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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on June 18, 2019, 06:02:29 PM
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Reading through some old threads and discovered a quote.
I reached out to the cold and the gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spellworking, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.
This happens in Chapter 12 of Proven Guilty. There is a temperature drop and a ward slowing Harry down as well as a murk.
Fast reverse back to Summer Knight. To Harry's meeting with Maeve in undertown.Maeve drew herself up, her face shining with a sudden terrible beauty. She lifted her right hand, ring finger and thumb both bent, and murmured something in a liquid, alien tongue. Sudden blue light gathered around her fingers, and the temperature in the room dropped by about forty degrees. She spoke again, and flicked her wrist, sending glowing motes of azure flickering toward Slate.
The snowflake brand flared into sudden light, and Slate's advance halted, his body going rigid. The skin around the brand turned blue, then purple, then black, spreading like a stop-motion enhanced film of gangrene. A quiet snarl slipped from Slate's lips, and I could see his body trembling with the effort to continue toward Maeve. He shuddered and took another step forward.
Now tie that in with the murk in Small Favor, in the train station. Add to that, prior to that event the phages entered Chicago through mirrors. How did they get into the screening room?
Myself, I'm gonna go with Maeve as Sandra Marling. And another interesting tidbit Molly walks away from Harry at the end of Skin Games using a cell phone. Which made be think of Sandra Marling waving her phone. Probably wrong but I'm feeling happy today.
Happy Peace Talks
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The only way we will see Maeve again is if Harry is involved in some time travel shenanigans. However, Proven Guilty is exactly the book where that would seem a reasonable possibility, so your hypothesis may have some merit; but my guess is you've missed the mark by a wide margin. Meaning, while I think that it's possible Maeve was involved in the events of PG, I don't think she was pretending to be Sandra Marling.
Remember the amount of time and effort that was needed by Sandra Marling to set up Splattercon and to draw Molly into her sphere of influence. Maeve was far too lazy to do either of those two things, but more than that she despised mortals and wouldn't lower herself to pretend to be one for any extended length of time, plus I seriously doubt she would have had the skill set needed to organize a human endeavour such as a Con; and finally, she had no reason to want to corrupt Molly. Mavra or even the Denarians are better suspects for attempting to corrupt Molly.
To reiterate, it wouldn't shock me if we discover Maeve was working in the background during PG. In a time travel story we might even be shown how Mab learned her daughter was nemfected. Jim might do this to explain exactly what and why Mab did what she did, before and during PG.
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How did they get into the screening room?
I think Molly's friend checked her makeup using the mirror in her compact. (Someone did, I just can't remember who it was).
The temperature could have dropped just because it was Winter fairies. I was thinking that we have only seen that sort of thing with the Knights and Queens, but I remembered that the temperature changed in Small Favor when Summer kelpies came after Dresden on Lake Michigan.
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I think Molly's friend checked her makeup using the mirror in her compact. (Someone did, I just can't remember who it was).
You are correct. So there was a mirror.
@KurtinStGeorge
I may well be wide of the mark. And if I had a copy of Peace Talks in font of my face we wouldn't be talking. But I don't, so I'll defend.
Somebody is throwing some serious magic around, a fairly strong ward and a myrk. And while Molly was the beacon she wasn't the summoner. If you assume that Sandra Marling was a thrall, that leaves someone in the background that can use magic, and was at the con both times. I would like to believe Jim doesn't use characters who never show up in the book doing things so overt. Two international women of mystery is one too many. The Fae are the only ones who can use magic and can carry off glamours and are undetectable as magic users. And Ladies can summon denizens of Faerie.
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The Fae are the only ones who can use magic and can carry off glamours and are undetectable as magic users.
What? I'm confused. As far as I understand:
1) Lots of people can use magic,
2) Illusion magic is definitely a thing that non-faeries can do, and
3) Faeries are not noted as being specifically undetectable to magic-users.
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What? I'm confused. As far as I understand:
1) Lots of people can use magic,
2) Illusion magic is definitely a thing that non-faeries can do, and
3) Faeries are not noted as being specifically undetectable to magic-users.
Mortal practitioners detect one another at touch, detecting rough power-levels, e.g. from a handshake or any other skin-contact. Faeries can shake mortals' hands without being detected.
OTOH, Fae are generally pretty bad at "passing for mortal" for more than a few moments. They tend to be too beautiful, or too ugly, or too odd... just "too" something.
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@nadia.skylark
The point of this is that in the books we normally see all the players who directly act. Who was the summoner?
@g33k
Jenny Greenteeth manages to pass for Georgia well enough.
@Bad Alias
The fetches appear multiple times, but in the bathroom there is never a temperature drop mentioned.
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Mortal practitioners detect one another at touch, detecting rough power-levels, e.g. from a handshake or any other skin-contact. Faeries can shake mortals' hands without being detected.
I'm trying to remember a time in one of the books where Harry shook a faerie's hand and didn't realize what they were, but I'm drawing a blank. Was it Aurora? I'd thought he had his hands full with Elaine when they met.
The point of this is that in the books we normally see all the players who directly act. Who was the summoner?
I know that bit. What I was confused about was where the idea that the fae are the only beings who can use magic and illusions without being detectible.
As I recall, Harry usually detects faeries pretty fast when they're around.
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And if I had a copy of Peace Talks in font of my face we wouldn't be talking. But I don't, so I'll defend.
This is one of the things I love about reading your posts.
The fetches appear multiple times, but in the bathroom there is never a temperature drop mentioned.
Two of the witnesses aren't in great shape. You have Pell who can barely talk and Nelson who is going crazy. Did Rawlins get there in time to notice such a thing? Would he notice? But yes, that's a good point.
I'm not sure what makes the temperature change when Summer/Winter shows up. We've only seen it with the Knights, the Queens, whatever happened here, and in Small Favor with the kelpies, but we've seen Summer and Winter forces much more often than that. I'd say we don't have enough information to even attempt to draw conclusions, but I don't have a copy of Peace Talks either.
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This is the worst time for me. The last mile so to speak. The drug is close, I can see the dealer walking down the street.;D
The difference between the attacks is striking, two are general and one is specific. In the bathroom attack the creatures come in, disable Pell and then leave. They don't kill him and they don't leave the bathroom. Doesn't that strike you as strange? No temperature change. More like somebody was watching the mirrors from the other side and were waiting for Pell. And they hurt him enough to make sure the theater was unoccupied, but left him alive so that the nature of the place wouldn't change and shift the portal. These apparently were sent from the other side.
The other attacks seemed to have required a summoner, someone who called the fetches to a place to wreak havoc and murder. So I theorize that the fetches came in through a portal and the temperature drop represents the cold of Winter or the Cold of someone using Winter magic.
@nadia.skylark
About the magic. Any number of things can use magic in the books, but either you posit an off page actor who is never exposed in the book or you posit someone in the book whose identity is concealed. In the first murder attack someone uses a ward and maybe a myrk. In the second someone disables the lights and alarms. If not Marling then who else in the book could it be, and who ran from the screening room?
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This is the worst time for me. The last mile so to speak. The drug is close, I can see the dealer walking down the street.;D
;D
Let's try to get a list of the attacks and the details of them.
These are the ones I recall:
1. Pell in the bathroom.
2. The screening room.
3. The scarecrow in the parking lot.
4. The final attack where the alien slips through Harry's web. Did that start in the kitchen?
1 and 3 are clearly targeted attacks. The purpose of 1 is to secure access to the way at the theater. Harry thinks the purpose of 3 is to kill Glau.
2 could have been to grab Molly, but I don't see it unless the fetch went off mission. I also don't see the purpose of 4 unless we assume that it was known that Harry would successfully send the fetches to Molly.
What are the known characteristics of the attacks?
The other attacks seemed to have required a summoner, someone who called the fetches to a place to wreak havoc and murder.
Weren't they sent, not summoned?
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@g33k
Jenny Greenteeth manages to pass for Georgia well enough.
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True. I'll argue that this was an exceptional case. Since she was not just "playing mortal" but playing a specific mortal, I bet there was some very-specific magic involved.
It takes Harry just a few minutes in Summer Knight to see through Mab's disguise (part of it was Harry just being a good PI, deducing things; but part of it was spotting odd non-mortal discrepancies); he realized that "Grum" was fae just moments after the conflict began (betting his best shot on an iron nail to do more damage than the wound otherwise would).
Harry remarks -- several times -- that most faeries (most supernaturals, in general) don't do "mortal" well at all.
I bet Jenny is just an individual with exceptionally-good mortal-ish glamour, and/or that some specific body-double magic made for a better rendition of "mortal."
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Let's try to get a list of the attacks and the details of them.
These are the ones I recall:
1. Pell in the bathroom.
2. The screening room.
3. The scarecrow in the parking lot.
4. The final attack where the alien slips through Harry's web. Did that start in the kitchen?
1 and 3 are clearly targeted attacks. The purpose of 1 is to secure access to the way at the theater. Harry thinks the purpose of 3 is to kill Glau.
2 could have been to grab Molly, but I don't see it unless the fetch went off mission. I also don't see the purpose of 4 unless we assume that it was known that Harry would successfully send the fetches to Molly.
What are the known characteristics of the attacks?
Weren't they sent, not summoned?
Know them by what they accomplished. Putting aside the targeted attacks, of 1 and 3 for a moment. If they were sent rather than summoned who used the ward and the myrk against Harry and Rawlins? The myrk would have been effective at neutralizing Rawlins, the ward was aimed at Harry, specifically. That puts a magic user in the room, and we get a flash of them. They were summoned. This keeps it simple, otherwise you have someone of both sides. This is Harry getting beat over the head with a stupid stick. Hey Gorilla, lookee here. Magic and fetches. Which sets up the 4th attack. Harry is predictable. The attacker has him under a stupid spell, Harry will do what he does, attempt to turn the table on the summoner and send the fetches after who he assumes is both the beacon and the summoner. Since the spell is locked to the beacon the fetches go straight to her.“Sure,” Bob said. “I mean, you have everything you need for that. You know the phages are after fear, and that they’re probably using his power as a beacon. Your web tells you something is stirring. You conjure up a big ball of fear, target the same beacon the phages are using, and let it fly.”
Under interesting side notes. Who could know that LC was defective and could kill Harry? Certainly the Mothers. When Harry is shown the Outer Gates the Mothers see multiple possibilities brought on by doing so. We can assume they could see the effects of Harry's death using LC. Vadderung tells us that it is better to change the future then attempt to change the past. So if Harry is important to them, then they would send in someone to do the fix before the future becomes the past. Yea Mab.
And just for fun Do the Outer Gates share a lot of the functionality of LC?
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About the magic. Any number of things can use magic in the books, but either you posit an off page actor who is never exposed in the book or you posit someone in the book whose identity is concealed. In the first murder attack someone uses a ward and maybe a myrk. In the second someone disables the lights and alarms. If not Marling then who else in the book could it be, and who ran from the screening room?
I think it's completely reasonable that it was Marling.
I think it's reasonable that Marling was a faerie.
I do not think it's reasonable to claim that faeries are the only beings capable of using illusion magic without detection.
