Dancing with Mab was like dancing with a shadow. She moved so gracefully, so lightly that had my eyes been closed, I might not have been able to tell that she was there at all. I felt lumbering and clumsy beside her, but managed not to trip over my own feet.
“That was well-done, wizard,” Mab murmured. “No one has lifted a hand to them that way since the days of Tam Lin.”
The woods of Carterhaugh are guarded by Tam Lin, a man who demands payment of all maidens who pass through, in the form of a belonging or their virginity. A maiden named Janet travels to Carterhaugh and picks a rose, causing Tam Lin to appear. He questions her presence, to which she relies that Carterhaugh is rightfully hers. She then travels to her fathers house where she exhibits the early signs of pregnancy, much to the concern of the household. She states that her lover is elven, and then returns to Carterhaugh, once again encountering Tam Lin. He reveals he is not elven, but a mortal captured by the queen of Faeries, and that he may be sacrificied to hell as part of the faerie tithe. He then details how she can save him to be her mate, if she will undergo a trial on Halloween night. She must pull him from his horse as the faeries process through the woods, and hold onto him as he is transformed into various beasts, then plunge him into a well when he turns into a brand of fire. When he regains his own naked shape she must cover him with her green mantle and he will be free. She does all of this, much to the anger of the watching Queen of faeries.
“It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That’s all.” He looked directly at me and said, “Many, many mantles are worn—or discarded—on Halloween night, wizard.”
Calling Lea a 'maiden' is stretching it a bit. ;)I agree with this.
Interesting 'deeper' research into Tam Lin though. My own research was limited to what I could quickly google.
I think that Jim dropped a mention of Tam Lin for two reasons - to show that the most capable knights are independent and piss Mab off and also to show that the mantle can be set aside eventually.
Part of me wants to think Mac is Tam Lin, like many others have speculated on. And in the story in my head, Tam Lin was the WK for the previous WQ, and was freed by his true love on Halloween. Then he had a daughter with his true love, and that daughter later became Mab. Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.
But I also sometimes think Mac is Merlin Emrys, who had a child (Mab) with Nimue. And then his daughter became the WQ. And Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.
Basically, I think Mac is Mab's father, and I'll sell out to any theory that can work that into it.
Oh I hadn't heard the Mac as Tam Lin theory before, I quite like that (not sure I'm buying into him being Mab's dad though ;) )It was Mac's speech about fatherhood, combined with the description of Mab just staring down at Mac in CD, that invoked the father/daughter idea.
Tenuous support for that idea could come from the fact that one of the biggest pieces of dialogue we've ever had from Mac was in response to Harry telling him about Maggie. Since the myth of Tam Lin often features the young woman returning pregnant, maybe in the Dresdenverse this fatherhood was what caused Mac to embark upon discarding the Winter Knight mantle.
Quote from CD: "Something like this will test you like nothing else" Mac said "You're going to find out who you are, Harry. You're going to find out which principles you'll stand by to your death- and which lines you'll cross."
Certainly evokes images of Mac going on some kind of quest to discard the mantle. Food for thought, at least.
It was Mac's speech about fatherhood, combined with the description of Mab just staring down at Mac in CD, that invoked the father/daughter idea.
This is right off the top of my head and I haven't thought out the details but wouldn't Mac/Tam Lin being one of Mab's former lovers (and perhaps the father of one of her daughters) account for that?Well, Mac and Maeve don't show any familiarity in PG when Maeve is in his pub. And he and Sarissa are somewhat comfortable around each other in CD, but I wouldn't say they're overly familiar. And Sarissa doesn't seem that concerned when Maeve shoots him; it was Justine that moved to his side. (queue the Justine=Mab's Daughter conspirators)
Part of me wants to think Mac is Tam Lin, like many others have speculated on. And in the story in my head, Tam Lin was the WK for the previous WQ, and was freed by his true love on Halloween. Then he had a daughter with his true love, and that daughter later became Mab. Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.
It is an interesting theory, Mac being Tam Lin or perhaps Merlin.
But there is a line from CD that makes me wonder if Mac isn't something else entirely. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but Sharkface does call Mac Watcher once or twice. There is a very specific class of being who were referred to as Watchers. The Grigori.
I still prefer the Gregori angle.
There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.
Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering. An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.
Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but weren't the Grigori cast out, as it were, not because of refusing to to get involved, but because they fathered the Nephilim? So, perhaps Mac does indeed have a child out there somewhere.
Slightly TT, so spoilerized, and I apologize if anyone is offended.(click to show/hide)
I still prefer the Gregori angle.
There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.
Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering. An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.
Yeah. I like the Grigori angel... I mean angle too. After all, angels who fell because they liked the world too much, refused to return to the fold and whatnot. They taught humanity many strange arts, such as smithing, warfare, perfume, brewing...
I can't find info on them bringing knowledge of brewing. Could I get a link?
