31
DF Reference Collection / Re: He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
« on: June 18, 2015, 06:11:40 PM »
I think you need to find a public version of your spoiler image.
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32
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 27, 2015, 06:52:25 PM »Quote
Kringle says something to the effect of "Before Halloween, I'm not Santa; afterwards, I am." Maybe his Mantle is dependent on when in the year it is?
This remark was made as a complaint about how early Christmas Season has begun.
33
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 24, 2015, 04:38:59 PM »Quote
Nothing about Maeve’s actions in the book indicated her infection.
Maeve's interactions at Mac's Pub is where it became apparent. She gave a straight answer.
34
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 23, 2015, 11:46:45 PM »
dspringer1,
The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor. If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance. If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.
The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor. If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance. If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.
35
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 23, 2015, 10:45:40 PM »
• Why did Mab prohibit Winter from going to war with the Red Court when they attacked through winter lands in Dead Beat?
Mab found out that Lea was infected but concluded she was not the only creature that was a problem in the Winter Court. She was concerned that with the imbalance of power between Summer and Winter that she needed to be extra careful. On top of that, she was concerned that Summer might be compromised as well.
• Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.
• Who attacked Arctis Tor?
The Outsider backed forces.
• Why attack Arctis Tor?
To try to get Molly and prevent Mab from showing Lea to Harry.
• What did Harry have to do with the above?
This is the first time that he was shown somebody that was infected in an obvious manner. He had met infected Maeve but even Mab was not sure at that point.
Mab found out that Lea was infected but concluded she was not the only creature that was a problem in the Winter Court. She was concerned that with the imbalance of power between Summer and Winter that she needed to be extra careful. On top of that, she was concerned that Summer might be compromised as well.
• Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.
• Who attacked Arctis Tor?
The Outsider backed forces.
• Why attack Arctis Tor?
To try to get Molly and prevent Mab from showing Lea to Harry.
• What did Harry have to do with the above?
This is the first time that he was shown somebody that was infected in an obvious manner. He had met infected Maeve but even Mab was not sure at that point.
36
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 21, 2015, 09:26:20 PM »
I know you all ignored my answers two pages ago, but I thought I should point out that this entire topic was discussed in Small Favor by Mab and Harry. I suggest listening to it.
37
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 20, 2015, 11:28:51 PM »
SF is further from NY than Olympia is according to the distance calculators I have found
38
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 18, 2015, 05:28:01 AM »
Okay here we go...my theory of why Mab kidnaps Molly leading to who attacks Arctis Tor and why...
Let's start with the notion of why kidnap Molly if it is Mab. Mab has at least 3 purposes:
- Show Lloyd Slate to Harry to try to entice him to take up the Winter Mantle as a Mercy
- Show Lea to get him to introduce him to Nemesis obliquely
- And most importantly get Nemesis to reveal traitors within the Winter Court (This is the primary Mission)
So, Molly is kidnapped to bring Harry to Arctis Tor to show him these things. It all goes back to the attacks at Splattercon!!! These attacks have to look natural as part of the workings of Mab. She does not know who to trust so tells nobody about her plan. That is why the attacks at Splattercon!!! are so violent. Mab knows that this will draw Harry. The fact that Molly involves Harry first is a bonus, not part of the plan. Magical beings killing people in Chicago means Harry is showing up. This is the inducement to attach Harry to this program. Now, you need to recall that according to our timelines there are about 4 years between SK and PG. That means there is plenty of time to keep tabs on Harry and learn about Molly's magic. I think this plan is long in coming because Madrigal Raith was part of Splattercon!!!'s agenda for about 1 year. This timeline and the knowledge of Molly's Magic gives Mab time to prepare.
Molly is taken and brought to Arctis Tor. Now, remember right after that Harry is attacked by the Scarecrow. The attack occurs AFTER Harry gets out of Splattercon!!! having beaten the one Fetch that stayed at the event. The other Fetches (including the Scarecrow) are part of the kidnapping. But then the Scarecrow attacks Harry. The reason for this is to keep Harry out of events as they progress and reveals the Scarecrow as an agent of Nemesis potentially unwittingly (will come to this at the end).