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I do not think it's reasonable to claim that faeries are the only beings capable of using illusion magic without detection.
Ok,who?
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Ok,who?
-There are probably demons that could manage it.
-A descendent of one of the sneakier gods.
-Someone who has been given power by one of the sneakier gods.
-The Genowska (or however you spell that) wasn't detectable without use of the Sight, except for eating goats.
-Probably other Coin-host pairings could do the same. (maybe the other Rosanna)
-A ghost might be able to--I'm not sure if they can hex things when corporeal, but I don't remember anything about recognizing one that is corporeal if you don't already know it's a ghost.
-Nemesis might be able to prevent mortal hexing and stop other practitioners from recognizing them--it seems like the same kind of "subverting one's nature" as allowing faeries to lie.
-the scion of a skinwalker like Goodman Grey (not by illusion, but shapeshifting)
-maybe Jade Court agents? They're supposed to be good at being sneaky, I think.
-an older version of Molly
-a spirit of intellect might be able to possess someone and qualify
-maybe a rakshasha? Some versions have them good at illusions, and we don't know how detectable they are
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You do realize that this is called making stuff up?
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Harry knew Grey was a shapeshifter. Harry was surprised that Grey was a scion of a skinwalker. There were four operatives who could have done Grey's job. Maybe they were all shapeshifters, maybe not. But I think the key here is that there are enough excellent shapeshifters that "skinwalker" and "shapeshifter" aren't even close to synonymous.
For all we know, Marling was Grey.
I honestly have no idea what was really going on in Proven Guilty, so I'm not saying it happened this way or that way. The facts are too sparse and the possibilities too broad to have any confidence in just about any theory.
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I doubt that at the advent of Proven Guilty that Goodman Grey was a twinkle in Jim's eye.
I honestly have no idea what was really going on in Proven Guilty, so I'm not saying it happened this way or that way. The facts are too sparse and the possibilities too broad to have any confidence in just about any theory.
I'm theory crafting, as such I'm setting bounds to make it fun without being overly complicated. The only thing that screws things up is Mab not hitting on the Reds. The timing is messed up. Jim primes you with the idea that the attack happened recently. It only makes sense if it happens somewhere near the events of Dead Beat.
Some interesting things happen in the books around Proven Guilty, One is that Jim has Luccio's boot camp attacked twice. Once in Proven Guilty and again in White Knight. The Reds had to find a way to draw off some of our heavies and they found it. Luccio’s boot camp.”
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I doubt that at the advent of Proven Guilty that Goodman Grey was a twinkle in Jim's eye.
Yeah, but Butters was supposed to be a one off. It's easy to imagine that Marling was an agent of someone, and Jim didn't have a reason to get more specific than that, or to change it later when he thought it would be fun to bring Grey back in.
I'm theory crafting, as such I'm setting bounds to make it fun without being overly complicated.
I'm just saying we don't have enough specifics to set bounds that aren't arbitrary. I'm fine with arbitrarily set bounds for the sake of argument. Especially when used to make a specific point.
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So I told him all about the last few days, especially my dealings with Lily and Fix, Maeve, and Mab. Ebenezar listened to it all in silence.
“What a mess,” he said when I finished.
“Tell me about it.” I sipped at my beer. “You know what I think?”
He finished his beer and shook his head.
“I think we got played.”
“By the Summer Lady?”
I shook my head. “I think Lily got suckered just as much as we did.”
He frowned and rubbed at his head with one palm. “How so?”
“That’s the part I can’t figure,” I said. “I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I’m damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor.”
Ebenezar pursed his lips. “Who?”
“I think we got used by one of the Queens to one-up one of the others, somehow. But damned if I can figure out how.”
Given Cold Days you should be able to answer these questions pretty definitively. I'll set one bound. Nobody was involved that we haven't been introduced to by Cold Days.
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You do realize that this is called making stuff up?
:o I'm making stuff up?
You claimed that faeries are the only beings in the entire Dresdenverse capable of using illusion magic without detection, despite the fact that
A) There is no evidence that I recall that faeries are particularly undetectable
B) There is definitely evidence that other beings can use illusion magic, and
C) There is no evidence that other beings can't be undetectable while using illusion magic.
I responded by saying that I was confused, due to these facts.
You responded with something that had nothing to do with what I was saying (since you said something about what happened in Proven Guilty but nothing about faeries, whereas what I was saying had nothing to do with Proven Guilty and everything to do with faeries).
I responded by clarifying what I was saying.
You responded with more Proven Guilty stuff that wasn't what I was talking about.
I responded by briefly addressing the Proven Guilty stuff, and again clarifying the bit of what you had said that I found problematic.
You, rather than providing evidence or reasoning to support your completely untenable claim, then requested I provide a list of hypothetical beings who would disprove your claim (despite your claim having, to my knowledge, no supporting evidence whatsoever, and therefore being in no need of disproving).
I figured, "why not?" and came up with a list, using words like "maybe" and "possibly" since it was, after all, speculation.
And now you're saying that I'm the one who's making things up? At least I don't make completely unsupportable claims and then act as if they are facts.
And for the record, while most of my list was speculation, both the Genowska (spelling?) and Goodman Gray have canonical support for being able to use magic/magic-like abilities to disguise themselves undetectably.
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That was probably poorly chosen phrasing. And I apologize if you are offended.
Of all the things you suggested Goodman Grey is the only one known to be a shape shifter and he can't or didn't use magic. I can spell genoskwa either, but he doesn't appear to be a shape shifter. Molly has never been shown to assume a different outer shape, she's the invisible girl and a copy monster. The rest never show up in the books, or if they did I missed them.
A)Jenny Greenteeth sits in for Georgia at Billy's wedding, Billy never catches on.
In Summer Knight Harry takes some time to catch on to what Mab is.
And both Mab and Lea have used their magic to mimic Molly and random people.
B)Listens To Wind is the only human in the books to shape shift and use magic.
The Whites don't do it and neither did the Reds, if you don't count their flesh mask.
Gods or at least angels do.
If any of the Denarians can they've never done it in story.
I don't remember the name off hand but the were human who teaches the pack how to turn into wolf does.
The Hags do in the comic books and Dresden never tips to it until the end.
And last but not least the Ghouls can apparently pass.
C)I'm not certain that the Fae can conceal themselves if you touch them, it's never come up. But they don't give off an aura like a wizard and they can use phones.
And yet again my apologies.
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That was probably poorly chosen phrasing. And I apologize if you are offended.
Don't worry about it. 80-90% of my offense was caused by having gotten 4 hours of sleep, followed by 8-9 hours of learning new skills (workshops are fun, but not when you forget you're taking them until the evening before they happen, and you have other stuff you need to get done before then!).
Of all the things you suggested Goodman Grey is the only one known to be a shape shifter and he can't or didn't use magic.
True, but shapeshifting accomplishes the same thing as magic when it comes to disguising yourself as someone else, which I believe is what is being discussed.
I can spell genoskwa either, but he doesn't appear to be a shape shifter.
No he isn't (apart from the Denarian thing) but he can at least use veils (which are a subset of illusion magic) undetectably. Based on this and his skill with earth magic, I figure it's a pretty safe bet that he could learn to use other illusion magic (and thus gain the ability to impersonate others) undetectably if anyone could give him a good reason for doing so.
Molly has never been shown to assume a different outer shape, she's the invisible girl and a copy monster.
Molly's illusion powers can explicitly make her look like other people. She is also less prone to hexing things than Harry, and we know that even Harry can suppress the hexing thing for a little while. Thus, I figure that an older version of Molly has something like a 90-95% chance of being able to suppress hexing and other magic-detecting effects (maybe the other magic-detecting effects aren't suppressed, she just veils them from notice) while using illusion magic.
The rest never show up in the books, or if they did I missed them.
They don't show up.
Jenny Greenteeth sits in for Georgia at Billy's wedding, Billy never catches on.
But Billy, to my knowledge, has never shown any particular ability to detect the supernatural (except maybe smell, and is also understandably distracted by the wedding.
In Summer Knight Harry takes some time to catch on to what Mab is.
She's Mab, Harry's a wreck, and he still catches on within five minutes or less.
And both Mab and Lea have used their magic to mimic Molly and random people.
True for Lea, but when did Mab do it?
Listens To Wind is the only human in the books to shape shift and use magic.
Well, technically the Alphas all shapeshift due to a spell, so they are using magic by definition--but I get your point.
However, weren't we mostly talking about illusion magic? I'd thought shapeshifting was just an alternate option for that.
The Whites don't do it
True.
and neither did the Reds, if you don't count their flesh mask.
I forgot about these guys! Why don't you count their flesh mask? According to Changes, some of them can use it to look like other people (one of them looked like Susan for the purpose of hiring a guy to kill Dresden).
If any of the Denarians can they've never done it in story.
True, but Skin Game shows us that Denarians don't have an anti-technology aura (otherwise Tessa would have triggered the anti-wizard defenses at Marcone's bank) so any Denarian that learns illusion magic would be able to use it as undetectably as a faerie.
I don't remember the name off hand but the were human who teaches the pack how to turn into wolf does.
Terra West.
The Hags do in the comic books and Dresden never tips to it until the end.
And last but not least the Ghouls can apparently pass.
I forgot about these guys too!
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@nadia.skylark
I'm discussing characters in the book who can appear as a human but can summon a creature of Winter. The summoner in particular is someone who has done magic that is familiar to Harry. For the purpose of this theory, I would like the summoner and Sandra Marling to be one and the same.
For the purpose of this theory the person should do nothing or use nothing that isn't canon. So you can speculate that the genoskwa could do anything but never does anything like that on page before he is killed.
I don't remember Molly as taking on anyone's appearance.She's Mab, Harry's a wreck, and he still catches on within five minutes or less.
Harry doesn't detect her because he senses Magic, he detects her because she isn't good at being a modern human. The Ladies are closer to the mortal plane than Mab. They live here, not in faerie. In the last short story Molly is raising cohorts form creatures living here. And I missed another creature of Winter that can appear as humans, the ones in Alaska.True for Lea, but when did Mab do it?
Mab calls Thomas in Cold Days imitating Molly.
Now unrelated to my response to you a word about Rashid in Proven Guilty. Ebeneezer talking to Harry in the round up in chapter 47 says.“Rashid,” I said in a firm voice. “Tell the Gatekeeper.”
Ebenezar frowned, though it looked more weary than anything else. “Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn’t simply using you to poke a hornet’s nest and see what flew up.”
My theory is assuming that this statement from Eb is the precise reason behind the events of Proven Guilty.
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I'm discussing characters in the book who can appear as a human but can summon a creature of Winter. The summoner in particular is someone who has done magic that is familiar to Harry. For the purpose of this theory, I would like the summoner and Sandra Marling to be one and the same.
This would explain how we keep talking past each other--because I'm not talking about Proven Guilty. At all. I'm talking about one claim you made when discussing Proven Guilty, which I consider to be untrue.
I don't remember Molly as taking on anyone's appearance.
She does so at least in Cold Case, and maybe in Ghost Story or Bombshells--I don't remember.