Hmm. Now that you call me on it I can't honestly find where I read it. In retrospect, I think I might've mixed it up with the Egyptian gods and their connections to beer.
Pretend that I didn't say anything.
Hmm. Now that you call me on it I can't honestly find where I read it. In retrospect, I think I might've mixed it up with the Egyptian gods and their connections to beer.
Pretend that I didn't say anything.
I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.
I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.we can't trust OLD WOJ anymore.......even new ones may be false...lol
I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.WoJ was that he's not a Greek God, or a handful of other things. Doesn't mean he's human, just that he's not a small list of non-humans.
WoJ was that he's not a Greek God, or a handful of other things. Doesn't mean he's human, just that he's not a small list of non-humans.I thought there two aspects of the WoJ: 1) he's not a Greek god, etc, and 2) he's mortal.
I thought there two aspects of the WoJ: 1) he's not a Greek god, etc, and 2) he's mortal.
In your spoiler at the top of the page you said the Grigori brought alcohol to humanity. Can I get a link on that?You or someone else mentioned asked someone else about that, and I went to find the page but couldn't find it. I read about the Grigori on a webpage almost a decade ago, so I'm not sure if I'm mis-remembering about the alcohol, the page is gone because I can't find it, or the page was wrong to begin with. I haven't found any other references to it.
"As the floodwaters swelled, Og, king of Bashan, sat himself on one of the rungs of the ark's ladders and swore to Noah and to his sons that he would be their slave forever. What did Noah do? He punched a hole in the ark, and through it he handed out food to Og every day. Og's survival is hinted at in the verse 'Only Og remained of the remnant of the Rephaim' (Deut 3:11)." (From Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliezer 23 as quoted in The Book of Legends edited by Hayim Nahman Bialik.)
"I am giving thy descendants two extra blessings," said Og, chuckling.
He rolled over and over on the ground in great glee and then said:
"When a man shall drink too much of the juice of the wine, then shall he become a beast like the pig, and if then he still continues to drink, he shall behave foolishly like a monkey."
And that is why, unto this day, too much wine makes a man silly.
Mac folded his arms on the bar and looked at me intently and said, in a resonant baritone, “You’ve got to be very careful, Harry.” I looked at him, shocked. He’d . . . used grammar.
“Something like this will test you like nothing else,” Mac said. “You’re going to find out who you are, Harry. You’re going to find out which principles you’ll stand by to your death—and which lines you’ll cross.” He took my empty glass away and said, “You’re heading into the badlands. It’ll be easy to get lost.”
I am aware of Nephilim-Wine connection, but it is a bit tenuous. You need to put a couple of sources together:
1) The bible talks about a King Og (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Og) who, according to some traditions was actually around during the time of the Flood (he hung on to the outside of the Ark, as he was so big).Quote"As the floodwaters swelled, Og, king of Bashan, sat himself on one of the rungs of the ark's ladders and swore to Noah and to his sons that he would be their slave forever. What did Noah do? He punched a hole in the ark, and through it he handed out food to Og every day. Og's survival is hinted at in the verse 'Only Og remained of the remnant of the Rephaim' (Deut 3:11)." (From Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliezer 23 as quoted in The Book of Legends edited by Hayim Nahman Bialik.)
Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.
2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rephaim), a race of giants who lived in ancient times.
3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim#Related_terms) for an initial look. Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).
4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see: Genesis 9:20 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0109.htm#20))
5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god). An example of that is here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jftl/jftl05.htm)Quote"I am giving thy descendants two extra blessings," said Og, chuckling.
He rolled over and over on the ground in great glee and then said:
"When a man shall drink too much of the juice of the wine, then shall he become a beast like the pig, and if then he still continues to drink, he shall behave foolishly like a monkey."
And that is why, unto this day, too much wine makes a man silly.
------------
So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.
Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection. It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink. It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".
I've always liked the 'Mac as Grigori' bit. There are a number of, generally subtle, angelic references around him. One that stood out to me the most was the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.
For reference, most of my understanding and reference for Grigori comes from modest theological study coupled with way too much love of In Nomine. :D
So to recap, the evidence for Mac being a Grigori is:I recall a thread that had alot of information about Grigori being mac...tho I can't remember which thread.
They were known as "Watchers" and Mac was called Watcher.
There are subtle angelic references around him like the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.
The Grigori disobeyed God because they mated with human women and fathered the Nephilim. This fits with Macs speech to Harry in Changes:
There is a link between Grigori and wine:
Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.
2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rephaim), a race of giants who lived in ancient times.
3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim#Related_terms) for an initial look. Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).
4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see: Genesis 9:20 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0109.htm#20))
5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god). An example of that is here (http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jftl/jftl05.htm)
------------
So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.
Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection. It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink. It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".
Is that everything so far? Also:
Can you recall any more references?