Once Harry is free, the forces of Nemesis realize that Harry is going to get to AT to rescue Molly. So, they attack AT with a LOT. In PG, it says that the Winter Defenders were killed by Fire done with such power that Harry could not have done it. So maybe Namschiel, but maybe more - a lot more. Mab lets them win through, and I propose this as a test to Harry. The bulk of the Nemesis backing force goes away (probably because they believe they are no longer needed here - maybe help the Red Court?). Given the small size of Harry's force, nobody sees the need for a big group to kill him.
Harry wins through killing the Scarecrow which scatters the rest of the Fetches (who probably get commanded to run away by Mab once the Scarecrow is dead).
A whole LOT of things come from this that are less obvious: Harry has his first talk with Eb about the Black Council near the end and will eventually see that Fae - including a very senior one like Lea can be affected.
The biggie for this is Mab finds out that Maeve is a traitor. I am not clear if this comes from her meeting with Lily and Harry at Macs OR by giving orders to the Scarecrow to kill Harry (this is my indirect theory on why the Scarecrow attacked Harry). 2 books later in Small Favor if you recall Mab is no longer able to speak without hurting people. We find out later this is because she has uncovered Maeve and infected by Nemesis. It is these events that cause Mab to find out that Maeve is infected.
So, again why does Mab do things this way? The whole method is to look like something Mab would do or what people think Mab would do. No place in the novel does anyone doubt that Mab could be behind the kidnapping and murders. She needed to bring in a force she thinks she can trust to force the hand of Nemesis - namely Harry. She uses Rashid as a messanger as she sees him as trustworthy as well. The entire way of getting Harry to AT involves beings outside of Faerie. Think about it, outside of battle and talks with the Summer/Winter Ladies and Summer Knight there are no Faeries in this conversation. This is a dangerous plan for all involved, but that never bothers Mab.
In many ways, this means that there are echoes that come from this attack through Changes, CD and even SG.
Let's start with the notion of why kidnap Molly if it is Mab. Mab has at least 3 purposes:
- Show Lloyd Slate to Harry to try to entice him to take up the Winter Mantle as a Mercy
- Show Lea to get him to introduce him to Nemesis obliquely
- And most importantly get Nemesis to reveal traitors within the Winter Court (This is the primary Mission)
So, Molly is kidnapped to bring Harry to Arctis Tor to show him these things. It all goes back to the attacks at Splattercon!!! These attacks have to look natural as part of the workings of Mab. She does not know who to trust so tells nobody about her plan. That is why the attacks at Splattercon!!! are so violent. Mab knows that this will draw Harry. The fact that Molly involves Harry first is a bonus, not part of the plan. Magical beings killing people in Chicago means Harry is showing up. This is the inducement to attach Harry to this program. Now, you need to recall that according to our timelines there are about 4 years between SK and PG. That means there is plenty of time to keep tabs on Harry and learn about Molly's magic. I think this plan is long in coming because Madrigal Raith was part of Splattercon!!!'s agenda for about 1 year. This timeline and the knowledge of Molly's Magic gives Mab time to prepare.
Molly is taken and brought to Arctis Tor. Now, remember right after that Harry is attacked by the Scarecrow. The attack occurs AFTER Harry gets out of Splattercon!!! having beaten the one Fetch that stayed at the event. The other Fetches (including the Scarecrow) are part of the kidnapping. But then the Scarecrow attacks Harry. The reason for this is to keep Harry out of events as they progress and reveals the Scarecrow as an agent of Nemesis potentially unwittingly (will come to this at the end).
Once Harry is free, the forces of Nemesis realize that Harry is going to get to AT to rescue Molly. So, they attack AT with a LOT. In PG, it says that the Winter Defenders were killed by Fire done with such power that Harry could not have done it. So maybe Namschiel, but maybe more - a lot more. Mab lets them win through, and I propose this as a test to Harry. The bulk of the Nemesis backing force goes away (probably because they believe they are no longer needed here - maybe help the Red Court?). Given the small size of Harry's force, nobody sees the need for a big group to kill him.
Harry wins through killing the Scarecrow which scatters the rest of the Fetches (who probably get commanded to run away by Mab once the Scarecrow is dead).