Also, Harry creates an artifact that Thomas can use for magical impersonation--so whoever's doing the impersonation might not even be able to use magic/shapeshifting themselves at all.
Harry doesn't detect her because he senses Magic, he detects her because she isn't good at being a modern human. The Ladies are closer to the mortal plane than Mab. They live here, not in faerie. In the last short story Molly is raising cohorts form creatures living here. And I missed another creature of Winter that can appear as humans, the ones in Alaska.
As I recall, he detected Mab because she left magic static on his doorknob.
Mab calls Thomas in Cold Days imitating Molly.
Thanks.
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As I recall, he detected Mab because she left magic static on his doorknob.
You recall incorrectly. The static isn't magic static."Static on the doorknob," I said. "It should have been locked. You shouldn't have been able to get in here, so you must have gone through it.
The static is on the doorknob because the knob hasn't been touched, or at least that is what Harry implies. And that is as good as Jim's physics and neurobiology. Which is to say, lacking. That isn't how it works. However this is a book about magic.
I still don't remember about Molly, but ok.Also, Harry creates an artifact that Thomas can use for magical impersonation--so whoever's doing the impersonation might not even be able to use magic/shapeshifting themselves at all.
Ok.
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The static is on the doorknob because the knob hasn't been touched, or at least that is what Harry implies.
Is that what Harry was implying? Huh. I'd always thought that he was implying that the static was magic residue from her spelling the door unlocked.
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I gave you the quote.
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I'm gonna jump in with the claim that the fetches were there on Mab's behest, or maybe Lea-as-Mab's-Right-Hand.
It began the Winter-Molly path that culminated in Lady Molly.
There may have been another agent involved... a Mortal wizard, a Denarian, a Vamp of some stripe. My bet would be on a WinterFae or a Denarian, (or agents thereof) because those are the agents we find entangled at Arctis Tor.
But it's a pretty good notion that the Fetch who came in through the bathroom mirror was SENT by someone with authority over it. And THAT list is, AFAIK, limited to... Mab (and Lea, if so delegated).
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I do not think it's reasonable to claim that faeries are the only beings capable of using illusion magic without detection.
Ok,who?
If the party doing the magic is someone who we didn't see in Proven Guilty, but we will learn about in a time travel story, a good candidate would be Mavra. She's very good at veils. We learned this from the way she took pictures of Murphy killing the Reinfield in Blood Rites. She would have been within 10-15 feet from Harry and the Hellhound, and neither one of them had a clue.
Now Bob doesn't think Mavra is capable of creating a fine thrall; assuming that's what Sandra Marling was, someone who wouldn't even know they are a thrall, but what if Bob is wrong? It wouldn't be the first time.
Another possibility; but one which too little is known to put together a detailed description of, is there is more than one party at work in Proven Guilty, maybe several. Each could be acting for their own reasons. For example, Mavra was trying to corrupt Molly, but Maeve was the one summoning the Fetches. We already know there was a Denarian assault on Arctis Tor which probably took place sometime before events in the novel started, but it's why Mab was inside when Harry got there. I'm not saying it was a Denarian a Splattercon, I'm just saying things are complicated to the point where a simple explanation, meaning a single actor was responsible, might not be the best one.
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I'm gonna jump in with the claim that the fetches were there on Mab's behest, or maybe Lea-as-Mab's-Right-Hand.
Lea's in jail.
Consider the series of events. If Nelson doesn't go to jail, Harry never gets the call, no call and he gets to see LC blow up in his face, since when Molly calls he is getting ready to use it. As coincidences go this is a big one. And conveniently there is a cop just outside the bathroom when Pell gets his beating. Harry even calls it out.It looked like I’d found the black magic the Gatekeeper warned me about. Just as well that I hadn’t tried the dangerous spell with Little Chicago.
Attack two is clumsy, the summoner kills the light with some kind of spell which sounds a lot like myrk and uses a ward to slow Harry down. And they have to dash when Harry gets in the room. Almost like it was improvised just to impress Harry. ;)
The third attack will kill the lights and alarms mechanically, but no ward and no myrk.
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I gave you the quote.
I'm not arguing. Your interpretation makes perfect sense, probably more than mine--it had just never occurred to me before.
If Nelson doesn't go to jail, Harry never gets the call, no call and he gets to see LC blow up in his face, since when Molly calls he is getting ready to use it. As coincidences go this is a big one.
This coincidence always struck me as one similar to the coincidences the Knights of the Cross get, especially in light of Harry's leap of faith at the end of the book.
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Lea's in jail.
Right you are.
So... Mab. I feel like my basic "Why Mab" argument isn't affected by Lea being available (or not) as Mab's agent.
Consider the series of events. If Nelson doesn't go to jail, Harry never gets the call, no call and he gets to see LC blow up in his face, since when Molly calls he is getting ready to use it. As coincidences go this is a big one.
Again, Mab. The Nevernever-side of the Harry's lab is Lea's deathgarden. And Mab was running Lea's "protect Harry" chores, in-loco-godparentis.
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Right you are.
So... Mab. I feel like my basic "Why Mab" argument isn't affected by Lea being available (or not) as Mab's agent.
You do realize that my post doesn't disagree with you about the first attack?Another possibility; but one which too little is known to put together a detailed description of, is there is more than one party at work in Proven Guilty, maybe several.
Two as I see it. Mab and the Adversary represented by his allies.
And we know a lot, but only in hindsight.
Who is manipulating Lily? Maeve. And we know now that this was the first step in her Mab is crazy campaign.
Who is manipulating Maeve? The Adversary.
What group is at least a fellow traveler with the Adversary? The Black Council. Whose existence is deduced in the recap.
That something exists that can possess the second most powerful person in faerie.
That Rashid has it within his power to use the gate to watch events unfold in the world including acts of Black Magic.
That Mab has been watching both Harry and Molly. Perhaps since Death Masks.
Maybe why Arctis Tor was attacked.
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Here is an interesting idea. At least, _I_ think it's interesting... bit of a WAG, but here goes...
What if the whole thing was MOSTLY not about Molly, or the Denarian assault on Arctis Tor?
What if it was - mostly - a deep plot by Mab to ...
trick the Summer Lady into ...
giving some Summerfire to a Starborn fire-mage...
to dump onto the Winterwell ...
so Mab could use that power-hit to cure Lea...
who was right there after all.
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Here is an interesting idea. At least, _I_ think it's interesting... bit of a WAG, but here goes...
What if the whole thing was MOSTLY not about Molly, or the Denarian assault on Arctis Tor?
What if it was - mostly - a deep plot by Mab to ...
trick the Summer Lady into ...
giving some Summerfire to a Starborn fire-mage...
to dump onto the Winterwell ...
so Mab could use that power-hit to cure Lea...
who was right there after all.
I like it, you should start a thread.
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What if it was - mostly - a deep plot by Mab to ...
trick the Summer Lady into ...
giving some Summerfire to a Starborn fire-mage...
to dump onto the Winterwell ...
so Mab could use that power-hit to cure Lea...
who was right there after all.
There's a WoJ saying that Mab did not expect Harry to dump Summer Fire into Winter's Well.
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There's a WoJ saying that Mab did not expect Harry to dump Summer Fire into Winter's Well.
Are you sure? (any confirmation @Serack (or others with better WoJ-fu than me?))
Alas. Another great WAG gone up in flames...
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There's a WoJ saying that Mab did not expect Harry to dump Summer Fire into Winter's Well.
This is me helping you out, g33k doesn't need help. This may get me moderated for posting too much text.The Summer Lady looked up, her weary smile gorgeous. “I only provided a minor comfort and guide in order to repay my debt to the lady Charity,” she murmured, a small smile on her lips. “I had no way to know that the wizard would steal that power for his own use.”(you can add the innocent tone of voice, Marsters does it well.) She drew in a deep breath and said, “Help me up. We must go.”
Fix did so. “Go where?”
I said, “All of those Winter forces are now at the heart of their own realm. Which means that they aren’t on the borders of Summer waiting to attack. Which means that Summer has forces that can be spared to assist the Council,” I said quietly.
“But it only took them a few minutes to show up,” Murphy pointed out. “Couldn’t they just run back and be there a few minutes from now?”
“No, Murph,” I said. “They planned for that. This whole raid was a setup from the get go.” I jerked my head at Lily. “Wasn’t it.”
“That is one way to describe it,” Lily said quietly. “I would not, myself, interpret it that way. I had no part in bringing the fetches here—but their presence and their capture of Lady Charity’s daughter presented us with an opportunity to temporarily neutralize the presence of Mab’s forces upon our borders.”
“We,” I murmured. “Maeve is working with you. That was why she showed up at McAnally’s so quickly.”
“Even so,” Lily said, bowing her head at me in a nod of what looked like respect.
Fix blinked at Lily. “You’re working with Maeve?”
“She couldn’t have altered the flow of time at the heart of Winter,” I said quietly. “Only one of the Winter Queens could do that.”
As a side note if you look through the WOJ's somewhere there is a post where Jim tells you that the order of Proven Guilty and Dead Beat were changed. Make of that what you might. Also read the recap when Eb tells Harry what Rashid might have been doing.“Rashid,” I said in a firm voice. “Tell the Gatekeeper.”
Ebenezar frowned, though it looked more weary than anything else. “Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn’t simply using you to poke a hornet’s nest and see what flew up.”
Also note the change in tense. And read Love Hurts.
Edit
Just because, note that Mother Winter, Mab, and Maeve are referred to as the three queens.
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Dunno, man.
This quote seems to imply that the Ladies have out-smarted Mab on the "cunning manipulations" front. Freaking MAB.
I'm not buying that.
Of course... given that Mab was apparently right there all along, hidden beside Lea, it's equally possible that the plan went off mostly as the Maeve&Lily wanted it to... which was, in most regards, ALSO mostly as Mab wanted it to.
I'm still noticing that, even if Mab wasn't expecting the Summerfire (per nadia's WoJ), she DID still get a big ol' pile of Starborn magic funneled into the Winterwell, which wouldn't exactly have helped Nemesis find its Happy Place...
... Edit
Just because, note that Mother Winter, Mab, and Maeve are referred to as the three queens.
OK... but in what context?
I mean, yes they're Winter's three Queens. But which "referral" am I to look at/for?
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Are you sure?
Here is the entire (long) WoJ, straight from the WoJ compilation that you can access via the link on Jim's website. The important bit is in bold.
Mab as orchestrator of all is just a little much for me to swallow. Seems like she loses a lot more than she gains, and I don’t think Mab is big on coming out behind in her negotiations.
Jim: Yeah. It sure looks that way from here, don’t it. :)
But to correct some minor stuff: the fetches aren’t even /close/ to her strongest servitors. They’re her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins. Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about. The fetches main use, to Mab, isn’t as battlefield thugs. She’s got /plenty/ of other things for that. Another mild correction: who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived? At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress–but you didn’t see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya. :) Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn’t infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)
See above regarding “the question is *why*?”
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it? Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs. If worst comes to worst, with just a few “seed” fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two–nothing, to a being thousands of years old.
As far as she’s concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities.
