and it's cause the power would change him, and effectively be a boatload of tainted magic. Why do you think Merlin collected those things?
Harry describes a power that almost has a kind of awareness because it's old. That doesn't mean Dragon. If anything, a Dragon's power would be more volatile and obvious that it has an actual will.
See above... also, you can't unmake what's there by supplying an opinion. DR again, has no volatile will to it's ley lines, which isn't illrelevent, as it's a direct parallel with nothing which you describe.
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There's nothing in the passage that indicates Dragon. There's nobody -- not even the person who gives a huge infodump about the whole nature of the place and everything Harry's going to face there -- that ever mentions a Dragon.
The idea that a huge apocalyptic battle and a spell like that could go off right over a Dragon's head without it noticing makes no sense to me. That there could be a Dragon there and Vadderung wouldn't even bother to mention the possibility makes no sense to me.
The idea that a Dragon would let something else claim its territory as theirs doesn't fit with what we know of Dragons, especially not one that supposedly supplies enough bleed off power to create its own leyline. They hoard things, and jealously guard them. They're so jealous in their guarding that they'll use their death curses to make sure nobody steals what's theirs even after they're long dead. That completely goes against the idea that one would let another supernatural nation just squat on its home and claim it as their ancient seat of power.
It's not that I'm trying to "unmake what's there." It's that there's nothing there.
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These were the parts that jumped out at me:
"...and the one beneath us was an enormous current of raw earth magic...I was immediately overwhelmed with a rush of images and alien sensations, contacting a power so intense and coherent that it nearly had its own awareness. In a single moment, I saw the ponderous dance of continents clashing against one another to form mountains, felt the slow sleepiness of the earth, its dreaming shivers felt as disasters by the ephemeral things that lived upon it's skin...gold and silver flowing hot in rivers... I was a frail wisp of mortality beside that energy that could, quite literally, have moved mountains, leveled cities, shifted the course of rivers, and stirred oceans in their beds."
Just sounded very much like a Dragon's job description to me. Or I could have fallen for another of Master Jim's red herrings LOL ;D
I think you were bolding the wrong parts.
For a start, Harry identifies it as "raw earth magic." He's not speculating there -- he's stating what it is. It's not a mysterious source, he recognizes it as earth magic.
He says it's so old it nearly has awareness. Not that it's from something that has actual awareness.
What he's describing is time. Like an earth leyline's "memory" of things condensed. He's not saying it has the raw power and will to reshape things at whim. He's more likely saying the energy is built up from billions of years of the motion of the earth.
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And Hades voice is like tectonic plates and his handshake like a mountain. imagery, pure imagery.
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Harry isn't using a simile. He outright says it's a leyline of raw earth magic and is describing the images he gets from that. He's not saying it's "like" those things, he's saying it is those things.
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I agree with Mr. Death in that it isn't a dragon. I believe it's a source of great power and has its own potential genus loci, but its status in my mind would be asleep.
That said, I still believe a dragon's curse played out in chichen itza that was related to the reds pilfering a Dragon's horde and/or using its location to protect and maintain their gear.
I like to think that the red court, arrogant in their power, crossed the wrong dead Dragon, and they were struck by a long term, insidious, death curse that was aimed at there extermination.
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Yea, he's interpreting things in both cases, obviously he's getting the sensations interpreted from how he feels it
but its status in my mind would be asleep.
Interesting, almost like a hibernating Dragon? Or a sleeper?
Then there are the dragons that slumber for centuries,
usually in the depths of some mountain, to awaken at a time
of world cataclysm to either wreak havoc or rescue the
world, depending on the story.
Cthulhu's appearance is described as looking like an octopus, a dragon, and a caricature of human form.
Orpheus played a vital role during the expedition because, playing his music, he put to sleep the "sleepless dragon" that was guarding the Golden Fleece
And his story his heavily tied up with hades and Persephone so he's a likely 'real' person. as well as countess others. hence the saying about tickling a sleeping dragon, kinda known for it, like bears.
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He's not describing an interpretation.
He's describing directly the images that were in his mind. Those are his words: "I was immediately overwhelmed with a rush of images" "I saw the ponderous dance ..."
Images that he saw. Not interpretations of sensations, but images he saw.
He describes it explicitly as "raw earth magic." If there was a power there he couldn't attribute or describe, he would have said that, but he didn't. He said it was magic that he positively recognized and identified.
When he faces off with Vadderung and is held down by his will, Harry is able to confidently say it's not earth magic holding him down. So, clearly, Harry knows what earth magic is and feels like.
You're attributing ambiguity to the passage when there really isn't any. He's not guessing. He's not speculating. He's saying, "This is what it is. This is what I saw."
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Yep, this is what I saw. His perspective as he clearly see's the Outer Gates, I mean, that's not an interpretation.... oh, wait, and he straight up experienced that. An there's nothing in the dark necro lines that allude to the fact they are Body heat from dark gods and nameless beasts. Nobody, even the wardens clearly familiar with the lines themselves seem to know anything about it.
Your trying to enforce your same stubborn I don't wanna see anything outside of my perspective opinion on everything, on everyone else. Least the perspective I wish to enforce is to simply be open freakin minded about stuff instead of arguing to be right all the time. Especially a negative affirmation.