A whole LOT of things come from this that are less obvious: Harry has his first talk with Eb about the Black Council near the end and will eventually see that Fae - including a very senior one like Lea can be affected.
The biggie for this is Mab finds out that Maeve is a traitor. I am not clear if this comes from her meeting with Lily and Harry at Macs OR by giving orders to the Scarecrow to kill Harry (this is my indirect theory on why the Scarecrow attacked Harry). 2 books later in Small Favor if you recall Mab is no longer able to speak without hurting people. We find out later this is because she has uncovered Maeve and infected by Nemesis. It is these events that cause Mab to find out that Maeve is infected.
So, again why does Mab do things this way? The whole method is to look like something Mab would do or what people think Mab would do. No place in the novel does anyone doubt that Mab could be behind the kidnapping and murders. She needed to bring in a force she thinks she can trust to force the hand of Nemesis - namely Harry. She uses Rashid as a messanger as she sees him as trustworthy as well. The entire way of getting Harry to AT involves beings outside of Faerie. Think about it, outside of battle and talks with the Summer/Winter Ladies and Summer Knight there are no Faeries in this conversation. This is a dangerous plan for all involved, but that never bothers Mab.
In many ways, this means that there are echoes that come from this attack through Changes, CD and even SG.
39
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 17, 2015, 02:33:29 AM »
So back to the primary topic of this thread, I just finished my re-read of PG. Beyond the standard mysteries, I think I need to understand the Scarecrow a lot more. He has 3 roles in the book:
1 - The first mention is when he attacks Harry et al after Harry has freed himself from Madrigal Raith.
2 - The second mention is the recount by Daniel in the attack on the Carpenter House (must have happened before the attack on Harry - but Harry is occupied at the time).
3 - The third mention is when he is found at the top of Arctus Tor and he battles with Harry/Charity.
Okay so here is the problem. If we assume Mab sends the kidnapping fetches, then why attack Harry? It looks from the outside that the primary purpose of the kidnapping is to draw Harry to Arctus Tor. But if so, why not give Harry a clear path to AT? Delaying tactic? If we assume that Mab does not send the kidnapping fetches, then who do the fetches that attack Harry et al in AT belong to? Why would they not go after one of Mab's enemies? On top of that the Scarecrow declares itself loyal to Mab - not that this is definitive. I think this is the crucible of the answer to what happened at AT.
One other problem with the attack on Harry. Madrigal Raith says he was booked at Splattercon!!! for a year prior to the actual convention. Harry concludes that Glau is attacked first to shut him up. That would make Glau the reason that Madrigal gets booked at Splattercon!!! So, why would Mab want Glau dead? Mab seems to put many obstacles in the way of recovering Molly, but seems approving of his actual recovery.
So, when I come up with a resolution for all this...I will post again.
1 - The first mention is when he attacks Harry et al after Harry has freed himself from Madrigal Raith.
2 - The second mention is the recount by Daniel in the attack on the Carpenter House (must have happened before the attack on Harry - but Harry is occupied at the time).
3 - The third mention is when he is found at the top of Arctus Tor and he battles with Harry/Charity.
Okay so here is the problem. If we assume Mab sends the kidnapping fetches, then why attack Harry? It looks from the outside that the primary purpose of the kidnapping is to draw Harry to Arctus Tor. But if so, why not give Harry a clear path to AT? Delaying tactic? If we assume that Mab does not send the kidnapping fetches, then who do the fetches that attack Harry et al in AT belong to? Why would they not go after one of Mab's enemies? On top of that the Scarecrow declares itself loyal to Mab - not that this is definitive. I think this is the crucible of the answer to what happened at AT.
One other problem with the attack on Harry. Madrigal Raith says he was booked at Splattercon!!! for a year prior to the actual convention. Harry concludes that Glau is attacked first to shut him up. That would make Glau the reason that Madrigal gets booked at Splattercon!!! So, why would Mab want Glau dead? Mab seems to put many obstacles in the way of recovering Molly, but seems approving of his actual recovery.
So, when I come up with a resolution for all this...I will post again.