(And by the way–don’t think Titania is much better. When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts. At least Mab is up front about it. Usually.)
Sacrifice her best troops? Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that’s what she thought was appropriate. And she wouldn’t even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.
But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter. Mab’s been in the business a long time, she’s got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red–
–unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe. In which case there’s a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior. And that’s all kinds of bad.
But hey. It’s probably not that. I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?
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OK... but in what context?
“She couldn’t have altered the flow of time at the heart of Winter,” I said quietly. “Only one of the Winter Queens could do that.”
'm still noticing that, even if Mab wasn't expecting the Summerfire (per nadia's WoJ), she DID still get a big ol' pile of Starborn magic funneled into the Winterwell, which wouldn't exactly have helped Nemesis find its Happy Place...
It appears to me that it, in fact, it almost did let Nemesis find it's happy space.
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It appears to me that it, in fact, it almost did let Nemesis find it's happy space.
Do you mean by almost releasing nemfected Lea? I don't think Mab would have allowed that to happen.
Dunno, man.
This quote seems to imply that the Ladies have out-smarted Mab on the "cunning manipulations" front. Freaking MAB.
I'm not buying that.
Of course... given that Mab was apparently right there all along, hidden beside Lea, it's equally possible that the plan went off mostly as the Maeve&Lily wanted it to... which was, in most regards, ALSO mostly as Mab wanted it to.
You are both right and wrong at the same time. The Ladies did not out-smart Mab. In fact, you could say THEY didn't do anything, the Adversary did. Poor Lily thought she was a becoming a real power player, when in fact she was just an easily manipulated puppet. Maeve was pulling her strings and Maeve in turn was run by the Adversary. Maeve's entire motivation was to screw over her Mom for past grievances, so she went along with the Adversary's plan. If it had just been Maeve and Lily working together on their own I doubt they would have been much of a challenge for Mab to outmaneuver.
I think it's only in Cold Days when Maeve put her own spin on the Adversary's orders by killing Lily in order to both remove her possible replacement and take Sarissa away from Mab.
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Thus the use of almost.
I'll make an observation. The only chance Harry had against the eldest fetch was the Summer Fire he used. His own fire spell wasn't working. Did Mab intend for Harry to die?
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... I'll make an observation. The only chance Harry had against the eldest fetch was the Summer Fire he used. His own fire spell wasn't working. Did Mab intend for Harry to die?
I think Mab planned on Harry to go to Lily for help, and for Lily to "get clever" and give Harry some Summer Fire. I'm not an ice-blooded immortal manipulator, and even I can see that much playing out ahead of time. So it keeps Harry alive without Mab having to manifest overtly.
Harry's use of it on the Winter Well was not expected... but then... it's Harry, with new fire-toy, and a new kind of destruction to cause. So it was kind of inevitable, really.
I think Mab may be sort of "blinkered" to certain Summer/Winter things, unable to look beyond certain conceptual frameworks, because of what she is (or she'd likely also have seen how likely it was for Harry "Building on Fire" Dresden to do that thing). Mostly, she sees deeper and further and broader than any mortal. On a (very!) few points... blinkers.
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Harry throws Summer fire three times. For those that are interested in these kind of things, Jim telegraphs what is going to happen back in the theater. Lily uses a butterfly to kill a fetch. And of course Jim has the butterfly flit in Harry's face when he begins the fight with the Scarecrow. So I think she expected what Lily did and what Harry would do. Contrast what happens in Small Favors when using fire will hurt more than it helps.
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... So I think she expected what Lily did and what Harry would do.
Yeah, that's what I thought too. But that WoJ pretty strongly implies that Summerfiring the Winterwell was unexpected by Mab.
Lily's giving Summerfire... yeah, Mab saw that a mile away; she was counting on it (so her proto-Knight didn't get all Kudzutized).
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Jim says any number of things. However the closer you look the less there is to see. She's powerful enough to send the fetches, yet it is fairly obvious that they are summoned in attack two and three. In the second attack we get a fleeting glimpse of the perp running away and Jim calls out familiar magic. And better yet in the last attack, the one that gets Molly taken to Arctis Tor, someone kills the lights and alarms in the convention center. By sabotage. And Harry is the one to send the fetches after Molly and has a Knight of The Crosses family attacked and daughter kidnapped. And then we have the attack at the Fool Moon garage. And yet Jim says Mab had Molly brought to Arctis Tor. What does that mean in context.
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@morriswalters
I don’t know if that’s necessarily true regarding Summerfire being the only way Harry could take down Eldest Fetch, given how well he performed in the Faerie war in SK, & he was fresh off beating a bunch of necromancers.. I do believe that Mab was not expecting Harry to have access to Summerfire, or to use it differently if he did - this is one I believe Lily got past Maeve & Mab both (mostly since they weren’t expecting her to show any initiative of her own).
Since you’re in the camp that believes that Mab allowed the assault to happen & was actually in full control the whole time (except for the Nfected Maeve part), was Harry in any real danger against Eldest Fetch? Mab could presumably have dispatched it at any time since she had run the table at this time.
Instead my alternative theory to you is:
Maeve has convinced Mab that like Aurora, Lily too has been taken (which is possible given how long Aurora had Lily ‘kidnapped’ in SK & Maeve’s subsequent manipulations). This is why Mab places all her troops at the Summer border - she is expecting the next Nemesis attack to come from there, which is why she doesn’t attack the Ramps encroaching on her territory. Her actions unfortunately mandate that Summer must respond in kind, leading to the opening of PG.
Of course the attack comes from Winter, which catches Mab by surprise but she is able to power through it & defeat the assault on Arctis Tor. Once she had won, she figured out that Molly is also part of the BC’s play. Therefore she kidnaps Molly to get her out of the Black Council’s clutches since they have been clearly planning something involving her for a while. She has Molly brought to her stronghold which she has just won in a brutal fight (hence it is the safest place in Winter) - knowing that the Black council will send someone to rescue Molly, Mab puts Eldest Fetch in charge of guarding Molly - it will kill her if Molly is found to have been Nfected already.
Maeve tries to outplay Mab by sending Harry to get Molly back (either Harry dies trying to save Molly, or he saves her & removes her from Mab’s control, perhaps saving Lea on the way as a bonus). Like the caterpillar that Lea has guarding Harry’s apt from the NN attacks Harry in Changes, so too does Eldest Fetch - it simply doing what it was asked by Mab - guard the girl & kill anyone sent to ‘rescue’ her. Mab knows that Michael is fighting Outsiders in OR so he isn’t likely to come soon. Maeve was probably fine with Harry being given the Summerfire since it will further the fiction to Mab that the Nfected Lily has Harry under her thumb. She also is the one who speeds up time Tewary in the final seconds because she wants the returning Winter armies to kill Harry - another reason why she is initially ok with Harry being given the butterfly.
Mab is relieved that Harry was sent since she knows that he is not Nfected, so allows the fight to take place - if Harry can’t dispatch Eldest Fetch, perhaps he is not yet ready to become the WK (Mab would step in presumably before Fetch kills Harry) - Harry will have much tougher opponents for what Mab has in mind. The Summerfire was unexpected, but it is what allowed Harry to win - like Odin says in CD, Harry has friends & needs them in order to survive what he is up against - Lily who likes Harry a lot personally & feels bad about manipulating him gives him the butterfly to accomplish 2 things - attack the Wellspring &, save himself. Maeve is peeved when she realizes what Lily has done, which allows Harry & his cohort to be saved before the arriving Winter armies can destroy him.
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@morriswalters
I don’t know if that’s necessarily true regarding Summerfire being the only way Harry could take down Eldest Fetch - given how well he performed in the Faerie war in SK, & he was fresh off beating a bunch of necromancers.. I do believe that Mab was not expecting Harry to have access to Summerfire, or to use it differently if he did - this is one I believe Lily got past Maeve & Mab both (mostly since they weren’t expecting her to show any initiative of her own).
Since you’re in the camp that believes that Mab allowed the assault to happen & was actually in full control the whole time (except for the Nfected Maeve part), was Harry in any real danger against Eldest Fetch? Mab could presumably have dispatched it at any time since she had run the table at that point.
We’ve argued before about this - if Mab was
No book before or after this one has so many loose ends. It's very hard to come up with a scenario that puts Harry at Arctis Tor that don't have Mab playing puppeteer. The Black Council shows up with a team and major Hellfire, maybe with Lucifer's aid, and speculating as to how far they got, the only answer that works, is not very far at all. Harry shows up with Thomas, Murphy, Charity and himself. And gets an invitation to the penthouse. And Mab winks at him on the way out.
Now look at the other side of the coin. Three attacks at the Con. The first is different then the other two. Mainly in that nobody gets killed. Drop the lights and go to work at that point and the fetches could have had a field day. But they're in and out, no myrk, no flickering lights, and Nelson's only hazard is making a mess by moving too quick. The only conceivable reason for that attack it to make sure that the theater was empty. With a stretch gosl of keeping Harry from killing himself with LC.
About Lily and Maeve.“That is one way to describe it,” Lily said quietly. “I would not, myself, interpret it that way. I had no part in bringing the fetches here—but their presence and their capture of Lady Charity’s daughter presented us with an opportunity to temporarily neutralize the presence of Mab’s forces upon our borders.”
I not we. It only becomes us later in the paragraph. A suspicious mind would infer that Maeve sent the fetches. And Lily has done this, look the other way while bad things happen, at Maeve's behest before, in Cold Days.
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I disagree about the assault not getting very far - Harry explicitly states while examining the damage on his way to the ‘penthouse’ that an entire section of remains are from Mab’s personal guard who died defending her way to the Wellspring. That and the fact that Mab, Molly & Eldest Fetch are the only beings alive in Arctis Tor when Harry & co. take their field trip there makes me think that Mab won a costly victory that required her to retreat to the stronghold within her castle.
So are you saying that Mab was responsible for the first attack on the Con & Maeve for the other 2?
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Well, the attack is over. Whatever had happened was finished and Thorned Namshiel was gone. If there was no one there but Mab and the fetches, then it was because that was the way Mab wanted it. And there is no indication that they ever got close to the Wellspring. I can infer what the attack was about. It wasn't a plot by Nic, in Small Favor he is shocked when he hears. So some variation of the Black Council. One of the first things Eb asks Harry to do is
Find out why the Sidhe haven’t gone to war.
The attacks in Dead Beat are the only explanation for why Mab doesn't retaliate. And as such accomplished their goal.So are you saying that Mab was responsible for the first attack on the Con & Maeve for the other 2?
Three counting the one at the Fool Moon Garage. I don't like having to look at what Jim has written and parse the words for that kind of nuance, but certainly Lily could have said, we didn't send the fetches, rather than I didn't. And in hindsight we know the whole Mab is nuts thing is a ploy by Maeve encouraged by the adversary.
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I assumed the Black Council's assault on Arctis Tor was an attempt to release Lea, so Infected Lea might be able to corrupt the Well.
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What question is asked by Eb at the beginning? Why didn't Mab attack the Reds? Because somebody with testicles that drag the ground blew the portcullis at Arctis Tor to flinders.