*sigh* and this is why nobody see's the supernatural in the DF, they plain don't wanna.
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You keep bringing in totally unrelated things.
What does the Outer Gates have to do with anything?
Harry not sensing the presence of the dark gods at DR is irrelevant, because he's never drawn power from those ley lines. You're comparing two different experiences. We've seen no other Wardens of DR, so your assertion that "even the wardens clearly familiar with the lines" don't know anything means nothing, because we haven't seen any Wardens of DR before Harry.
I'm not trying to "enforce" anything. I'm just pointing out that what isn't there isn't there.
What does there being a dragon there do for the setting, the book, or the conflict in that book?
Nobody sees it. Nobody hears it. It doesn't make itself known. It has zero presence in the huge, climactic, apocalyptic battle happening supposedly right over its head. Nobody who says anything about the site even remotely hints at the possibility of a Dragon. The one supposed "contribution" in the ley line is something that could be (and is) easily and acceptably explained by something else.
In short, if you have a Dragon that has absolutely no impact whatsoever on the one event that happens in the place, there's no point in there being a Dragon there at all.
Just because I don't buy into all of the dart-board-word-association theories on the boards doesn't mean I'm trying to "enforce" anything. The OP posed a question -- he wondered if there was a Dragon there. I say no, and I'm well within my rights to explain my reasoning.
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Again, I agree with Mr. Death. There is an absence of Dragon references in the excerpt that was included. I will now include what I say are real dragon references that support my idea that the Red Court placed their warehouse at the site of a Dragon hoard.
We went deeper into the facility. The caves ran very deep back into the stone, and we’d gone down maybe a hundred yards after moving about four hundred yards forward on a spiraling ramp. The air grew colder, to the ambient underground average.
More than that, though, it gained a definite spiritual chill. Malevolent energy hovered around us, slow and thick like half- frozen honey. There was a gloating, miserly quality to it, bringing to my mind images of old Smaug lying in covetous slumber upon his bed of treasure. That, then, was the reason the Red Court had hidden its dark treasures here. Ambient energy like this wasn’t directly dangerous to anyone—but with only the mildest of efforts it would protect and preserve the magical implements jealously against the passing of time.
There is no denying that excerpt screams Dragon.
I also agree with Jonas as I too believe there is a dormant power at Chichen Itza, the disagreement is of what kind.
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Considering Harry literally names one, yeah, I'll say there's a lot more suggesting there was or had been a dragon there than at Chichen Itza.
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It, in addition to the WOJ about Dragon death curses, is why I believe the Red Court got tripped up on one. They desecrated/appropriated in some way a site of a hoard of a dead Dragon.
1) What ever happened to Siriothrax's hoard? Did any of the magical powerups in the series we've seen so far originate there?
1) Heh, it's still right where it was. NO ONE wants to pick up anything from a Dragon's hoard. Talk about Death Curses...
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It supplants a nice connection on where ley lines all come from and why they exist. It's actually a highly logical idea the 'winged serpent' became part of such a power base that it could power 12 lesser gods. Sorry your perspective is too limiting to see anything not there directly. Must suck for you trying to play clue. Out of your element, no?
You keep bringing in totally unrelated things.
What does the Outer Gates have to do with anything?
Because he directly 'witnessed' that with his own senses and yet according to Woj it was ALL interpreted, which means what he 'felt' over imagined has no relevance here, the two are one and the same. He also felt things in FM, difference being he knew it was a hallucination then.
Again, I agree with Mr. Death.
Once is generally enough unless you wish to disavow something with your opinion.
Ya'll realize this ain't even my theory? I just refuse to allow you to shit on it based solely on your disagreeing.
ppl shouldn't lack such respect for others opinions and perspectives, the inability to do so is the direct cause of divisions and 'othering'.
the sentence smacks of a dragon's purpose just as the other place alludes to his aura of malcontent.
Quite frankly Rai, that colludes with them having a dragons power as their base more than detracts from it. bit's of dragony references abound.
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My point of disagreement is in calling the impression from chichen itza Dragon, I'm more inclined to label it something else like sleeping ancient, god, titan, genus loci, etc.
As to your reference to Harry's impression of the outer gates, etc in your arguments, I quite followed them whereas Mr. Death didn't.
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There is Woj on Dragon that they could be given a job like dividing continents with a river, etc.
I would include reference but I'm on kindle, so it's hard to.
So, there is sufficient evidence to support at least a passing resemblance to a Dragon's role. But my impression is that they would tap these key lines, forces to do so. It should be mentioned that dragons resent mortals, mankind, for usurping their role in the world. So I suspect that wizards to some degree is able to do some portion of what a dragon can do. And dragons resent it.
As to kukulcan, the Mayan god referenced in changes, he is a feathered snake not a Dragon per se.
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"feathered" is an interpretation of the Nahuatl language though. I see it as a possible reference to simply the idea of wings itself. Course I suppose we don't know dragons never have feathers yet...