40
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 15, 2015, 08:13:16 PM »Thanks knnn! More thinking to do on my part.
But I do want to point out something about that WoJ. It is not as absolute as we think. If you look at the entire post by Jim, he is actually posting a hypothetical about how we should think about such mysteries. Clearly, this is a case where this in an intentional event. All I can say is that just like Elegant's post, that the WoJ is absolute that Mab is behind the kidnapping. But I will definitely need to think through a viable Mab based alternative.
Secondly, the whole...who cast the ward at Splattercon!!! adds to this.
41
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 15, 2015, 06:16:12 PM »Quote
I like your interpretation of events, but you still run into the old WoJ that Mab had Molly brought to AT. Would your theory still work if Maeve's plan was to kill Molly outright and Mab pulled her to AT to protect her?
knnn,
Man that is a tough one. Because no I can not reconcile that in my mind. But you have opened my eyes to something I think I missed. The Fetches crossed the Carpenter's Threshold to take away Molly. Which means that they could not mean her harm or were invited. The only way I get around that is the inadvertent summoning allowing that to happen. If I make an assumption that it is just they meant no harm, then I can get there. Until Daniel gets hurt. Which I might be able to explain as a violation of guest rights by Daniel attacking them. Still it is REALLY hard to get to.
So, I just re-listened to the part where Bob and Harry are talking about defending the Hotel. If we make the same assumption set that they made, then I still don't see Molly as the summoner. Not that she did not have the power, but I don't see her having the knowledge. This leads to the possibility is that Molly was tagged by Mab as the beacon AND sent the Fetches.
The thing I don't like about this possibility is Old Man Pell. Hurting him seems completely out of character with the rest of the actions. But if I say it is required, then the Fetches expected to take Molly at Splattercon!!! (sorry I forgot the exclamation points last post). I think I am stuck at the moment until I listen to more.
42
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 14, 2015, 08:39:15 PM »
Peregrine,
No better place to frame Mab than AT. And remember, I have Eldest Fetch killing Molly under orders. So Mab does not do the killing. The best part is you have Lea right there to blame Mab. Now Harry may not like Lea but he thinks at that point that she can not lie. So, if Lea says "Mab orders Molly killed". You don't think Harry will believe that?
Harry fails to rescue Molly...you can't imagine that would make them less close? Charity for sure would rail against Harry forever. Michael would be pushed by her to move away from Harry.
No better place to frame Mab than AT. And remember, I have Eldest Fetch killing Molly under orders. So Mab does not do the killing. The best part is you have Lea right there to blame Mab. Now Harry may not like Lea but he thinks at that point that she can not lie. So, if Lea says "Mab orders Molly killed". You don't think Harry will believe that?
Harry fails to rescue Molly...you can't imagine that would make them less close? Charity for sure would rail against Harry forever. Michael would be pushed by her to move away from Harry.
43
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 14, 2015, 08:09:24 PM »
So I sat here over the last 2 days and am getting ready for another re-read of PG. Going into that, I want propose my theory.
First to answer the questions from the OP: AT was attacked by forces aligned with the Outsiders for the purpose of driving a wedge between Harry and Mab.
My theory in a bit more detail.
I am of the view that there is a lot of Fog of War in the DF. I think that a lot less is known about characters as they enter the story by our main actors than we often assume. In this case, Molly is a target of opportunity. Her magic is noticed by some agent of the Outsiders (and I have trouble organizing them) and a trap is laid around Splattercon. The idea is to kill Molly at AT and have Lea be the only being there to talk about what happens. Lea will claim that Mab did the killing or that Mab ordered Lea to kill Molly.
From there we have a kidnapping plot around Splattercon which goes rather badly for the Outsider forces. Eventually they do succeed and take Molly. Now, in my model Mab is occupied and Maeve is the highest level Winter Court member around. However it is done, Maeve betrays the defenders of AT and the battle is lost. Who is in the attacking forces does not matter too much, but it is headed by infected characters - Maeve, Eldest Fetch and a Denarian (presumably Thorned Namschiel). The idea is to kill all the defenders so that there is nobody to be a witness to future events. Eldest Fetch is designated to kill Molly. This would be done to have Harry see a senior member of the Winter Court do the killing. That is why Molly is not killed off screen.