Lily nodded. “Like us, she fears Mab’s recent madness.” She turned back to me. “I provided you with power enough to threaten the wellspring, in the hope that you would draw some portion of Winter back into its own demesnes. Once that was done, Maeve altered the passage of time relative to the mortal realms.”
The time effect is the reason why the raid could have been nothing more than a feint. There wouldn't have been time with all of faerie coming hell bent for leather, to do much else. However Lily's butterfly almost accomplished it anyway.
What should intrigue you is the portal at the theater. Can you imagine that the ways into Arctis Tor are any less difficult to open then the ways to Hades?
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What should intrigue you is the portal at the theater. Can you imagine that the ways into Arctis Tor are any less difficult to open then the ways to Hades?
Well, the portal opened up a good distance from Arctis Tor and then they had to walk. It's not like it opened up inside the walls.
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@morriswalters
Regarding Winter & Summer not attacking the Ramps - I gave you an alternative & plausible theory as to why - Maeve lies to Mab about Lily being Nfected.
The theory you are proposing would require Mab to remain in a destroyed Arctis Tor alone for a year (or a long time anyway given the flow of time in Faerie) with no front gates anymore, & it would only be her defending the entire city - given that the Black Council is not vanquished, this would be extraordinarily ballsy of her given everything that has happened. She wasn’t able to kill the wielder of hellfire for a while later (even then Michael did it) so he’s certainly out there during the events of PG, not to mention the other BC agents scattered throughout the world. On top of that, she sends away her army to stymie Summer as well which ends up helping the Ramps & BC in the short-term - what would be the purpose of this?
Convincing the world that she was crazy would not suffice - what is the benefit? Clearly her true enemies wouldn’t underestimate her since by your theory, she handily won the attempted assault on Arctis Tor.
Also why would Mab be pressured to send help during DB? It seems pretty clearly to be the responsibility of the White Council, who end up sending a team & deputizing Harry to stop it. I don’t understand the link you are drawing between the Arctis Tor assault & the timing of DB... the only thing we can infer is that the attack happened after she appeared in place of Lea in DB.
Regarding Maeve being behind the latter 3 attacks including Fool Moon garage - why would the Scarecrow kill Glau first then? If anything it should’ve struck at Thomas or Harry since Madrigal & Glau were doing things beneficial to Nfected Maeve? Glau is even suspected of being a BC agent.
On the whole, I like your point about both Mab & Maeve being responsible for different attacks though, it makes sense.
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Also why would Mab be pressured to send help during DB? It seems pretty clearly to be the responsibility of the White Council, who end up sending a team & deputizing Harry to stop it. I don’t understand the link you are drawing between the Arctis Tor assault & the timing of DB... the only thing we can infer is that the attack happened after she appeared in place of Lea in DB.
Not Dead Beat, the events happening off page in Dead Beat. The attack on Cairo."We had many wounded," Luccio said. "So many wounded. As soon as the Senior Council was able to open the ways into the Nevernever, we retreated to the paths through Faerie. And we were pursued."
I sat up straight. "What?"
Morgan nodded. "The Red Court followed us into the territory of the Sidhe," he said.
"They had to know," I said quietly. "They had to know that by pressing the attack in Faerie itself they would anger the Sidhe. They've just declared war on Summer and Winter alike."
And that group of Wardens was five, not counting Harry. In the attack 200 Wardens died leaving the White Council 50. And 45000 mortals in the Congo. This is my link to the attack at Arctis Tor. This was to keep the Sidhe out of the game so the vamps could destroy the Senior Council and in one strike end the war. While everybody was doing that, Cowl was trying to raise himself to Godhood.
Edit
I'm having a hard time accepting your premise that Lily as a character had enough menace to make Mab feel threatened enough to defer action against the Reds. And it's hard to see Mab believing that Titania would let Lily use the troops of Summer to lead an attack against Winter, given that they hold each other in check. So what threat does Lily hold sufficient to Mab's response prior to the attack on Arctis Tor?
How do you account for the portal at the theater and the attack on Pell? The WOJ posted earlier has Jim saying that Mab brought Molly to Arctis Tor. It also seems obvious that that Black Council attack was launched through a portal. We either have to assign Mab the title of cretin or we have to assume that Mab didn't think she could be attacked because she controls portals to her domain as Hades controls his. The theater portal is used to transport Molly since the fetches don't need it. This supports my premise that the attack on Pell was about that portal. It got Molly to Arctis Tor.
The question I can't answer is did the Black Council use this portal to launch their attack? The timing is suggestive without being definitive assuming my premise. The Con was setup at about the time that I posit the attack occurred. The Con's theme would have been conducive to setting up the conditions for the portal to link to deep Winter. This setup would have required the participation of a Queen of Faerie. Which is why I pointed out earlier that there are three Queens.
The weakness to my WAG is explaining why Molly was led into Black Magic.
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@morriswalters
I think one of the issues is that we don’t know if Mab ordered her troops to the Summer border before or after the assault on Arctis Tor.
You seem to think that she does it after the assault - why? By doing this, she effectively locks up Summer’s troops for nearly a year as well, giving the Ramps free passage during that time, while she stays undefended at Arctis Tor.
There is a fair amount of evidence that the events of PG were set up a year ago (like the Summer/Winter army stalemate, Molly getting in trouble etc), showing that this is Plan B for the Black Council since one of their own didn’t become a necro-god.
An issue with your theory regarding the BC assault being launched through the portal at the Con would be that it places that assault on Arctis Tor on my timeline of it happening & not a year ago like you are positing.
My theory is that Mab placed her troops at the border before the assault - the only reason for this would be that she had a strong suspicion that the biggest threat to her purpose would come from that direction. This would make sense if Maeve lies to Mab, telling her that Lily is likely Nfected - Maeve would be able to convince Mab of the ‘danger’ posed by Lily because Maeve is manipulating a lot of Lily’s actions. Remember, Aurora was almost able to start a Faerie war by having her own Knight killed - she didn’t need to move any troops around. Titania is clearly in mourning for Aurora & not all that interested in the fate of the world as seen in CD. So Mab, convinced by Maeve that the Nfected Lily is setting plans in motion to threaten Winter, places her troops at the Summer border, leaving Arctis Tor fairly light on defense. This gives the BC the opening they need to attack, when they think Mab has been lulled into a false sense of security.
This also answers the question regarding everyone’s interest in Molly - believing that Lily has been Nfected, Mab decides to replace her with Molly (hence the seemingly throwaway line in CD where she tells Harry that she’d originally considered Molly to “be a better candidate for Summer”). Maeve of course leaks this to the Black Council, who decide to Nfect Molly for real. This is why Mab whisks Molly back to Arctis Tor as soon as she is able.
Regarding the portal - I mean there is one explanation - Maeve can also create portals to Arctis Tor. There is no evidence that Mab can control portal-access to her realm, or that Hades can - I think this is one of the benefits of free will. If they could, why would they need defenses or guardians?
Also why would Mab need a portal to get Molly back to Arctis Tor? Surely she can just appear wherever she wants, unless you’re suggesting that every time Mab comes to Chicago she enters through Pell’s theater? We also know from SK that there are portals to Winter in Undertown.
The attacks on the Con have been planned a year in advance - this is why Darby Crane was invited back then - he was always going to be the fall guy for this.
An alternative reason for the attacks could be to keep Harry & Michael busy trying to solve them while the BC is able to go about its business. This theory is admittedly light, because I do believe that more was going on with the attacks, especially with your points about the portals.
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Not feeling up to snuff but this one is fairly easy.
There is no evidence that Mab can control portal-access to her realm, or that Hades can - I think this is one of the benefits of free will. If they could, why would they need defenses or guardians?
In Cold Days Mab locks the borders of her realm so no one can leave giving Harry a head start. Location 1444 of the Kindle Version. I'm not going to quote it now, maybe later when I answer the rest of your post. I will tell you what I speculate. I think we will find out that portal magic is part of the function of the Outer Gates.
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@morriswalters
A couple of things about that:
- The events of PG take place during summer when Mab is at her weakest, where as when she is able to shut down access in CD, it is after the fall Equinox when her power is growing again
- She was only able to shut it down for 1 night, not forever
Looking forward to the rest of your response when you are able.
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Maeve of course leaks this to the Black Council, who decide to Nfect Molly for real.
As seen in Cold Days, Maeve doesn't know Mab has set Molly up to be a Lady.
Not feeling up to snuff but this one is fairly easy.In Cold Days Mab locks the borders of her realm
Not just her realm, but all of Faerie.
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An issue with your theory regarding the BC assault being launched through the portal at the Con would be that it places that assault on Arctis Tor on my timeline of it happening & not a year ago like you are positing.
I cheat. ;) In my theory the portal was set up a year ago, not during PG. And besides, Jim cheats.“It’s all relative,” I said. “Time can pass at different rates in Faerie. These bones could have fallen a thousand years ago, by the local clock. Or twenty minutes ago.”
The Faerie war took place in Chicago over Chicago, the point was to give Winter the Summer Knights Mantle. It wasn't an invasion of Winter. It isn't that it couldn't work the way you think, but I'm limiting myself to things I know did occur to supply motivation for those things that I think occurred. So I know that the BC hit Arctis Tor. So the motivation for Winter going to the Summer border is based on that. Mab knows who the people were who participated in the raid. She says as much. But knowing who was behind it is another matter. But since someone set up a portal then the assault team had the help of someone in Faerie.
If she didn't kill Thorned Namshiel during the attack it was because he had access to the power of an archangel. But she has 50000 troops and her own power and as is shown in Proven Guilty the border isn't that far away in time from Arctis Tor. So having Arctis Tor defended so lightly isn't worrisome. And as someone reminded me on Reddit, the attack never got inside the fortress, only the courtyard.
More later, maybe. This is a lotta fun, but I'm old and my brains are fried.
I read it like this. The assault team enters through the portal and makes their way to the fortress.(they had to get in close somehow) Mab rallies her guard when they are spotted. She makes for the wellspring to defend it if worse comes to worse. Then Thorned Namshiel throws Hellfire to break the portcullis. Every body in Winter senses this and takes off hell bent for leather to the fortress. He uses hellfire again in the courtyard to kill the guard at the tower. Like Harry he senses the Winter forces coming. Maybe Mab is bending time against the attackers. And to paraphrase a song, anything Maeve can do, Mab can do better. Throrned Namshiel is outta time. Getting trapped inside the fortress walls is something he would like to avoid. He scoots.
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In Cold Days Mab locks the borders of her realm so no one can leave giving Harry a head start.
Isn't this noted as being extremely difficult and delicate work, even for someone on Mab's level? And it was definitely mentioned that it couldn't last past dawn.
OTOH, Mab also creates a portal from Harry's closet to Chicago, and that's not noted as being particularly difficult for someone on Mab's level, so that's probably better evidence that she could also have created the portal at Pell's theater.
As seen in Cold Days, Maeve doesn't know Mab has set Molly up to be a Lady.
This isn't seen, actually. Molly was behind a veil, so Maeve didn't know she was around. Therefore, even if she knew that Molly had at one point been prepared as a Lady, she would have no reason to expect that to be able to interfere with her plans.