Anyway, my point was, at the spot you mention we see the aura of a dragon's horde and at Chicken pizza we see a dragon's raw power. If we take the fact Aztec civilization was overtaken by Mayan sacrificial gods, turning Quetzalcoatl to Kulkan and the relative distance between where the smaug horde was to where chicken pizza is, then we likely are seeing the originals place of hording for Aztec 'feather serpent' and where the LoONs sacrificed it into their power base. they ripped it apart, but since they are of it's power now they weren't directly stopped from his hording spot. I don't expect to see a dragon, but they make reference to them having a similar desire to Horde and aura about their catch of treasures. I see that as reason enough to look at their source of power and see the same comparison to what a dragon can do in a positive light.
Totally agree on the death curse part though, insidious things.
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WOJ's on topic of Dragon's and what role they fill.
The other dragon still walking the earth is named Pyrovax
Once & Future Podcast @~60m
Dragons are the kind of forces that you put in charge of things like..
"It's time for another ice age, you- go handle that."
"We really need this continent to be split by a giant river, arrange it."
"Ok."
That's the kind of thing that Dragons would be doing
2009 WoJ forum post:
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast. It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos. He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment. He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession. There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.
Considering these, I still feel there is a distinction between the Dragons and what Harry described when he pulled from the Leylines at Chichen Itza. There is some sentience as described by Harry within the well at Chichen Itza. I know Jim has mentioned a Titan in one of his WOJ's. Most believe it to be bound within Demonreach. Perhaps there is something similar asleep beneath CI.
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I believe the WOJ on Dragons was that there are only two left alive, not only two left awake. And if we can interpret their domains from their names, the survivors are into iron and fire. It could fit the quoted description of the ley line's energy, but it could equally be coming from some other powerful being with a geological affinity, or be entirely naturally occurring.
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ppl shouldn't lack such respect for others opinions and perspectives, the inability to do so is the direct cause of divisions and 'othering'.
Right, people shouldn't lack such respect. Let's take a look at your post.
Do you call this respectful?
"Sorry your perspective is too limiting to see anything not there directly. Must suck for you trying to play clue. Out of your element, no?"
That sounds a lot like you're directly insulting my intelligence, just because I disagree with you.
"I just refuse to allow you to shit on it based solely on your disagreeing."
And that sounds a lot like you're dismissing my arguments (and, I note, not actually answering half the questions in my post).
The one being disrespectful is you.
I can disagree with any theory I want. You apparently really want there to be a dragon. Fine. But there still exists no evidence of a Dragon. There still exists no acknowledgement by anyone involved of even the possibility of a Dragon, including someone who gives a full infodump about the site, its significance, and what Harry can expect to find there. There still exists no narrative gain in putting a Dragon there and not using him.
Nobody has ever attributed any of the Red Court's power to any sort of Dragon. It's just plain not something that has any support in the books.
I have explained my reasoning, clearly. You are the one who keeps resorting to insulting me in an attempt to undermine or shame me into acquiescing.
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Right, people shouldn't lack such respect. Let's take a look at your post.
Do you call this respectful?
"Sorry your perspective is too limiting to see anything not there directly. Must suck for you trying to play clue. Out of your element, no?"
That sounds a lot like you're directly insulting my intelligence, just because I disagree with you.
"I just refuse to allow you to shit on it based solely on your disagreeing."
And that sounds a lot like you're dismissing my arguments (and, I note, not actually answering half the questions in my post).
The one being disrespectful is you.
I can disagree with any theory I want. You apparently really want there to be a dragon. Fine. But there still exists no evidence of a Dragon. There still exists no acknowledgement by anyone involved of even the possibility of a Dragon, including someone who gives a full infodump about the site, its significance, and what Harry can expect to find there. There still exists no narrative gain in putting a Dragon there and not using him.
Nobody has ever attributed any of the Red Court's power to any sort of Dragon. It's just plain not something that has any support in the books.
I have explained my reasoning, clearly. You are the one who keeps resorting to insulting me in an attempt to undermine or shame me into acquiescing.
Actually if you look, you started it and I just played ball, no? your habitual in it btw, just couple weeks ago calling me childish in my remarks... which did I do to earn that? Cause I can point back to that which you insist on doing time and again in the same situation for the same reason. and yea, you can expect me to jab back within reason.
You 'misunderstand', claim relevant parallels are illrelevent, ignore any point I make to redirect to non linear opinion laced arguments that you expect me to pick apart apparently.
I'm stating an idea, your the one insisting on replying, continuously in a I wanna win additude and saying such an idea is impossible based solely upon your own preponderance of the evidence. Your known for it and i'm not always in the fray to be the common denominator here >:(
Which btw if you notice, I don't try to 'win' a theory unless you count reading it later in the books, I just keep the game in play.
Sorry if you don't like me, but feel entirely free to not quote/respond to me if I cause such duress :( your entirely enabled to ignore my existence. Gosh knows others in life have lol.
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This thread is getting less theory and more personal.
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Yes, Jonas, there wasn't anything in that post about this discussion. You seem intent on just attacking me personally now. Please stop.
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Thanks for bickering like children, folks! The "when will I decide that the forum is no longer worth the trouble when folks can just bicker with each other on other social media instead" counter has ticked up by one.
Thread locked.