In typical Harry fashion, he overcomes the Scarecrow and wins the day. At the same point (in a bit of confusion), Lea's infection is revealed to Harry. Mab assists Team Harry's exit via time manipulation (slowing the pursuers) and winks at him to show Harry that she has seen what he has done and approves of it.
So, I want to point out here what is supposed to happen again from the Outsider side's perspective. Molly is killed, hurting Harry's relationship with Michael. On top of that, Molly's death would be placed squarely at the feet of the Winter Court. Just FYI, this might drive Harry to take up the Coin and take him out of Mab's WK list forever. Molly's death at AT would have definitely put an end to any potential Mab/Harry hookup. Imagine the following line:
Lea: "Dear Child, mine Queen has gone Mab. She has killed your friend's daughter and imprisoned me to keep me from warning you. Maeve can help you protect your friends. Seek her out and tell her we spoke."
Edit: My view is this is the place and time where Mab found out that Maeve was infected.
First to answer the questions from the OP: AT was attacked by forces aligned with the Outsiders for the purpose of driving a wedge between Harry and Mab.
My theory in a bit more detail.
I am of the view that there is a lot of Fog of War in the DF. I think that a lot less is known about characters as they enter the story by our main actors than we often assume. In this case, Molly is a target of opportunity. Her magic is noticed by some agent of the Outsiders (and I have trouble organizing them) and a trap is laid around Splattercon. The idea is to kill Molly at AT and have Lea be the only being there to talk about what happens. Lea will claim that Mab did the killing or that Mab ordered Lea to kill Molly.
From there we have a kidnapping plot around Splattercon which goes rather badly for the Outsider forces. Eventually they do succeed and take Molly. Now, in my model Mab is occupied and Maeve is the highest level Winter Court member around. However it is done, Maeve betrays the defenders of AT and the battle is lost. Who is in the attacking forces does not matter too much, but it is headed by infected characters - Maeve, Eldest Fetch and a Denarian (presumably Thorned Namschiel). The idea is to kill all the defenders so that there is nobody to be a witness to future events. Eldest Fetch is designated to kill Molly. This would be done to have Harry see a senior member of the Winter Court do the killing. That is why Molly is not killed off screen.
In typical Harry fashion, he overcomes the Scarecrow and wins the day. At the same point (in a bit of confusion), Lea's infection is revealed to Harry. Mab assists Team Harry's exit via time manipulation (slowing the pursuers) and winks at him to show Harry that she has seen what he has done and approves of it.
So, I want to point out here what is supposed to happen again from the Outsider side's perspective. Molly is killed, hurting Harry's relationship with Michael. On top of that, Molly's death would be placed squarely at the feet of the Winter Court. Just FYI, this might drive Harry to take up the Coin and take him out of Mab's WK list forever. Molly's death at AT would have definitely put an end to any potential Mab/Harry hookup. Imagine the following line:
Lea: "Dear Child, mine Queen has gone Mab. She has killed your friend's daughter and imprisoned me to keep me from warning you. Maeve can help you protect your friends. Seek her out and tell her we spoke."
Edit: My view is this is the place and time where Mab found out that Maeve was infected.
44
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 14, 2015, 06:39:30 PM »
To answer, I don't know. The whole AT scenario doesn't make sense to me. I think of Harry showing up and getting Molly only seeing one Lea and Eldest Fetch. Now Harry is retreating and then an entire hunting force shows up? So it's okay for only infected Winter Fae to be there?
So, I am in the mood to ignore what Harry thinks and say how could that situation evolve. If I go back to Mab only being able to speak through Grimalkin, is that her being mad about Lea or Maeve? Maybe she doesn't know about Maeve until the attack on AT? I am just confused.
So, I am in the mood to ignore what Harry thinks and say how could that situation evolve. If I go back to Mab only being able to speak through Grimalkin, is that her being mad about Lea or Maeve? Maybe she doesn't know about Maeve until the attack on AT? I am just confused.
45
DF Reference Collection / Re: Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
« on: February 14, 2015, 04:10:32 AM »
So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It has led me to another question. I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.