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I cheat. ;) In my theory the portal was set up a year ago, not during PG. And besides, Jim cheats.
I had considered that but abandoned it because I couldn’t come up with why? So let’s assume the BC attacks Mab through a time traveling portal (since she can control portal access according to you, why didn’t she stop this?) that brings them out a year ago during DB. Why? As of PG, the BC is aware their other ploys in DB (Darkhallow & eliminating wardens+SC) has failed - if they are using time travel, wouldn’t it make more sense to go back & try to succeed at the Darkhallow? Their necro-god would then be able to take on Mab & breach Arctis Tor without too much issue.
What about Odin’s law of conservation of history? He explicitly says that it is much easier to shape the future than alter the past.
The Faerie war took place in Chicago over Chicago, the point was to give Winter the Summer Knights Mantle. It wasn't an invasion of Winter. It isn't that it couldn't work the way you think, but I'm limiting myself to things I know did occur to supply motivation for those things that I think occurred. So I know that the BC hit Arctis Tor. So the motivation for Winter going to the Summer border is based on that. Mab knows who the people were who participated in the raid. She says as much. But knowing who was behind it is another matter.
Hmm, Nemesis was trying to start a Faerie war by using the SK mantle as the trigger. Aurora was also aware that her actions would lead to war but saw it as collateral damage to end the ages old conflict.
I also do not understand the link you’re making with the BC assault on Arctis Tor & therefore Mab sent her troops to the Summer border. Are you implying that someone from Summer was involved in the assault & that is why Mab sent her troops there for a year?
I read it like this. The assault team enters through the portal and makes their way to the fortress.(they had to get in close somehow) Mab rallies her guard when they are spotted. She makes for the wellspring to defend it if worse comes to worse. Then Thorned Namshiel throws Hellfire to break the portcullis. Every body in Winter senses this and takes off hell bent for leather to the fortress. He uses hellfire again in the courtyard to kill the guard at the tower. Like Harry he senses the Winter forces coming. Maybe Mab is bending time against the attackers. And to paraphrase a song, anything Maeve can do, Mab can do better. Throrned Namshiel is outta time. Getting trapped inside the fortress walls is something he would like to avoid. He scoots.
This would make the BC seem like rank amateurs - they sent 1 powerful sorcerer with a small army to take on Mab at Arctis Tor??! Considering the BC in DB sends overwhelming power to further strategic goals (like summoning Outsiders & their atrocities against the WC), that seems like an under-powered move with a low chance of survival. Nobody believes that Namshiel could take on Mab, especially in her demesne.
For the attack to have been in line with the other BC ones in DB (a parallel you’re drawing in your theory), it would have to be a lot more savage & threatening, with Mab just about pulling out a victory.
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As seen in Cold Days, Maeve doesn't know Mab has set Molly up to be a Lady.
Well Mab doesn’t set Molly up as a Lady in PG either - all I said was that she had planned to, but it seems like the BC got there first.
Post-PG Mab is aware that Maeve is Nfected, so she has Lea prepare Molly to be a ‘vessel’.
@nadia points out how this plays out in CD
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This would make the BC seem like rank amateurs - they sent 1 powerful sorcerer with a small army to take on Mab at Arctis Tor??! Considering the BC in DB sends overwhelming power to further strategic goals (like summoning Outsiders & their atrocities against the WC), that seems like an under-powered move with a low chance of survival. Nobody believes that Namshiel could take on Mab, especially in her demesne.
For the attack to have been in line with the other BC ones in DB (a parallel you’re drawing in your theory), it would have to be a lot more savage & threatening, with Mab just about pulling out a victory.
They sent a small army to achieve a specific purpose. A few details. All the dead that we know about died when hellfire was thrown at Arctis Tor and belonged to the defenders. No bones of any of the attackers is seen, and the only living beings at Arctis Tor that are revealed are the fetches. The portcullis is blown apart, yet the tower is intact. There is no indication that anything other than the fight in the courtyard occurred. And if Mab is so frightened of an attack occurring at Arctis Tor again why is it so lightly defended. One Wizard, one White vampire and two mortal females knock on the door and make their way to the Well Spring with the aid of an automatic door.
I'm not suggesting any time traveling portals, I am simply saying that Mab does something similar to what we know that Maeve did. If Maeve can slow the rate of time for the forces returning to the border to give Summer the time to carry out attacks against the Reds then one could presume that Mab could stretch time to slow any forces attacking her stronghold. And one year after the incursion the Reds are still moving in Faerie unless we assume that Summer sends her troops to the mortal realm to strike at the Reds.
Whatever happened at Arctis Tor happened at the heart of Winter. It takes all the Summer Lady's strength to hold the portal open. If the portal is the path the assault on Arctis Tor occurs through, then it seems reasonable to assume that someone of at least her power level was required to do the same for the forces involved in the assault. If Mab knows what happened she may not know who aided the BC to make it happen. And the list of suspects who could aid them is short. And Summer is the only true credible threat. Summer is the only force that could attack from the border of Winter and hope to win through.
Now tally the forces. Lea is down, the Winter knight's power is not in play. And Mab has to at least be suspicious that Lea has compromised others in the time she has had to spread the contagion.(which we know to be the case) And may fear that Aurora did something similar to Summer. She has to play defense, hunker down and ride it out until the Courts are back at parity and she has the freedom and forces to move against her enemies. And picture this against the background of what we know Maeve wasn't doing, which was keeping the army fed with troops.
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This would make the BC seem like rank amateurs - they sent 1 powerful sorcerer with a small army to take on Mab at Arctis Tor??!...
Unless of course Mab suckered them. Made it seem like she was busy at the Summer/Winter border, like only a few Fetches and other minor forces remained at A.Tor...
Then... yeah, a powerful sorceror (using Hellfire, remember) & backed by a Fallen Angel, with a small army in tow, does look like an overwhelmingly-powerful strike force.
But all of this is offscren, and thus (barring WoJ?) pure WAGing.
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Of course it's a WAG. :D
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Well Mab doesn’t set Molly up as a Lady in PG either - all I said was that she had planned to, but it seems like the BC got there first.
Post-PG Mab is aware that Maeve is Nfected, so she has Lea prepare Molly to be a ‘vessel’.
@nadia points out how this plays out in CD
You said that Mab planned to, and that Maeve leaked this, implying that Maeve knew. If Maeve knew then, why didn't she know in Cold Days as well?
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They sent a small army to achieve a specific purpose. A few details. All the dead that we know about died when hellfire was thrown at Arctis Tor and belonged to the defenders. No bones of any of the attackers is seen, and the only living beings at Arctis Tor that are revealed are the fetches. The portcullis is blown apart, yet the tower is intact. There is no indication that anything other than the fight in the courtyard occurred. And if Mab is so frightened of an attack occurring at Arctis Tor again why is it so lightly defended. One Wizard, one White vampire and two mortal females knock on the door and make their way to the Well Spring with the aid of an automatic door.
Hmm the text does not support this - unfortunately I have the audiobooks so I can’t copy paste the exact text, but if you re-read the scene where Harry & Co. first make it out to Arctis Tor (Chapter 36), there are subtle hints that other things were at play here. For example, when Harry is examining the bones at the entrance to the city (50 yards from walls), he notices that some bones were “pulverized to dust in some places” & “warped like melted wax in others”, combined with the fact that he notices acid had pitted the walls of Arctis Tor & smells hellfire in some of the other larger craters on the same wall tells me that there were forces in addition to Hell playing a part in the assault.
By the time Harry gets to the main gate, he is wading “shin deep through bones. Whoever they had been, thousands of their kind had perished here... Where the gate arched beneath the fortress walls, there were still more bones, waist deep on me”. In chapter 37, as Harry goes deeper into Arctis Tor beyond the gateway he notes that there are so many bones that he can longer walk through them, he has to walk atop them.
Harry explicitly notes that the courtyard is littered with the bones of Mab’s defenders. “Echoes bounced back & forth in the courtyard, somehow carrying a tone of disapproval & menace with them. Bones spilled out in a wave from the gate, rapidly tapering off after a few yards. Beyond that, were only scattered groupings of bones.” Harry notes these are trolls, 13 of Mab’s personal guard. He then notes that the “remains of perhaps a thousand creatures lay scattered about”, mentioning that even in GP when he let loose, he was only able to fry a bunch of Ramps/people, nothing on this scale. He goes on to note while examining the remains in the courtyard that “the littler ones were goblins, foot soldiers.... these trolls were her [Mab’s] personal guard, covering her retreat to the tower maybe. Some of them got taken down along the way, others made a stand at the tower’s base, died there.”
This shows that the either the fortress was not lightly defended or the army attacking was not small, since Harry is unable to identify the bones this far in (except the courtyard). There was clearly a substantial battle, & while most of Winter’s troops were at the Summer border, there were clearly thousands of Winter defenders who gave their lives during the assault on Arctis Tor.
The presence of thousands of bones in the courtyard - those of goblins & trolls decimated by hellfire shows that the attack made it fairly deep into the fortress - but the attackers were unable to breach the spire for some reason (where Molly is held).
The entire reading of Harry’s thoughts as he makes it to the spire does not read to me like Mab masterfully sacrificed thousands of her subjects just to see who would come to attack her fortress.
I'm not suggesting any time traveling portals, I am simply saying that Mab does something similar to what we know that Maeve did. If Maeve can slow the rate of time for the forces returning to the border to give Summer the time to carry out attacks against the Reds then one could presume that Mab could stretch time to slow any forces attacking her stronghold. And one year after the incursion the Reds are still moving in Faerie unless we assume that Summer sends her troops to the mortal realm to strike at the Reds.
This is an interesting idea & one I hadn’t thought of. So you’re saying that Mab figures out that someone from Summer is involved in the assault on Arctis Tor, so she sends all her troops to the Summer border & then slows down time at Arctis Tor for nearly a year (while only a few days pass at AT) so she can deal with the assault?
Definitely a cool theory, although I’m not so sure that Lily was involved in the initial BC assault - there seems little need for it. And Mab doing this would definitely complicate the complex timeline of events considerably.
Whatever happened at Arctis Tor happened at the heart of Winter. It takes all the Summer Lady's strength to hold the portal open. If the portal is the path the assault on Arctis Tor occurs through, then it seems reasonable to assume that someone of at least her power level was required to do the same for the forces involved in the assault. If Mab knows what happened she may not know who aided the BC to make it happen. And the list of suspects who could aid them is short. And Summer is the only true credible threat. Summer is the only force that could attack from the border of Winter and hope to win through.
Now tally the forces. Lea is down, the Winter knight's power is not in play. And Mab has to at least be suspicious that Lea has compromised others in the time she has had to spread the contagion.(which we know to be the case) And may fear that Aurora did something similar to Summer. She has to play defense, hunker down and ride it out until the Courts are back at parity and she has the freedom and forces to move against her enemies. And picture this against the background of what we know Maeve wasn't doing, which was keeping the army fed with troops.
It still seems easier for Maeve to have been the inside help the BC needed to open a direct portal, although even this is not necessarily true given how Harry is able to open a portal to Hades in SG, without Hades’ help in doing so.
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You said that Mab planned to, and that Maeve leaked this, implying that Maeve knew. If Maeve knew then, why didn't she know in Cold Days as well?
Well my theory is that Maeve tells Mab that Lily is Nfected in PG, which makes Mab start looking at Molly as a replacement. However after PG, Mab has realized that Maeve is actually Nfected, so is no longer in her confidence. She also realizes that Lily is not Nfected, so there is no need to replace her.
As a result, Mab has Molly stay with Harry for a few years & only has Lea begin preparing Molly to be a Fae vessel after Harry’s ‘death’, & on the sly so Maeve is not aware.
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You have my statement backwards. It was lightly defended after the attack not before.
And if Mab is so frightened of an attack occurring at Arctis Tor again why is it so lightly defended.
Bones spilled out in a wave from the gate, rapidly tapering off after a few yards. Beyond that were only scattered groupings of bones. Thomas drifted over to one such and poked at it with his drawn saber. The blade scraped on a skull too big to stuff into an oil drum, too heavy and thick to look entirely human.
I'm okay with some of the bones being the attackers. But someone threw hellfire against the walls. And the bulk of the dead are in the passage, inside the fortress are the trolls and goblins. So there was one hell of a fight. The bulk died in the tunnel or died trying either to keep them out or trying to get past the defenders, but once they got in, they were in. And they killed the Palace Guard. And then what? Surely the the residents of Winter would have their vengeance on at that point. They're quick enough when Harry throws Summer fire. The attackers never breech the center tower where the wellspring is. So they kicked the door in and left?
This is an interesting idea & one I hadn’t thought of. So you’re saying that Mab figures out that someone from Summer is involved in the assault on Arctis Tor, so she sends all her troops to the Summer border & then slows down time at Arctis Tor for nearly a year (while only a few days pass at AT) so she can deal with the assault?
Not quite. Mab knows who the attackers are, but not who sent them. She defends against the enemy she knows and protects her center.
The fortress in undefended, accept by the fetches, Yet everything that was important is still there. The prisoners, Mab and the wellspring. Given the events of Summer Knight, the prisoners are important if for no other reason then the loss of the power of Slate's mantle would shatter Winter, which we can infer from the reaction of Titania when the Summer Knights mantle was hidden. And Lea is described as the second most powerful person in Faerie, and she's even more dangerous turned. If she didn't slow the passage of time at the fortress why isn't the castle fixed and some kind of guard in place. And why is that portal at the theater available yet.
Jim's playing with time in this whole sequence. The dead are bones, Thomas calls this out and Harry shrugs. Jim's obfuscating. I would give a lot to know why. I can hear him cackling.It still seems easier for Maeve to have been the inside help the BC needed to open a direct portal, although even this is not necessarily true given how Harry is able to open a portal to Hades in SG, without Hades’ help in doing so.
Note that Lily holds the portal open, which is the key. One portal is a locked room to locked room, the other is a theater into the wilds of Faerie. No maps and no GPS ;D The screen is the link.
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You have my statement backwards. It was lightly defended after the attack not before.I'm okay with some of the bones being the attackers. But someone threw hellfire against the walls. And the bulk of the dead are in the passage, inside the fortress are the trolls and goblins. So there was one hell of a fight. The bulk died in the tunnel or died trying either to keep them out or trying to get past the defenders, but once they got in, they were in. And they killed the Palace Guard. And then what? Surely the the residents of Winter would have their vengeance on at that point. They're quick enough when Harry throws Summer fire. The attackers never breech the center tower where the wellspring is. So they kicked the door in and left?
Not quite. Mab knows who the attackers are, but not who sent them. She defends against the enemy she knows and protects her center.
There were thousands of Palace guard who perished in the assault, which is one of the reasons I don’t believe Mab suckered the attackers into the assault. I’m not sure where you’re getting the link between attacking the walls of AT & it summoning all of Winter’s forces - the only thing we saw capable of that was Harry throwing Summerfire within the spire where the Wellspring lies - we know the attackers didn’t get this far.
Why the assault was unable to breach the spire in the courtyard is a good question. Perhaps Mab/ her forces were able to kill the wielder of Namshiel but unable to collect his coin (presumably whisked away by his cohort) which stopped the assault. Or perhaps the attackers realized that the spire was impregnable with the tools they’d brought (since they didn’t have a necro-god with them) - they’d need a god’s Power to breach it.
The fortress in undefended, accept by the fetches, Yet everything that was important is still there. The prisoners, Mab and the wellspring. Given the events of Summer Knight, the prisoners are important if for no other reason then the loss of the power of Slate's mantle would shatter Winter, which we can infer from the reaction of Titania when the Summer Knights mantle was hidden. And Lea is described as the second most powerful person in Faerie, and she's even more dangerous turned. If she didn't slow the passage of time at the fortress why isn't the castle fixed and some kind of guard in place. And why is that portal at the theater available yet.
Jim's playing with time in this whole sequence. The dead are bones, Thomas calls this out and Harry shrugs. Jim's obfuscating. I would give a lot to know why. I can hear him cackling.Note that Lily holds the portal open, which is the key. One portal is a locked room to locked room, the other is a theater into the wilds of Faerie. No maps and no GPS ;D The screen is the link.
By your theory of the attack happening nearly a year ago, yes Mab keeps her fortress undefended for a while, but if the attack happened a few days/ weeks before PG, then it would make sense as to why the only people/ beings in AT are the ones Mab allows in there - one of the reasons I believe Mab was controlling Eldest Fetch.
At the time of PG (which occurs in the summer), Mab/ Winter are weak, which is a much better time to attack them than DB, which is on Halloween during when Winter is stronger. Mab would also be more afraid of Summer attacking during the summer than she would of them attacking in Winter.
The assault was stopped by Mab before they could get to her ‘vault’ within the spire - the way it reads to me, this was a hard fought victory for Mab, not an ingenious plan to sacrifice thousands of her Palace Guard for an ephemeral victory.
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I’m not sure where you’re getting the link between attacking the walls of AT & it summoning all of Winter’s forces - the only thing we saw capable of that was Harry throwing Summerfire within the spire where the Wellspring lies - we know the attackers didn’t get this far.
Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
The assault was stopped by Mab before they could get to her ‘vault’ within the spire - the way it reads to me, this was a hard fought victory for Mab, not an ingenious plan to sacrifice thousands of her Palace Guard for an ephemeral victory.
Ephemeral victory? Sacrifice? I don't think so. In a nutshell what I'm saying is that Mab was betrayed. Somebody brought the BC in close to Arctis Tor by creating a condition that would link Pell's theater to that spot in Winter, within hiking distance of Mab's front door. The BC was acting on the Red's behalf , probably for some future favor. It also kept the Council from acting in force during the Dark Hallow since the Red's were busy killing them inside Faerie. Or so I theorize.
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@morriswalters
Bare bones, our theories seem to mesh a fair amount except for a few things:
- When the attack on AT took place - although I like the theory that the attack happened during DB but Mab slowed down time at AT so a year looks like a few weeks so she can deal with the assault - I’ll need to think about it some more, but it looks good.
If you’re saying that the BC had a 3 pronged attack planned during DB to hit the Venatori, then WC/ wardens & then AT, remember that there is a BC (Ramp+Outsider) attack happening in parallel during PG as well- this is why Michael went to OR to rescue the kids & SC - if Mab had won for a year, why didn’t she do anything to help there? Perhaps the assault on AT was timed in parallel to the attack in OR so Mab couldn’t help out there - if Michael hadn’t shown up, 4 members of the SC including Rashid & Eb would’ve likely been wiped out.
It would make more sense if Mab had recently routed the assault on AT & then immediately looks to see what else the BC is doing - she sees the events unfolding around Molly, so engineers the first attack on Pell to get Harry’s attention & set up a portal through which he can get to AT should the need arise (perhaps to get the WC to help since she likely doesn’t trust any other wizard) in the face of another BC assault. - The need for the BC assault team to go through the portal at Pell’s theater - again, I’m not sure why a skilled sorcerer like Namshiel would need this, especially if he has the help of Maeve.
Harry was able to open a portal to Hades without Hades or anyone else guiding him - he just needed Nic to tell him that Marcone’s vault would do as a like-place in the mortal world, so why would Namshiel need Lily to open such a portal, when Nfected Lea or Maeve could have told the BC? Additionally, why does the portal need to be in Chicago where a Starborn & KotC reside? Why not Canada or Sweden? - What was Mab doing between DB & PG as well as during PG? IIRC, you are in the camp that believes Mab fixed LC during the events of PG. While I’m not against this, in my theory someone from Summer fixes LC.
By your theory, the attack happens during DB but Mab wins & spends the next few months (nearly a year in mortal time) alone at a busted up AT without any defenses. At the beginning of PG, she ‘re-opens’ the Pell’s theater portal & sends across a Fetch to assault Pell while Nelson is in the bathroom. The purpose of this is to lay a trap for the traitor within Winter?
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The analogy between Marcone's vault and Pell's theater work's this way for me. Without Marcone's vault Harry couldn't get to Hade's realm period. I would assume, were I Jim and I was writing it, that accessing the vicinity of Arctis Tor would be similar in nature in terms of difficulty,to the difficulty in accessing Hades. So once the theater was prepped anyone could open the portal, but without the theater no human could. YMMV. That's how I envision it.
Your third point. I don't suggest that it happened this way in Jim's mind, but think of a slow zone surrounding Arctis Tor where time slows down. So if your coming to Arctis Tor to attack, time will slow for you while Mab in her fortress proceeds at normal time. She will appear to you to be racing, while to her you will look like a turtle. It's almost a perfect defense.
However if access to Arctis Tor is restricted and Mab ends up in control of the crossing point at Pell's theater than you don't need a guard at all, you always have time to yell for help. The assault on Pell appears to have accomplished precisely one thing. It kept him away from his theater and kept it closed during the events of Proven Guilty. As to why Mab might do something like that, any theory is as good as mine, since I don't have a coherent one. WOJ is that Mab had Molly brought to the fortress. Obviously she wanted Harry there and she has shown a willingness to accept collateral damage to accomplish her goals. Other than that I'm more or less clueless.
I don't think I covered all your points, however I am currently out of ideas. Thanks for the back and forth. It helps me quite a bit.
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@morriswalters
Agreed, these discussions help me quite a bit too. I suppose we’ll have to wait till Peace Talks to see if any new info is given about PG (although I suspect we’ll have to wait till MM).
I disagree about the point regarding Harry being unable to get to Hades without Marcone’s vault. I’m sure other places around the world exist, but perhaps they are even harder to break into than Marcone’s vault. Hades explicitly says that the point of his hoarding divine weapons is not to keep them away from people, but rather to force the ones who come there to show their determination & skill so that at least they would be able to use the weapons properly. Hades doesn’t mind people trying to enter his demesne, so he’s not actively trying to hide it.
Besides, in SG Marcone was in on the con, so I always assumed that Marcone’s place was set up so that team Mab (which Marcone is on in SG) would control the point of egress in case Harry failed. Since Mab cannot attack Nic without breaking her word, Marcone is the hedge - he has a legitimate gripe about Nic breaking into his bank & so can hit Nic without anything reflecting poorly on Mab.
Separately, there are other reasons why Marcone was used in SG.
- Marcone & Nic had squabbled a couple of times previously with Marcone just about coming out on top (the Shroud & being able to get away in SmF). Nic was likely eager to hit Marcone again & get the better of him this time
- There have been parallels drawn a couple of times between Marcone & Hades as ‘reluctant but honorable lords of the Underworld’. Perhaps this is foreshadowing greater things for Marcone in the future. After all, Odin, Mab & Hades are helping him out now
- In the DV, power needs to have purpose. If Marcone is to become more powerful, he must have greater purpose. By making him the mortal world’s supernatural banker, Mab et al are elevating Marcone in terms of stature & power.
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I disagree about the point regarding Harry being unable to get to Hades without Marcone’s vault. I’m sure other places around the world exist.
I'm pretty sure Morris's point is simply that Harry couldn't enter Hades at the Gate of Fire from just any place. It had to be Marcone's vault or a place almost exactly like it owned by a lord of the underworld. There's a good chance it was the only place in the world like it.
As to the number of bones, the bulk of them might have nothing to do with the attack on Arctis Tor. Winter is not a fun place. I believe the bones are connected to the assault, just raising the point that it's not hard to imagine that Arctis Tor would have a lot of bones around anyway.
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I'm pretty sure Morris's point is simply that Harry couldn't enter Hades at the Gate of Fire from just any place. It had to be Marcone's vault or a place almost exactly like it owned by a lord of the underworld. There's a good chance it was the only place in the world like it.
I disagree - Marcone’s place was specially made to be the easiest place for Nic & Co. to break into. In SG, it takes them all of 2-3 chapters to break in. This was of course for Mab’s con to work. Surely Hades’ demesne wasn’t cordoned off from the mortal world for centuries until Marcone’s bank was built...
As to the number of bones, the bulk of them might have nothing to do with the attack on Arctis Tor. Winter is not a fun place. I believe the bones are connected to the assault, just raising the point that it's not hard to imagine that Arctis Tor would have a lot of bones around anyway.
We know this isn’t the case from CD when Harry is in AT. Also the sheer number of bones & the way they were placed clearly shows a brutal fight, especially since a lot of the bones were melted by hellfire.
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Surely Hades’ demesne wasn’t cordoned off from the mortal world for centuries until Marcone’s bank was built...
No, you only had to die to get in. :)
One would assume that since Nic had knowledge of the three trials that it wasn't designed to be impossible to get in, merely difficult.
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I’d be really curious to see how a necro/ectomancer would’ve handled the Blood Gate. Given that Hades is likely a necromancer himself, I’m fairly certain there’s a way to pass it without actually killing a member of your coterie.
Maybe Nic should’ve hired Ghost Harry from GS instead of WK Harry ;/)
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We know this isn’t the case from CD when Harry is in AT. Also the sheer number of bones & the way they were placed clearly shows a brutal fight, especially since a lot of the bones were melted by hellfire.
Harry isn't outside in CD. He is inside.
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... especially since a lot of the bones were melted by hellfire.
IIRC, Harry noted several different kinds of damage to the bones, presumably showing several different spellcasters with different kinds of magic.
But "melted' wouldn't be the hellfire kind of damage: blackened, charred/cracking, and even burning up, is fire damage to bone. Unless Mab had defenders with bones made of metal...
Also I gotta presume that (1) plenty of the attackers bones are mixed in (it wasn't likely to be a 1-sided battle!) And (2) nothing showing heat/fire damage was likely to be the action of any WinterFae.
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@Bad Alias
True, but given how clean & minimalist the interiors are described as being (except for the replica of Harry’s apt), it seems unlikely that thousands of bones routinely clutter the passageways of AT.
Combined with the fact that the entry gates had been blown apart, hellfire & acid pitted the walls & Mab’s personal troll guards’ remains are found defending her retreat in the courtyard, I find your point unlikely (although I get you’re playing devils advocate).
@g33k
Absolutely, if the theory that this was a BC attack is correct, I would assume that there would be numerous spellcasters of different backgrounds - spearheaded by Namshiel who was either juiced up or is Nfected & able to let loose the power of his Fallen once in a while.
One the open questions is why didn’t the attackers breach the spire in the courtyard where Molly, Lea & the Wellspring are? Despite fighting a campaign to get to the spire, it is seemingly untouched when Harry gets there.
My theory is that either Uriel intervenes since the Nfected Fallen is letting loose, or if Namshiel has been juiced, perhaps Mab was able to kill the wielder but not capture the coin, bringing down the attackers’ biggest gun.
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I think it's a reasonable assumption that Namshiel, if involved in the attack, survived. When its host is killed in Small Favor, Nic muses that at least Tessa had lost her sorcery teacher, and this was after he found out that the Coins had been taken from Harry. There must be some mitigating factor that limits how quickly the Fallen can use their hosts. I don't think it'd be particularly hard to find a new Holder for a Coin, so I therefore assume it takes time for the Fallen to dominate their Holders (Thornyboy seemed like one of those Denarians who preferred to be always shifted, implying Domination rather than Partnership).
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Thorned Namshiel was the horse, I don't know which fallen was the rider. And it was him at Arctis Tor, unless this passage from Small Favor is BS.
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorcerer around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my own eyelashes.
“There are others yet who will pay for what they have done,”
And by the end of Skin Game three more had, Maeve, the Reds and Nicodemus. There is probably someone else.
The point about only seeing the courtyard is that you don't know who was in the castle when Harry got there. There could have been an army. Or no one.
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Thorned Namshiel was the Fallen, not the host.
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@Kindler
I took Nic’s comment regarding Tessa losing her sorcery teacher to mean that Team Harry had Namshiel’s coin - Tessa wasn’t able to escape with it, therefore it wouldn’t be at her disposal.
Since Namshiel is referred to by his Fallen name & not that of his host, it shouldn’t be a stretch to assume that the Fallen goes through mortal host bodies pretty quickly - especially since he’s part of Tessa’s coterie, which is known to do so (excepting her & Rosanna of course). It wouldn’t surprise me if his host burned out/ died in PG (but coin was whisked away) but the Fallen was up & running by SmF in a new one.
@morriswalters
That is true, although the fact that the central spire in the courtyard which contained the Wellspring was untouched - there were no markings of hellfire or acid on the walls or base - is remarkable. Either this was the only piece of rebuilding Mab did, or some event forced the attackers to stop/ divert/ retreat.
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Am I missing something? Do any other of the Fallen have a first name, and if they do, why?
@kbrizzle
It's the way Mab wants it to be. Maybe she left it that way so Harry could see it. It makes sense if you perceive it the way I do, which is Mab sitting at the center of her web, feeling it move as the people crawl around on it as her enemies plot against her. She's pretty much been under attack, however covertly, since Lea accepted the atheme.
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@Kindler: Michael had Thorned Namshiel's coin, so it was on the helicopter. I think Nic knew that.
@Morris: Namshiel is covered in thorns, so he/she is called "Thorned" Namshiel. It isn't really his name, and it might just be by Harry like "Shaggy Feathers"; I'm not sure on that second point.
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... although the fact that the central spire in the courtyard which contained the Wellspring was untouched - there were no markings of hellfire or acid on the walls or base - is remarkable. Either this was the only piece of rebuilding Mab did, or some event forced the attackers to stop/ divert/ retreat.
Honestly, I still think Mab suckered the BC/Namshiel/whoever. The queen of Winter sitting at the Wellspring... She could have shut them down any time she wanted.
She gave a carefully staged resistance, based upon the attackers' belief that Mab was off at the battle-front shaping up vs. Summer.
She spent the defenders on exposing the actual identities of the attackers, so she could know who she needed to burn in payback.
Once she knew her targets, she asserted herself; and they retreated post-haste. Then she set the stage for Harry & Charity.
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@morriswalters
It was a comment about the naming convention of the Fallen - some are referred to by their host (Nic, Deedee, Tessa), others by their Fallen’s name (Magog, Ursiel, Urumviel).
@g33k
I dunno, I still have difficulty buying that she set things up in the way they happened. It seems likely to me that while was she waiting for an attack of some sort, she didn’t expect to be sucker-punched in the manner she was. The assault, sending her troops to Summer etc. all negatively impacted her allies (Venatori & WC) for nearly a year, allowing the Ramps/ BC to do a fair amount of damage.
In many ways, Mab sitting almost alone in a bombed out stronghold, betrayed, while thousands of her personal troops lie dead mirrors where the White Council is at this point - their allies are no longer helping them (Venatori have been attacked severely & the Fae are in a stalemate with each other), hundreds of wardens/ thousands of civilians have died & they have been betrayed (Cairo attacks etc).
If you notice, the Ramps/ BC are generally winning the war until PG - after PG, the Ramps/ BC start losing - so PG is an important turning point in the war. I think this is where Mab & the WC fully realize they are fighting a supranational conspiracy amongst the Signatories (Black Council), not just the war in front of their eyes.
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Mab doesn't hit bottom until after the events of Proven Guilty. The only thing that I can see that justifies her behavior in PG, is that she is hunting traitors in Faerie. She knows Lea is nemfected. And she must think that Aurora was as well. What she can't know is how deep the problem goes.
Look at where the situation stands in retrospect. Three of the most powerful beings in Faerie are compromised. Maeve, Lea and the Winter Knight. So she stands alone, even if she doesn't know it yet. And she has had to go to war with Titania because Aurora either was insane on nemfected.
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Look at where the situation stands in retrospect. Three of the most powerful beings in Faerie are compromised. Maeve, Lea and the Winter Knight. So she stands alone, even if she doesn't know it yet. And she has had to go to war with Titania because Aurora either was insane on nemfected.
This is why I’d argue that Mab does hit rock bottom in PG - she is completely bereft of her allies within Winter (Maeve, Lea, no WK); the WC is fighting a war for survival with little bandwidth & traitors within; Titania is uninterested & Lily is marching to Maeve’s tune.
Her stronghold has been openly breached, maybe not the Wellspring but the gates to her palace literally don’t exist anymore - they’ve been blown apart. Maeve is going around calling her mad. Her only real ‘ally’ is Harry, who doesn’t care for her too much.
All of this changes after PG. In SmF, she picks up Marcone as another ally & gets revenge on Namshiel/ other Denarians. And then again in Changes, CD & SG.
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Proven Guilty will work. The next story involving Mab is Changes and by that point she has Lea and will get Harry, so her star is rising again. But her weakness at the time of PG is the basis of my WAG.
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Point of order: the next Mab story is Small Favor, not Changes. That's when she's so furious she can't speak with her own mouth anymore. In other words, by Small Favor she knows how vulnerable her position is, and is working in concert with Uriel if not exactly on his side. Lea does not appear to be free yet; her next legit appearance is indeed in Changes. Not sure how that impacts things, just wanted to bring it up.
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You are correct. I shouldn't post when I'm tired.